Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: But independent column alignment is so very central to so much of what so many people want to build in Rev, and have wanted for so long, that I believe we're at a point where it can be reasonably said to be expected in the engine. Much of what people need to display are numbers. It's not just the 261 votes for that request that matter. Those of us using the product now are a small number compared to those we need to see using it five years from now. It's that much-larger audience of newcomers who will need it most, so they can just drop it in and move on to more interesting things like learning arcane SQL syntax, and along the way gain the feeling that they couldn't possibly use anything else because anything else would be too much work. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com I was tired and went to sleep for awhile. I agree about the independent column alignment. You would always have to justify a whole column instead of 1 item. And every time you resized the column it would need to justify it the column again which would lead to big problems. But it could be used in special cases where the programmer does not want the user to be allowed to resize coiumns or the rows are limited. Another quick solution might be justify only what is visible on screen and a little bit past or just use a paging system instead of scrolling. But some of the other options would work real good for a lot of people and the whole concept of making each item become as many different buttons as you want will work too. These things could open the doors to fields in new ways. It needs to all be done by the Rev team with preferences that can be turned on and off like other field preferences but it shows what Rev needs for the next Revolution in programming and many parts can be worked in pretty easy. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
Josep M Yepes wrote: Somebody know where can try this Inspector Palette that appear in the jpg? Or many info about this? I read this in the improve-revolution list some days ago... For example, a lot of my stuff lately requires display of data in lists in which I need an iTunes-quality display, with resizable columns that support sorting, etc.: http://fourthworldlabs.com/table.jpg Thank you for your interest, Josep. The library itself is functional and being used in a couple products, but the delay in making it available for others is that it has no documentation at this point. When I've asked here previously for those interested in the library to write me I got a few enthusiastic responses, but admittedly only a few. Given the amount of work my clients are asking of me (we're in the middle of major upgrades to most of the products I manage, with two new products also in development), documenting lib4WTable has taken a back seat. I can try to coerce some time to put together even modest documentation in the next week or so. No promises -- I get change orders coming in for our work from clients with enough frequency that it isn't possible to make firm commitments on things like this, but I'll see what I can do... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
Hi Richard. I wonder what the price would be that you would charge to contract the work needed to document lib4WTable? If you could get enough of a commitment from other Revolution developers, I would certainly be willing to contribute just so we can have a working table model. But if it is more a problem of time then of course, that wouldn't help matters. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Logos Management Calvary Chapel CM On Oct 14, 2008, at 11:15 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Josep M Yepes wrote: Somebody know where can try this Inspector Palette that appear in the jpg? Or many info about this? I read this in the improve-revolution list some days ago... For example, a lot of my stuff lately requires display of data in lists in which I need an iTunes-quality display, with resizable columns that support sorting, etc.: http://fourthworldlabs.com/table.jpg Thank you for your interest, Josep. The library itself is functional and being used in a couple products, but the delay in making it available for others is that it has no documentation at this point. When I've asked here previously for those interested in the library to write me I got a few enthusiastic responses, but admittedly only a few. Given the amount of work my clients are asking of me (we're in the middle of major upgrades to most of the products I manage, with two new products also in development), documenting lib4WTable has taken a back seat. I can try to coerce some time to put together even modest documentation in the next week or so. No promises -- I get change orders coming in for our work from clients with enough frequency that it isn't possible to make firm commitments on things like this, but I'll see what I can do... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
Bob Sneidar On Oct 14, 2008, at 11:15 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: http://fourthworldlabs.com/table.jpg The library itself is functional and being used in a couple products, but the delay in making it available for others is that it has no documentation at this point. When I've asked here previously for those interested in the library to write me I got a few enthusiastic responses, but admittedly only a few. Given the amount of work my clients are asking of me (we're in the middle of major upgrades to most of the products I manage, with two new products also in development), documenting lib4WTable has taken a back seat. I can try to coerce some time to put together even modest documentation in the next week or so. No promises -- I get change orders coming in for our work from clients with enough frequency that it isn't possible to make firm commitments on things like this, but I'll see what I can do... I wonder what the price would be that you would charge to contract the work needed to document lib4WTable? If you could get enough of a commitment from other Revolution developers, I would certainly be willing to contribute just so we can have a working table model. But if it is more a problem of time then of course, that wouldn't help matters. One challenge here is to make sure we're all talking about the same type of table. There are at least three kinds, as outlined earlier: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2008-April/109978.html Of those, mine is the second kind, a list selector. It's useful for databases, but does not attempt to provide the very different functionality of a spreadsheet or other types of grids. In fact, at this time it doesn't even provide in-cell editing, though if I need that somewhere down the road I may add it. Right now my UIs are very heavy in master-detail layouts, so in-cell editing just isn't something I need (and find myself frustrated with when iTunes insists on allowing it when I just want to double-click something). What it does provide is a convenient way to have column headers at the top which: - can be resized (or fixed; that's an option) - can optionally support horizontal scrolling (useful for having more columns than can fit on screen) - clicking on a column header sorts the data by that column, with the selection retained after the sort - the sort column has a sort indicator arrow, and like iTunes the sort indicator remains at the clipping bounds of the group, so as you scroll for example the sort indicator stays in view until the column is completely offscreen (it's a subtle touch, but I rather like it g) It's in two parts: the object itself is a group which uses a standard Rev field for display and buttons and other stuff for the header, all bound up in a group for convenient manipulation. Most of the code is in a library, so there's very little code redundancy if you use multiple groups (and it lets me fix/enhance it easily without mucking with the groups). It's pretty much all property-driven, so you can put data into it, toggle its risizing and scrolling behaviors, etc., with simple property settings. The resizing of the headers, while tricky with horizontal scrolling, isn't magic. I believe lib4WTable can be a big time-saver over making a one-off from scratch, but because it uses Rev's field to display the text is has the same limits (on the upside that means it can store up to 4GB; on the downside it means no independent column alignment at this time). It serves my needs for list display well, and if it would suffice for others I'll give some thought to your question. That said, at this stage it's not like I can just drop my commitments if we can find a way to bring in a larger hourly sum for lib4WTable. But it would help encourage me to reprioritize it a little higher on my to-do list of free time activities to know that it'll be worth doing. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:58 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: One challenge here is to make sure we're all talking about the same type of table. There are at least three kinds, as outlined earlier: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2008-April/ 109978.html Of those, mine is the second kind, a list selector. It's useful for databases, but does not attempt to provide the very different functionality of a spreadsheet or other types of grids. In fact, at this time it doesn't even provide in-cell editing, though if I need that somewhere down the road I may add it. Right now my UIs are very heavy in master-detail layouts, so in-cell editing just isn't something I need (and find myself frustrated with when iTunes insists on allowing it when I just want to double- click something). What it does provide is a convenient way to have column headers at the top which: - can be resized (or fixed; that's an option) - can optionally support horizontal scrolling (useful for having more columns than can fit on screen) - clicking on a column header sorts the data by that column, with the selection retained after the sort - the sort column has a sort indicator arrow, and like iTunes the sort indicator remains at the clipping bounds of the group, so as you scroll for example the sort indicator stays in view until the column is completely offscreen (it's a subtle touch, but I rather like it g) It's in two parts: the object itself is a group which uses a standard Rev field for display and buttons and other stuff for the header, all bound up in a group for convenient manipulation. Most of the code is in a library, so there's very little code redundancy if you use multiple groups (and it lets me fix/enhance it easily without mucking with the groups). It's pretty much all property-driven, so you can put data into it, toggle its risizing and scrolling behaviors, etc., with simple property settings. The resizing of the headers, while tricky with horizontal scrolling, isn't magic. I believe lib4WTable can be a big time- saver over making a one-off from scratch, but because it uses Rev's field to display the text is has the same limits (on the upside that means it can store up to 4GB; on the downside it means no independent column alignment at this time). It serves my needs for list display well, and if it would suffice for others I'll give some thought to your question. That said, at this stage it's not like I can just drop my commitments if we can find a way to bring in a larger hourly sum for lib4WTable. But it would help encourage me to reprioritize it a little higher on my to-do list of free time activities to know that it'll be worth doing. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution And then my Dynamic Table Field will allow you to edit each item, copy and paste to each item and turn each item into as many different buttons as you want. Why doesn't the Rev team take some of these examples and build a flexible field that everyone can use. I have heard many people mention they want to have the fields improved so it is obvious it would be wise economically to provide both new and existing Rev customers what they want. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: Why doesn't the Rev team take some of these examples and build a flexible field that everyone can use. I have heard many people mention they want to have the fields improved so it is obvious it would be wise economically to provide both new and existing Rev customers what they want. They know that. :) -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 2:19 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: -= JB =- wrote: Why doesn't the Rev team take some of these examples and build a flexible field that everyone can use. I have heard many people mention they want to have the fields improved so it is obvious it would be wise economically to provide both new and existing Rev customers what they want. They know that. :) -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ So does that mean Richard would be wasting his time improving his field because the Rev team are going to incorporate all of the things he and others have already done. They could easily add the ability to for the end user to resize the field too. Or does it simply mean, They know that. Because if they have intentions of providing an exciting new field with all of the extras I am sure Richard would be happy to work on something that is not going to end up duplicating something that will be a standard field for all Rev users integrated into Rev. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
I'd rather have the rev team work on a new table control and a revised text field. On OWhy doesn't the Rev team take some of these examples and build a flexible field that everyone can use. I have heard many people mention they want to have the fields improved so it is obvious it would be wise economically to provide both new and existing Rev customers what they want. -=JB=- ___ -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
WHOOPS! I have started another firestorm methinks. I have been informed that a table object of the nature you speak of IS a high priority to Runrev, but incorporating it is a huge thing. I do not think most people realize what a difficult thing table management is. Each cell is like it's own field. But then horizontal groups of fields can be controlled together as in changing the column width or changing the column formatting. And then rows are groups as well! So do you need to be able to select rows/columns and do operations on them? How about font control? Does each cell get it's own formatting? Will you need discontinuous selections? How many will you allow? Endless? Will the data be stored in memory or use disk caching? Will you allow direct access to database queries to show up? Will you be able to lock/hide cells/rows/columns? Change the background/foreground colors of each cell or groups of cells? For each of these operations there needs to be all new scripting commands. It's a HUGE undertaking. That is why I keep saying I would pay good money for a decent table object. It's probably one of the hardest things to implement in any user interface. I would rather have Runrev get it right out of the box then to be given a simplistic table object that does half of what I need, and then have to hope and pray they improve it in a reasonable time. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Logos Management Calvary Chapel CM On Oct 14, 2008, at 2:30 PM, -= JB =- wrote: So does that mean Richard would be wasting his time improving his field because the Rev team are going to incorporate all of the things he and others have already done. They could easily add the ability to for the end user to resize the field too. Or does it simply mean, They know that. Because if they have intentions of providing an exciting new field with all of the extras I am sure Richard would be happy to work on something that is not going to end up duplicating something that will be a standard field for all Rev users integrated into Rev. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote: WHOOPS! I have started another firestorm methinks. I have been informed that a table object of the nature you speak of IS a high priority to Runrev, but incorporating it is a huge thing. I do not think most people realize what a difficult thing table management is. Each cell is like it's own field. But then horizontal groups of fields can be controlled together as in changing the column width or changing the column formatting. And then rows are groups as well! So do you need to be able to select rows/columns and do operations on them? How about font control? Does each cell get it's own formatting? Will you need discontinuous selections? How many will you allow? Endless? Will the data be stored in memory or use disk caching? Will you allow direct access to database queries to show up? Will you be able to lock/hide cells/rows/columns? Change the background/foreground colors of each cell or groups of cells? For each of these operations there needs to be all new scripting commands. It's a HUGE undertaking. That is why I keep saying I would pay good money for a decent table object. It's probably one of the hardest things to implement in any user interface. I would rather have Runrev get it right out of the box then to be given a simplistic table object that does half of what I need, and then have to hope and pray they improve it in a reasonable time. Bob Sneidar IT Manager Logos Management Calvary Chapel CM Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. The data can be stored how they are storing it now and if needed changed in the future. There are already examples that show how to resize and move fields. Columns can automatically be resized too. Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. Searching and sorting can easily be incorporated. Locking text is already a standard too. Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Integrating it all can not be that hard unless they are trying to rewrite it in a different language and make it do what is already being done with transcript. After they release a sophisticated flexible table field users can make suggestions for more features. If it is too hard for them then Richard should continue improving his field. If they have intentions of changing it soon they should tell him so he won't waste his time. He gives a lot of his time already and considering the amount of time he has given they owe it to him to not treat him like a mushroom and keep him in the dark. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. The data can be stored how they are storing it now and if needed changed in the future. There are already examples that show how to resize and move fields. Columns can automatically be resized too. Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. Searching and sorting can easily be incorporated. Locking text is already a standard too. Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Where? After they release a sophisticated flexible table field users can make suggestions for more features. If it is too hard for them then Richard should continue improving his field. If they have intentions of changing it soon they should tell him so he won't waste his time. He gives a lot of his time already and considering the amount of time he has given they owe it to him to not treat him like a mushroom and keep him in the dark. I appreciate the kind words. Actually, before I started down this road I did check in with Kevin, and he told me it would be at least a year before RunRev provided any sort of header controls such as I was making. That was more than a year ago, so the time spent on my little gadget has been useful. If it were up to me, I would prioritize enhancements related to this with these two leading the pack because they're relatively simple and are oh so needed: 1. Independently resizable columns 2. Hidden columns Those two would provide a significant step forward for most database work people are doing right now. I would prioritize them above all else, esp. ahead of things I've heard very few ask for, like finely-tunable gradients. Once those are in place, I would move forward with: 3. Decimal alignment in columns 4. Built-in header controls 5. Built-in option for in-cell editing 6. Built-in alternating line backgrounds 7. Update the threeDHilite for a rounded, more modern appearance 8. Allow multi-line cells 9. Allow controls in cells These, coupled with the features in the current field object, that would suffice most of what people would need for list selectors. Once the list selector is completely done, only then would I consider making a spreadsheet-style grid control. Spreadsheet grids are very different from lists, much more complex and for a much smaller range of uses. In fact, given the cost-to-benefit ratio of spreadsheet grids, I might go a completely different route to solving that, by not solving it at all: Instead, I'd make an API for externally-defined controls, and worth with third parties to use that API to make widgets for vertical needs like spreadsheets, calendars, and just about anything else they can dream up. Think altBrowser, but tightly coupled with the engine's rendering and messaging internals. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. The data can be stored how they are storing it now and if needed changed in the future. There are already examples that show how to resize and move fields. Columns can automatically be resized too. Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. Searching and sorting can easily be incorporated. Locking text is already a standard too. Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Where? You say, Where? Do you mean each thing I mentioned? Please be more specific so I can provide you a detailed answer. Which item do you want to know how to do? -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. The data can be stored how they are storing it now and if needed changed in the future. There are already examples that show how to resize and move fields. Columns can automatically be resized too. Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. Searching and sorting can easily be incorporated. Locking text is already a standard too. Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Where? You say, Where? Do you mean each thing I mentioned? Please be more specific so I can provide you a detailed answer. Which item do you want to know how to do? I had the impression the above described a multi-platform control either made in Transcript or which could be easily integrated into the engine by the RunRev team. If not, what does it describe? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:43 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. The data can be stored how they are storing it now and if needed changed in the future. There are already examples that show how to resize and move fields. Columns can automatically be resized too. Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. Searching and sorting can easily be incorporated. Locking text is already a standard too. Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Where? You say, Where? Do you mean each thing I mentioned? Please be more specific so I can provide you a detailed answer. Which item do you want to know how to do? I had the impression the above described a multi-platform control either made in Transcript or which could be easily integrated into the engine by the RunRev team. If not, what does it describe? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation A few things like moving the fields were done in examples I have seen. But if you want to do most of the other things it is done in my stack that is named Dynamic Table Field. It is in Rev online in the programming section or you can look under the user name sundown. If you have seen it and still don't know how to do the things I mentioned please ask me. When you look at the code you will see I even used a piece of code you gave me when I asked a question on this list. Let me know what feature you can't see readily and I will explain how to do it and show you which part of the code does it. As far as having each item be a different font and style it can actually have each character in each item be a different font and style and it can be done by using the paste option. If the questions need to use more text than allowed on the list you can contact me off list. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Integrating it all can not be that hard unless they are trying to rewrite it in a different language and make it do what is already being done with transcript. Yup, that's the deal. The current table field in Rev's property inspector is just a regular field with some scripts in it. The functionality is faked. It's a sophisticated effort but is saddled, by its nature, with limitations. What others are talking about is an honest to goodness table object implemented in the engine. Writing a new object for three operating systems using a low-level language is, as you mentioned, a huge undertaking. But if RR wants to have a real table, then that's what they'd need to do. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: A few things like moving the fields were done in examples I have seen. But if you want to do most of the other things it is done in my stack that is named Dynamic Table Field. It is in Rev online in the programming section or you can look under the user name sundown. Got it - thanks. If you have seen it and still don't know how to do the things I mentioned please ask me. When you look at the code you will see I even used a piece of code you gave me when I asked a question on this list. :) Small world. Let me know what feature you can't see readily and I will explain how to do it and show you which part of the code does it. As far as having each item be a different font and style it can actually have each character in each item be a different font and style and it can be done by using the paste option. I think I had misunderstood the description in the earlier post. For example: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. True, as with any Rev chunk. I was hoping for the holy grail of independent column alignment. I've used multiple fields for that in the past, but getting the selection working well and keep things in synch is just more work than it needs to be, and suffers from poor performance. Also: The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. In script one can set a field's tabstops, but in the Dynamic Table Field is there a way to resize them interactively with the mouse? This one sounds intriguing: Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. What does that mean? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 5:06 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: -= JB =- wrote: Many things can be done very fast because it is already being done. Integrating it all can not be that hard unless they are trying to rewrite it in a different language and make it do what is already being done with transcript. Yup, that's the deal. The current table field in Rev's property inspector is just a regular field with some scripts in it. The functionality is faked. It's a sophisticated effort but is saddled, by its nature, with limitations. What others are talking about is an honest to goodness table object implemented in the engine. Writing a new object for three operating systems using a low-level language is, as you mentioned, a huge undertaking. But if RR wants to have a real table, then that's what they'd need to do. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com It seems to me that with a small amount of team work the current table field can be improved by leaps and bounds and then they can rewrite it in the future if needed and slowly implement different features. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 5:15 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: A few things like moving the fields were done in examples I have seen. But if you want to do most of the other things it is done in my stack that is named Dynamic Table Field. It is in Rev online in the programming section or you can look under the user name sundown. Got it - thanks. If you have seen it and still don't know how to do the things I mentioned please ask me. When you look at the code you will see I even used a piece of code you gave me when I asked a question on this list. :) Small world. Let me know what feature you can't see readily and I will explain how to do it and show you which part of the code does it. As far as having each item be a different font and style it can actually have each character in each item be a different font and style and it can be done by using the paste option. I think I had misunderstood the description in the earlier post. For example: Each cell can already be controlled separately plus have its own font style. True, as with any Rev chunk. I was hoping for the holy grail of independent column alignment. I've used multiple fields for that in the past, but getting the selection working well and keep things in synch is just more work than it needs to be, and suffers from poor performance. Also: The columns can already be resized but the rows still need to be able to be resized. In script one can set a field's tabstops, but in the Dynamic Table Field is there a way to resize them interactively with the mouse? This one sounds intriguing: Each cell can easily become as many separate buttons as the programmers wants. What does that mean? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com I am not sure what you mean by each column having independent alignment. To resize a single column you need to click to the left of a divider line and keep the mouse held down. The cursor will change to a hand, move the hand with the mouse held down and after you release the cursor the column divider will move to where the hand was. This can be improved by using mousewithin changing the cursor to one like is used when you resize the dictionary. The buttons idea is simple and staring you in the face. You can see that I have already made each item 3 different buttons. Button 1 provides you the line and item number along with the item clicked. Button 2 allows you to click on an item and it will copy that item and place it in the field above the copy button. Button 3 allows you to paste the styled text in any item you click on. This can be rewritten to make it a little easier to provide options and the options are limitless. You can have it automatically do anything instead of one of the three options I provided. They are not physical buttons which is even better they just allow each cell to do as many different things you want when it is clicked. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 5:15 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: True, as with any Rev chunk. I was hoping for the holy grail of independent column alignment. I've used multiple fields for that in the past, but getting the selection working well and keep things in synch is just more work than it needs to be, and suffers from poor performance. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com I think I know what you mean by independent column alignment. Are you wanting to have each column use Left Center or RIght justification? If so I bet that can be done pretty easy and you could have each cell or each column justified. It would take a little bit of math to add a character in front of the item or column of items to properly align the text Left Center or Right. Not a big deal really. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 5:15 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: A few things like moving the fields were done in examples I have seen. But if you want to do most of the other things it is done in my stack that is named Dynamic Table Field. It is in Rev online in the programming section or you can look under the user name sundown. Got it - thanks. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com One thing I should point out is a bug I found the other day and haven't fixed yet but am pretty sure what the problem is. When you use the option or command keys to add an item to a cell in a empty column some of the features don't work on that item any more like resizing the column. This appears to be caused by the tab stops are not automatically changed to account for the new column and it just needs the tab stops calculated after the item in a new column is first entered. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: I think I know what you mean by independent column alignment. Are you wanting to have each column use Left Center or RIght justification? Yep - probably the one feature most developers here would prioritize above all else, so central to information displays as it is. If so I bet that can be done pretty easy and you could have each cell or each column justified. It would take a little bit of math to add a character in front of the item or column of items to properly align the text Left Center or Right. Not a big deal really. Try it on a field with a couple hundred columns and a few thousand rows and you'll see where this goes pretty quickly. Dropping that much data into a Rev field as it is today is lightning fast - faster to display and much smoother to scroll than even Excel or Word. But if you had to walk through each item of each line to calculate the formattedWidth, and hope that you could obtain a correct formattedWidth for the preceding padding spaces needed to have it line up, with the engine as it currently is it's very slow. And with anything other than monospaced fonts very close to impossible to get truly good alignment. The space character is more than one pixel wide so it requires settling for approximation, which ultimately means some items will be a pixel or two off, resulting in a ragged right edge. With a monospaced font it's possible to get adequate alignment, but the performance issue remains. And with the customary application fonts on every supported platform being non-monospaced, whose users would be happy being limited to Courier or Monaco? At a minimum, to deliver professional work we need Lucida Grande on OS X and Tregoe on Windows (though it does't matter on Linux because there is no single standard g). As much as I appreciate your ambition, I believe this is a task best suited for the engine. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: I think I know what you mean by independent column alignment. Are you wanting to have each column use Left Center or RIght justification? Yep - probably the one feature most developers here would prioritize above all else, so central to information displays as it is. If so I bet that can be done pretty easy and you could have each cell or each column justified. It would take a little bit of math to add a character in front of the item or column of items to properly align the text Left Center or Right. Not a big deal really. Try it on a field with a couple hundred columns and a few thousand rows and you'll see where this goes pretty quickly. Dropping that much data into a Rev field as it is today is lightning fast - faster to display and much smoother to scroll than even Excel or Word. But if you had to walk through each item of each line to calculate the formattedWidth, and hope that you could obtain a correct formattedWidth for the preceding padding spaces needed to have it line up, with the engine as it currently is it's very slow. And with anything other than monospaced fonts very close to impossible to get truly good alignment. The space character is more than one pixel wide so it requires settling for approximation, which ultimately means some items will be a pixel or two off, resulting in a ragged right edge. With a monospaced font it's possible to get adequate alignment, but the performance issue remains. And with the customary application fonts on every supported platform being non-monospaced, whose users would be happy being limited to Courier or Monaco? At a minimum, to deliver professional work we need Lucida Grande on OS X and Tregoe on Windows (though it does't matter on Linux because there is no single standard g). As much as I appreciate your ambition, I believe this is a task best suited for the engine. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com I am sure the Rev team can speed things up in time. But many features available are much better than nothing at all. As for the proper spacing when I was using a demo of Rev over a year ago I asked about adding a glyph for justification. Someone suggested make an invisible image for a glyph which would be 1 point and you could then enter the amount needed. Things can be improved by the Rev team but many things can be used now. If it gets so large it is too slow you will have to wait for those options to be improved. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: I think I know what you mean by independent column alignment. Are you wanting to have each column use Left Center or RIght justification? Yep - probably the one feature most developers here would prioritize above all else, so central to information displays as it is. If so I bet that can be done pretty easy and you could have each cell or each column justified. It would take a little bit of math to add a character in front of the item or column of items to properly align the text Left Center or Right. Not a big deal really. Try it on a field with a couple hundred columns and a few thousand rows and you'll see where this goes pretty quickly. Dropping that much data into a Rev field as it is today is lightning fast - faster to display and much smoother to scroll than even Excel or Word. But if you had to walk through each item of each line to calculate the formattedWidth, and hope that you could obtain a correct formattedWidth for the preceding padding spaces needed to have it line up, with the engine as it currently is it's very slow. And with anything other than monospaced fonts very close to impossible to get truly good alignment. The space character is more than one pixel wide so it requires settling for approximation, which ultimately means some items will be a pixel or two off, resulting in a ragged right edge. With a monospaced font it's possible to get adequate alignment, but the performance issue remains. And with the customary application fonts on every supported platform being non-monospaced, whose users would be happy being limited to Courier or Monaco? At a minimum, to deliver professional work we need Lucida Grande on OS X and Tregoe on Windows (though it does't matter on Linux because there is no single standard g). As much as I appreciate your ambition, I believe this is a task best suited for the engine. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Another way to speed it up would do not have a few thousand rows. This could be overcome by using a database and after so many rows were scrolled the database would get the next hundred or so, whatever works. I am not saying it is perfect but if that is what you need it would be better than nothing. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
On Oct 14, 2008, at 6:48 PM, -= JB =- wrote: On Oct 14, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: -= JB =- wrote: I think I know what you mean by independent column alignment. Are you wanting to have each column use Left Center or RIght justification? Yep - probably the one feature most developers here would prioritize above all else, so central to information displays as it is. If so I bet that can be done pretty easy and you could have each cell or each column justified. It would take a little bit of math to add a character in front of the item or column of items to properly align the text Left Center or Right. Not a big deal really. Try it on a field with a couple hundred columns and a few thousand rows and you'll see where this goes pretty quickly. Dropping that much data into a Rev field as it is today is lightning fast - faster to display and much smoother to scroll than even Excel or Word. But if you had to walk through each item of each line to calculate the formattedWidth, and hope that you could obtain a correct formattedWidth for the preceding padding spaces needed to have it line up, with the engine as it currently is it's very slow. And with anything other than monospaced fonts very close to impossible to get truly good alignment. The space character is more than one pixel wide so it requires settling for approximation, which ultimately means some items will be a pixel or two off, resulting in a ragged right edge. With a monospaced font it's possible to get adequate alignment, but the performance issue remains. And with the customary application fonts on every supported platform being non- monospaced, whose users would be happy being limited to Courier or Monaco? At a minimum, to deliver professional work we need Lucida Grande on OS X and Tregoe on Windows (though it does't matter on Linux because there is no single standard g). As much as I appreciate your ambition, I believe this is a task best suited for the engine. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Another way to speed it up would do not have a few thousand rows. This could be overcome by using a database and after so many rows were scrolled the database would get the next hundred or so, whatever works. I am not saying it is perfect but if that is what you need it would be better than nothing. -=JB=- ___ If you only changed the justification for one column at a time the speed would not be hampered by the number of columns since it would use the code you provided to get one column at a time. If you changed the justification of one item at a time your number of rows would not change the speed either. So the slow down would be how many rows of one column would justify at a reasonable speed. How often do you need to change the justification of the whole column since it is being justified for each item according to the setting for that column. There would be some slow times but if you are not changing the justification of a whole column very often you would end up with the look you wanted and that look may not even need to be changed in some stacks. Therefore you would only be changing one item at a time. -=JB=- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
-= JB =- wrote: I am sure the Rev team can speed things up in time. But many features available are much better than nothing at all. As for the proper spacing when I was using a demo of Rev over a year ago I asked about adding a glyph for justification. Someone suggested make an invisible image for a glyph which would be 1 point and you could then enter the amount needed. Things can be improved by the Rev team but many things can be used now. If it gets so large it is too slow you will have to wait for those options to be improved. Another way to speed it up would do not have a few thousand rows. This could be overcome by using a database and after so many rows were scrolled the database would get the next hundred or so, whatever works. Both of those are very clever workarounds, but they must be recognized for what they are. The extra characters for the images, while aiding display, complicate data retrieval since they must be parsed out. The buffered display of long lists can work in some cases, but it means either accepting a scrollbar whose thumb bears no relationship to the field contents, or using a separate scrollbar object and managing it yourself. Sure, it's all doable, but a dozen lines here and a dozen lines there and pretty soon you have a rather complex subsystem on your hands -- a subsystem that doesn't add innovative features to one's app as much as simply compensate for not having basic ones. For the relative few in the Rev community with the experience to pull off such a set of workarounds gracefully, our clients would rather we be working on bullet-point features. And for newcomers, it's quite a lot to ask of them to figure all that out. Things like this are a lot like chunk expressions: you can parse text in any language, but I hate parsing text in any language that doesn't have chunk expressions. It's so logical, so efficient, so very much the right way to handle that task. Ideally everything in the Rev experience would be as compelling, at least the most commonly-used stuff. That said, here you show yourself to be a man after my own heart: I am not saying it is perfect but if that is what you need it would be better than nothing. Amen, brother. I hope my nit-picking over this object doesn't appear arbitrary. In general, I'm right with you on that, and often seek some way to get an immediate solution, however imperfect, to get the job done and move on to other things. But there's a delicate balance in the ratio of time spent on a workaround relative to its quality and relative to the complexity it adds to one's code base. If you absolutely need a independent column alignment, there are ways to do it (I'd probably favor multiple lists with a single list overlaid, but that also comes at a price of its own in parsing and reassembling data). But the cost of doing it is high, the complexity it adds is relatively high, and the final result performs slower than even Java. For highly specialized things that only one or a few people need (for example, a sonar dial widget for a Battleship game, or an orthogonal grid library for visual simulations), sometimes you just gotta roll up your sleeves and cut some code. I'm okay with that. Sometimes I even enjoy it. :) But independent column alignment is so very central to so much of what so many people want to build in Rev, and have wanted for so long, that I believe we're at a point where it can be reasonably said to be expected in the engine. Much of what people need to display are numbers. It's not just the 261 votes for that request that matter. Those of us using the product now are a small number compared to those we need to see using it five years from now. It's that much-larger audience of newcomers who will need it most, so they can just drop it in and move on to more interesting things like learning arcane SQL syntax, and along the way gain the feeling that they couldn't possibly use anything else because anything else would be too much work. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Table inspector from 4W
Hi, Somebody know where can try this Inspector Palette that appear in the jpg? Or many info about this? I read this in the improve-revolution list some days ago... For example, a lot of my stuff lately requires display of data in lists in which I need an iTunes-quality display, with resizable columns that support sorting, etc.: http://fourthworldlabs.com/table.jpg Cheers, Josep M ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
Josep, I'm not sure if Richard Gaskin is licensing that table component yet or not (www.fourthworld.com). He had qualms a couple of years ago about it not being ready, but that may have changed. You could also look at Chipp's AltFldHeader. I believe it is doing something similar. It is a deceptively simple approach to table fields, and is configured somewhat differently to Richard's. Hmm.. I just searched Chipp's website (www.altuit.com), and couldn't find it. Maybe he has withdrawn it. Hopefully, he'll see this and mention if it is still available. Bernard On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Josep M Yepes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Somebody know where can try this Inspector Palette that appear in the jpg? Or many info about this? I read this in the improve-revolution list some days ago... For example, a lot of my stuff lately requires display of data in lists in which I need an iTunes-quality display, with resizable columns that support sorting, etc.: http://fourthworldlabs.com/table.jpg Cheers, Josep M ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Table inspector from 4W
altFldHeader is still with the other altPlugins at: http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/altPluginCover/About.htm I really need to update that website so it's easier to navigate and find stuff. I also released a new version of altXray-- beta. This one adds the ability to show 'separator' comments in the handler list to better organize scripts which have lots of handlers. Clicking the update button on altXray should get you the latest version. Shift-click the disk icon on altXray to see the instructions on how to use it. best, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
