Re: RR Forums
on Thu, 7 Sep 2006 Dan Shafer wrote: > I love Wikis for collaboration, > but as places for people to share > thougths and ideas, they suck unless > used by pretty savvy folks and maintained > by even more savvy ones. when i had internet access from the place where i now live, i´ll participate more in the forums. Forums will be read daily by Runrev and because of this, it exist the real possibility that many good things happen faster... :) alejandro Visit my site: http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
I guess this proves that reasonable people can disagree. Or maybe it's just my gray-haired conservatism. I love Wikis for collaboration, but as places for people to share thougths and ideas, they suck unless used by pretty savvy folks and maintained by even more savvy ones. My $0.06 (inflation, you know). On 9/6/06, Sivakatirswami <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Agree: wiki better than forums for where we are now why? 1) more integrated and yet at the same time 2) more flexible. 3) could generate a huge dynamic for collaborative "open source" projects built on a Rev backbone in a way that is not possible either via mailing lists or forums. But we keep the mailing list! Until such time as the wiki proved it to be no longer required to meet the "user requirements" -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Agree: wiki better than forums for where we are now
why?
1) more integrated and yet at the same time
2) more flexible.
3) could generate a huge dynamic for collaborative
"open source" projects built on a Rev backbone in a way
that is not possible either via mailing lists or forums.
But we keep the mailing list! Until such time as the wiki
proved it to be no longer required to meet the "user requirements"
The wiki we use in house:
www.pmwiki.org
has feature(s) or "cookbook recipes" that meet nearly every expectation
voiced so far.
and, if built well, you can avoid the wiki "chaos" stigma ("just
confuses folks")
or be a burden to maintain. I mean, if you are going to moderate every post
of any system, it's the same over head.
skts
Sarah Reichelt wrote:
I'd agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the solution is to dump
the wiki and keep the forums. Wikis are not in common, widespread
usage and
although I love the little beasties, a lot of folks are just confused by
them. Plus, of course, they are apparently a lot easier to spam and
deface
and therefore require more careful monitoring and maintenance.
I too agree with David, but I would go the other way around and dump
the forums. As someone who uses MySQL only rarely, I'm always having
to look up the online docs when I do. I find the user comments at the
bottom of each entry to be extremely valuable and would love to see
something similar for Rev.
If the use-list could appear on the wiki, with the option for people
to make comments, which would then come back to the list, that would
be great. A full set of docs online, also with user comments would be
very useful to everyone.
That said, I have only explored the Galaxy & blog parts of the wiki,
so I don;t know how much of what I have suggested already exists.
Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: RR Forums
Hi Dan - the difference between Forums, blogs and wiki"s was significant - but really they are increasingly merging. Wikipedia for instance has a discuss feature for each wiki page (article) - which is basically a Forum attached to the page, other tools offer similar. Permissions allow fine grained control of which sections are open and which are under editorial control - so there is no real difference there between wiki and Forum. There is only one real difference and that is the way time is treated - both the list and a Forum deal with time as the way the contributions are indexed - with a wiki the key indexing concept is the term defined in the title of the page. This means with a well "designed" wiki - you do not have to read through a historical list and merge all the posts to find your answer. It is a collaborative document. A Forum is a segmented email list on the web and offers minor advantages over - mainly to those old fashioned folks that like to minimise email traffic (rather than search and filter). You get most of that by using: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.ide.revolution.user If the aim is to enhance the current documentation with community contributions - then a time based metaphor is not going to achieve that (that is without some serious hacking - ie a forum thread for each Transcript term... which basically ends up as a wiki with associated time based discussion thread in any case). My interest is in documentation associated with a repository of shared code - such as a library. For this you need more than a wiki - you need a wiki linked to the code - and both integrated into the RunRev IDE. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
I agree. The MYSQL docs rock. If one doesn't get the definition right away, the contributed comments and examples lower in the page will. Rev docs dearly need this feature. sqb the forums. As someone who uses MySQL only rarely, I'm always having to look up the online docs when I do. I find the user comments at the bottom of each entry to be extremely valuable and would love to see something similar for Rev. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
I'd agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the solution is to dump the wiki and keep the forums. Wikis are not in common, widespread usage and although I love the little beasties, a lot of folks are just confused by them. Plus, of course, they are apparently a lot easier to spam and deface and therefore require more careful monitoring and maintenance. I too agree with David, but I would go the other way around and dump the forums. As someone who uses MySQL only rarely, I'm always having to look up the online docs when I do. I find the user comments at the bottom of each entry to be extremely valuable and would love to see something similar for Rev. If the use-list could appear on the wiki, with the option for people to make comments, which would then come back to the list, that would be great. A full set of docs online, also with user comments would be very useful to everyone. That said, I have only explored the Galaxy & blog parts of the wiki, so I don;t know how much of what I have suggested already exists. Cheers, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
David, I'd agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the solution is to dump the wiki and keep the forums. Wikis are not in common, widespread usage and although I love the little beasties, a lot of folks are just confused by them. Plus, of course, they are apparently a lot easier to spam and deface and therefore require more careful monitoring and maintenance. What RR really needs to do, IMNSHO, is to make the list and the forums essentially functionally equivalent. One should be able to post to the forum via email (which I believe the tool they've chosen supports). Web Crossing, which in my view is the finest cmmunity platform on the planet, makes it possible to maintain exactly equivalent and parallel forums and mailing lists, giving the best of both worlds. It's not that hard. On 9/5/06, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Prediction: the RunRev Forum will not be used. The list will continue to be used. The wiki will not be used. The list will be continued to be used. Neither the Forum or the Wiki offer anything compelling over the list. They could have but they do not. The forum is half way between a wiki and the list. The list is integrated with neither. The Rev IDE is integrated with neither. The Forum will dilute the wiki, and the wiki will dilute the Forum. Users will not know where to look for what. The Forum is not integrated with the Wiki. Functionally the whole thing is a mess with all the parts counteracting each other. Still in time - things will get around to being sorted. Either the Forum or the wiki will be dropped. Most likely the wiki - for the wrong reasons. Possibly both - not because these things do not work - but because they are executed badly without an understanding of community and motivational issues. My recommendation? Dump either the Forum or the wiki. I would recommend dumping the Forum. Make sure that whichever one is chosen integrates with the list. Either by changes to the wiki being posted to the list or something better. Next work with the community to ensure that "stuff gets published". The solution is not technical it is social. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought" From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Prediction: the RunRev Forum will not be used. The list will continue to be used. The wiki will not be used. The list will be continued to be used. Neither the Forum or the Wiki offer anything compelling over the list. They could have but they do not. The forum is half way between a wiki and the list. The list is integrated with neither. The Rev IDE is integrated with neither. The Forum will dilute the wiki, and the wiki will dilute the Forum. Users will not know where to look for what. The Forum is not integrated with the Wiki. Functionally the whole thing is a mess with all the parts counteracting each other. Still in time - things will get around to being sorted. Either the Forum or the wiki will be dropped. Most likely the wiki - for the wrong reasons. Possibly both - not because these things do not work - but because they are executed badly without an understanding of community and motivational issues. My recommendation? Dump either the Forum or the wiki. I would recommend dumping the Forum. Make sure that whichever one is chosen integrates with the list. Either by changes to the wiki being posted to the list or something better. Next work with the community to ensure that "stuff gets published". The solution is not technical it is social. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: RR Forums
> This is a very cogent argument for restricted access. > Perhaps this should be explained to the new visitors so they > realize that you are serious about content and moderation > that enhances the value of the forum beyond simple message > storage in threads. Im not sure how necessary that would be. I cant think of anyone who has really complained about (other than "where is my authorization?") the restrictions of the forum except for participants on the mailing list who've been around the list for a while and don't like forums. BTW, if you were gnashing about the download issues with Poser 5, the special deal is extended through Friday :-) Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
This is a very cogent argument for restricted access. Perhaps this should be explained to the new visitors so they realize that you are serious about content and moderation that enhances the value of the forum beyond simple message storage in threads. Jim Ault Las Vegas On 9/5/06 12:34 PM, "Lynn Fredricks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Personally I also dislike the specific benefits made by Lynn >> of a forum of posts being editable or controllable. these >> lists are very self limiting and the few storms that come up >> go away quickly. a good free and open discourse is the heart >> and sole of what makes this such a wonderful list for all and >> probably one of the major supports of the product for the >> company (and i would hesitate to say w/o it, it may not have >> made it this far). a big brother approach to this kind of >> discourse (ie channeling, censoring, or editing) ruins it >> with even the threat of it. > > Storms never go away because lists are retransmitted and syndicated, often > without permission from the list owner. > > A lot of list software also doesn't allow easy editing of archives. So, for > example, if some person transmitted a bunch of illegal serial numbers or > made untrue, libelous or fraudulent statements on a mailing list its > extremely hard to clean up later. > > Best regards, > > > Lynn Fredricks > Worldwide Business Operations > Runtime Revolution, Ltd > > > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: RR Forums
> Personally I also dislike the specific benefits made by Lynn > of a forum of posts being editable or controllable. these > lists are very self limiting and the few storms that come up > go away quickly. a good free and open discourse is the heart > and sole of what makes this such a wonderful list for all and > probably one of the major supports of the product for the > company (and i would hesitate to say w/o it, it may not have > made it this far). a big brother approach to this kind of > discourse (ie channeling, censoring, or editing) ruins it > with even the threat of it. Storms never go away because lists are retransmitted and syndicated, often without permission from the list owner. A lot of list software also doesn't allow easy editing of archives. So, for example, if some person transmitted a bunch of illegal serial numbers or made untrue, libelous or fraudulent statements on a mailing list its extremely hard to clean up later. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Yes i was curious why the forums were locked event to peek at the content. As Richard stated its a big turn off for most users, you would like to know what you are signing up for before signing up. If this is to hide that some of the forums dont have many posts its not a good move for rev either since it would piss me off to go to the trouble of signing up and then find out what i wanted wasn't there yet or what i wanted. I too much prefer this list. put it in digest form and its really fast and easy to scan and i even run across a few things when scrolling through the digest email that i may not have clicked on by the title. I have used several web forums, and as others have noted, always find i quickly stop using them since having to go to the site and scan the lists in various ways (depending on the forum ui) just was a bit too much. Im probably a member of 20 email lists and they all are extremely fast and easy to keep on top of while taking relatively little time to do this each day. Personally I also dislike the specific benefits made by Lynn of a forum of posts being editable or controllable. these lists are very self limiting and the few storms that come up go away quickly. a good free and open discourse is the heart and sole of what makes this such a wonderful list for all and probably one of the major supports of the product for the company (and i would hesitate to say w/o it, it may not have made it this far). a big brother approach to this kind of discourse (ie channeling, censoring, or editing) ruins it with even the threat of it. Jeffrey Reynolds On Sep 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The current forum is apparently still being set up. For example, unlike most product forums out there, it's not possible to even read the posts at the Rev forum until after you've submitted your personal data and wait to have it human-verified. The readers there have overwhelmingly favored adhering to traditional convention by at least allowing read access for guests, so it seems reasonable that'll be set up as the system gets fleshed out. Adding an email interface would seem almost as simple to set up as the system moves toward completion. I can verify this. I signed up the other day, and am still awaiting my "human verification" part. I was curious about the forum dedicated to adventure gaming, as that is my current project. I have no idea if the forum even has activity. But it seemed worth looking into. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Lynn Fredricks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Give it a try now. that works now :-) thanks! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: RR Forums
> how much time it takes to get registered? > > oddly, my username (simply "dom") is in the member list -- > but my password is refused, and when I click on "lost > password" I am answered that I am NOT registered! Give it a try now. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Dom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > by the way, I cannot yet access to the forums... how much time it takes to get registered? oddly, my username (simply "dom") is in the member list -- but my password is refused, and when I click on "lost password" I am answered that I am NOT registered! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
At 7:19 AM -0700 9/4/06, Richard Gaskin wrote: The current forum is apparently still being set up. For example, unlike most product forums out there, it's not possible to even read the posts at the Rev forum until after you've submitted your personal data and wait to have it human-verified. The readers there have overwhelmingly favored adhering to traditional convention by at least allowing read access for guests, so it seems reasonable that'll be set up as the system gets fleshed out. Adding an email interface would seem almost as simple to set up as the system moves toward completion. I can verify this. I signed up the other day, and am still awaiting my "human verification" part. I was curious about the forum dedicated to adventure gaming, as that is my current project. I have no idea if the forum even has activity. But it seemed worth looking into. At 7:19 AM -0700 9/4/06, Richard Gaskin wrote: But even when the email interface is added, it would be incomplete without also including the knowledge base that this community has created here over the years. Perhaps the most empowering part of the Rev community is being able to drop into a search of this list's archives and know that I can find almost any answer to any topic, algorithms for every need, valuable code snippets, tips and tricks for working with the IDE, etc. The archives are a godsend. I often look there for answers. So I echo your sentiments :-) Breakfast is ready, must go Shari -- Gypsy King Software Mac and Windows shareware games http://www.gypsyware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Sarah Reichelt wrote: When they acquire an email facility, I will get the forum postings sent to me and hopefully, I will be able to reply to postings by email too. Until then, I will not be particiapting in the forums, I'm in the same boat. I just don't have time to mess with a forum/web interface. I tried to read it a few times and it took forever to get through even just a few messages. I tried to post once and simply could not type and edit in the tiny box they give you. I finally ended up typing my message in BBEdit and pasting it into the miniscule text area. I could not get the tags to work, so my message was plain text. That is way too much work for anyone with a life. When there is an email interface I will participate. The difficulty of reading and posting to the forum as it is currently set up makes it impossible for me to use. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
But if you make your living with Rev it's really helpful to have all posts come into your awareness, even if just in the convenient digest mode. Software pros are busy people; using push rather than hunt-and-pull keeps a broader range of relevant info flowing past the eyeballs who need to see it. I think this is the key to my problem with the forums. I like to be able to scan all the posts as emails, without having to plod my way through a maze of folders & sub-folders. I can scan the emails quickly for anything that interests me and search the archives easily, but the forums don't allow such ease of use. When they acquire an email facility, I will get the forum postings sent to me and hopefully, I will be able to reply to postings by email too. Until then, I will not be particiapting in the forums, Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Lynn- Monday, September 4, 2006, 8:09:36 AM, you wrote: > - Articles/writing can be organized more topically than in mailing lists. > Sure, there are threads in mailing lists, but that doesn't tie together all > threads on a particular subject. > - Forums allow post-posting editing/reorganizing by the writer and by the > moderator/admin. > - Forums allow a form of communal segmentation if that is desirable. If all > you want to do is hang on the K-12 forum, then you can hang there with > others that care about it. > - Forums are more territorial than mailing lists and that brings with it a > few benefits to the forum owner. > I recognize there are downsides to forums, too. Thank you. I'm more oriented toward the mailing list approach, and as Richard Gaskin points out, I appreciate having all posts come my way even if I decide to ignore them. But you have laid out here the first logically compelling rationalization I've seen for the advantages of a web forum. I'd still like to have the phpBB email option enabled on the rev forum, but now I'm looking forward to joining up. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
hmmm, seems this is a sensitive area. Well, I certainly never meant to imply that the list should go away! For Heaven's Sake -- No! As an on-going integrated knowledge base it is possibly *the* most important user resource that Revolution has going for it and vies with the documentation itself as a mission critical for new people. once a newbie realizes he can access tools to search the lists, it's a big time gateway to not re-inventing the wheel and feeling confident that "Yes, i can do it, just look at these resources!" Vs saying "Oh gosh, this is so far over my head... forget it..." Also, to be more accurate, the forums at Expert's Exchange are separate by virtue of being separate disciplines. The discussion about Apache web admin has nothing to do with the discussion about CSS. But within the field of CSS we don't have different forums: like one forum for CSS Design and one forum for CSS Rules and another forum for Positioning with CSS-- that would be nuts. For Revolution, one would be hard put to define any separate "disciplines" that really warranted forums. Especially at this stage... Also as one who is an "amateur programmer" despite years of xtalk I don't consider myself an expert, and I'm not sure that the distinction between "newbie" and "expert" is a useful one in any framework in terms of using that distinction to "chop up" the discourse through some architecture that puts hard walls between them. At Expert's Exchange the entire model is just the other way round: newbies and non-expert's are in direct relationship with experts in the same "field" of discourse. To lose this will be a disservice to new people, who are lurkers for the most part, but will spot key things in the discourse of professionals that spur them on, give them ideas, hope solutions etc... even if they never post themselves. Right now the list is the only place this "silent" interaction can occur with such "unfettered" dynamism. If you cut off newbies from the discourse of expert's, the result will be that they find it hard to grow and possibly even leave the product. It would be a major strategic error for any company. Richard Gaskin wrote: Sivakatirswami wrote: Scale: I don't know how many of you are members of Expert's Exchange, (EE) but with 3 Million + members, the idea of getting a mailing digests from EE with daily posts by all members is clearly insane. A forum is the only option. Perhaps, but even if the current growth rate was estimated unrealistically high, it would be a loong time before the RunRev audience reached millions of email list subscribers. Long before then, the audience who enjoys email discussion forums would have organically broken into smaller SIGs; we see some of this even now in the Rev world (see the Links page at RevJournal.com). As we've seen with the Rev crowd, most communities are organically self-regulating. Same with Apple or Adobe. I once joined an Apache mailing list and was so overwhelmed with posts on the list that I had to ask my question, got an answer and unsubscribe asap! Wished it was a forumnow I don't use that list at all, I ask apache questions at EE... for this very reason. It's also worth noting that while Apple maintains a web forum for their casual consumer audience, they also maintain discussion lists for their developers. Developer needs are more intensive than consumer's. With Rev's entry-level product now priced way below industry averages at $49, it would appear in price and design to address a more casual consumer audience, implying of course a shift away from conversing with the pro-dev audience which had focused their message while the company had made only pro tools. How a small company will be able to handle this broadly disparate messaging schism will be interesting to see as it plays out, but the current organic result of a list for serious users and a web forum for more casual users seems consistent with your observation of highly successful companies like Apple. We're not there yet with Rev (scale wise) but maybe soon... so the framework is in place. We can hope, as a good many of us "old-timers" have been working hard to help make happen for many years. As it does, however, there would seem no reason why any forum couldn't be available in both email and web form. Anything less seems a little odd, a touch behind the times for a technology vendor. The current forum is apparently still being set up. For example, unlike most product forums out there, it's not possible to even read the posts at the Rev forum until after you've submitted your personal data and wait to have it human-verified. The readers there have overwhelmingly favored adhering to traditional convention by at least allowing read access for guests, so it seems reasonable that'll be set up as the system gets fleshed out. Adding an email interface would seem almost as simple to set up as the system moves toward comp
RE: RR Forums
> > otherwise you are limited to the home page... > > I guess I phrased the question badly :-( > > What is the benefit of the forums? >From a user perspective, forums have a number of benefits: - Articles/writing can be organized more topically than in mailing lists. Sure, there are threads in mailing lists, but that doesn't tie together all threads on a particular subject. - Forums allow post-posting editing/reorganizing by the writer and by the moderator/admin. - Forums allow a form of communal segmentation if that is desirable. If all you want to do is hang on the K-12 forum, then you can hang there with others that care about it. - Forums are more territorial than mailing lists and that brings with it a few benefits to the forum owner. I recognize there are downsides to forums, too. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Sivakatirswami wrote: Scale: I don't know how many of you are members of Expert's Exchange, (EE) but with 3 Million + members, the idea of getting a mailing digests from EE with daily posts by all members is clearly insane. A forum is the only option. Perhaps, but even if the current growth rate was estimated unrealistically high, it would be a loong time before the RunRev audience reached millions of email list subscribers. Long before then, the audience who enjoys email discussion forums would have organically broken into smaller SIGs; we see some of this even now in the Rev world (see the Links page at RevJournal.com). As we've seen with the Rev crowd, most communities are organically self-regulating. Same with Apple or Adobe. I once joined an Apache mailing list and was so overwhelmed with posts on the list that I had to ask my question, got an answer and unsubscribe asap! Wished it was a forumnow I don't use that list at all, I ask apache questions at EE... for this very reason. It's also worth noting that while Apple maintains a web forum for their casual consumer audience, they also maintain discussion lists for their developers. Developer needs are more intensive than consumer's. With Rev's entry-level product now priced way below industry averages at $49, it would appear in price and design to address a more casual consumer audience, implying of course a shift away from conversing with the pro-dev audience which had focused their message while the company had made only pro tools. How a small company will be able to handle this broadly disparate messaging schism will be interesting to see as it plays out, but the current organic result of a list for serious users and a web forum for more casual users seems consistent with your observation of highly successful companies like Apple. We're not there yet with Rev (scale wise) but maybe soon... so the framework is in place. We can hope, as a good many of us "old-timers" have been working hard to help make happen for many years. As it does, however, there would seem no reason why any forum couldn't be available in both email and web form. Anything less seems a little odd, a touch behind the times for a technology vendor. The current forum is apparently still being set up. For example, unlike most product forums out there, it's not possible to even read the posts at the Rev forum until after you've submitted your personal data and wait to have it human-verified. The readers there have overwhelmingly favored adhering to traditional convention by at least allowing read access for guests, so it seems reasonable that'll be set up as the system gets fleshed out. Adding an email interface would seem almost as simple to set up as the system moves toward completion. But even when the email interface is added, it would be incomplete without also including the knowledge base that this community has created here over the years. Perhaps the most empowering part of the Rev community is being able to drop into a search of this list's archives and know that I can find almost any answer to any topic, algorithms for every need, valuable code snippets, tips and tricks for working with the IDE, etc. If that ever went away the community would lose its most valuable asset. But rest easy: there are more than half a dozen maintained, and there's no reason why the addition of any new forum should have any affect on the knowledge base anyway, so other than earthquake or other catastrophe the backups will never be needed. Usage needs: I uses a great tool called "MPEG2 Works 4" for drag and drop processing of muxed video and export to QT. But I really don't what to be on a mailing list of video nerds: my needs and interest are very narrow. Serbian's forum for MPEG2 Works 4 is perfect, I need help, ask a question, set "watch this to one" get an answer, I'm notified by email that my question is answered... with a clickable link back to the forum, to my thread. True, for the more casual users who would seem to reflect the company's shift toward consumer products, a dip-in-as-needed forum would be helpful. But if you make your living with Rev it's really helpful to have all posts come into your awareness, even if just in the convenient digest mode. Software pros are busy people; using push rather than hunt-and-pull keeps a broader range of relevant info flowing past the eyeballs who need to see it. The nice thing is that there's no reason the forums should need to be any sort of either-or proposition. Each is good for its own reasons, and they make a great "also" for one another. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url t
Re: RR Forums
Sarah, One angle(s) on forums is: scale and user usage needs levels. Scale: I don't know how many of you are members of Expert's Exchange, (EE) but with 3 Million + members, the idea of getting a mailing digests from EE with daily posts by all members is clearly insane. A forum is the only option. Same with Apple or Adobe. I once joined an Apache mailing list and was so overwhelmed with posts on the list that I had to ask my question, got an answer and unsubscribe asap! Wished it was a forumnow I don't use that list at all, I ask apache questions at EE... for this very reason. We're not there yet with Rev (scale wise) but maybe soon... so the framework is in place. Usage needs: I uses a great tool called "MPEG2 Works 4" for drag and drop processing of muxed video and export to QT. But I really don't what to be on a mailing list of video nerds: my needs and interest are very narrow. Serbian's forum for MPEG2 Works 4 is perfect, I need help, ask a question, set "watch this one" get an answer, I'm notified by email that my question is answered... with a clickable link back to the forum, to my thread. Sivakatirswami Dom wrote: Sarah Reichelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I realise that was meant as a joke, but seriously, what ARE the benfits of membership? to gain access to the forums ;-) otherwise you are limited to the home page... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Om shanti (In Peace) Sivakatirswami www.himalayanacademy.com Get Hinduism Today Digital Edition. It's Free! http://www.hinduismtoday.com/digital/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Sarah Reichelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I guess I phrased the question badly :-( please, take note of the smiley ;-) by the way, I cannot yet access to the forums... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
On 9/4/06, Dom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sarah Reichelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I realise that was meant as a joke, but seriously, what ARE the > benfits of membership? to gain access to the forums ;-) otherwise you are limited to the home page... I guess I phrased the question badly :-( What is the benefit of the forums? Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
Sarah Reichelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I realise that was meant as a joke, but seriously, what ARE the > benfits of membership? to gain access to the forums ;-) otherwise you are limited to the home page... ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: RR Forums
On 9/4/06, Lynn Fredricks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > After some digging, I saw it (a small button in a corner ;-)) > > I saw also that I was not a member, so I registered :-) I > remember I read some time ago the announce for RR forums, but > I neglected to register... The benefits of membership :-) I realise that was meant as a joke, but seriously, what ARE the benfits of membership? I am a member, but I find a forum far to time-consuming & tedious, so after my inital explorations, I never go there. I would be interested to hear if there is any real benefit to joining the forum. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: RR Forums
> After some digging, I saw it (a small button in a corner ;-)) > > I saw also that I was not a member, so I registered :-) I > remember I read some time ago the announce for RR forums, but > I neglected to register... The benefits of membership :-) Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
