Re: Constellation on Linux

[Jerry Daniels]

Thanks, Rishi!

Jerry

Buy Constellation from Runtime Revolution!
http://revstudio.runrev.com/section/revselect/constellation/



On Apr 11, 2006, at 8:43 PM, Rishi Viner wrote:




On 4/6/06, Jerry Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Seamus,

Not on Linux yet. We are working on a major upgrade to the product
line and Linux support and compatibility is one of our goals.


Jerry,

Just so you know, you'll have another customer here, once you get  
the Linux

version sorted. Cheers,

--
Rishi Viner
--
PUREDATA
Australia

www.puredata.com.au
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Rishi Viner]

> On 4/6/06, Jerry Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Seamus,
> >
> > Not on Linux yet. We are working on a major upgrade to the product
> > line and Linux support and compatibility is one of our goals.

Jerry, 

Just so you know, you'll have another customer here, once you get the Linux 
version sorted. Cheers,

-- 
Rishi Viner
--
PUREDATA
Australia

www.puredata.com.au
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Mark Talluto]

On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:43 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:


Any word/idea on how the current release of Constellation behaves on
2.7under OS X? I've been hesitating to upgrade to
2.7 because of all the "issues" I've read about and I don't really  
*need*

any of the features new in 2.7 for my apps but I'm also by nature a
bleeding-edge guy so I'd shift to 2.7 if I was sure Constellation  
worked

there.



I have been using in on a daily basis in 2.7 and have found it to be  
great!



Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Dan Shafer]

OK, so I take away two messages.

First, 2.7 problems are pretty much confined to Windows, which I don't use
anyway.

Constellation works fine on 2.7.

OK, guys, on your recommendation, I'm switching over to 2.7 for my
day-to-day work (with all 2.6.1 work backed up of course).


On 4/6/06, Stephen Barncard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I second that. Debugging and everything else is getting very stable
> in Constellation. Find a real bug (which are fewer and far between)
> and Jerry is on it within hours sometimes.
>
> I also like how one can customize is a bit, for instance I like to
> use the Rev property inspector instead but use Constellation as my
> editor, along with the other gadgets.
>
> sqb
>
>
> >
> >Dan,
> >
> >I've been using Constellation with 2.7 as my dev environment since
> >2.7 was first released and haven't had any problems.  Constellation
> >works as great as ever.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Trevor DeVore
>
> --
> stephen barncard
> s a n  f r a n c i s c o
> - - -  - - - - - - - - -
> ___
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Stephen Barncard]

I second that. Debugging and everything else is getting very stable 
in Constellation. Find a real bug (which are fewer and far between) 
and Jerry is on it within hours sometimes.


I also like how one can customize is a bit, for instance I like to 
use the Rev property inspector instead but use Constellation as my 
editor, along with the other gadgets.


sqb




Dan,

I've been using Constellation with 2.7 as my dev environment since 
2.7 was first released and haven't had any problems.  Constellation 
works as great as ever.



--
Trevor DeVore


--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Sarah Reichelt]

> Any word/idea on how the current release of Constellation behaves on
> 2.7under OS X? I've been hesitating to upgrade to
> 2.7 because of all the "issues" I've read about and I don't really *need*
> any of the features new in 2.7 for my apps but I'm also by nature a
> bleeding-edge guy so I'd shift to 2.7 if I was sure Constellation worked
> there.

Jump in Dan, the water's lovely :-)

Seriously, I really like 2.7. It feels faster and slicker. Under OS X
I haven't had a crash. Standalones build fine and Constellation works
perfectly.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Jerry Daniels]

Dan,

Yes, Constellation v2.1.5 (released) is fully Rev 2.7 compatible. The  
latest test version on the Basecamp support site also works very well  
with 2.7.


Best,

Jerry Daniels





Artists, Consultants & Developers
http://www.daniels-mara.com/art
http://www.daniels-mara.com/products
http://www.daniels-mara.com

Voice: 512.879.6286
Skype: jerry.daniels



On Apr 6, 2006, at 8:43 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:


Jerry..

Any word/idea on how the current release of Constellation behaves on
2.7under OS X? I've been hesitating to upgrade to
2.7 because of all the "issues" I've read about and I don't really  
*need*

any of the features new in 2.7 for my apps but I'm also by nature a
bleeding-edge guy so I'd shift to 2.7 if I was sure Constellation  
worked

there.



On 4/6/06, Jerry Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Seamus,

Not on Linux yet. We are working on a major upgrade to the product
line and Linux support and compatibility is one of our goals.




--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Trevor DeVore]

On Apr 6, 2006, at 6:43 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:


Jerry..

Any word/idea on how the current release of Constellation behaves on
2.7under OS X? I've been hesitating to upgrade to
2.7 because of all the "issues" I've read about and I don't really  
*need*

any of the features new in 2.7 for my apps but I'm also by nature a
bleeding-edge guy so I'd shift to 2.7 if I was sure Constellation  
worked

there.


Dan,

I've been using Constellation with 2.7 as my dev environment since  
2.7 was first released and haven't had any problems.  Constellation  
works as great as ever.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems - http://www.bluemangolearning.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Dan Shafer]

Jerry..

Any word/idea on how the current release of Constellation behaves on
2.7under OS X? I've been hesitating to upgrade to
2.7 because of all the "issues" I've read about and I don't really *need*
any of the features new in 2.7 for my apps but I'm also by nature a
bleeding-edge guy so I'd shift to 2.7 if I was sure Constellation worked
there.



On 4/6/06, Jerry Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Seamus,
>
> Not on Linux yet. We are working on a major upgrade to the product
> line and Linux support and compatibility is one of our goals.
>
>
>
--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Constellation on Linux

[Jerry Daniels]

Seamus,

Not on Linux yet. We are working on a major upgrade to the product  
line and Linux support and compatibility is one of our goals.


Best,

Jerry Daniels





Artists, Consultants & Developers
http://www.daniels-mara.com/art
http://www.daniels-mara.com/products
http://www.daniels-mara.com

Voice: 512.879.6286
Skype: jerry.daniels



On Apr 5, 2006, at 7:49 AM, seamus wrote:


Hi

Has anybody used Constellation on Linux?

It looks great, but I cannot find any up to date information on  
what it supports.


Thanks

Regards

Seamus Brady
Corvideon Ltd
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Re: Constellation

[Mark Swindell]

Is it ok to talk about Constellation on this list, or should it go to  
the Constellation list?  I'm asking both Rev and Constellation  
people, and anyone else who wants to chime in.


Mark

On Feb 13, 2006, at 2:26 PM, Garrett Hylltun wrote:


http://www.daniels-mara.com/products/


Yeah, bought that last year also.  At the time it made things worse  
for me.  But I haven't run it again yet, so maybe I should give it  
a try again.  :-)


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Re: Constellation: any way to get equivalent of the selectedObject?

[David Bovill]

On 25 Oct 2005, at 05:54, Jerry Daniels wrote:


David,

I am having trouble with the concept of selecting something without  
the user touching it. We could, of course, make a preference for  
this behavior.


? That is the behaviour of Constellation no - select in object  
browser and manipulate - even though object is not selected (and now  
seems not to be selected even if using Rev inspector and only  
Constellation Script editing).


It is just that I want to know what object is indicated (but not  
actually selected if you get my inadequate struggle for terminology  
here) from my own tools / scripts. This would require you to expose  
your code as a nice easy API along the lines of Richards post?




P.S. I hope you get treatment for that virus, too.


Well as you are the infective agent - I'd prefer not :)
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Re: Constellation: any way to get equivalent of the selectedObject?

[Jerry Daniels]

David,

I am having trouble with the concept of selecting something without  
the user touching it. We could, of course, make a preference for this  
behavior.


Best,

Jerry

P.S. I hope you get treatment for that virus, too.

On Oct 20, 2005, at 2:42 PM, David Bovill wrote:



On 20 Oct 2005, at 19:39, Jerry Daniels wrote:


We USED TO select the object during no-click inspection--if the  
pointer was chosen.




Recent version changed this right - kindo of liked it myself - now  
I'm still stuck as i cant



1. The TITLE of Constellation's window has the full name of the  
object you're editing.
2. The TAB that is dedicated to that object has the name of the  
object

3. The PREVIEW (or copy) of the object is shown

We figured after all that, it wasn't necessary to select the  
object during no-click inspection and risk the user forgetting  
that the object WAS selected.


Hope that helps.



Not really - you see I have an object selector / browser like yours  
just not as pretty :) I use it to "indicate an object" and then I  
can create other tools which manipulate the object in some way.


So for a clear example (thinking of writing a viral marketing  
program for you):


1) I create a stack with one button and one field

2) I "select" the "field in my new stack"  in constellation  
property or even script editor - the tab is open


3) I write a script which references the selected object -  
ideally with a line like:


on mouseUp
put the selected_ ConstellationObject into someObject
set the script of someObject to "Jerry Daniels is cool!"
end mouseUp

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Re: Constellation

[Richard Gaskin]

David Bovill wrote:

To do that we  need a plugin for plugins architecture


There is a universal spec to allow plugins to work interoperably in any 
Transcript-based system:




[Spec is mirrored at revJournal:
]

If Jerry doesn't yet have a property-mapping script to take advantage of 
that it wouldn't take but a few minutes to write one for him.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Constellation: any way to get equivalent of the selectedObject?

[David Bovill]

On 20 Oct 2005, at 19:39, Jerry Daniels wrote:

We USED TO select the object during no-click inspection--if the  
pointer was chosen.


Recent version changed this right - kindo of liked it myself - now  
I'm still stuck as i cant


1. The TITLE of Constellation's window has the full name of the  
object you're editing.

2. The TAB that is dedicated to that object has the name of the object
3. The PREVIEW (or copy) of the object is shown

We figured after all that, it wasn't necessary to select the object  
during no-click inspection and risk the user forgetting that the  
object WAS selected.


Hope that helps.


Not really - you see I have an object selector / browser like yours  
just not as pretty :) I use it to "indicate an object" and then I can  
create other tools which manipulate the object in some way.


So for a clear example (thinking of writing a viral marketing program  
for you):


1) I create a stack with one button and one field

2) I "select" the "field in my new stack"  in constellation  
property or even script editor - the tab is open


3) I write a script which references the selected object -  
ideally with a line like:


on mouseUp
put the selected_ ConstellationObject into someObject
set the script of someObject to "Jerry Daniels is cool!"
end mouseUp

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Re: Constellation

[David Bovill]

On 21 Oct 2005, at 03:07, Richard Gaskin wrote:

I'd suggest making it more like an index than a complete  
repository. Many people currently have Rev stacks available on  
their own web-sites, and will wish to continue to do so.  
Duplicating those stacks in some central repository places a  
burden on someone to keep it up to date. And it's easy to run a  
link-checker on an "index", but not easy to run an "is it up to  
date check" on stacks.
So by all means allow stacks to be put into the repository - but  
also allow for the (I suspect more common) case where the stack is  
already available on-line, and only a pointer to it is needed in  
the central place.




I think that's an excellent idea.   Very much like RevNet.


Well exactly like RevNet - no? And RevNet is much more useful as it  
is within the Rev envoronment! So yes - nice simple addition to  
publish these links on a page - but I'd still go on using RevNet.


On 21 Oct 2005, at 02:43, Ben Fisher wrote:

 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the  
Rev

universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of  
tools and

utilities all completely free and open source.


The poitn I think of the original post was to add new functionality  
that supports collaboration on "the same piece of code / cokponent".  
For me this must work within the Rev environment, and should be based  
around subversion (SVN) linked to a structured wiki like Trac or Jira.



I know websites like this
already exist, but it would be so much cooler if there were one
authoritative Rev Source.


Getting the "authoritative " in there is the hard bit - especially  
without RunRev supporting a clear open source componenet strategy  
(along side commercial development of the product). Everyone is  
rolling their won - which the pragmatists say we should roll with -  
for me i am up for shaking this thing up a bit.


Ben - i would propose to you if you are interested to work out this  
code collaboration with a small group of people interested in open  
source collaboration - not the same as free to use stacks or plugins  
developed by a single author.


For me the best would be to work with Mr Daniels Constellation and  
provide open source plugins within that environment. To do that we  
need a plugin for plugins architecture - that is the internal  
workings of Constallation need to be revealed through an API -  
probably custom properties so that other plugins written by the rest  
of us can leverage the great work Jerry has done?





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Re: outliners Re: Constellation

[Charles Hartman]

Now that is interesting news.

Charles Hartman

On Oct 21, 2005, at 8:06 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

Not yet. But the developers and I are meeting next week to discuss  
that very question.


Dan

On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Dick Kriesel wrote:


The AquaMinds site says plug-ins must be Java applets.  Can you  
make a Rev

app appear to be a Java applet?




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Re: outliners Re: Constellation

[Dan Shafer]

Not yet. But the developers and I are meeting next week to discuss  
that very question.


Dan

On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:35 PM, Dick Kriesel wrote:

The AquaMinds site says plug-ins must be Java applets.  Can you  
make a Rev

app appear to be a Java applet?



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Re: outliners Re: Constellation

[Dick Kriesel]

On 10/21/05 3:42 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Naw, if you're on OSX and you're interested in outliners on steroids,
> skip past OmniOutliner (which is certainly a good product) anb get
> the best all-around piece of software on OSX for my money, NoteTaker
> from AquaMinds. That is the most elegant and usable and extensible
> software I've seen in many, many years.

Looks very interesting, Dan, especially if you can write NoteTaker plug-ins
in Rev.

The AquaMinds site says plug-ins must be Java applets.  Can you make a Rev
app appear to be a Java applet?

-- Dick


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Re: Constellation

[Wouter]

Hi,
Some interesting articles about outliners can be found at:

http://www.atpm.com/10.12/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.02/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.03/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.04/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.06/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.08/atpo.shtml
http://www.atpm.com/11.10/atpo.shtml
etc...

Greetings,
Wouter

On 21 Oct 2005, at 21:43, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


What is an outliner?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andre
Garzia
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 3:33 PM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation


On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:



It is a fundamental Truth of the Universe (when you reach my
advanced stage of life you can even afford to pontificate now and
again) that everything takes longer than you think it will even
when you take into account that everything takes longer than you
think it will.




I have told you my theory that if every project takes longer than
imagined than you just go stacking them like domino tiles and hope
that when you finish a easy one they will all be solved in chain
reaction! :-)


jokes apart, I think the best approach to get something done is
1) write a spec, something to guide you, like what problem you're
trying to solve (thats an important question), how should your app
behaves.
2) Adopt modular paradigm like model-view-controller, something to
split GUI from code so that your code will be portable and  
maintainable.

3) Follow deadlines, even if you don't have one, go and create
artificial one with punishments like: if I pass 10 of october without
an alpha version of my new superduper rev game I shall be honor bound
to drink a cup of orange juice with 3 spoons of salt
4) Always research, chances are someone created something similar to
what you're trying to do, see how they did it, learn from others. For
example, I love outliners and am trying to build a little one for
personal use in Rev, I just downloaded everything from MORE to
OmniOutliner and checked... decided I need to learn more :-)

at least this is what my workflow looks... and yes, it still takes
longer than planned.

andre
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Re: outliners Re: Constellation

[Dan Shafer]

Naw, if you're on OSX and you're interested in outliners on steroids,  
skip past OmniOutliner (which is certainly a good product) anb get  
the best all-around piece of software on OSX for my money, NoteTaker  
from AquaMinds. That is the most elegant and usable and extensible  
software I've seen in many, many years.



On Oct 21, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:


Hi There Jonathan,

wikipedia says: An outliner is a special text editor that allows  
the grouping of text in sections that are organized in a tree  
(hierarchy) of concepts, an outline. Outline tools can be used for  
computer programming, collecting or organizing ideas, or project  
management.


Nowadays, outliners can do more than aggregate text, some add full  
multimedia features. Some cool entrypoints are:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliner(wikipedia is a little  
weak on outliners)


http://www.outliners.com/   (this one used to be a cool resource.)

also check omni group homepage, their outliner is modern and very  
very elegant.


Cheers
andre



On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:



What is an outliner?



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~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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outliners Re: Constellation

[Andre Garzia]

Hi There Jonathan,

wikipedia says: An outliner is a special text editor that allows the  
grouping of text in sections that are organized in a tree (hierarchy)  
of concepts, an outline. Outline tools can be used for computer  
programming, collecting or organizing ideas, or project management.


Nowadays, outliners can do more than aggregate text, some add full  
multimedia features. Some cool entrypoints are:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliner(wikipedia is a little weak  
on outliners)


http://www.outliners.com/   (this one used to be a cool resource.)

also check omni group homepage, their outliner is modern and very  
very elegant.


Cheers
andre



On Oct 21, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


What is an outliner?


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Re: Constellation

[Trevor DeVore]

On Oct 21, 2005, at 12:43 PM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


What is an outliner?


The greatest thing ever invented :-)  If you are on OS X you can take  
a look at OmniOutliner:




--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: Constellation

[Lynch, Jonathan]

What is an outliner?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andre
Garzia
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 3:33 PM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation


On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

> It is a fundamental Truth of the Universe (when you reach my  
> advanced stage of life you can even afford to pontificate now and  
> again) that everything takes longer than you think it will even  
> when you take into account that everything takes longer than you  
> think it will.
>

I have told you my theory that if every project takes longer than  
imagined than you just go stacking them like domino tiles and hope  
that when you finish a easy one they will all be solved in chain  
reaction! :-)


jokes apart, I think the best approach to get something done is
1) write a spec, something to guide you, like what problem you're  
trying to solve (thats an important question), how should your app  
behaves.
2) Adopt modular paradigm like model-view-controller, something to  
split GUI from code so that your code will be portable and maintainable.
3) Follow deadlines, even if you don't have one, go and create  
artificial one with punishments like: if I pass 10 of october without  
an alpha version of my new superduper rev game I shall be honor bound  
to drink a cup of orange juice with 3 spoons of salt
4) Always research, chances are someone created something similar to  
what you're trying to do, see how they did it, learn from others. For  
example, I love outliners and am trying to build a little one for  
personal use in Rev, I just downloaded everything from MORE to  
OmniOutliner and checked... decided I need to learn more :-)

at least this is what my workflow looks... and yes, it still takes  
longer than planned.

andre
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Re: Constellation

[Charles Hartman]

No, sorry, I wasn't clear -- my point was the opposite. For almost  
everything I do (except sending email and writing prose) -- music for  
example -- I have to put together bits and pieces of programs,  
whether they're open-source or not. Since a lot of the grunge time  
goes (of course) into getting the programs to work together in either  
case, and since the commercial ones are generally *harder* to  
combine, the attraction of open-source solutions mounts up pretty  
quickly.


But I think I'm off-topic. Sorry.

Charles Hartman

On Oct 21, 2005, at 3:19 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:


Charles,

Notwithstanding your experience and not sure of Jim's intention, I  
can attest to doing the 'multiple free program shuffle' many times.  
For instance to create a VCD from home videos took at least 5 free  
programs, so I just broke down and bought Nero which worked great.


best,

Chipp

Charles Hartman wrote:


Are you saying this is a difference between open-source and   
commercial software? That sure isn't my experience.




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Re: Constellation

[Andre Garzia]

On Oct 21, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

It is a fundamental Truth of the Universe (when you reach my  
advanced stage of life you can even afford to pontificate now and  
again) that everything takes longer than you think it will even  
when you take into account that everything takes longer than you  
think it will.




I have told you my theory that if every project takes longer than  
imagined than you just go stacking them like domino tiles and hope  
that when you finish a easy one they will all be solved in chain  
reaction! :-)



jokes apart, I think the best approach to get something done is
1) write a spec, something to guide you, like what problem you're  
trying to solve (thats an important question), how should your app  
behaves.
2) Adopt modular paradigm like model-view-controller, something to  
split GUI from code so that your code will be portable and maintainable.
3) Follow deadlines, even if you don't have one, go and create  
artificial one with punishments like: if I pass 10 of october without  
an alpha version of my new superduper rev game I shall be honor bound  
to drink a cup of orange juice with 3 spoons of salt
4) Always research, chances are someone created something similar to  
what you're trying to do, see how they did it, learn from others. For  
example, I love outliners and am trying to build a little one for  
personal use in Rev, I just downloaded everything from MORE to  
OmniOutliner and checked... decided I need to learn more :-)


at least this is what my workflow looks... and yes, it still takes  
longer than planned.


andre
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Re: Constellation

[Chipp Walters]

Charles,

Notwithstanding your experience and not sure of Jim's intention, I can 
attest to doing the 'multiple free program shuffle' many times. For 
instance to create a VCD from home videos took at least 5 free programs, 
so I just broke down and bought Nero which worked great.


best,

Chipp

Charles Hartman wrote:

Are you saying this is a difference between open-source and  commercial 
software? That sure isn't my experience. 


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Re: Constellation

[Charles Hartman]

On Oct 21, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Jim Ault wrote:

Another factor in the 'value' vs 'benefit' to open source and  
commercial
software is that the utilizer (user) has to study any of the  
material and
forge a solution by combining it with something else.  This is also  
a cost,

often an insidious, slowly-revealing hidden cost.


Are you saying this is a difference between open-source and  
commercial software? That sure isn't my experience. (Rev provides an  
excellent example of non-open-source software that, for me at least,  
seems to require a lot of cobbling-together to make something finally  
usable.) Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.


Charles Hartman

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Re: Constellation

[Dan Shafer]

It is a fundamental Truth of the Universe (when you reach my advanced  
stage of life you can even afford to pontificate now and again) that  
everything takes longer than you think it will even when you take  
into account that everything takes longer than you think it will.


Combine this with your other point, namely that there's just too  
darned much interesting about life in general let alone your digital  
life and you see why so many projects (as you so delightfully phrased  
it) "end up

gathering magnetic dust in a corner of our hard drives."



On Oct 21, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Jim Ault wrote:


For me, the
correction is to wake up, smell the coffee and accept that I will  
get less

done than I like.





~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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Re: Constellation

[Jim Ault]

Ben brought out an excellent topic, since it could be that Rev needs another
boost in market share and public recognition.  Along the lines of
commentary, I offer my thoughts that may have no bearing on the core of the
issue, but are pertinent to the developers I know and could be possible
contributors to some open source collaboration.

Another factor in the 'value' vs 'benefit' to open source and commercial
software is that the utilizer (user) has to study any of the material and
forge a solution by combining it with something else.  This is also a cost,
often an insidious, slowly-revealing hidden cost.

The effort required could be simple steps to produce a fabulous result and
the end-product that is quite valuable.  In most any case I can think of, a
tool/utility/widget/product is only the beginning of the work path.  I dare
say that many of the attractive/cool utilities that we all collect, end up
gathering magnetic dust in a corner of our hard drives.  There simply is not
enough time to follow through on all the tasks we would like to solve and
master.

It could be as simple as "I am married now", "my wife will kill me", "that
was a lost three days to figure out", "my client is slowing down the
project", "my client is now asking for ", "after all this work I find
out that what I need next cannot be done"... and on.

Given that there are so many levels of "completion" on our hard drives, it
is more a question of necessity that determines what we manage to finish and
what remains a work in progress.  So many tasks, so little time.

The last factor that I have learned by years of experience is how to correct
for misjudging the time-it-takes-to-finish even the smallest function or
feature.  I constantly find myself saying that will only take 2 hours to do,
and, of course, it takes 4 before I am happy with it.  For me, the
correction is to wake up, smell the coffee and accept that I will get less
done than I like.

I know this is not a philosophical sounding and steeped in more formal
language, but the issues of collaboration go beyond the desire and
opportunity of the participants.  Real life happens while we are merrily
immersed in the abstract world of our choosing.

Go for it, Ben, but realize that at my stage, (recently married, starting
two businesses, approaching retirement in 10 years), I know that I am not a
candidate for collaboration.  I will try to give back to the list and others
as I am able in the coming years, but have to realize my time limitations.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 10/21/05 10:10 AM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Ben,
> 
> I certainly understand the allure of open source-- and am thankful for
> it. Interestingly, it is not totally the 'free spirited not for profit'
> many believe it to be, as many of those who are involved have sound
> business (commercial money-making) reasons for doing so-- like IBM and
> Linspire.
> 
> In fact there are entire business strategies around how to profit from
> starting an open source project.
> 
> Take MySQL for instance. If you want to use it for your company, you
> must pay a license fee (and it's not that small either).
> 
> I look at all software as tools (I'm not a gamer;-), and I always ask
> myself what the benefit of a purchased software tool is to me vs the
> time I would need to create it or download a 'free' version. For
> instance, TechSmith makes Camtasia, a fine commercial product for
> capturing screen activity and making a movie of it. I know there are a
> lot of freeware and opensource alternatives, but I choose the Camtasia
> product because it's more robust, has more features, and is better
> supported. I'm willing to trade $$$ for this convenience. Others are not
> and that's certainly their perogative!
> 
> I believe Richard Gaskin said it quite well on an earlier post:
> 
> "The irony of GPL is that it can unfairly favor the wealthy:  common
> workers need to eat and pay rent, leaving only those with sufficient
> wealth for significant leisure projects able to work on GPL stuff.  Once
> this wealth is applied to an application category, "free" can have the
> same effect as the antitrust violation of "dumping", driving working
> people out of the market leaving only the product driven by unrelated
> wealth.
> 
> Sorry Mr. Stallman, but that's what happens in a "gift economy" when
> programmers are the only ones gifting while landlords and grocers still
> expect to be paid."
> 
> That said, I think OS projects can work in Rev. Take a look at the
> MetaCard IDE for instance, it's all open sourced (though it didn't start
> that way).
> 
> Regarding multiple users working together, I have an interesting story.
> 
> Richard Gaskin, Jacque Gay and I all have our own property editor
> plugins which display ALL the rev control props, not just the ones the
> Rev IDE lets you see. So, we decided to group our ideas and make a
> single 'super' object prop editor in an 'open source' sort of way, and
> include it in 

Re: Constellation

[Richard Gaskin]

Jerry Daniels wrote:
And then there's the part you highlighted: the technical nuts and  bolts 
of versioning, for which there are tools (Chipp's Magic Carpet,  for 
one). I think it may be the non-coding part of team work that  gums up 
the works IMHO. One way around that is for one person to take  a project 
to a certain point where a commitment has been made as to  direction and 
then the following becomes less like herding cats. The  "Burn the 
boats!" approach it's sometimes called.


That's kind of what I thought I'd do with Constellation.


Good call, and reflective of how most successful open source projects 
work, or at least got started.


The "herding cats" aspect is why so many open source projects never get 
off the ground.  In contrast, projects as big as Linux and as small as 
the MetaCard IDE manage to run several years with sucessful releases 
because the project's founder conveyed a clear vision with a finished 
work, providing a mandate that focuses contributor efforts.


Without such a well-communicated mandate projects often languish in 
"analysis paralysis", like a painter standing before a boundless canvas 
wondering where to start.



Also, in open source environs, SOMEBODY puts up some money SOMEWHERE.  


Yep.

Contrary to the complex theories of some open source advocates, in 
practice it turns out that even open source contributors need to eat. 
The "gift economy" only truly works when everyone gifts, but as long as 
it's only programmers doing the gifting it'll still take cash somewhere 
in the chain to put a roof over the programmer's head and food in her 
stomach while she's typing.


In America the definition of "socialism" has become distorted to the 
point that many misunderstand it to be synonymous with "communism".  And 
yet if we consider that most open source wares began life in 
publicly-funded institutions, in effect what we have is a form of 
"socialized software", in which a portion of the taxes we've paid have 
gone into starting GNU, Mozilla, and other public works.  Personally I 
don't mind this at all; I'd rather have the government displacing 
products from Microsoft than some of the other projects they undertake.


Even the Internet which makes all this possible was for most of its life 
a federally funded project until it was privatized by the Clinton 
administration in mid-90s.


Those of us working on smaller projects don't get federal funding, and 
IBM isn't cutting us checks either (yet, though I do believe AOL wastes 
a significant amount of its development budget by not using Rev; 
hopefully one of us will have the opportunity to explain that to them 
one day).


So instead we cover our development costs in any number of other ways, 
and one of them is asking for value directly from the user in exchange 
for the value recieved.  In a sense commercial software is arguably the 
most egalitarian funding model, as it asks the same contribution from 
everyone who choses to participate.


In conrast, the vast majority of people who benefit from open source 
projects never give anything in return (adding a whole other dimension 
to the word "user" ).


With devolution I've experimented with a middle path between gratis and 
commercial packages:  devo is free to use, but one can show their 
support by making a modest payment and get technical support and a 
limited license to the source to boot.


This model has worked well for me: it's brought in very little revenue, 
but since I make devolution for my own use and my clients it doesn't 
matter, as I'm free to build it however I like without having to 
consider the commercial potential of features, or invest heavily in 
documentation.


 And as we've learned from watching SuperCard and Rev over the 
years, it doesn't matter how many tens of thousands of dollars you 
invest in docs, people will always complain about them even when you 
deliver more than companies a hundred times your size.  Indeed the only 
xTalks I've seen with few complaints about the docs were HyperCard, 
which had a plethora of third-party books, and MetaCard, whose pricing 
acted as a sort of whinge filter, eliminating virtually everyone but the 
professional developer. 


I respect and admire your releasing Constellation as a commercial 
product.   For such a polished and useful toolkit your pricing is far 
below what it's worth.  With any luck your users will recognize this and 
buy a couple extra licenses to bring their contribution up to the value 
of what you've delivered to them. :)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 __
 Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev

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Re: Constellation

[Mark Wieder]

Jerry-

Friday, October 21, 2005, 9:33:16 AM, you wrote:

> Developers normally disagree on UI, but Rev developers
> disagree on UI and workflow both.

ROTFL

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Constellation

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Ben,

I certainly understand the allure of open source-- and am thankful for
it. Interestingly, it is not totally the 'free spirited not for profit'
many believe it to be, as many of those who are involved have sound
business (commercial money-making) reasons for doing so-- like IBM and
Linspire.

In fact there are entire business strategies around how to profit from
starting an open source project.

Take MySQL for instance. If you want to use it for your company, you
must pay a license fee (and it's not that small either).

I look at all software as tools (I'm not a gamer;-), and I always ask
myself what the benefit of a purchased software tool is to me vs the
time I would need to create it or download a 'free' version. For
instance, TechSmith makes Camtasia, a fine commercial product for 
capturing screen activity and making a movie of it. I know there are a 
lot of freeware and opensource alternatives, but I choose the Camtasia 
product because it's more robust, has more features, and is better 
supported. I'm willing to trade $$$ for this convenience. Others are not 
and that's certainly their perogative!


I believe Richard Gaskin said it quite well on an earlier post:

"The irony of GPL is that it can unfairly favor the wealthy:  common
workers need to eat and pay rent, leaving only those with sufficient
wealth for significant leisure projects able to work on GPL stuff.  Once
this wealth is applied to an application category, "free" can have the
same effect as the antitrust violation of "dumping", driving working
people out of the market leaving only the product driven by unrelated
wealth.

Sorry Mr. Stallman, but that's what happens in a "gift economy" when
programmers are the only ones gifting while landlords and grocers still
expect to be paid."

That said, I think OS projects can work in Rev. Take a look at the 
MetaCard IDE for instance, it's all open sourced (though it didn't start 
that way).


Regarding multiple users working together, I have an interesting story.

Richard Gaskin, Jacque Gay and I all have our own property editor
plugins which display ALL the rev control props, not just the ones the
Rev IDE lets you see. So, we decided to group our ideas and make a
single 'super' object prop editor in an 'open source' sort of way, and
include it in the standard Rev IDE distro. Sounds like a fairly simple idea.

Now, I believe all three of us to be competent Rev programmers,
each with a couple commercial apps coded in Transcript under our belt. 
As we sat down to do this simple task, it became evident the management 
of the decision process was much more 'time and process intensive' than 
just writing the damn thing, which any of us could do easily!


Truly a valuable insight to me. I don't think it ever got finished. At 
least it's not in the distro at this time. We all just had too much 
other stuff to do. (I notice in a previous post of yours, you too, have 
similar time constraints for creating 'free' stuff).


Now that's only a single instance, but does point out how sometimes it's 
 much easier to sit down and write your own product, sell it or give it 
away, than work with a group to develop it. In fact, most my free 
plugins are developed just this way. I have a need, develop for myself 
and give it to the community.


best wishes,

Chipp

Ben Fisher wrote:
It seems like a lot of the plug-ins and tools 
for Revolution lately are being sold.


However, I am always more attracted to free 
open-source projects, not just because of the price, but also because
 of the spirit. Developers helping each other, one of the reasons I 
subscribe to this list. If I download open-source code, I can 
contribute to the project. All fellow developers can profit from my 
contributions, and not just the few who can afford to buy.


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Re: Constellation

[Jerry Daniels]

Ben,

When I first got the urge to write another script editor  
(Constellation), I discussed it with Chipp Walters, Chris Bohnert,  
and Dan Shafer. I also chatted with Richard Gaskin about it. The  
first part of that conversation centered around doing Constellation  
as an open source project.


I think you are right about the nature of team work in the Rev  
environs, but also the nature of the Rev developer is part of the  
reason that we don't have a "traditional" open source movement within  
our community. Developers normally disagree on UI, but Rev developers  
disagree on UI and workflow both. I think this is because we are Mac,  
Windows and Linux users. This makes collaborating difficult. You have  
to have a tall dog in the group to say: "This is the way we're going  
to do it."


And then there's the part you highlighted: the technical nuts and  
bolts of versioning, for which there are tools (Chipp's Magic Carpet,  
for one). I think it may be the non-coding part of team work that  
gums up the works IMHO. One way around that is for one person to take  
a project to a certain point where a commitment has been made as to  
direction and then the following becomes less like herding cats. The  
"Burn the boats!" approach it's sometimes called.


That's kind of what I thought I'd do with Constellation. Get it going  
and then call in reinforcements. My initial focus group didn't think  
it was a realistic idea due to the size of the Rev developer customer  
base and because the technology itself was not "mainstream" enough or  
the "darling" of the right group of techies. I think they were right.


We do have our own way of doing things "openly" though, and it seems  
to work. My code is not locked, for instance, and most other Rev  
commercial products aren't either. I have bought product from Key Ray  
and Chipp. Any time I have a project where I am getting paid, I'm  
more than happy to allocate some of the project money to code,  
libraries and products that make a specific contribution to the  
project. As someone said before...we exchange money with each other a  
lot.


Also, in open source environs, SOMEBODY puts up some money SOMEWHERE.  
IBM, for example, pays a lot of people to contribute to the open  
source community because it is in its best interests. Others donate  
time because they know they will get speaker or consultant fees for  
the knowledge they will accrue in the process of working for "free."  
I think you get my drift here.


I think the way we're doing it is good, but at some point, the  
idealogical, technical and market forces WILL converge or become  
favorable enough to support a more traditional open source movement  
that includes Transcript and/or Revolution.


SO...it's good you bring it  up. Maybe that day of convergence is today.

Best,

Jerry

http://www.daniels-mara.com/products/constellation.htm
Scripts and properties in a tabbed editor! Video tutorials!


On Oct 20, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Ben Fisher wrote:

Well, I guess Constellation beat me to it... I had also been  
working on a

similar script editing interface. It looks pretty nice though.
 Just a few comments...
 It seems like a lot of the plug-ins and tools for Revolution  
lately are
being sold. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact most of the  
time these

products look nicer and are easier to use.
 However, I am always more attracted to free open-source projects,  
not just
because of the price, but also because of the spirit. Developers  
helping

each other, one of the reasons I subscribe to this list. If I download
open-source code, I can contribute to the project. All fellow  
developers can
profit from my contributions, and not just the few who can afford  
to buy.
Perhaps Revolution is partly at fault: that stacks (not being text  
files)

are not as easy to be developed by a team. Or maybe I just belong to a
different generation of coders?
 After thriving off of free software for so long, it felt kind of  
awkward
for me to spend the money to even upgrade my version of Revolution.  
Paying
money just to get the language? I'm sure many other potential Rev  
developers

are discouraged by the same type of feelings.
 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the  
Rev

universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of  
tools and
utilities all completely free and open source. I know websites like  
this

already exist, but it would be so much cooler if there were one
authoritative Rev Source.
 -Ben Fisher
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Re: Constellation

[Thomas McGrath III]

Not corny at all. I agree with you. The spirit of this list pushes me  
to help others as well. And that is rewarding in itself.


Tom

On Oct 21, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


I am amazed when I see things that come into existence through a
community-spirit motivation - it renews my faith in the core  
goodness of

humanity (forgive my corniness):)

The two examples that stand out for me in this regard are this  
list, and

wikipedia.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
McGrath III
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:40 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation

Jonathan,

Absolutely, That is why, even though I spent $1,200 on Director, I
decided to switch to Revolution 'enterprise user'. I had spent time
lurking on this list and after a while it hit me "Wow, These guys
really care. They want to help people just like I do. They want to
see people succeed in this endeavor."  I have not been disappointed
since then. I was just sharing my fear that it 'could' happen here. I
certainly hope it does not and I know I would not change.

This is the best list I have ever been on. The people are selfless
and caring. I love it.


Tom

On Oct 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


Surely, by now, you have found that Rev users are very willing to  
help

each other out, free of charge?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
McGrath III
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:24 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation

Dennis,

This sounds reasonable. I guess my 'fear' is that once 'everyone'
says "Hey, I can sell this using this list as my source of customers"
then this list and the attitude turns and starts to feel just like
Director and it's lists. That is why I stopped developing in Director
in the first place, not enough community support and 'greedy
appearing' developers that won't share their time with newbies or
with someone that is just struggling with a piece of code. (Not all
Director developers are like this, but enough to make me switch to
REV. Also, It is not guaranteed that this would happen here but it
might.)

P.S. I bought Constellation and the whole set of Gadgets. I only
really wanted one part of it and was curious about productivity
increase with the rest. (The video's actually sold me with the
support from users on the list.)

Tom

On Oct 20, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:




However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task
of producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for
sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying
customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support
it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a
modest fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees
received from other developers = the fees payed for other
developers tools.

 I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not
actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.
The fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it
pays for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and
sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time
spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is
also a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for
getting future contract work.




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RE: Constellation

[Lynch, Jonathan]

I am amazed when I see things that come into existence through a
community-spirit motivation - it renews my faith in the core goodness of
humanity (forgive my corniness):)

The two examples that stand out for me in this regard are this list, and
wikipedia.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
McGrath III
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:40 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation

Jonathan,

Absolutely, That is why, even though I spent $1,200 on Director, I  
decided to switch to Revolution 'enterprise user'. I had spent time  
lurking on this list and after a while it hit me "Wow, These guys  
really care. They want to help people just like I do. They want to  
see people succeed in this endeavor."  I have not been disappointed  
since then. I was just sharing my fear that it 'could' happen here. I  
certainly hope it does not and I know I would not change.

This is the best list I have ever been on. The people are selfless  
and caring. I love it.


Tom

On Oct 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:

> Surely, by now, you have found that Rev users are very willing to help
> each other out, free of charge?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
> McGrath III
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:24 AM
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Constellation
>
> Dennis,
>
> This sounds reasonable. I guess my 'fear' is that once 'everyone'
> says "Hey, I can sell this using this list as my source of customers"
> then this list and the attitude turns and starts to feel just like
> Director and it's lists. That is why I stopped developing in Director
> in the first place, not enough community support and 'greedy
> appearing' developers that won't share their time with newbies or
> with someone that is just struggling with a piece of code. (Not all
> Director developers are like this, but enough to make me switch to
> REV. Also, It is not guaranteed that this would happen here but it
> might.)
>
> P.S. I bought Constellation and the whole set of Gadgets. I only
> really wanted one part of it and was curious about productivity
> increase with the rest. (The video's actually sold me with the
> support from users on the list.)
>
> Tom
>
> On Oct 20, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:
>
>
>> However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task
>> of producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for
>> sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying
>> customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support
>> it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a
>> modest fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees
>> received from other developers = the fees payed for other
>> developers tools.
>>
>>  I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not
>> actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.
>> The fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it
>> pays for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and
>> sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time
>> spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is
>> also a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for
>> getting future contract work.
>>
>
> ___
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> subscription preferences:
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Re: Constellation

[Thomas McGrath III]

Jonathan,

Absolutely, That is why, even though I spent $1,200 on Director, I  
decided to switch to Revolution 'enterprise user'. I had spent time  
lurking on this list and after a while it hit me "Wow, These guys  
really care. They want to help people just like I do. They want to  
see people succeed in this endeavor."  I have not been disappointed  
since then. I was just sharing my fear that it 'could' happen here. I  
certainly hope it does not and I know I would not change.


This is the best list I have ever been on. The people are selfless  
and caring. I love it.



Tom

On Oct 21, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Lynch, Jonathan wrote:


Surely, by now, you have found that Rev users are very willing to help
each other out, free of charge?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
McGrath III
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:24 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation

Dennis,

This sounds reasonable. I guess my 'fear' is that once 'everyone'
says "Hey, I can sell this using this list as my source of customers"
then this list and the attitude turns and starts to feel just like
Director and it's lists. That is why I stopped developing in Director
in the first place, not enough community support and 'greedy
appearing' developers that won't share their time with newbies or
with someone that is just struggling with a piece of code. (Not all
Director developers are like this, but enough to make me switch to
REV. Also, It is not guaranteed that this would happen here but it
might.)

P.S. I bought Constellation and the whole set of Gadgets. I only
really wanted one part of it and was curious about productivity
increase with the rest. (The video's actually sold me with the
support from users on the list.)

Tom

On Oct 20, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:



However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task
of producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for
sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying
customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support
it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a
modest fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees
received from other developers = the fees payed for other
developers tools.

 I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not
actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.
The fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it
pays for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and
sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time
spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is
also a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for
getting future contract work.



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RE: Constellation

[Lynch, Jonathan]

Surely, by now, you have found that Rev users are very willing to help
each other out, free of charge?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas
McGrath III
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 10:24 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Constellation

Dennis,

This sounds reasonable. I guess my 'fear' is that once 'everyone'  
says "Hey, I can sell this using this list as my source of customers"  
then this list and the attitude turns and starts to feel just like  
Director and it's lists. That is why I stopped developing in Director  
in the first place, not enough community support and 'greedy  
appearing' developers that won't share their time with newbies or  
with someone that is just struggling with a piece of code. (Not all  
Director developers are like this, but enough to make me switch to  
REV. Also, It is not guaranteed that this would happen here but it  
might.)

P.S. I bought Constellation and the whole set of Gadgets. I only  
really wanted one part of it and was curious about productivity  
increase with the rest. (The video's actually sold me with the  
support from users on the list.)

Tom

On Oct 20, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

> However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task  
> of producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for  
> sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying  
> customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support  
> it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a  
> modest fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees  
> received from other developers = the fees payed for other  
> developers tools.
>
>  I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not  
> actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.   
> The fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it  
> pays for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and  
> sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time  
> spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is  
> also a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for  
> getting future contract work.

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Re: Constellation

[Thomas McGrath III]

Dennis,

This sounds reasonable. I guess my 'fear' is that once 'everyone'  
says "Hey, I can sell this using this list as my source of customers"  
then this list and the attitude turns and starts to feel just like  
Director and it's lists. That is why I stopped developing in Director  
in the first place, not enough community support and 'greedy  
appearing' developers that won't share their time with newbies or  
with someone that is just struggling with a piece of code. (Not all  
Director developers are like this, but enough to make me switch to  
REV. Also, It is not guaranteed that this would happen here but it  
might.)


P.S. I bought Constellation and the whole set of Gadgets. I only  
really wanted one part of it and was curious about productivity  
increase with the rest. (The video's actually sold me with the  
support from users on the list.)


Tom

On Oct 20, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task  
of producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for  
sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying  
customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support  
it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a  
modest fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees  
received from other developers = the fees payed for other  
developers tools.


 I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not  
actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.   
The fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it  
pays for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and  
sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time  
spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is  
also a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for  
getting future contract work.


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Re: Constellation

[Dennis Brown]

Well, then I am back to paying for a product.  The circle closes back  
on itself ;-)


On Oct 21, 2005, at 3:33 AM, Rishi Viner wrote:


On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:30 pm, Dennis Brown wrote:


If I pay RunRev for a better product, I
am justified in yelling at them if they slack off on delivering.  If
it were open source, I would have to beg for someone to donate the
time to fix or improve anything.



Not entirely true... You could always offer to pay the developer  
some money to

fix your gripe. ;-) This is actually quite common.

Most open source development projects have a paypal link on their  
sites too,

so you can make donations just to keep them interested!

--
Rishi Viner
--
PUREDATA
Australia

www.puredata.com.au
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Re: Constellation

[Rishi Viner]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:30 pm, Dennis Brown wrote:
> If I pay RunRev for a better product, I
> am justified in yelling at them if they slack off on delivering.  If
> it were open source, I would have to beg for someone to donate the
> time to fix or improve anything.  

Not entirely true... You could always offer to pay the developer some money to 
fix your gripe. ;-) This is actually quite common.

Most open source development projects have a paypal link on their sites too, 
so you can make donations just to keep them interested!

-- 
Rishi Viner
--
PUREDATA
Australia

www.puredata.com.au
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Re: Constellation

[Dan Shafer]

On Oct 20, 2005, at 5:43 PM, Ben Fisher wrote:

 It seems like a lot of the plug-ins and tools for Revolution  
lately are
being sold. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact most of the  
time these

products look nicer and are easier to use.
 However, I am always more attracted to free open-source projects,  
not just

because of the price, but also because of the spirit.


While I certainly agree with your notion of "spirit" here, Ben, I  
have to say that I am more than happy to pay folks like Jerry Daniels  
and Ken Ray and Chipp Walters and Jan Schenkel (and others too  
numerous to mention) for the hard work they put in designing and  
productizing a tool I can use to make money. There are, of course,  
many others who contribute free and/or open source tools to the  
community and I appreciate them as well. But I'm glad that when I run  
into a problem or question with Constellation, I don't have to spend  
10 or 20 or 30 hours rummaging through source code to find and fix  
the problem.


Open source isn't what it's cracked up to be in my experience. "You  
can fix it" presumes you have the time, expertise, energy, and need  
for it to be fixed. And if you don't, then you're at the mercy of a  
frequently distracted and fragmented community of developers, none of  
whom may see the need for the feature without which you cannot work.


Again, I think the mix of both commercial and open source is  
ultimately a good place to be. There are open source and free dev  
tools out there for Rev. I've chosen Constellation for a lot of reasons.




 After thriving off of free software for so long, it felt kind of  
awkward
for me to spend the money to even upgrade my version of Revolution.  
Paying

money just to get the language?


Well, first of all  you're not paying just to get the language, but  
also the IDE. You can get Python free but there isn't a decent  
graphical IDE for it. I know. I was part of the PythonCard team for a  
long time and that project ended up not being released because there  
just wasn't enough support or demand. Other open source languages  
often suffer from the same inadequacy.


Second, not all of the free, open source languages out there are free  
when you're done buying books to tell you how to use them, libraries  
to do the things the language isn't designed to do, support for when  
the tool breaks and you're on deadline...  Been there, done that. I'm  
a big fan of a number of open source languages conceptually (Python,  
JavaScript, Smalltalk and others) but to get real work done, I always  
go back to Rev.


Must be a reason for that.




~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html


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Re: Constellation

[Dennis Brown]

Ben,

This is a good idea, and I am glad you have the time and energy to  
help make it happen.  One of the things I like about the Rev  
community is that the spirit of sharing is alive.


However, I don't begrudge any developer, who has taken on the task of  
producing a significant tool for development, a modest fee for  
sharing it.  It takes a lot of work (and time away from paying  
customers) to turn a personal tool into a product --and to support  
it.  If every developer made a modest tool and shared it for a modest  
fee, then it would be a break even proposition --the fees received  
from other developers = the fees payed for other developers tools.


 I believe that the tools offered for sale in this community do not  
actually pay back for the time and effort in their development.  The  
fee charged just insures that those who buy it, need it, and it pays  
for their support.  I believe it is mostly a labor of love and  
sharing, but a developer needs an incentive to rationalize the time  
spent on a "product" with no initial paying customer.  There is also  
a promotion of reputation in the process that is good for getting  
future contract work.


Sharing openly a tool in a less than productized state, might work  
out to be the same cost --the debug and maintenance effort is  
somewhat shared.  I see a lot of this sharing here and it also helps  
others progress in the process.


However, a significant product effort like Rev or even Constellation  
requires a significant level of design, commitment, and support to  
make it into a reality.  People are working full time on upgrading,  
debugging, and supporting these.  Someone has to pay the bills.  If  
the tool results in labor saved in development, it pays for itself  
many times over.


I am happy to support those efforts, so my tools will continue to  
improve and be maintained.  If I pay RunRev for a better product, I  
am justified in yelling at them if they slack off on delivering.  If  
it were open source, I would have to beg for someone to donate the  
time to fix or improve anything.  Besides the community is not big  
enough to support an open project of this magnitude.


People who don't earn any revenue from their programming (like me)  
would of course like to take advantage of the lowest cost tools.  I  
have to weigh the cost of my time (free, but not really) with the  
cost of a tool.  I believe RunRev has addressed this appropriately  
with DreamCard (Revolution for the rest of us), and the various  
levels of Revolution.  I know that if I can't really solve my problem  
without a tool, I can find something at a reasonable price here.


The Rev community supports all these various models for tool  
development and I believe it is the richer for it.  I am most  
encouraged by the fact that the same developer is often involved in  
more than one kind of sharing their talents --pay product, free  
product, open source, free advice.


The developers on this list all ROCK!

Dennis

On Oct 20, 2005, at 8:43 PM, Ben Fisher wrote:

Well, I guess Constellation beat me to it... I had also been  
working on a

similar script editing interface. It looks pretty nice though.
 Just a few comments...
 It seems like a lot of the plug-ins and tools for Revolution  
lately are
being sold. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact most of the  
time these

products look nicer and are easier to use.
 However, I am always more attracted to free open-source projects,  
not just
because of the price, but also because of the spirit. Developers  
helping

each other, one of the reasons I subscribe to this list. If I download
open-source code, I can contribute to the project. All fellow  
developers can
profit from my contributions, and not just the few who can afford  
to buy.
Perhaps Revolution is partly at fault: that stacks (not being text  
files)

are not as easy to be developed by a team. Or maybe I just belong to a
different generation of coders?
 After thriving off of free software for so long, it felt kind of  
awkward
for me to spend the money to even upgrade my version of Revolution.  
Paying
money just to get the language? I'm sure many other potential Rev  
developers

are discouraged by the same type of feelings.
 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the  
Rev

universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of  
tools and
utilities all completely free and open source. I know websites like  
this

already exist, but it would be so much cooler if there were one
authoritative Rev Source.
 -Ben Fisher
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_

Re: Constellation

[Thomas McGrath III]

Ben,

I agree with what you are saying and the one nice thing about this  
list and REV compared to let's say Director is that there are so many  
people willing to help out with code snippets and ideas and stacks to  
disect etc.


Tom

On Oct 20, 2005, at 8:43 PM, Ben Fisher wrote:

Well, I guess Constellation beat me to it... I had also been  
working on a

similar script editing interface. It looks pretty nice though.
 Just a few comments...
 It seems like a lot of the plug-ins and tools for Revolution  
lately are
being sold. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact most of the  
time these

products look nicer and are easier to use.
 However, I am always more attracted to free open-source projects,  
not just
because of the price, but also because of the spirit. Developers  
helping

each other, one of the reasons I subscribe to this list. If I download
open-source code, I can contribute to the project. All fellow  
developers can
profit from my contributions, and not just the few who can afford  
to buy.
Perhaps Revolution is partly at fault: that stacks (not being text  
files)

are not as easy to be developed by a team. Or maybe I just belong to a
different generation of coders?
 After thriving off of free software for so long, it felt kind of  
awkward
for me to spend the money to even upgrade my version of Revolution.  
Paying
money just to get the language? I'm sure many other potential Rev  
developers

are discouraged by the same type of feelings.
 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the  
Rev

universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of  
tools and
utilities all completely free and open source. I know websites like  
this

already exist, but it would be so much cooler if there were one
authoritative Rev Source.
 -Ben Fisher
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Re: Constellation

[Richard Gaskin]

Alex Tweedly wrote:

Richard Gaskin wrote:


Ben Fisher wrote


 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the Rev
universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of 
tools and

utilities all completely free and open source.




I can create a section at revJournal for that.
Would you like to be the editor of that section?

I'd suggest making it more like an index than a complete repository. 
Many people currently have Rev stacks available on their own web-sites, 
and will wish to continue to do so. Duplicating those stacks in some 
central repository places a burden on someone to keep it up to date. And 
it's easy to run a link-checker on an "index", but not easy to run an 
"is it up to date check" on stacks.


So by all means allow stacks to be put into the repository - but also 
allow for the (I suspect more common) case where the stack is already 
available on-line, and only a pointer to it is needed in the central place.


I think that's an excellent idea.   Very much like RevNet.

We can publish the index in a simple delimited format for use by RevNet, 
Eric Chatonet's tools, and any other viewer anyone cares to make for the 
repository.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Constellation

[Alex Tweedly]

Richard Gaskin wrote:


Ben Fisher wrote


 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the Rev
universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of 
tools and

utilities all completely free and open source.



I can create a section at revJournal for that.
Would you like to be the editor of that section?

I'd suggest making it more like an index than a complete repository. 
Many people currently have Rev stacks available on their own web-sites, 
and will wish to continue to do so. Duplicating those stacks in some 
central repository places a burden on someone to keep it up to date. And 
it's easy to run a link-checker on an "index", but not easy to run an 
"is it up to date check" on stacks.


So by all means allow stacks to be put into the repository - but also 
allow for the (I suspect more common) case where the stack is already 
available on-line, and only a pointer to it is needed in the central place.



--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Constellation

[Richard Gaskin]

Ben Fisher wrote

 I propose that a central website be created, full of code from the Rev
universe. More structured than a wiki, files would be uploaded into
categories and directories, but the whole database could be quickly
searched. Most importantly, there would be a section composed of tools and
utilities all completely free and open source.


I can create a section at revJournal for that.
Would you like to be the editor of that section?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
 Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: Constellation: any way to get equivalent of the selectedObject?

[Jerry Daniels]

David,

First of all, the feature "no-click" inspection is a feature of  
Inspection Gadget which works with either Constellation OR the Rev  
script/prop editors.


We USED TO select the object during no-click inspection--if the  
pointer was chosen.


However: that became problematic because the user didn't explicitly  
select the object and sometimes said user took subsequent actions to  
do something to the selected object they hadn't intended--like delete  
it with an accidental backspace or something!


SO...now we don't select the object during no-click inspection, but  
there are three clear indications as to the identity of the current  
object you're working IF you're using Constellation:


1. The TITLE of Constellation's window has the full name of the  
object you're editing.

2. The TAB that is dedicated to that object has the name of the object
3. The PREVIEW (or copy) of the object is shown

We figured after all that, it wasn't necessary to select the object  
during no-click inspection and risk the user forgetting that the  
object WAS selected.


Hope that helps.

Jerry

http://www.daniels-mara.com/products/constellation.htm
Scripts and properties in a tabbed editor!

On Oct 18, 2005, at 4:30 PM, David Bovill wrote:

Like the fact you can work with objects without actually selecting  
themn but how can you determine which object is "selected" from  
constellation from a script? In a bit of a consternation over this?

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Re: Constellation users?

[Troy Rollins]

On Oct 11, 2005, at 2:44 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

Constellation the script editor, for the most part works great on PC, 
but I think there are still a couple of tweaks yet to go. I frequently 
fire it up to use some of it's more special features. For instance, 
the ability to create 'script folders' for a single object script is 
invaluable. It's really great for library scripts which can get quite 
long. You can effectively 'drag-drop' your handlers and functions into 
script folders which can be expanded/collapsed with a single 
mouseClick.


This sounds great. Thanks for the info.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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Re: Constellation users?

[Chipp Walters]

If you're a Mac user, then IMO, it's a 'must have.' As a PC user, I've 
been using the inspector gadget for over a year, and can honestly say 
it's the most used plugin in my arsenal (well, maybe tied with altArchive).


Constellation the script editor, for the most part works great on PC, 
but I think there are still a couple of tweaks yet to go. I frequently 
fire it up to use some of it's more special features. For instance, the 
ability to create 'script folders' for a single object script is 
invaluable. It's really great for library scripts which can get quite 
long. You can effectively 'drag-drop' your handlers and functions into 
script folders which can be expanded/collapsed with a single mouseClick.


Jerry works on Macs mostly, but has a PC right there on his desk with 
him. Most of the beta testers (AFAIK) are on Mac as well, so it's been 
really 'put through the ringer' on THAT platform.


The best feature about Constellation, is the support. Anytime I point 
out a problem to Jerry and have a replicable recipe, it gets fixed-- 
usually within 24 hours. Just can't beat that kind of service :-)


-Chipp

Troy Rollins wrote:
Anyone here using D&M's Constellation and other "Gadgets" on a daily 
basis that might be willing to answer a few questions, on or off list? 
I'm considering it, but I don't see a trial version so I'd like to get a 
couple of usage details from a regular user.


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Re: Constellation users?

[Charles Hartman]

On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:



On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Éric Miclo wrote:


Since I've bought a copy of Constellation I don't use anymore  
Rev's integrated script editor.
It's a clean tool and since the latest incarnation it can replace  
Rev's property inspector.




Thanks Éric, and Todd. These are mostly the things I wanted to  
know. Trevor already replied offlist as well, and I've sent him a  
few additional questions. Constellation looks like it can make Rev  
even more powerful and productive. I'll likely give it a go.


I really would. I'm an avid open-source guy; but having sprung for  
Dreamcard, I'm very glad I also sprang for Constellation. It's  
cleaner, better integrated, and for me somewhat more intuitive than  
the Rev IDE, which I continue to find very quirky.


Charles Hartman


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Re: Constellation users?

[Troy Rollins]

On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Éric Miclo wrote:

Since I've bought a copy of Constellation I don't use anymore Rev's 
integrated script editor.
It's a clean tool and since the latest incarnation it can replace 
Rev's property inspector.


Thanks Éric, and Todd. These are mostly the things I wanted to know. 
Trevor already replied offlist as well, and I've sent him a few 
additional questions. Constellation looks like it can make Rev even 
more powerful and productive. I'll likely give it a go.



--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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Re: Constellation users?

[Éric Miclo]

Hello Troy,

Since I've bought a copy of Constellation I don't use anymore Rev's  
integrated script editor.
It's a clean tool and since the latest incarnation it can replace  
Rev's property inspector.


And because Jerry Daniels (the developer) is somebody that has great  
ideas and is really listening to users, the product evolves frequently.

In a few words: I'm very happy with that piece of software.

Inspection Gadget is really useful even if you don't use Constellation.

If you've more questions I'd be glad to try to answer o them.

Regards,

ÉrIC

Le 11 oct. 05 à 17:11, Troy Rollins a écrit :

Anyone here using D&M's Constellation and other "Gadgets" on a  
daily basis that might be willing to answer a few questions, on or  
off list? I'm considering it, but I don't see a trial version so  
I'd like to get a couple of usage details from a regular user.

--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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-- My NeXT computer will Be a Mac too! --


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Re: Constellation users?

[Todd Geist]

Hi Troi,

I am using it every day. I think it is great and it continues to improve
with every release.

I am new Rev user and I never used Rev's IDE much. So I didn't have to adapt
from something else. But I just liked Constellation better so I went with
that.  Occasionally I use Rev's Property inspector along with Constellation,
but for the most part I don't use the Rev script editor at all.

I would be happy you answer any more questions you might have


Todd

On 10/11/05 8:11 AM, "Troy Rollins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Anyone here using D&M's Constellation and other "Gadgets" on a daily
> basis that might be willing to answer a few questions, on or off list?
> I'm considering it, but I don't see a trial version so I'd like to get
> a couple of usage details from a regular user.

-- 

Todd Geist
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g e i s t   i n t e r a c t i v e 


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Re: constellation!

[Meitnik]

Jerry D.,

Thank you, thank you! Keep it up!

Andrew

btw, yes I am back from dealing with windy Fla days
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