Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - PostgreSQL for OSX
I had seen that before, but the install is still via the shell, whereas the other one is the more familiar OS X install. Cheers, Luis. Hershel Fisch wrote: On 9/28/06 11:47 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lookee what I found! http://web.mac.com/dru_satori/iWeb/PostgreSQLforMac/Welcome.html Cheers, Luis. Check this out as well, http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/welcome.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - PostgreSQL for OSX
On 9/28/06 11:47 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lookee what I found! http://web.mac.com/dru_satori/iWeb/PostgreSQLforMac/Welcome.html Cheers, Luis. Check this out as well, http://www.entropy.ch/software/macosx/welcome.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Bill, As someone who has in fact used FileMaker to create a full-blown application (though not of the standalone variety) on several occasions, I can attest to at least much of what you say. My experience is all FMPro 5.5 and earlier, so it is seriously outdated, but I always found FM to be really great up to a point and then really difficult or impossible to get beyond some wall or another. Deployment was always an issue for me even though I did spend a LOT of time trying to understand and use the Web deployment approach. I ended up contracting with an outfit that hosted FM solutions on their servers and that not only cost way more than I thought it should, it was complex as all get-out. It was nice to read a clearly knowledgeable update of the FM situation vis a vis building database apps in FM vs. Rev. I appreciate the time you took to create such a detailed and helpful response. Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Bill, thank you for the honest and accurate description of the differences between RR and FM Pro and the detail concerning the capabilities of FM Pro. I specially like the idea of the Robot commanded via RR. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Dan, Thanks for your comments! To be honest, I let FileMaker Pro gather dust on my shelf during the 4.0 - 6.0 years because that point you describe of hitting the wall came all too early. However, version 7.0 of FileMaker truly re-invigorated the product. And, version 8.5 (the current release) is simply amazing. The current version of FileMaker is truly relational. It has a built-in, drag-and-drop interface for defining relationships between tables (which now can all reside in a single file). ScriptMaker has been beefed up considerably. The Instant Web Publishing scheme has been totally re-invented and now works almost exactly like a full FileMaker client would, with multiple layouts and greatly expanded scripting support. The Advanced (or developer) version now has a debugger and variable watcher, as well as powerful, recursive custom functions. Most all of the restrictions on field-sizes and file-sizes have been removed or increased to levels you won't encounter in the real world. One of my current FileMaker Pro projects uses IWP to service a nationally-recognized hospital with more than 8,000 staff. Any one of the staffers can log into the system using the password they already use to access other intranet resources at the hospital. It looks and feels just like any other web-based tool they might use, if not a little nicer. It is hosted externally on a secure server for a cost of $40/month. So, in this scenario there was no expensive up-front purchase of FileMaker Server Advanced (we're essentially renting it for less than $500/yr), and no client software to distribute and update. I didn't have to write a single line of HTML/XML/PHP/JavaScript code; it's all handled by FileMaker. The entire solution took less than 80 hours to build. Minor changes to the system -- such a adding a new field or a new report -- can be implemented by the client on their own. And other groups at the hospital can easily interface with the server for any custom work they need to do. Contrast this with a program I wrote in Rev to interact with G4tv's SpockMarket game. This program fetches stock values from an XML data source as quickly as once every second. It generates real-time graphs of stock values and lets people make trades manually or based on predetermined criteria. The whole thing has a futuristic look and feel with multiple windows, custom window shapes, sounds, and animation. (It's a game, after all!) Because I was only using a fraction of what a full database would do, I was able to get everything I needed coded in Rev itself. (For example, there is no need to print anything.) Nevertheless, I still had to roll my own table objects as well as build certain database-like sorting/selection routines. This was non-trivial work, and took a lot of debugging to get right. I hope this illustrates why you might select Rev in one situation and FileMaker in another. Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill, As someone who has in fact used FileMaker to create a full-blown application (though not of the standalone variety) on several occasions, I can attest to at least much of what you say. My experience is all FMPro 5.5 and earlier, so it is seriously outdated, but I always found FM to be really great up to a point and then really difficult or impossible to get beyond some wall or another. Deployment was always an issue for me even though I did spend a LOT of time trying to understand and use the Web deployment approach. I ended up contracting with an outfit that hosted FM solutions on their servers and that not only cost way more than I thought it should, it was complex as all get-out. It was nice to read a clearly knowledgeable update of the FM situation vis a vis building database apps in FM vs. Rev. I appreciate the time you took to create such a detailed and helpful response. Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Javier, I was on vacation the last week, so I'm coming into your thread a bit late. I'm not surprised that you received a lot of pro-Rev advice... it IS a Revolution list, after all! However, I don't believe it's a clear-cut answer. The strength of Rev is in the total control you have over the user interface. You can't script FileMaker to respond to mouseover's for example. Both platforms allow you to create royalty-free standalones. But FileMaker doesn't allow you to remove certain interface elements like the zoom in/out mountains, the Browse/Layout/Find popup menu, and the closing made with FileMaker logo. FileMaker standalones cannot connect to FileMaker Server, but you can use (slower) ODBC connections or the new Web Viewer control. Rev is also the better choice for real-time monitoring of values... for example in a stock-trading program. Because Rev is an open-ended development platform, the only real limitations are those of your programming skill. You can write a graphing module or interface to a robot that irons and folds your clothes if you want. The strength of FileMaker is in how much work is already done for you. Just look at the process of defining tables, fields, and relationships. That doesn't exist in Rev. FileMaker lets you tick a couple check boxes to validate field entries, control adding and deleting related records, format fields on a layout, control access privileges, etc. It has a built-in web server that faithfully replicates your layouts. Pick any FileMaker module you like: Yes, you could build it in Revolution. No, it would not be as polished, sophisticated, or functional (in this lifetime). Not unless you had a whole crew of developers working on it. FileMaker represents thousands of hours of coding and testing of its database tools. Like most things, more freedom means more responsibility. You mentioned cost as a motivation for switching. Have you factored in that it may take you ten to twenty times longer to code the solution in Rev, even if you have a tool to ease the conversion to SQL? Do your clients ever need to make small changes, such as adding a new report, on their own? It's much more likely they will be able to do this without assistance with FileMaker than with a custom app built in Rev. Also, have you looked into the options for FileMaker fully? - Instant Web Publishing from FileMaker Server Advanced lets you have up to 100 *simultaneous* connections from the web (zero-cost clients). Yes, IWP does have some limitations, but it will take you less time to work around them than it would to build it all from scratch. - Custom web publishing with FileMaker Server Advanced will let you use industry-standard protocols/tools (for example, PHP and XML) to access databases from a web browser -- without a meaningful concurrent-client limit. This lets you do all the heavy listing database work with FileMaker Pro (database schema, prototyping) and write nice, AJAX-enabled front ends at very low per-client cost. - FileMaker has some really attractive options for bundling full versions with solutions. You don't say how many copies are needed, but it would cost you a fraction of the full retail version. - Are you a FileMaker Solutions Alliance member? Membership gives you some great benefits including volume licensing/resale pricing, access to the FileMaker-monitored developer mailing list, and free copies of the software for yourself. Plus you can get some great co-marketing support from FileMaker, like being listed in the directory that FileMaker supplies with each retail copy of the software. Being listed as a FileMaker developer in this directory can help you get a lot more business, and Rev doesn't have anything like it. Just looking over some of the posts here, it seems the comments on FileMaker are based on versions two to four years old and older. Or from people who haven't built full-scale solutions in FileMaker. Make sure you know the full capabilities and cost implications of the current versions of FileMaker before you make your final decision. Javier Miranda V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/29/06 3:44 AM, Josh Mellicker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Josh, 3. If you include one or more of the MySQL drivers in your non-GPL application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a commercial license for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library. Does this mean Runtime Revolution, Inc., pays MySQL, since they include drivers? But it does seem Rick is correct, that distributing a standalone that includes drivers needs a license- or am I misreading it? Yes, if you use EVEN mySQL client/driver then you already need pay them!! Even if mySQL server itself is on host provider. Actually should pay both: Revolution *and* you because your app also include driver. ** Only important point -- this works it seems only for mySQL 5.0 and newer. * This is why you can note that even host providers do not switch to 5.0 actively. * This is why mySQL company about month ago have claim about stop of support of 3.x and 4.x products, and even going to remove them from download site. * also not bad to remember that few months ago Oracle have get ownership of InnoDB and even BerklyDB. * my prediction is - that Oracle will try make some deal with Postgre also in future. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
True, but in that instance I'd push it all over an encrypted channel. Especially so if it's an externally hosted database. Cheers, Luis. Josh Mellicker wrote: On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:26 AM, Luis wrote: Hiya, You have to be careful with some providers, quite a few of them will not allow remote connections, only local access (such as using php on the server) to server the data. Cheers, Luis. If your site has cPanel, there is a section where you can add access hosts by IP, in a box that also says: Host (% wildcard is allowed): the % means any remote client can connect (if they know the username, password and domain) I examined security issues, but if someone can sniff this info they can also sniff the info you're passing to serverside middleware and so I don't see how this is any more insecure than other options. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
One more on the subject: Why not install FM Pro Server and then access it via ODBC with Standalones in the client machines? Does it work? I have been able to connect to MySQL with RR's Query Builder but I couldn't do the same to connect to FM Pro with ODBC, I have the drivers and the ODBC Administrator (All this on Mac OS X 10.4), I created the DSN and nada. Ideas please... Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
all new Dreamhost MySQL connections are v5.0 or greater. They dumped 4.x over a half year ago. * This is why you can note that even host providers do not switch to 5.0 actively. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
all new Dreamhost MySQL connections are v5.0 or greater. They dumped 4.x over a half year ago. * This is why you can note that even host providers do not switch to 5.0 actively. I share Stephen's enthusiasm for DreamHost. Several Rev users have gotten RevCGIs to run there. Also, they have a large number of one-click installs of popular web applications that are just wonderful. You can get an unlimited number of domains per account for very little. One caveat is that some web apps have security sensitive parts deactivated. Its possible to compile and upload your own version of PHP (for example) and get around this in some cases. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks Worldwide Business Operations Runtime Revolution, Ltd ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
3. If you include one or more of the MySQL drivers in your non-GPL application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a commercial license for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library. Does this mean Runtime Revolution, Inc., pays MySQL, since they include drivers? But it does seem Rick is correct, that distributing a standalone that includes drivers needs a license- or am I misreading it? I have two reads on MySQL licensing; I have a certain bias because of my relationship with Paradigma when wearing my Paradigma hat, so be warned :-) The first one is that MySQL AB has tightened up their licensing a few times (granted, interpretations of the GPL have also morphed in that time) and that, based on what I have read, if you incorporate MySQL drivers in your application and its not GPL, you need to pay them. Also, if its commercial venture of any kind, you have to pay them (dig through their references to compensation); it doesn't necessarily matter if you simply tell your customer they need to download MySQL and install it yourself. I visit their website about once a month to see what they are doing with licensing, so maybe something has changed since then. The second one is, they have previously had sprinkled around their website a statement that if you arent sure if you can use it free or not, you should call them or just pay up. From feedback from others who have called, usually the answer is - pay up, and here is a plan, just for you. So the licensing confusion puts you into a position where you are encouraged to call them and enter into a negotiation of pricing. MySQL AB has greatly benefited over the years because of license confusion - a huge number of people in the world assume its free to use, but also a huge number of people don't know the difference really between public domain and GPL. Several years ago when the computer industry was just getting a handle on what GPL means, MySQL AB did a lot of suing - I don't know about now. Now Ill try to put on my Runtime hat if you can suspend disbelief :-) Support for MySQL helps Runtime, because it's a popular database system and supporting it enables customers to make choices. With my Paradigma hat on, I can agree with that - MySQL is not a horrible product, and its popular, and choice and competition in the market are good for everyone, as long as you understand and are happy with their licensing. Now with both hats: I wouldn't incorporate anything into a product if I wasn't really sure in my own head what the license means. If there was any doubt of what to incorporate into Revolution or Valentina, I would be dead set against it. If you have read MySQL's terms and are happy with them and the product, be happy :-) But, if you are relying heavily on the community to help you make a licensing decision because you cannot comprehend the license - please save yourself some heartache and sleepless nights later. Im the sort of person who will not sign anything at all unless I understand the fine print completely - mortgages, codicils, immigration papers, intellectual property licenses, everything. I don't rely on a lawyer saying yeah, you're good without some deep explanation. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software, Inc Joining Worlds of Information Deploy True Client-Server Database Solutions Royalty Free with Valentina Developer Network http://www.paradigmasoft.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
I'm not sure if I have this right. Rev includes some MySQL drivers with the package. But we can't distribute an application built using those drivers without some kind of license with MySQL inc.? is that right? I have two reads on MySQL licensing; I have a certain bias because of my relationship with Paradigma when wearing my Paradigma hat, so be warned :-) Im the sort of person who will not sign anything at all unless I understand the fine print completely - mortgages, codicils, immigration papers, intellectual property licenses, everything. I don't rely on a lawyer saying yeah, you're good without some deep explanation. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/29/06 4:45 PM, Stephen Barncard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure if I have this right. Rev includes some MySQL drivers with the package. But we can't distribute an application built using those drivers without some kind of license with MySQL inc.? is that right? Sort of... you can't distribute a non-GPLed application without a license from MySQL. This generally covers all commercial applications. In general there are (IMHO) two free uses of mySQL: (1) distributing a fully GPL-compliant application, and (2) accessing a mySQL DB at an ISP via browser-based input (or the equivalent), so that the drivers and database are fully in the hands of the ISP and there's nothing for you to distribute. I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of the licensing arrangements. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
I'm not sure if I have this right. Rev includes some MySQL drivers with the package. But we can't distribute an application built using those drivers without some kind of license with MySQL inc.? is that right? Probably yes, although I am not qualified to give legal advice :) The licensing fees that RR pays to MySQL likely cover only their distributing the drivers with their products, that is in essence your using them in Rev IDE. RR may be even exempted since they sell a development environment. Either way, the way I read it, if you produce a commercial program that you sell (that probably includes also work for hire unless clients pays MySQL) and it includes MySQL drivers or requires users to use MySQL, then you need to pay license to MySQL. It would actually be nice if RR could clarify this for us. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/30/06 1:04 AM, Ken Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/06 4:45 PM, Stephen Barncard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure if I have this right. Rev includes some MySQL drivers with the package. But we can't distribute an application built using those drivers without some kind of license with MySQL inc.? is that right? Sort of... you can't distribute a non-GPLed application without a license from MySQL. This generally covers all commercial applications. In general there are (IMHO) two free uses of mySQL: (1) distributing a fully GPL-compliant application, and (2) accessing a mySQL DB at an ISP via browser-based input (or the equivalent), so that the drivers and database are fully in the hands of the ISP and there's nothing for you to distribute. I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of the licensing arrangements. Hi Ken, This is exactly how me also understand this. Also I want add another points: MySQL commercial license require that you pay a) PER SERVER i.e. If you develop something for school or game or accounting or ... Other app that you want sale by 1000 copies you need pay them 1000 * $400 = $400,000 Although most probably exists some special volume discounts which you can obtain if call them Actually this is NORMAL for db vendors that sale DBMS SERVERS. Look on MS SQL, Oracle, Sybase. You need pay for EACH server. b) PER YEAR mySQL want that $400 per server EACH YEAR of use. c) PER APPLICATION. if you have develop 3 applications you need pay for each. actually this is masked for mySQL because of per server license D) Note, that commercial license do not say that IF you use driver but store db on some ISP host you get it for free. Commercial license says: IF your non-GPL app uses driver - you must pay. Point. - P.S. (sorry for kind of advertise, which I consider as information): Valentina have quite REVERSE nature of license for Valentina Embedded Server that was designed specially for Application Developers. Note, all Revolution, REALbasic, Director, VisualBASIC, Delphi, C#, C/C++ developers are who? Right. We all are Application developers. We all get as result of our job some .EXE. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
- P.S. (sorry for kind of advertise, which I consider as information): yes, I need to know this. Ruslan, I've gone a long way into my project. I have questions: 1. Does Valentina run the main MySQL syntax as is, or is it very different. 2. Is there a tool like CocoaMySQL (macintosh) to administer the Valentina Database? 3. You quoted a developer price for Valentina - $199 - is that for one seat, deployed on any number of applications? 4. The cost of the Valentina server - per user? sqb Valentina have quite REVERSE nature of license for Valentina Embedded Server that was designed specially for Application Developers. Note, all Revolution, REALbasic, Director, VisualBASIC, Delphi, C#, C/C++ developers are who? Right. We all are Application developers. We all get as result of our job some .EXE. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/29/06 6:12 PM, Ruslan Zasukhin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In general there are (IMHO) two free uses of mySQL: (1) distributing a fully GPL-compliant application, and (2) accessing a mySQL DB at an ISP via browser-based input (or the equivalent), so that the drivers and database are fully in the hands of the ISP and there's nothing for you to distribute. I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of the licensing arrangements. Hi Ken, MySQL commercial license require that you pay a) PER SERVER b) PER YEAR c) PER APPLICATION. Note that the license is usually negotiated with the customer, so it may end up being one, two, or all of the above, depending. MySQL AB, although they are (as I think Lynn put it) profiting on the confusion of the licensing arrangements, they are also quite flexible in their licensing and are willing to adjust things based on the specific parameters of the application being distributed. (At least, that's how they have been to me.) As always, it's a right tool for the right job kind of argument. There are many situations where Valentina/PostgreSQL/mySQL/SQLLite/(fill in your favorite DB) doesn't fit the bill. Just my 2 cents from personal experience, Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
D) Note, that commercial license do not say that IF you use driver but store db on some ISP host you get it for free. Commercial license says: IF your non-GPL app uses driver - you must pay. Point. Yes, this is how dreamhost lets you have all those nice apps - like Ken said, you don't lay your hands on much of anything. P.S. (sorry for kind of advertise, which I consider as information): Valentina have quite REVERSE nature of license for Valentina Embedded Server that was designed specially for Application Developers. And there you have it - the Valentina license was designed to compete with mySQL :-) Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software, Inc Joining Worlds of Information Deploy True Client-Server Database Solutions Royalty Free with Valentina Developer Network http://www.paradigmasoft.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
In general there are (IMHO) two free uses of mySQL: (1) distributing a fully GPL-compliant application, and (2) accessing a mySQL DB at an ISP via browser-based input (or the equivalent), so that the drivers and database are fully in the hands of the ISP and there's nothing for you to distribute. I may be wrong, but this is my understanding of the licensing arrangements. Im not sure #1 doesn't have additional strings attached, but that's been my read. However #2 is my understanding as well, allowing jo blow to set up Wordpress, Joomla and other goodies without worry. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software, Inc Joining Worlds of Information Deploy True Client-Server Database Solutions Royalty Free with Valentina Developer Network http://www.paradigmasoft.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Note that the license is usually negotiated with the customer, so it may end up being one, two, or all of the above, depending. MySQL AB, although they are (as I think Lynn put it) profiting on the confusion of the licensing arrangements, they are also quite flexible in their licensing and are willing to adjust things based on the specific parameters of the application being distributed. (At least, that's how they have been to me.) That's true - but they cleverly put you into a situation where you have to come to them. Dang, why didn't I think of that first?;-) As always, it's a right tool for the right job kind of argument. There are many situations where Valentina/PostgreSQL/mySQL/SQLLite/(fill in your favorite DB) doesn't fit the bill. Just my 2 cents from personal experience, The market is packed full of dbs so developers have lots of choices. Valentina thrives because it has a unique underlying technology - so choose it if you fall in love with its unique features. The downside is that we don't wave the GPL flag. In a general sense though, I strongly urge anyone who has to make a choice to think about where your product/company is going to be down the road. If you ported to Revolution from another environment, you know that can be painful. Moving your customers to a new db back end also comes with its own special brand of pain. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software, Inc Joining Worlds of Information Deploy True Client-Server Database Solutions Royalty Free with Valentina Developer Network http://www.paradigmasoft.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Hiya, You have to be careful with some providers, quite a few of them will not allow remote connections, only local access (such as using php on the server) to server the data. Cheers, Luis. Ken Ray wrote: On 9/27/06 11:06 PM, Josh Mellicker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With my library, each field and popup menu has a script like: ON mouseUp updateMe END mouseUp That's it! the updateMe handler gets information about what to update, and what format, from custom properties attached to the object. Hey Josh! If you really want to go wild, you can create a frontScript that has a mouseUp handler that executes updateMe so that the fields and popup menus don't need any script at all! :-) And the cost, after buying a Revolution license, is $0 for potentially up to millions of simultaneous users (our hosting service handles the MySQL licensing issues). Nice... Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Hi there, Postgres is FREE. MySQL is not. If you read the license carefully this becomes very clear. I would never recommend giving some other company control of my company's database. You have no idea what they might do with the information, and you can't say for sure that you are really protecting your customers' data or privacy. In my opinion, If you can get Rev to work with Postgres, that would be the best, and least expensive solution. FileMaker is good for making quick interfaces and for ease of use, but they keep wanting to charge users more and more money for a product that seems to get slower with each release. I don't believe in companies who trick you into using their product, and then raise the cost of using their product once you've married yourself to them. I'll probably get flamed for this one! lol Rick ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
I didn't think it needed an External. Looking at revOpenDatabase it looks like the support is 'native' (I think that's what I also saw in the features of Rev Studio on the RunRev site). Cheers, Luis. Richard Gaskin wrote: Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 How much is the Valentina external for Revolution? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - PostgreSQL for OSX
Lookee what I found! http://web.mac.com/dru_satori/iWeb/PostgreSQLforMac/Welcome.html Cheers, Luis. Rick Harrison wrote: Hi there, Postgres is FREE. MySQL is not. If you read the license carefully this becomes very clear. I would never recommend giving some other company control of my company's database. You have no idea what they might do with the information, and you can't say for sure that you are really protecting your customers' data or privacy. In my opinion, If you can get Rev to work with Postgres, that would be the best, and least expensive solution. FileMaker is good for making quick interfaces and for ease of use, but they keep wanting to charge users more and more money for a product that seems to get slower with each release. I don't believe in companies who trick you into using their product, and then raise the cost of using their product once you've married yourself to them. I'll probably get flamed for this one! lol Rick ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Luis wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 How much is the Valentina external for Revolution? I didn't think it needed an External. Looking at revOpenDatabase it looks like the support is 'native' (I think that's what I also saw in the features of Rev Studio on the RunRev site). The Rev engine has no direct built-in support for database connectivity. That functionality is provided through libraries/externals. Regardless of the extensibility mechanism at play, Valentina itself is a commercial product and requires a licensing fee. As long as Ruslan cited SQLite's cost it would be helpful to know Valentina's as well. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Ah! I see them now, in Externals/Database Drivers. Cheers, Luis. Richard Gaskin wrote: Luis wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 How much is the Valentina external for Revolution? I didn't think it needed an External. Looking at revOpenDatabase it looks like the support is 'native' (I think that's what I also saw in the features of Rev Studio on the RunRev site). The Rev engine has no direct built-in support for database connectivity. That functionality is provided through libraries/externals. Regardless of the extensibility mechanism at play, Valentina itself is a commercial product and requires a licensing fee. As long as Ruslan cited SQLite's cost it would be helpful to know Valentina's as well. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
I know Dreamhost allows remote use - with a connection to a single IP, verified at the server. That can be the Wan side of a router and will work for all users in a LAN. By the way I just put the latest BETA Mac version of MySQL 5.1.1 on my Powerbook so I can develop without being connected to a network. I was prepared for a long Terminal session. I was quite surprised. For those with reluctance to the command line, you'll find you don't have to use Terminal at all installing the latest versions. It features a Slick installer and a second installer for starting MySQL on startup. Finally the MySQL administrator application is 'totally mac' and is well-executed. I'm sure the other platform versions are equally good. You might have to login as ROOT a little bit to get it working. As far as licensing, it seemed to be freely offered on the MySQL site. They can come and get me if there's a problem. However, I would have paid up to $50 for my personal copy if asked. Hiya, You have to be careful with some providers, quite a few of them will not allow remote connections, only local access (such as using php on the server) to server the data. Cheers, Luis. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Hi Richard, Luis wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 How much is the Valentina external for Revolution? I didn't think it needed an External. Looking at revOpenDatabase it looks like the support is 'native' (I think that's what I also saw in the features of Rev Studio on the RunRev site). The Rev engine has no direct built-in support for database connectivity. That functionality is provided through libraries/ externals. Regardless of the extensibility mechanism at play, Valentina itself is a commercial product and requires a licensing fee. As long as Ruslan cited SQLite's cost it would be helpful to know Valentina's as well. That's 199 US $ for each platform (Mac and Win) or 299 $ for both. As seen on their website. Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/28/06 6:58 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luis, Hi Richard, I didn't think it needed an External. Looking at revOpenDatabase it looks like the support is 'native' (I think that's what I also saw in the features of Rev Studio on the RunRev site). The Rev engine has no direct built-in support for database connectivity. That functionality is provided through libraries/externals. Regardless of the extensibility mechanism at play, Valentina itself is a commercial product and requires a licensing fee. As long as Ruslan cited SQLite's cost it would be helpful to know Valentina's as well. 1) Valentina price is not secret :-) just visit our site: http://www.paradigmasoft.com 2) I have mention price of SQLLite external only because somebody have point SQL Lite is free. Engine yes. Connectivity not. Even if SQL Lite connectivity will be free, this not change things. Who need work with middle and big dbs usually come to Valentina. 3) Valentina for Revolution have 2 parts a) dbvalentina2 -- this is REVDB support. b) V4REV.bundle -- this is external with much more rich native Valentina API You can use in your app BOTH this ways in fact, And in 2.4.2 we have provide brige between then in both sides. I.e. You can create db using REVDB, later get its dbRef and use it with all other Valentina methods when you want advanced features. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On Sep 28, 2006, at 1:26 AM, Luis wrote: Hiya, You have to be careful with some providers, quite a few of them will not allow remote connections, only local access (such as using php on the server) to server the data. Cheers, Luis. If your site has cPanel, there is a section where you can add access hosts by IP, in a box that also says: Host (% wildcard is allowed): the % means any remote client can connect (if they know the username, password and domain) I examined security issues, but if someone can sniff this info they can also sniff the info you're passing to serverside middleware and so I don't see how this is any more insecure than other options. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:09 PM, Ken Ray wrote: Hey Josh! If you really want to go wild, you can create a frontScript that has a mouseUp handler that executes updateMe so that the fields and popup menus don't need any script at all! Ken, I DO really want to go wild! :D ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On Sep 28, 2006, at 8:42 AM, Rick Harrison wrote: Hi there, Postgres is FREE. MySQL is not. If you read the license carefully this becomes very clear. Here's what I found on http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/ commercial-license.html: 1. If you include the MySQL server with an application that is not licensed under the GPL or GPL-compatible license, you need a commercial license for the MySQL server. Since I'm not including the server, N/A 2. If you develop and distribute a commercial application and as part of utilizing your application, the end-user must download a copy of MySQL; for each derivative work, you (or, in some cases, your end- user) need a commercial license for the MySQL server and/or MySQL client libraries. Since no MySQL downloads are needed, N/A 3. If you include one or more of the MySQL drivers in your non-GPL application (so that your application can run with MySQL), you need a commercial license for the driver(s) in question. The MySQL drivers currently include an ODBC driver, a JDBC driver and the C language library. Does this mean Runtime Revolution, Inc., pays MySQL, since they include drivers? But it does seem Rick is correct, that distributing a standalone that includes drivers needs a license- or am I misreading it? I would never recommend giving some other company control of my company's database. You have no idea what they might do with the information, and you can't say for sure that you are really protecting your customers' data or privacy. We host with ServerMatrix (http://www.servermatrix.com/), they are very secure and trustworthy. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Javier, Keep in mind that MySQL is not free for commercial applications and that the licensing involved is at least confusing (at least it was to me and I have a law degree!). That said, the Rev solution can look any number of ways. Perhaps the most common usage is to design a Revolution desktop application that accesses the database on the server directly. There's no inherent need for a Rev stack on the server (though you can go that route and use CGI if you like; I don't recommend that because Rev CGIs are not multi-threaded and therefore not as useful for apps that need to scale). Another approach is to create the server-side app as a MySQL or PostgreSQL (which IS free) database interfaced by PHP scripts running on the server, then write your Rev client-side application to interact with the PHP rather than with the SQL database directly. Many people who use this approach say it's more stable and faster than direct interaciton with the database but that situation may have improved enough recently not to be an issue. In any case, speaking as a former FM developer and consultant, the *cost* and *performance* of deploying a solution as a Rev app rather than a FileMaker app will prove significant improvements. I wouldn't hesitate to switch if I were you, particularly if the application is intended to be around for some time and maintained. On 9/26/06, Javier Miranda V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/ software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
Hiya, Any ideas what the storage capacity is for Valentina? I did a little research on FM Pro, apparently it can handle a few Terabytes (although I only managed to test it with a 3GB database, performance not being too bad). I've been curious about Valentina, especially the fact that you can both embed and remote the database (same with FM but the licencing limitations then come in). Valentina seems to be more open to external app access too. Cheers, Luis. Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: On 9/27/06 3:21 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Javier, Hi Luis, Ooops! Forgot: FM Pro allows you to create standalone DB front-ends for the clients to access the data, so if you want a 'rich' client experience that could be the way to go (again, limited to 5 connections for an FM Pro 'server'). Revolution + for example Valentina ADK or Valentina Server also can be used for development of standalone client/server of single user apps. If compare speed of Valentina vs FileMaker - Valentina is 100-1000 times faster. Now if you talk about client experience, then which customer will be more happy? A one which wait for a query result 30 seconds or another which get answer in 0.1 second ? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Hiya again, If you do decide to go the browser route you could also try Dataface http://fas.sfu.ca/dataface/ Check out the video demo. Cheers, Luis. Dan Shafer wrote: Javier, Keep in mind that MySQL is not free for commercial applications and that the licensing involved is at least confusing (at least it was to me and I have a law degree!). That said, the Rev solution can look any number of ways. Perhaps the most common usage is to design a Revolution desktop application that accesses the database on the server directly. There's no inherent need for a Rev stack on the server (though you can go that route and use CGI if you like; I don't recommend that because Rev CGIs are not multi-threaded and therefore not as useful for apps that need to scale). Another approach is to create the server-side app as a MySQL or PostgreSQL (which IS free) database interfaced by PHP scripts running on the server, then write your Rev client-side application to interact with the PHP rather than with the SQL database directly. Many people who use this approach say it's more stable and faster than direct interaciton with the database but that situation may have improved enough recently not to be an issue. In any case, speaking as a former FM developer and consultant, the *cost* and *performance* of deploying a solution as a Rev app rather than a FileMaker app will prove significant improvements. I wouldn't hesitate to switch if I were you, particularly if the application is intended to be around for some time and maintained. On 9/26/06, Javier Miranda V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/ software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 9/27/06 11:23 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luis, Any ideas what the storage capacity is for Valentina? I did a little research on FM Pro, apparently it can handle a few Terabytes (although I only managed to test it with a 3GB database, performance not being too bad). Well, technically limits is Terrabytes. But of course we have not test it on such db. We do not have so big HDD :-) I remember was guys that have use Valentina with db in 4-6 Gb. If you want get opinion of Valentina users about its performance check this page please: http://www.paradigmasoft.com/en/testimonials I am not joking when saying that Valentina beat fileMaker in 100-1000 times, as well as 4D. More mature dbs as MS SQL Server, Oracle, mySQL we can beat in 10-30-300 times. All depend on db structure, amount of records, kind of query you try to do. Not so far was Korea guys that use Valentina on few GB db, they are long time Oracle developers. So they was impressed by join on 2 tables that Oracle do 3 minutes, Valentina 3 seconds. I've been curious about Valentina, especially the fact that you can both embed and remote the database (same with FM but the licencing limitations then come in). Right. We have made a lots of efforts to support this. Valentina 2 was re-written from scratch on this reason also. Valentina seems to be more open to external app access too. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
Hiya, Thanks for the info. I have been looking at the site, off and on, and it looks like I might be investing in it, although I need to get over the initial learning Revolution hurdle... Cheers, Luis. Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: On 9/27/06 11:23 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luis, Any ideas what the storage capacity is for Valentina? I did a little research on FM Pro, apparently it can handle a few Terabytes (although I only managed to test it with a 3GB database, performance not being too bad). Well, technically limits is Terrabytes. But of course we have not test it on such db. We do not have so big HDD :-) I remember was guys that have use Valentina with db in 4-6 Gb. If you want get opinion of Valentina users about its performance check this page please: http://www.paradigmasoft.com/en/testimonials I am not joking when saying that Valentina beat fileMaker in 100-1000 times, as well as 4D. More mature dbs as MS SQL Server, Oracle, mySQL we can beat in 10-30-300 times. All depend on db structure, amount of records, kind of query you try to do. Not so far was Korea guys that use Valentina on few GB db, they are long time Oracle developers. So they was impressed by join on 2 tables that Oracle do 3 minutes, Valentina 3 seconds. I've been curious about Valentina, especially the fact that you can both embed and remote the database (same with FM but the licencing limitations then come in). Right. We have made a lots of efforts to support this. Valentina 2 was re-written from scratch on this reason also. Valentina seems to be more open to external app access too. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 9/27/06 1:01 PM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luis, Thanks for the info. I have been looking at the site, off and on, and it looks like I might be investing in it, although I need to get over the initial learning Revolution hurdle... Actually you can at first download and play with demos. They are full functional. To get more Valentina related help/info please subscribe to Valentina lists. We do not differ ever if a user is current or only evaluating. :-) -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Dan said: Javier, Keep in mind that MySQL is not free for commercial applications and that the licensing involved is at least confusing (at least it was to me and I have a law degree!). I should follow up to say that, yes if you want to host your own MYSQL server there are fees involved, but on the other hand, you could get a hosting account for less than $10/month that will allow unlimited MySQL databases. Plus no hosting, backup and bandwidth hassles that you get with hosting your own. The ISP handles the licensing. Dreamhost's MySQL servers are tied to client IPs, so you can fine tune the security. You also have the advantage of putting part or all of the database on a web browser. Many competitive ISPs can do this now. sqb -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Aside from the usual suspects there are two others that I know of: SQLite http://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html Firebird http://www.firebirdsql.org/ Decisions, decisions... Insofar as I can tell both of these are free to use for whatever. Cheers, Luis. Stephen Barncard wrote: Dan said: Javier, Keep in mind that MySQL is not free for commercial applications and that the licensing involved is at least confusing (at least it was to me and I have a law degree!). I should follow up to say that, yes if you want to host your own MYSQL server there are fees involved, but on the other hand, you could get a hosting account for less than $10/month that will allow unlimited MySQL databases. Plus no hosting, backup and bandwidth hassles that you get with hosting your own. The ISP handles the licensing. Dreamhost's MySQL servers are tied to client IPs, so you can fine tune the security. You also have the advantage of putting part or all of the database on a web browser. Many competitive ISPs can do this now. sqb ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/27/06 3:37 PM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aside from the usual suspects there are two others that I know of: SQLite http://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html Firebird http://www.firebirdsql.org/ Decisions, decisions... Insofar as I can tell both of these are free to use for whatever. Engines, yes. But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 FireBird - it seems there is no way to use with Rev. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 How much is the Valentina external for Revolution? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Well, there's plenty of wrappers and drivers for SQLite: http://www.sqlite.org/cvstrac/wiki?p=SqliteWrappers And Firebird also has a few drivers. Sure, the 'integration' is not there, I was suggesting them as options. I for one found the earlier Firebird hard to deal with, but still recommended for some purposes. And besides, isn't SQLite already embedded into OS X in CoreData? Might be an idea to latch onto that. Cheers, Luis. Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: On 9/27/06 3:37 PM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aside from the usual suspects there are two others that I know of: SQLite http://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html Firebird http://www.firebirdsql.org/ Decisions, decisions... Insofar as I can tell both of these are free to use for whatever. Engines, yes. But SQLLite external for Revolution is sold it seems for $150 FireBird - it seems there is no way to use with Rev. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On Sep 27, 2006, at 6:49 AM, Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: FireBird - it seems there is no way to use with Rev. One might guess ODBC or a custom external might allow use. Dar Scott ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
And besides, isn't SQLite already embedded into OS X in CoreData? Might be an idea to latch onto that. Yes, SQLite is embedded into OSX, but there's not a ready connector for Rev to access it. We (Altuit) makes such a connector, complete with embedded database, and Ruslan is correct, it sells for $149 for Mac/PC and Linux (all included). You can download a quick demo tutorial on how it works. This tutorial is made for altSQLite (our product), but it also shows how easy it is to connect RunRev to most ANY supported database, be it MySQL, Postgres, Valentina and others via the proper connectors. The tutorial is at: http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/altSQLiteCover/default.htm SQLite is mostly for client-side DB projects, much like the non-server based Filemaker. If you want to use a server, and are looking for open-source solutions, you can check out MySQL an Postgres. Ruslan also makes a commercial product as well called Valentina. best, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Uhmmm! I really shake the list with my inquiry, not bad for my first post!, In vegeance you give me a lot of homework. Thank you very much, it seems that the effort would be well compensated, the question now is which way to follow, continue using FM via Instant Publish although aminorates the problem did'nt solve it, in the other hand there are free SQLs with no direct support for Revolution, sother solutions involve using browsers and the MySQL database residing in an ISP, and finally there are at least two commercial products: the Altuit connector and Valentina. Both deserve a close inspection so far I see both companies devoted to their products and with an excellent attitude to the customers. Thank you again, Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 9/26/06 8:21 PM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooops! Forgot: FM Pro allows you to create standalone DB front-ends for the clients to access the data, so if you want a 'rich' client experience that could be the way to go (again, limited to 5 connections for an FM Pro 'server'). I don't think so, at least up to FileMaker 6, you could create standalones but they can't interact with a server though there is a plug in for SQL databases but not for FMP. Maybe FMp 7 or 8 can, I don't know. Hershel Cheers, Luis. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
The happy client will be the one who gets what he wants in a timely manner without a lot of fuss. Valentina is extremely fast. So is a jet plane. Filemaker gets up and running quickly without the steep learning curve. So does a Volkswagen. I would not like to fly a jet plane back and forth to work every day. I would not like to drive 1000 people to Zimbabwe in my Volkswagen. Filemaker and Valentina are different animals. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Logos Management Calvary Chapel CM Now if you talk about client experience, then which customer will be more happy? A one which wait for a query result 30 seconds or another which get answer in 0.1 second ? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 9/28/06 1:58 AM, Robert Sneidar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The happy client will be the one who gets what he wants in a timely manner without a lot of fuss. Valentina is extremely fast. So is a jet plane. Filemaker gets up and running quickly without the steep learning curve. So does a Volkswagen. I would not like to fly a jet plane back and forth to work every day. I would not like to drive 1000 people to Zimbabwe in my Volkswagen. Filemaker and Valentina are different animals. :-) no doubt, Robert. Right tools for right tasks. Btw, team of developers develop Valentina Studio - GUI tool based on Valentina engine...There is hope that this application will go in direction of FM/Access. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Logos Management Calvary Chapel CM Now if you talk about client experience, then which customer will be more happy? A one which wait for a query result 30 seconds or another which get answer in 0.1 second ? -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
Yep, does. This was on FM Pro 8. Cheers, Luis. On 27 Sep 2006, at 23:33, Hershel Fisch wrote: On 9/26/06 8:21 PM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooops! Forgot: FM Pro allows you to create standalone DB front-ends for the clients to access the data, so if you want a 'rich' client experience that could be the way to go (again, limited to 5 connections for an FM Pro 'server'). I don't think so, at least up to FileMaker 6, you could create standalones but they can't interact with a server though there is a plug in for SQL databases but not for FMP. Maybe FMp 7 or 8 can, I don't know. Hershel Cheers, Luis. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 28 Sep 2006, at 0:34, Ruslan Zasukhin wrote: On 9/28/06 1:58 AM, Robert Sneidar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The happy client will be the one who gets what he wants in a timely manner without a lot of fuss. Valentina is extremely fast. So is a jet plane. Filemaker gets up and running quickly without the steep learning curve. So does a Volkswagen. I would not like to fly a jet plane back and forth to work every day. I would not like to drive 1000 people to Zimbabwe in my Volkswagen. Filemaker and Valentina are different animals. :-) no doubt, Robert. Right tools for right tasks. Btw, team of developers develop Valentina Studio - GUI tool based on Valentina engine...There is hope that this application will go in direction of FM/Access. Hopefully better! ;) Cheerrs, Luis. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
I am writing a fairly heavy-duty application in Rev that interfaces with a MySQL database on our server in Texas. Five people have been using this app (Rev standalones) heavily day and night for 6 weeks, our company has been running on it, and despite the stream of expected (and some unexpected) hiccups and bumps (project is still alpha stage) I am convinced of Rev's superiority for this application over FileMaker. Until I got my custom MySQL library written and decided on a simple way to map Rev controls with database elements it was very time- consuming, now I can whip up a new window into the data not too much slower than FileMaker, with way more flexibility and power than FileMaker. With my library, each field and popup menu has a script like: ON mouseUp updateMe END mouseUp That's it! the updateMe handler gets information about what to update, and what format, from custom properties attached to the object. Being able to tap things like FTP, control of Quicktime and graphics, dragging and dropping controls, none of these things could be done with FileMaker (at least the version I last worked with). Plus the Galaxy scripting environment is far superior to FileMaker scripting that I know of. I was originally working with PHP middleware but this was way more time-consuming than just working all in Rev. And the cost, after buying a Revolution license, is $0 for potentially up to millions of simultaneous users (our hosting service handles the MySQL licensing issues). On Sep 26, 2006, at 12:16 PM, Javier Miranda V. wrote: While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
On 9/27/06 11:06 PM, Josh Mellicker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With my library, each field and popup menu has a script like: ON mouseUp updateMe END mouseUp That's it! the updateMe handler gets information about what to update, and what format, from custom properties attached to the object. Hey Josh! If you really want to go wild, you can create a frontScript that has a mouseUp handler that executes updateMe so that the fields and popup menus don't need any script at all! :-) And the cost, after buying a Revolution license, is $0 for potentially up to millions of simultaneous users (our hosting service handles the MySQL licensing issues). Nice... Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
This sounds a little bit like the database objects project Trevor Devore is working on. At 21:06 -0700 9/27/06, Josh Mellicker wrote: Until I got my custom MySQL library written and decided on a simple way to map Rev controls with database elements it was very time-consuming, now I can whip up a new window into the data not too much slower than FileMaker, with way more flexibility and power than FileMaker. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/ software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker
Insofar as I can remember FM Pro allows 5 connections to a client running the database, so a client can effectively be a limited 'server'. You don't need a a copy of FM on every client box, you can use a browser to get at the data (on FM Server and even in the above scenario) although some things are unavailable for display on the browser. You don't install the Rev stack on client machines, you create an app that then queries the MySQL (or whatever) database. Try Rev and see how far you go. I recall seeing a tool to export FM to MySQL, let me know if you need it and I'll hunt around. Have you seen fx.php? http://www.iviking.org/FX.php/ Might be worth giving it a go if you're ok with php. Cheers, Luis. On 26 Sep 2006, at 20:16, Javier Miranda V. wrote: While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
Ooops! Forgot: FM Pro allows you to create standalone DB front-ends for the clients to access the data, so if you want a 'rich' client experience that could be the way to go (again, limited to 5 connections for an FM Pro 'server'). Cheers, Luis. On 27 Sep 2006, at 1:19, Luis wrote: Insofar as I can remember FM Pro allows 5 connections to a client running the database, so a client can effectively be a limited 'server'. You don't need a a copy of FM on every client box, you can use a browser to get at the data (on FM Server and even in the above scenario) although some things are unavailable for display on the browser. You don't install the Rev stack on client machines, you create an app that then queries the MySQL (or whatever) database. Try Rev and see how far you go. I recall seeing a tool to export FM to MySQL, let me know if you need it and I'll hunt around. Have you seen fx.php? http://www.iviking.org/FX.php/ Might be worth giving it a go if you're ok with php. Cheers, Luis. On 26 Sep 2006, at 20:16, Javier Miranda V. wrote: While not trying to initiate a war , I would like to know if the process of migrating from FileMaker to a Revolution/MySQL will compensate the effort. Here is situation: I'm in the final stages of building an Application for Document Management using FileMaker, it works fine, presenting a very polished interface and variety of options but The cost for the client would be to high considering the price of the solution itself plus a copy of Filemaker Server (7, 8 or 8.5) and a copy of FileMaker for every user in the LAN! I understand that the functionality of a server/client can be accomplished using the Revolution/MySQL pair Installing MySQL in the Server along with the Revolution Stack, then installing client Stack in the users machines. Is this true? Is this the real configuration of the a server/client solution? Are there any other considerations/software needed? I'm missing something? Or I'm totally wrong? Sorry for my ignorance, I'm sure you RevPeople will help. Saludos, Javier Miranda V. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution, MySQL vs FileMaker - Part II
On 9/27/06 3:21 AM, Luis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Javier, Hi Luis, Ooops! Forgot: FM Pro allows you to create standalone DB front-ends for the clients to access the data, so if you want a 'rich' client experience that could be the way to go (again, limited to 5 connections for an FM Pro 'server'). Revolution + for example Valentina ADK or Valentina Server also can be used for development of standalone client/server of single user apps. If compare speed of Valentina vs FileMaker - Valentina is 100-1000 times faster. Now if you talk about client experience, then which customer will be more happy? A one which wait for a query result 30 seconds or another which get answer in 0.1 second ? -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
