Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Sunday, Aug 17, 2003, at 21:06 Europe/Vienna, Bill Vlahos wrote: Dan, Does this mean that you own the fonts? Are they for sale to include in other programs? Assuming they are, can the same font be attached to the application/stack and work on both Mac and Windows without the user having to install the font? Bill Vlahos Thats exactly THE question! Very interesting... pls Dan, answer to that..;) regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Learn easy with trainingsmaps© INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418, Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 06:45 AM, Wolfgang M. Bereuter wrote: Assuming they are, can the same font be attached to the application/stack and work on both Mac and Windows without the user having to install the font? ... Thats exactly THE question! Very interesting... I have heard of embedded fonts. Not just acrobat and web, but also applications and documents on several operating systems. I'd like to learn more of this. Just having look-the-same fonts for multiple operating system and installing them might work. Having those stuffed in custom properties and then birthed and installed with shell or AppleScript would be cool if a restart is not needed or anything like that. Even cooler would be having three fonts built into the engine and they look the same on whatever platform. Dar Scott Dar Scott Consulting http://www.swcp.com/dsc/ Programming Services ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 11:03 AM, Dan Friedman wrote: serif, and san-serif What? No fixed-pitch, too? Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
In the old Hypercard, you could put FONT resources in the resource fork of the stack and they would be recognized by HC. It was a wonderful solution. We were told it wasn't 'kosher' to do that, but it worked great!!! As the basic concept of fonts is not really platform specific, it seems like there should be some way to do this in Rev. Perhaps even a 'special set' of fonts that could be included or sold separately. THE question! Very interesting... I have heard of embedded fonts. Not just acrobat and web, but also applications and documents on several operating systems. I'd like to learn more of this. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
Printing fonts were selected by the user in my apps. I'm talking about display, labels, etc. I didn't use HC printing anyway, I used Printreport Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote: In the old Hypercard, you could put FONT resources in the resource fork of the stack and they would be recognized by HC. It was a wonderful solution. We were told it wasn't 'kosher' to do that, but it worked great!!! ...until you printed, then (with System 7 and later) it crashed the machine. -- Richard Gaskin ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Dar Scott wrote: Even cooler would be having three fonts built into the engine and they look the same on whatever platform. Dar Scott That would make a great feature upgrade. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On 8/18/03 5:16 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Stephen Quinn Barncard wrote: In the old Hypercard, you could put FONT resources in the resource fork of the stack and they would be recognized by HC. It was a wonderful solution. We were told it wasn't 'kosher' to do that, but it worked great!!! ...until you printed, then (with System 7 and later) it crashed the machine. Only if you quit the app before the print job was done. But the crash was spectacular. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 11:36 PM, Terry Vogelaar wrote: I'm getting frustrated with fonts on multiple platforms. Why don't you try OpenType fonts? They install fine on both OSX and newer Windows versions. I recently read that OS X can use Windows TrueType fonts, too. However, since I'm seeing different behavior on Windows XP and OS X, something must be different. Either fonts of the same name are really different depending on the target platform or they are interpreted differently. Something seems hideous about this. Is there some good reason for this or was this planned from the start to torture me? However, something good might come of this. Maybe I can get fonts exactly like those on my Windows system, rename them slightly, and then put them on my OS X. Then I can see Courier New as those on OS X would see it and see Courier New as Windows users would see it. Maybe. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On 8/17/03 1:34 AM, Dar Scott wrote: Something seems hideous about this. Is there some good reason for this or was this planned from the start to torture me? It's tempting to say it was designed just to torment you, but actually this has been the bane of desktop publishing and software design since day one. Apple first came out with TrueType fonts, later followed by Microsoft's version of scalable font metrics. Microsoft did it diferently, of course, and sharing desktop publishing documents across platforms became a nightmare. To make matters worse, Windows also uses a *third* set of metrics for its printer fonts. That means that even if you get something to look right on screen, it will print entirely differently on a PC (Macs thankfully remain consistent, since the same metrics are used on screen and for printing.) Windows definitely does not have WYSIWYG printing support by any means, and I still haven't figured out how commercial Windows software is able to fake it. The problem has bitten me more than once, and is the reason that Rev provides the formatForPrinting property to help stack authors get some idea of how the printout will vary from the screen display. As others have suggested, the difficulty of assuring consistency of font display across platforms is rarely worth the trouble and isn't really reliable anyway. Most of us just get the best approximation we can, and let the text fall as it may. In general, if you lay out fields on Windows, there will be plenty of room for the same text on a Mac. If you lay out fields on a Mac, leave a lot of extra space for the Windows display. Sometimes you can adjust the field margins depending on the platform to give the extra pixels you need to create consistent word wrap, but don't count on it always being accurate. If a user doesn't have the fonts your stack expects, there's no telling how it will look and very little you can do about it. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
I had the same problems! I got so tired of messing with it that I finally hired an outside source to create matching Mac and Windows fonts (serif, and san-serif). They look and behave EXACTLY the same on both platforms. It wasn't cheep, but my cross-platform font problems have gone away! -Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 10:20 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote: Something seems hideous about this. Is there some good reason for this or was this planned from the start to torture me? It's tempting to say it was designed just to torment you, but actually this has been the bane of desktop publishing and software design since day one. Yes. The above is code for I made the silly assumption that fonts with the same name might be similar. More similar than they are. I think 25% size variations are a lot. In general, if you lay out fields on Windows, there will be plenty of room for the same text on a Mac. If you lay out fields on a Mac, leave a lot of extra space for the Windows display. Sometimes you can adjust the field margins depending on the platform to give the extra pixels you need to create consistent word wrap, but don't count on it always being accurate. It is strange that some Windows fonts are taller, yet have a smaller width and line spacing. That means I need to adjust one direction in some cases and another in others. I had gotten into the habit of making my labels fit to text, something I realize is not what I want; I need to leave a little room for variations. If a user doesn't have the fonts your stack expects, there's no telling how it will look and very little you can do about it. I'm thinking of adding a simple alternate-font script in openBackground and others. In one case, I'm going to go to a fixed text height, but that will hurt my smaller-font displays. I expect I will bump the size by two on Windows in some applications and some controls. I need to learn about profiles. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 11:03 AM, Dan Friedman wrote: I had the same problems! I got so tired of messing with it that I finally hired an outside source to create matching Mac and Windows fonts (serif, and san-serif). They look and behave EXACTLY the same on both platforms. It wasn't cheep, but my cross-platform font problems have gone away! This confirmation is good to hear. Are these exactly the same design for each platform or do these have to be tweaked? I don't mean file format, I mean variations in metrics to account for engine or other idiosyncrasies. Dar Scott Dar Scott Consulting http://www.swcp.com/dsc/ Programming Services ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
Dan, Does this mean that you own the fonts? Are they for sale to include in other programs? Assuming they are, can the same font be attached to the application/stack and work on both Mac and Windows without the user having to install the font? Bill Vlahos On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 10:03 AM, Dan Friedman wrote: I had the same problems! I got so tired of messing with it that I finally hired an outside source to create matching Mac and Windows fonts (serif, and san-serif). They look and behave EXACTLY the same on both platforms. It wasn't cheep, but my cross-platform font problems have gone away! -Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
I had the same problems! I got so tired of "messing" with it that I finally hired an outside source to create matching Mac and Windows fonts (serif, and san-serif). They look and behave EXACTLY the same on both platforms. It wasn't cheep, but my cross-platform font problems have gone away! Ouch! Are you going to make these available to licence from you? By extension: One option is to "start using" and "stop using" a font you supply by using Tuviah Snyder's most excellent external EXT (or TSX if you go back that far). It may not solve the "exact match" display problem, but at least you can guarantee the font will be available. /H
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 05:30 PM, Dar Scott wrote: Maybe when the stack is opened I can try a bunch of fonts and sizes until formatedHeight and formatted Width of test strings look right. Or, and this is what you said, Mark, I can run experiments that create the map I need. If it is automatic my stack might look OK on exotic platforms or maybe go bananas. That's it! Get a comparison program to create the maps. I sometimes forget that computers are supposed to make life easier. I'll need to work on this. Once I have one that works I can even try to intercept htmlText issues. My experience is to use font maps of known fonts that map well. If there is no comparison that fits well then I guess I'll just let it go. I'm storing the html in the saved documents so when they are opened by the other than creator platform I will have to use the font map to rewrite the html text. Lots of fun. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
Dar Scott heeft op zaterdag, 16 aug 2003 om 23:45 het volgende geschreven: I'm getting frustrated with fonts on multiple platforms. Why don't you try OpenType fonts? They install fine on both OSX and newer Windows versions. You will not use fonts 'like' the ones on the other platforms; but simply the same ones. Both Adobe and Microsoft have plenty of them that install fine on both platforms. And OpenType gives full Unicode possibilities. Read all info at http://www.adobe.com/type/opentype/main.html and fall in love, like I did. Terry ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Portable fonts and usage recommendations needed
On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 10:36 PM, Terry Vogelaar wrote: Read all info at http://www.adobe.com/type/opentype/main.html and fall in love, like I did. Terry I was just here several hours ago searching for font maps; Installation note: OpenType fonts purchased and downloaded from the Adobe web site are in the .zip format which can be unpacked with WinZip for Windows and StuffIt Expander for Macintosh. I can't expect users to get this so that my software will look right in cross-platform file systems. Maybe I'm missing something here. Does this mean that these fonts become native to my distributed software? Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
