Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 12:15:53 PM -0800, tk wrote: > > >or quietly being given, a copy of an employer's software meant that > MS Office products gained near-ubiquity. > Assuming the organization is not SoHo sized, or smaller, unless the > person negotiating with Microsoft for licenses is a complete idiot, > the license will allow for each employee to install MSO on their > home computer, for the duration of their employment, or the > corporate license expires, whichever comes first. may I ask you one real world case where this actually happened? Thanks, Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hi :) Errr, just to highlight the point that while i think Doc (NOT DocX) is the best format for file-sharing right now it is not a good future-proof format for long-term storage. ODF is better for storage because it's implementation is closer to the specifications drawn up as it's ISO standard. In 20-30 years or even longer it is likely to be much easier to throw together something to read all documents saved in ODF format. Doc and DocX implementations are too far from their written specs and too variable across different versions of MS Office. Regards from Tom :) On 30 November 2013 20:44, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > Pedro is right and i like his solution. People were/are happy to > download and install Adobe Acrobat to read PDFs. > > The minor amendment i would make is that Doc is MUCH better for > interoperability than DocX. Doc is almost always smooth but i'm sure > it has it's occasional problems. DocX often seems to have problems > just as Rtf never achieved MS's promise of being an interoperable > format either. Doc used to have much more trouble but MS seem to be > doing a lot less to develop it now that it's not the default format in > MS Office now so it's settled into being a smooth and fairly reliable > stepping stone between many different programs. > > However ODF is a lot more secure and each of the different versions > has been fully documented. All the various programs that use ODF > implement it as per the written spec except where bug-reports have > been posted against the app to "flag-up" divergence. LO and OO add a > little more functionality to the 1.2 standard and have written that up > as "1.2 (Extended)" and have presumably pushed that to the OASIS > consortium to be included in the next update to the format even though > that is likely to be many years away. > https://www.oasis-open.org/ > > OASIS developed the format, not Sun, not TDF, not Oracle and not > Apache. The consortium has more than 5,000 participants representing > over 600 organizations and individual members in more than 65 > countries. TDF is in that 5,000 but so is IBM and even Microsoft. > > > Many other programs use ODF; > AbiWord > Adobe Buzzword > Apache OpenOffice > Atlantis Word Processor > Calligra Suite > Corel WordPerfect Office X6 > Evince > Google Drive (was Google Docs) > Gnumeric > IBM Lotus Symphony > Inkscape exports .odg > KOffice > LibreOffice > Microsoft Office 2007 (from service pack 2 release) - errr but badly > and breaks spreadsheets > Microsoft Office 2010 - errr also badly and still breaks spreadsheets > Microsoft Office 2013 > Microsoft SkyDrive / Office Web Apps > NeoOffice > Okular > OpenOffice.org > Scribus imports .odt and .odg > SoftMaker Office > Sun Microsystems StarOffice > WordPad 6.1 (Windows 7) partial support. > Zoho Office Suite > > Regards from > Tom :) > > > On 30 November 2013 18:44, Phil Troy wrote: >> Hi! >> >> I noticed earlier that there was a brief mention of incompatability between >> libreoffice files and microsoft office files. This is a major problem that >> has been going on for years and it is a major stumbling block to achieving >> the libreoffice goal "to eliminate the digital divide in society by giving >> everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge to enable them >> to participate as full citizens in the 21st century" >> >> This issue has existed for years. Importing files from microsoft office to >> libreoffice corrupts the files and documents. This should have been fixed >> by somehow cleaning the imported document, even if it meant some loss of >> formatting, during the import process. If the above goal is to be taken >> seriously, this needs to be one of the highest priorities. Period. >> >> Phil Troy >> >> >> -- >> Philip M. Troy, Ph.D. >> >> Process & Quantitative Decision Support/Systems Analyst >> Les Entreprises TROYWARE >> p...@philtroy.com >> www.PhilTroy.com >> >> Adjunct Professor of Surgery >> McGill University >> philip.t...@mcgill.ca >> >> >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> Problems? >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted >> -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Bug report -- Libre Ofice version 4.1.3.2 (again)
Version: 4.1.3.2 Build ID: 70feb7d99726f064edab4605a8ab84 0c50ec57a Libre Office Writer: The ability to draw and erase lines in tables is missing, hence for instance it is not possible (that I know of) to use Writer to create an echelon table such as a table of dominoes (see attached image for an example of what I mean), even though Writer will correctly load such a document created in Word. Libre Office Calc: The END key functionality is not implemented correctly; pressing END causes an immediate jump to the last active column of the current spreadsheet. What is *supposed* to happen is that END acts as a shift key; pressing END and then an arrow key causes one of the following to happen: 1) If currently on a non-empty cell, move to the last non-empty cell in the current block in the direction pressed. 2) If currently on an empty cell, move to the next non-empty cell in that direction; or if there are none, to the start/end a appropriate. It is not possible to edit an Excel template (.xlt); attempting to do so causes a new document to be created based on the template. If trying to open a template, rather than explicitly requesting a new document, one should be asked whether editing the template itself, or a new document based on it, is what is required. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 10:57:05 AM -0500, Felmon Davis wrote: > I concur that the rhetoric about drug-dealing is too heated and is > inaccurate. even if that were true, in most practical cases is the most effective, if not simply the ONLY way, to make ordinary computer users pay attention for at least ONE minute to the fact that they do have a dependency problem, and to what ACTUALLY causes that dependency. otherwise we'll remain stuck to discuss irrelevant or useless measures like this: > if Microsoft offered Word, WordPerfect, LO or whatever and said, > take your pick, that would be different. when the only thing that is really necessary is to stop using proprietary **formats** > the difference would be that users would see alternatives and trial > them. and how this would change anything, as long as the only way to exchange files with other users (ESPECIALLY public administration) with the smallest possible amount of compatibility issues remained to use MSO, because nobody, including many FOSS advocates, bothers enough to demand open file formats? the only practical outcome would be some variation of: "I like WordPerfect much better than MSO, but it makes all the files I send to my boss look funny, so I have to use MSO too" Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:38:12 AM +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > > So Marco's personal beef with "continuing to promote the software > > ahead of the format" kinda misses the point that we never really put > > any effort into promoting the program. Any such effort used to be > > severely hampered by Sun. Promoting the program does seem to have > > worked a LOT better in the last 3 years than it worked in the > > preceding decade. We seem to be getting somewhere at last! > > Marco's points are in my own opinion not to be discarded as such. > However I believe that Marco mixes marketing and the strategy of an > ecosystem. Hi Charles-H, after a statement like this, hordes of people from all sectors of the economy that at this point would stop and just ask you "so what? I mean, what's the difference between marketing and strategy???" But yours IS a fair point, because I too, in this specific thread, have mixed different "we" in my previous message. Sometimes "we" should have been "we advocates of LO", other times it meant in my mind "we all supporters of open standards", and I didn't make it clear enough. Of course, - no group can "save the world" alone - members of each group (have to) have different priorities and goals - people who choose to work specifically on LO/AOO/Calligra... (even if work is "only" providing volunteer support here or elsewhere) have to talk of that **software** more than file formats in general, digital divides and so on I have NO PROBLEM with all that. My only point is that the typical LO/AOO advocate should in almost all context to something like (making numbers up now just to outline the general concept!!!) FIRST, talk 20% of the time of formats THEN, talk 80% of how cool LO/AOO etc is otherwise we won't get anywhere quickly enough (see the "twelve years" post I already mentioned here) Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
Hi :) Have you tried documentation https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications and the Faq? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq Regards from Tom :) On 1 December 2013 01:38, Kevin O'Brien wrote: > Is there a source for detailed information on frame positioning in Writer? > > Thanks, > > -- > Kevin B. O'Brien > zwiln...@gmail.com > http://google.me/+kevinobrien > Facebook is Evil. Cancel your account. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 17:27:19 PM -0500, James Knott wrote: > M. Fioretti wrote: > > *Big* charities often have the problems that Jonathon said. Very > > small organizations, instead, need to spend zero time/money on > > maintaining/re-learning the software they have to use, because it > > would be all resources subtracted to working in the streets with > > the people they assist. That's why they stick to proprietary > > software in general, not just MSO. > > You've just described why it's better to move from older versions of > MS Office to LO or OO than to have to learn how to use the ribbon > etc. learning how to use the ribbon takes MUCH less time than manually reformatting years worth of files that you must keep using. Yes, a charity with just some tens of SIMPLE files they just reuse all the time will spend less time/money installing LO/AOO on their only available computer than learning the ribbon AND buying a new pc just to use the newest MSO. Whereas any other similar group which had just a few more files, and just some macros and idiotic, uselessly complex formatting here and there, and maybe is working off the personal laptops of its volunteers who just pirate everything anyway... will spend much less total time/money in learning the ribbon than converting all its document. THAT's what I meant by "maintaining/re-learning", sorry if it wasn't clear. Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
On 12/1/2013 6:09 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Have you tried documentation https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications and the Faq? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq Regards from Tom :) Tom, I looked through the TOC and did a search for "frame" and "frames" and did not find any information on frame positioning. Now, it is entirely possible that I am blind, but a reference link would be appreciated. bill On 1 December 2013 01:38, Kevin O'Brien wrote: Is there a source for detailed information on frame positioning in Writer? Thanks, -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwiln...@gmail.com http://google.me/+kevinobrien Facebook is Evil. Cancel your account. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hi :) Retraining to use the ribbon-bar is easier than reformating tons of documents but why reformat them? It's possible to keep the old version of MS Office and install LibreOffice alongside it. Then new things can be gradually moved to LibreOffice. Migration rather than switch-over. The LibreOffice menus are more similar to the old style MS Office 2003 menus. The ribbon-bar changes with each new release of MS Office. So even after retraining to use the ribbon-bar it guarantees having to do more retraining later on. So in the short-term it might be less disruptive but in the longer term it means periodic disruption. Moving to LibreOffice makes the longer-term easier. Regards from Tom :) On 1 December 2013 11:06, M. Fioretti wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 17:27:19 PM -0500, James Knott wrote: >> M. Fioretti wrote: > >> > *Big* charities often have the problems that Jonathon said. Very >> > small organizations, instead, need to spend zero time/money on >> > maintaining/re-learning the software they have to use, because it >> > would be all resources subtracted to working in the streets with >> > the people they assist. That's why they stick to proprietary >> > software in general, not just MSO. >> >> You've just described why it's better to move from older versions of >> MS Office to LO or OO than to have to learn how to use the ribbon >> etc. > > learning how to use the ribbon takes MUCH less time than manually > reformatting years worth of files that you must keep using. > > Yes, a charity with just some tens of SIMPLE files they just reuse all > the time will spend less time/money installing LO/AOO on their only > available computer than learning the ribbon AND buying a new pc just > to use the newest MSO. > > Whereas any other similar group which had just a few more files, and > just some macros and idiotic, uselessly complex formatting here and > there, and maybe is working off the personal laptops of its volunteers > who just pirate everything anyway... will spend much less total > time/money in learning the ribbon than converting all its document. > > THAT's what I meant by "maintaining/re-learning", sorry if it wasn't > clear. > Marco > -- > > M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net > > Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how > software is used *around* you > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hi :) +1 Sadly that does seem to be true but having done the shock&awe and grabbed their attention it's time to consider getting back to reality Regards from Tom :) On 1 December 2013 10:31, M. Fioretti wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 10:57:05 AM -0500, Felmon Davis wrote: > >> I concur that the rhetoric about drug-dealing is too heated and is >> inaccurate. > > in most practical cases is the most effective, > if not simply the ONLY way, to make ordinary computer users pay > attention for at least ONE minute to the fact that they do have a > dependency problem, and to what ACTUALLY causes that dependency. > > otherwise we'll remain stuck -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Paolo, First off, every company has periodic changes in ui and features when they upgrade. I'd be concerned if somebody was offering me an upgrade that looked and worked exactly like the previous version. Also, using the term steal in regards to discounted prices is more than a bit inflammatory. Second, schools are verry good marketing targets. If students grow up using one particular office suite, chances are that they'll continue using that suite. Almost all of the Apple fans I met came out of university graphics arts programs. Add in the student discount rate and the odds of the person purchasing that program on their own being very low, and you've got a very good success rate. It sounds to me like your school does not have a well thought out upgrade protocol. This would be true whether or not they were on MSO, LO, OO, etc On 11/29/2013 2:57 PM, Paolo Debortoli wrote: > hi. I work in a state school, using ms windows and ms office... i think I > know the policy of microsoft. I think they use a sort of (apparent) > programmed obsolescence for the software. I mean: periodically they add a > new version with some changes in interface, macro programming, functions and > file structure, which is installed on new computers. the new version is > voluntarily incompatible with the previous ones. It's a matter of marketing, > not innovation. where I work, people are always complaining that what works > on a computer (files, macro etc..) doesn't work on another. the school, on > the other way, doesn't want to spend money on new software licenses (very > expensive in italy). so, why don't they change ? they don't know enough > about LibreOffice; they would need demonstrations or some training (some > training is done, but always on ms office, I don't know which version... are > they trained every new version?), I guess... I > think microsoft did the same politics with charities and schools: > discounted prices (but they are still stealing money somehow...). other > software producers (autodesk) are doing similar things... schools are good > marketing targets... ideas? > > > > > On Friday, November 29, 2013 8:31 PM, John Meyer > wrote: > > I didn't know we considered trialware "cunning". > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:04 AM, James Knott wrote: > >> Tom Davies wrote: >>> Also on newer machines MS have started running a cunning scheme >>> whereby people get to use a trial version of MS Office which then >>> stops working after a month or so. In order to keep on using it >>> people have to pay an extra bit. >> >> That happened to a friend of mine about 3 years ago. She's now running >> OpenOffice. >> >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> Problems? >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted > >> >> > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Marco wrote: ... because nobody, including many FOSS advocates, bothers enough to demand open file formats? My guess is that those of us who use LO in general, and those of us on this list, in particular, are a little more computer savvy than the typical office worker using MS-Office. When sharing files with others, if I were to demand that they send it to me in an .ODT format, they would first question what the #$%^ I was talking about. They would then not have a clue of how to get it there, claim they don't have the time to learn how to do it, and finally wonder why in heavens name I would be asking for such a goofy file format when *everybody* uses MS. I believe standards are determined by what users actually use, and right now, it appears that most users are using MS. Thus, it remains incumbent upon us in the minority who know how to create DOC files to accommodate our less knowledgeable colleagues. So, my computer has Office (Starter version), LO *and* WordPerfect, so I can talk to just about anybody. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Virgil Arrington wrote: > So, my computer has Office (Starter version), LO *and* WordPerfect, so > I can talk to just about anybody. No PC-Write??? ;-) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hello Marco, Le Sun, 1 Dec 2013 11:54:27 +0100, "M. Fioretti" a écrit : > On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 11:38:12 AM +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > > > > So Marco's personal beef with "continuing to promote the software > > > ahead of the format" kinda misses the point that we never really > > > put any effort into promoting the program. Any such effort used > > > to be severely hampered by Sun. Promoting the program does seem > > > to have worked a LOT better in the last 3 years than it worked in > > > the preceding decade. We seem to be getting somewhere at last! > > > > Marco's points are in my own opinion not to be discarded as such. > > However I believe that Marco mixes marketing and the strategy of an > > ecosystem. > > Hi Charles-H, > > after a statement like this, hordes of people from all sectors of the > economy that at this point would stop and just ask you "so what? I > mean, what's the difference between marketing and strategy???" > Oh there is a difference of focus, concern, and thinking. If I sell sausages, I'd better be good at selling them by talking about their price, their taste and the great hot dogs I can make with them. But if I'm growing the sausage manufacturers'ecosystem, I can pitch very much the same points, but that does not do anything to address the concerns of the ecosystem's partners. I'd rather explain, for instance, what rebates system we can benefit from, or how we can pool our suppliers, etc. The two are not mutuallly exclusive, they just work on different levels. > But yours IS a fair point, because I too, in this specific thread, > have mixed different "we" in my previous message. Sometimes "we" > should have been "we advocates of LO", other times it meant in my mind > "we all supporters of open standards", and I didn't make it clear > enough. > > Of course, > > - no group can "save the world" alone > - members of each group (have to) have different priorities and goals > > - people who choose to work specifically on LO/AOO/Calligra... (even > if work is "only" providing volunteer support here or elsewhere) > have to talk of that **software** more than file formats in general, > digital divides and so on > > I have NO PROBLEM with all that. My only point is that the typical > LO/AOO advocate should in almost all context to something like (making > numbers up now just to outline the general concept!!!) > > FIRST, talk 20% of the time of formats > THEN, talk 80% of how cool LO/AOO etc is > > otherwise we won't get anywhere quickly enough (see the "twelve years" > post I already mentioned here) Marco, I remember you've been a strong advocate of open standards for quite a long time, and both of us, among many others, have pitched and expressed ourselves about the fundamental importance of a standard format like ODF. We went all the way to the ISO and we know the good and the bad that came out of this. My position remains unchanged about open standards. But as you know there was a time when the ecosystem was much stronger and unified to promote ODF. Today, things are very different: - the ODF ecosystem is not so unified (and to explain why probably needs a whitepaper) - Microsoft implements ODF... in a serious and very efficient way. These two factors have changed the battlefield, but one thing they haven't changed is that despite the calculations and hopes that were formed several years ago, the adoption of ODF has not really picked up and is even not directly related to the migrations to LibreOffice. On the other hand, people still don't make the difference between their documents and the office suite they use. I like your ratio above, but only if we have implementations that offer something else than an office suite, meaning that people will see the value of ODF not just for the freedoms they can benefit from, but as well if they see the value in all the different possibilities they can have by choosing the format. Today, this is not happening, even though the ODF ecosystem is alive and growing (albeit slowly). FWIW, the Document Foundation puts emphasis on open standards and has done so since day one in its manifesto: https://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ Best, Charles. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Bug report -- Libre Ofice version 4.1.3.2 (again)
For What It's Worth: I am using Writer Version: 4.1.3.2 (Build ID: 70feb7d99726f064edab4605a8ab840c50ec57a) on 64 bit Ubuntu Linux 12.04 LTS, and use tables extensively with and without borders and with mixed borders, but haven't run into any problems with border lines. Can you mention what OS etc. you have the problem with? -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Bug-report-Libre-Ofice-version-4-1-3-2-again-tp4085918p4085943.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: Re: moving to new version of MS Office
I'm thinking we've got troll-sighting On 11/30/2013 10:25 AM, jomali wrote: Once again, Umas, you set up a straw man and demolish him! FOSS means "Free and Open Source Software". It doesn't necessarily refer to software created by some pure amateur in his garage. As long as the creator (commercial firm, university or private individual) releases the source at no cost, it is FOSS. On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Urmas wrote: "Peter West": Non-FOSS (BSD-licensed software): Mac OS X (based on BSD and the Mach kernel) Linux gcc Developed by commercial companies: Android (based on Linux) apache Firefox OpenJDK saxon LibreOffice So far FOSS 'community' created nothing successful. Everything was designed and implemented by real software developers or universities. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On 11/30/2013 3:44 PM, James Knott wrote: Urmas wrote: "James Knott" сообщил(а) в новостях следующее:529918d1.30...@rogers.com... ...and then hold [created documents] hostage, until the users coughs up for MS Office. There is immense number of software capable import DOC files, due to their format being virtually unchanged since 1997 or 2007. Including the Word Viewer, of course. The problem is so many are not aware of alternatives. If they want to access their documents, they think they have to pay MS. I do what I can to educate them. BTW, several years ago, I worked for a company that used OpenOfice. However, I suspect it was because they were too cheap to pay for MS Office. ;-) I know the feeling. Still, you get in when you can and how you can. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sun, Dec 01, 2013 11:41:58 AM +, Tom Davies wrote: > Hi :) > Retraining to use the ribbon-bar is easier than reformating tons of > documents but why reformat them? It's possible to keep the old > version of MS Office and install LibreOffice alongside it. > > Then new things can be gradually moved to LibreOffice. Migration > rather than switch-over. sorry Tom but... do you need that **I** don't know this stuff, or would be against it? I am talking of how the rest of the world thinks, not us already on lists like this. Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Sun, Dec 01, 2013 14:14:50 PM +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > as you know there was a time when the ecosystem was much stronger > and unified to promote ODF. > > Today, things are very different: > - the ODF ecosystem is not so unified (and to explain why probably > needs a whitepaper) so true... I too am very unhappy about this. Marco -- M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how software is used *around* you -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Le Sun, 1 Dec 2013 16:11:03 +0100, "M. Fioretti" a écrit : > On Sun, Dec 01, 2013 14:14:50 PM +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > > > as you know there was a time when the ecosystem was much stronger > > and unified to promote ODF. > > > > Today, things are very different: > > - the ODF ecosystem is not so unified (and to explain why probably > > needs a whitepaper) > > so true... I too am very unhappy about this. > > Marco > So am I. But it seems to me we are past the stage where things could "revert" back to the old days, whatever that means. Best, -- Charles-H. Schulz Co-founder, The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
LibreOffice as a BRAND is growing stronger every day. It is easily recognized once it has been introduced. When the name was chosen it must have been uppermost in the TDF mindset that they were creating a brand.. Promoting the Brand is surely what matters to all who want to see LibreOffice succeed. All the other aspects such as Format, Groups etc., will benefit as a consequence. The brand, LibreOffice encapsulates all of these. PROMOTE LIBREOFFICE! Tink. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Formats-failed-marketing-was-Fwd-Cost-of-MS-Office-relative-to-LO-was-Fwd-libreoffice-users-Re-movine-tp4085711p4085957.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On 01/12/13 14:14, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > Today, things are very different: > - the ODF ecosystem is not so unified (and to explain why probably > needs a whitepaper) Unfortunately, the largest company in the ecosystem is now focused on other objectives, and has been instrumental in splitting the ecosystem (and keeping it divided, in a way which makes it probably impossible to reunite). > - Microsoft implements ODF... in a serious and very efficient way. We should be more effective in leveraging MS ODF support, though. -- Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com mob +39.348.5653829 - sip/jabber it...@libreoffice.org skype italovignoli - hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Marco . Fioretti wrote: >> Assuming the organization is not SoHo sized, or smaller, unless the person >> negotiating with Microsoft for licenses is a complete idiot, the license >> will allow for each employee to install MSO on their home computer, for the >> duration of their employment, or the corporate license expires, whichever >> comes first. >may I ask you one real world case where this actually happened? I'm aware of three companies that did that, of which only one is still around, having been bought out by a competitor. (A Candian outfit whose DBA was Telemart, but whose corporate name was something else, and whose employees identified themselves by a different moniker, and whose local business license was yet another name.) One SoHo sized business I had a contract with, did have a policy of allowing employees, but not independent contractors to install the software on their home computer. I don't know if that was through their license, or if it simply bought the package from Costco. That practice is occasionally discussed in the trade rags, usually given as a justification of why Microsoft bases the number of licenses that are required, upon the total number of employees, and not the number of employees whose job requires a desktop computer, or the number of employees who use MSO as part of their daily work routine. I will grant that in some, perhaps even most cases, neither the IT department, nor HR will tell employees about this "fringe benefit". There also is the "academic license" option, which, with some effort, is fairly easy for most people to qualify under. jonathon -- Sent from the eating establishment at the far side of the Universe, at the begining of time. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
James wrote: No PC-Write??? ;-) Oh, stab me in the heart. My 64 bit computer tells me it won't run PC-Write (yes, I've tried). Also, my printers won't recognize DOS printer drivers. At any rate, PC-Write's document files were simple ASCII files with a few formatting codes thrown in; quite similar to today's Markdown (or LaTeX) files. So, when I need access to an old PC-Write document, I just load it into a text editor like NoteTab, and strip out the formatting codes. I can then load it into *any* word processor. I've done this many times. In fact, when sharing documents with others, regardless of their programs, I've often found it necessary to take the documents down to plain text, and then reformat with my own preferred styles. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Jonathan wrote: Assuming the organization is not SoHo sized, or smaller, unless the person negotiating with Microsoft for licenses is a complete idiot, the license will allow for each employee to install MSO on their home computer, for the duration of their employment, or the corporate license expires, whichever comes first. may I ask you one real world case where this actually happened? I'm aware of three companies that did that... It's been many years since I last purchased WordPerfect, but at the time, it's standard license allowed one to install a copy on both a business computer and a home computer (or laptop) as long as the program was only used on one of the computers at a time. I don't know if it still has that license language, but at the time, I found it very freeing. I tend to be a little obsessive about respecting software companies' licenses, which is why I love FOSS. Virgil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Well, I've been at a couple of companies which most definitely *did not* allow you to install the software at home. That wasn't part of the license terms, and they only had enough seats for those that needed the software. For some products, Visio being one I recall, I couldn't even install that at work, as they didn't have enough licenses, and only those that would routinely need it got to install it. This was a medium sized software development firm, so not some big corporate, but it sure wasn't common as far as I knew to be allowed to install MSO at home. Nobody else I knew did it on a company license, except those that used the same laptop at home and at work. Paul On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 12:51:24 -0500 "Virgil Arrington" wrote: > Jonathan wrote: > > >>> Assuming the organization is not SoHo sized, or smaller, unless > >>> the person negotiating with Microsoft for licenses is a complete > >>> idiot, the license will allow for each employee to install MSO on > >>> their home computer, for the duration of their employment, or the > >>> corporate license expires, whichever comes first. > > >>may I ask you one real world case where this actually happened? > > >I'm aware of three companies that did that... > > It's been many years since I last purchased WordPerfect, but at the > time, it's standard license allowed one to install a copy on both a > business computer and a home computer (or laptop) as long as the > program was only used on one of the computers at a time. I don't know > if it still has that license language, but at the time, I found it > very freeing. I tend to be a little obsessive about respecting > software companies' licenses, which is why I love FOSS. > > Virgil > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 19:20:03 -0500 "Virgil Arrington" wrote: > I wouldn't consider it either cunning or holding people hostage to > provide them with a free trial of software that is otherwise only > available for a price. That, indeed, has been the essence of > shareware -- try before you buy. Anybody obtaining a trial version of > MS-Office is clearly told that it is a trial version; no cunning, no > deception. Actually, I have not found this to be the case. Most of the people I know that have used this "trialware" have bought a new computer, found it comes with Office, with no explanation about being trialware, and started using it, only to find that it starts warning them it will expire, and that they need to purchase a valid copy to continue using it. They have no idea that there are alternatives, nor did they expect to have to pay more once the computer was bought, and now just simply shrug, name call MS for being penny-pinching b**s, and go buy whatever version of Office the local computer store sells them. > I'm no fan of MS, and I'm sure I don't fully understand all of its > business practices, but I truly hope that disdain for Redmond is not > the primary motivation for LO and other forms of FOSS. And, yet, it's > a theme that recurs on nearly every FOSS related forum I read. I dislike MS's business practices. They've been caught out too many times doing things that are harmful to the end user. I don't trust them to give me quality software that will remain quality software without pitilessly trying to squeez me for evey cent they can. As such, I dislike using their products, and I most certainly don't pay for them, other than where it is forced on me simply for buying a computer. For me, that is one good reason to use FOSS software. Another is I believe in the FOSS philosophy. > IMHO, it's better to focus on what's good about LO than what's evil > about MS. And that is a third. When talking to most computer users I know, even ones who do know computers well, I often find they couldn't care less about MS's business policy, they either use MS products and tell me about how they're actually not that bad, or simply accept that everybody else does, so they must too, and don't know or care about MS's business practices. For them I punt the good about FOSS software first, and leave out the MS business practices debate. That's a personal reason for choosing FOSS, one that I will explain to people, but don't find to be a major selling point. Paul -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hi :) We don't all agree on anything very much. It's only through discussions that we arrive at a mutual understanding. One of the great things about FOSS, imo, is that we can all have very different ideas about how to do things and yet work together. It's often precisely because someone thinks differently that things can move forwards and avoid getting stale. I think a few of us are finding our position about promotion of ODF is changing as a result of one of these threads. People have put forwards points that i hadn't thought about much before. Hopefully we will reach a sensible position either this time or in a few weeks when the issue crops up again after we've had change to absorb the points and see how it plays out in the world around us. Wrt migrations vs switch-over i think we need to be very strong and quite forceful about migration being the better route. Switch-over is the way the MS world does things and it means the slightest little petty problem can be a major stumbling block. In the MS world the user gets blamed and the onus is on the user to work it out or get training. There is no choice offered. When people are trying to move to FOSS it's those tiny bumps that leads to people giving up on FOSS. If people migrate instead then they seldom even notice such hiccups, it's all a lot smoother and they begin to realise that FOSS is better. So i think we need to be quite quick to jump on it when people talk about replacing MS Office with LibreOffice/OpenOffice and make it clear that people can keep their old version of MS Office running alongside. Regards from Tom :) On 1 December 2013 15:07, M. Fioretti wrote: > On Sun, Dec 01, 2013 11:41:58 AM +, Tom Davies wrote: >> Hi :) >> Retraining to use the ribbon-bar is easier than reformating tons of >> documents but why reformat them? It's possible to keep the old >> version of MS Office and install LibreOffice alongside it. >> >> Then new things can be gradually moved to LibreOffice. Migration >> rather than switch-over. > > sorry Tom but... do you need that **I** don't know this stuff, or > would be against it? I am talking of how the rest of the world thinks, > not us already on lists like this. > > Marco > -- > > M. Fioretti http://mfioretti.com http://stop.zona-m.net > > Your own civil rights and the quality of your life heavily depend on how > software is used *around* you > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Formats & failed marketing, was: Fwd: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: [libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Hi :) I think the largest company in the eco-system is beginning to be TDF! IBM is larger but it doesn't seem to want to be a big name in office desktops. Does the ODF Alliance still exist? Their website seems to be dead or perhaps just very out-of-date. Perhaps people from TDF could get involved in updating it? Perhaps Apache might be interested in giving it a boost too? Perhaps it's just that it's main reasons for existence are over now? OASIS is a LOT more lively. Last i heard there were some (or at least 1) people from TDF involved in that. Also there seems to be TDF people involved in FSF (or is it FSF people involved in TDF?). Anyway, either way is good. Regards from Tom :) On 1 December 2013 16:40, Italo Vignoli wrote: > On 01/12/13 14:14, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > >> Today, things are very different: >> - the ODF ecosystem is not so unified (and to explain why probably >> needs a whitepaper) > > Unfortunately, the largest company in the ecosystem is now focused on > other objectives, and has been instrumental in splitting the ecosystem > (and keeping it divided, in a way which makes it probably impossible to > reunite). > >> - Microsoft implements ODF... in a serious and very efficient way. > > We should be more effective in leveraging MS ODF support, though. > > -- > Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com > mob +39.348.5653829 - sip/jabber it...@libreoffice.org > skype italovignoli - hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: moving to new version of MS Office
"Tom Davies": ...Rtf never achieved MS's promise of being an interoperable format either. RTF is just a textual dump of document structures. It is as close to lossless interchange format as it can be. However ODF is a lot more secure All text formats are secure as they do not contain machine-interpretable data. and each of the different versions has been fully documented. No way. Please link me some 'full documentation' of text:list-level-style-number@style:num-format attribute, for example. Many other programs use ODF; Apache OpenOffice, IBM Lotus Symphony, LibreOffice, NeoOffice, OpenOffice.org, are the same software. All others programs do not use it as a native format and do not support many of the features. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: Re: moving to new version of MS Office
"James Knott": Ever hear of Linux? Linux is a clone of UNIX, an epitome of a proprietary operating system. it's the OS used on the space station. Proven a hoax by Agency. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Bug report -- Libre Ofice version 4.1.3.2 (again)
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Robert Baker wrote: > Version: 4.1.3.2 > Build ID: 70feb7d99726f064edab4605a8ab84 > 0c50ec57a > > Libre Office Writer: > > The ability to draw and erase lines in tables is missing, hence for > instance it is not possible (that I know of) to use Writer to create an > echelon table such as a table of dominoes (see attached image for an > example of what I mean), even though Writer will correctly load such a > document created in Word. > Very easy to do. Remove all borders from the table, then use the borders button to apply borders to each cell you want to outline. > > Libre Office Calc: > > The END key functionality is not implemented correctly; pressing END causes > an immediate jump to the last active column of the current spreadsheet. > What is *supposed* to happen is that END acts as a shift key; pressing END > and then an arrow key causes one of the following to happen: > > 1) If currently on a non-empty cell, move to the last non-empty cell in the > current block in the direction pressed. > > 2) If currently on an empty cell, move to the next non-empty cell in that > direction; or if there are none, to the start/end a appropriate. > True if Excel is your standard of "correct implementation". The LO implementation is different. You can find out the LO implementation by looking up "Shortcut Keys" in help. > > It is not possible to edit an Excel template (.xlt); attempting to do so > causes a new document to be created based on the template. If trying to > open a template, rather than explicitly requesting a new document, one > should be asked whether editing the template itself, or a new document > based on it, is what is required. > That is correct functionality. The point of creating a template is to not have it editable, rather to have it open to a new document. When it does so, edit the new document and save it over the old template, if that is what you want to do. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Anchoring frames to paragraphs vs. to characters
On 11/30/2013 05:17 PM, Kevin O'Brien wrote: I am having trouble understanding the difference between these two options. I think I get anchoring to a page, and anchoring as a character is pretty clear. But I have not yet grokked how to paragraph and to character are different. Can anyone enlighten me? I believe that anchoring to a paragraph is the same as anchoring to the first character in the paragraph. If you anchor to a character, then you can be certain that it will be on the same page as the character. Consider a few operations. Merge two paragraphs: BEFORE: par 1 [ANCHOR] par 2 AFTER: [ANCHOR] par 1 par 2 If I am anchored to a paragraph, if I insert two pages of text to the front of my paragraph, the frame will not move because the location of the first character in the paragraph did not move. The same is not true if the frame is anchored to a specific character. I have no idea, off hand, how to anchor a frame to a specific character; but if I was creative, I could probably figure it out! -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] How-to draw Square around math/formula??
can you insert the formula into a frame and then give the frame a border? On 11/30/2013 05:01 PM, Gary Kline wrote: Organization: Thought Unlimited. Public service Unix since 1986. Of_Interest: With 27 years of service to the Unix community. hi guys, I've tried everything I ccan think of [ besides asking various lists ] without any luck. what I am trying to do *seems* simple, but no-joy. I have a simple equsion that I want to put INSIDE a square. can any libreoffice wizards clue me in? (The formula string is simply: int from a to R lim R rightarrow infinity and you guys can imaging what that outputs. ) How, then, do I get libreoffice|formula to create a medium-thickness "square" that I can save as, say, "Integraly.pdf". tia, gary kline -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
On 11/30/2013 08:38 PM, Kevin O'Brien wrote: Is there a source for detailed information on frame positioning in Writer? Thanks, Let me provide some context around Mr. O'Brien. 1. He is very smart. 2. He is well versed with OpenOffice. Sufficiently well versed, that I have seen him (in person) teach detailed classes on OpenOffice. In other words, I assume that he has looked in the obvious places. That said, and because Mr. Drescher asked, consider this link: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/9/96/WG40-WriterGuideLO.odt When I look at this document, Frames begins on page 120. The anchoring information is on page 123 and it is well written, and has the following relative to paragraph and character. *To Paragraph* The frame is associated with a paragraph and moves with the paragraph. It may be placed in the margin or another location. This method is useful as an alternative to a table for placing icons beside paragraphs. It is also used to center text on a page in documents which will be used in a master document (frames anchored to pages will disappear from the master document). *To Character* The frame is associated with a character but is not in the text sequence. It moves with the paragraph but may be placed in the margin or another location. This method is similar to anchoring to a paragraph. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
Hi Kevin, Kevin O'Brien schrieb: Is there a source for detailed information on frame positioning in Writer? Thanks, you can look into the spec http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1418758_253892949 Or do you need it in a macro? Kind regards Regina -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
Thanks to both Andrew and Regina, I think I am moving in the right direction. Regards, On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Regina Henschel wrote: > Hi Kevin, > > Kevin O'Brien schrieb: > >> Is there a source for detailed information on frame positioning in Writer? >> >> Thanks, >> > > you can look into the spec > http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1418758_253892949 > > Or do you need it in a macro? > > Kind regards > Regina > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwiln...@gmail.com http://google.me/+kevinobrien Facebook is Evil. Cancel your account. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] A feature, or ...?
On 2013-11-29 14:38, Peter West wrote: I suspect that at least part of the problem here is that it is sometimes difficult to see - especially with an inherited document - exactly how formatting has been applied and consequently how it might be removed. The problem is that _some_ formatting seems to get "stuck." This is either an implementation bug or, for some obscure reason, a design decision; which makes it a design bug. Named styles are exclusive. Even though a style is _based_ on another style, recursively, applying a named style overrides the previous named style, whether the old style is an ancestor of the new style, or a completely different beast. That should be that as far as applying named styles goes. All that should be left is any "style fragments" that one has applied from the toolbar: bold, italic, etc; left, centered, etc; a particular font and so on. That may include bits of format applied through a format>paragraph or format>character menu, _provided_ that all of this formatting is removed by the 'Clear direct formatting' operation. _Everything_ else must be reset to the values defined (or defaulted) in the applied style. This should not be a problem. If you like the look of some styling, create a new named style from the selection. Then extend and modify as required. That's what styles are all about. The other thing is to clearly display the interaction of paragraph and list styles. The style name display should have the capacity to display ALL the named styles that are in play, and there should be a display option, similar to the 'Display special characters' button, to toggle 'Show direct formatting.' It all boils down to being able to determine the source of any formatting, and being able, easily, to reset all formatting to a named style or set of complementary style types; paragraph, character, list. And yes, your discussion does help. Peter West Yes, this discussion makes sense to me also, I would also like to be able to see the style outline and be able to see and swap styles from the outline view rather than click in every paragraph to see what style is applied. Although I can't think of one, there must be some inherent reason LO works like this, possibly so it can accommodate the jumble of non-styled documents from competing product imports. Steve ...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins. On 29 Nov 2013, at 4:44 am, Brian Barker wrote: I still don't understand why you consider any of this a difficulty. If you have a mixture of direct formatting along with character and paragraph styles, you may well wish to remove some parts of it, but not all. So it's useful to have more than one facility. Surely you would expect to need to remove the different parts of applied formatting separately - and delight that you were able to do so selectively. As far as I can see: o Format | Default Formatting removes both direct formatting (to characters or paragraphs) and formatting by character styles. o The Apply Style drop-down applies paragraph styles, so you'd expect "Clear formatting" there to reset the paragraph style to Default - and it does. But it also does the same as Format | Default Formatting as well. I suspect that at least part of the problem here is that it is sometimes difficult to see - especially with an inherited document - exactly how formatting has been applied and consequently how it might be removed. I trust this helps. Brian Barker -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Bug report -- Libre Ofice version 4.1.3.2 (again)
On 2013-12-02 08:41, jomali wrote: On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Robert Baker wrote: Version: 4.1.3.2 Build ID: 70feb7d99726f064edab4605a8ab84 0c50ec57a Libre Office Writer: The ability to draw and erase lines in tables is missing, hence for instance it is not possible (that I know of) to use Writer to create an echelon table such as a table of dominoes (see attached image for an example of what I mean), even though Writer will correctly load such a document created in Word. Very easy to do. Remove all borders from the table, then use the borders button to apply borders to each cell you want to outline. Libre Office Calc: The END key functionality is not implemented correctly; pressing END causes an immediate jump to the last active column of the current spreadsheet. What is *supposed* to happen is that END acts as a shift key; pressing END and then an arrow key causes one of the following to happen: 1) If currently on a non-empty cell, move to the last non-empty cell in the current block in the direction pressed. 2) If currently on an empty cell, move to the next non-empty cell in that direction; or if there are none, to the start/end a appropriate. True if Excel is your standard of "correct implementation". The LO implementation is different. You can find out the LO implementation by looking up "Shortcut Keys" in help. It is not possible to edit an Excel template (.xlt); attempting to do so causes a new document to be created based on the template. If trying to open a template, rather than explicitly requesting a new document, one should be asked whether editing the template itself, or a new document based on it, is what is required. That is correct functionality. The point of creating a template is to not have it editable, rather to have it open to a new document. When it does so, edit the new document and save it over the old template, if that is what you want to do. And I think once you have "saved as" once over the template, LO you are editing the template and you can continue to edit and save the template with just the save. Steve -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Detailed information on frame positioning Writer
On 12/01/2013 04:41 PM, Regina Henschel wrote: you can look into the spec http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1418758_253892949 o, smart! I had not considered looking at the spec! :-) -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: How do I set default date format in Writer?
El 2013-11-30 12:03 a.m., fos escribió: How can I set the date format in Writer so that whenever I select INSERT->FIELDS->DATE it will insert a hard December 31, 1999 (for example) instead of the 12/31/99 which is totally inappropriate for correspondence. I wish too, have a configurable date format. I inspected a document created with the following ad-hoc date format: domingo, 1 de diciembre del 2013 The date is registered with the following local style, not available in the style list. , de del The date field can't be saved in his fixed format as an automatic replaceable string of characters. I guess that the best approach is have a macro that inserts the date with the desired format and this macro is run when we create a paragraph with a style 'date', for instance. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Cost of MS Office relative to LO, was: Fwd: Re: moving to new version of MS Office
Typo there. Obviously you meant to say "non-proprietary." Peter West ...he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins. On 2 Dec 2013, at 4:32 am, Urmas wrote: > "James Knott": > >> Ever hear of Linux? > > Linux is a clone of UNIX, an epitome of a proprietary operating system. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] QA Call Reminder: Monday @ 19:30 UTC
Hi all, The QA Team is having another one of our marvelous bi-weekly calls tomorrow. All are welcome! The agendum for the meeting and information on how to join via your phone or browser are available here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2013/December_02 If you're new to the project and would like to get more involved, we'd love to see you on the call! Cheers, --R -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
