Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Joe Conner]

+1 to Virgil's comments.
Joe Conner, Poulsbo, WA USA

On 10/11/2015 02:24 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:



On 10/11/2015 02:37 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
+1 to both points.

The UI issue is cropping up more often but many people, get over their
initial dislike and prefer the return to sanity because it makes it 
easier

to find things and easier to learn new stuff.


UI changes frustrate me to no end. I tend to commit to learning a 
given piece of software so that its commands become second nature. 
Back in the days of DOS, I was a PC-Write wizard, having learned the 
old Wordstar Ctrl-key combinations and PC-Write's function key 
combinations. Certainly, the multi-tasking GUI's of Windows and Linux 
simply do more things, but I've never found any program with which I 
could match my productivity with PC-Write (in terms of just getting 
things done).


One frustration I've noticed recently is with LO's "Sidebar." In the 
past, I had my paragraph styles locked in a Sidebar. Now, the Styles 
box shares the Sidebar with the Properties, Gallery, and Navigator 
boxes, and when I open a new file, it defaults to the Properties box 
(a la AOO), when I *want* the Styles box. So, with every document, I 
now have to click on the Styles icon in the Sidebar. I've looked 
everywhere to find a way to make "Styles" the default Sidebar box, but 
with no luck. To, me this was a totally unnecessary UI "improvement."


If I could echo Andreas with a message to the developers. Please stop 
making changes just to make changes. Every UI change forces the user 
to change the way s/he uses the program, and those changes affect our 
personal performance and productivity, at least until we learn the new 
system. Yes, once the new UI is learned, it, too, becomes second 
nature, but I've rarely found a new UI to improve performance so much 
as to justify its replacement of the older way of working.


Virgil



--
Blessings, Joe
Joshua 24:15  "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."


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Re: [libreoffice-users] pptx files can't be opened when created with Impress 5.0.x

[Dave Liesse]

Something else to be aware of is that a presentation with sound is not 
compatible; the two programs handle sound completely differently.  
PowerPoint stores sound within the application, while Impress only 
stores links to the sound files (voice of experience here!).


Dave Liesse


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Digital signatures

[Евгений]

No one here used signatures?
No one can help or give some advices to resolve problem?


07.10.2015, 10:00, "Евгений" :
> Hello.
>
> Can someone help me with digital signatures?
>
> I tried LO 5.0.2, 4.4.5.2 and even AOO 4.1.1 on windows server 2008 r2.
>
> I have imported root CA certificate. I have copied private and public keys to 
> registry from token.
> My certificate is valid.
>
> When i use "File - Digital signatures" and try to add one to document - 
> nothing happens.
> I can see my certificate details from LO dialog, but when i select it and 
> press OK - none added to document.
>
> Document - ODT file.
>
> No errors or other messages appeared.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
You are welcome :)  I'm chuffed that i knew something you didn't already
know.  You often seem to be ahead of me with most things :)  Not by your
behaviour.  You don't "act superior".  You just say things that i didn't
know and so i learn from you.  So, i was glad to be able to help :)
Thanks and regards from
Tom :)


On 11 October 2015 at 23:29, jorge  wrote:
>
>> Hi Tom and all:
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation about Software Center, Synaptic and
>> Apt-get
>> command.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jorge Rodríguez
>>
>>
>> El dom, 11-10-2015 a las 15:40 +0100, Tom Davies escribió:
>> > Hi :)
>> > +1
>> > Although we often disagree with each other and have heated arguments at
>> > times i have a lot of respect for the technical support Andreas gives
>> and
>> > also for his links to or suggestions of other places that give good
>> > support.
>> >
>> > He is a classic example of someone who works in both communities.  Not
>> all
>> > have the same attitude (of course) but his way has a lot of energy about
>> > it, which is not always easy to be comfortable with, but his way does
>> seem
>> > to be an effective driving force at times.
>> >
>> >
>> > I really like Zen-Wiz's script that does the same job as Andreas'
>> > command-line.  Instead of having to type in the same commands each time
>> you
>> > would just double-click on the script file.  If the script is not
>> already
>> > in the "Extensions" library;
>> > https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/templates-and-extensions/
>> > then i hope he is is generous enough to add it in.  It is not really an
>> > Extension as such but having a 3rd "App Store" type of place might be
>> > tricky to arrange.
>> >
>> > I keep meaning to add his script to the wiki-page;
>> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Install/Linux
>> > if that hasn't been done already and i hope it gets added to the
>> relevant
>> > page on the official website too - preferably as both a downloadable
>> file
>> > and as just plain text on the page itself.
>> >
>> > I'm fairly sure ZenWiz would be happy with that but it would be nice to
>> > know that we can do that and use the Creative Commons CC-by-SA or
>> similar
>> > license (such as LGPL or MPL) so that people can modify and re-release
>> in
>> > other places as well as just using it.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Wrt the 3 "package managers" you named;  The Software Centre, Synaptic
>> and
>> > "apt-get" - Yes they are 3 ways of doing the same thing.  Each has it's
>> own
>> > advantages.  The 2 Gui ways are easier for point&click users.  The
>> Software
>> > Centre is good for installing entire programs that consist of many
>> parts;
>> > such as LibreOffice, MegaGlest, Wesnoth and so on.  Synaptic and
>> "apt-get"
>> > are better for adding individual add-ons, extra libraries for extra
>> > functionality, codecs, specific fonts, command-line tools.  Apt-get has
>> > commands to clean and remove temp files created when downloading and
>> > installing things.
>> >
>> > Synaptic and "The Software Centre" actually use "apt-get" to do a lot of
>> > their work but they 'just' put a prettier face on it to make it easier
>> for
>> > point&click users.  Ok, they often do a lot more than that but it's the
>> > easiest way of thinking about it.
>> >
>> > So i might use The Software Centre to install LibreOffice, a camera and
>> > Gimp - then turn to Synaptic to add extra features and fonts - and then
>> use
>> > "apt-get" to clear all the cruft away.  I could probably do the whole
>> job
>> > from any 1 of them but this way i have used each package-manager for
>> what
>> > it does best.
>> >
>> > Regards from
>> > Tom :)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11 October 2015 at 14:11, Virgil Arrington 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Setting aside the discussion that followed, I would like to thank
>> Andreas
>> > > for his explanation of installing Debian packages from the command
>> line.
>> > > I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now, and I've learned how to
>> use
>> > > the Software Center and Synaptic as well as the "sudo apt-get..."
>> commands,
>> > > which I sense are just three different ways of doing the same thing.
>> Beyond
>> > > that, however, I've never learned how to install a Debian package
>> without
>> > > using the PPAs.
>> > >
>> > > Thank you Andreas for this explanation. You've expanded my knowledge
>> of
>> > > Linux. And after upgrading my Windows partition from 7 to 10 with
>> less than
>> > > satisfactory results, my reliance upon Linux is only that much
>> greater.
>> > >
>> > > Virgil
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 10/09/2015 05:58 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> And this is the non-PPA way of installing an archive of Debian
>> packages
>> > >> downloaded from libreoffice.org as described and supported on all
>> > >> OpenOffice support forums since the days of OpenOffice2:
>> > >>
>> > >>> cd ~/Downloads
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> If you downloaded the md5 checksum file as well, you can check the
>> > >> 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[toki]

On 11/10/15 21:24, Virgil Arrington wrote:

> having learned the old Wordstar Ctrl-key combinations and PC-Write's function 
> key combinations.

I'd love to be able to use the Wordstar Command Set, when editing
documents with LibreOffice, as would most users that are blind.

Ideally, every function that is currently done using mouse clicks, or
dragging the mouse, could be done from the keyboard alone.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] pptx files can't be opened when created with Impress 5.0.x

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I mostly just agree with Tim Lloyd but with more detail and alternatives.


1.  Always avoid the 2007-2013 Microsoft XML format!!!

It's not just one format, for a start!  It's so inconsistently implemented
in each version of MS Office that they call each version a new
"transitional" format.  They just can't seem to quite implement their own
format properly or even consistently.  It's highly likely that you'd have
the same problem if you'd created the Pptx in, say MS Office 2007 and then
tried to open it in MS Office 2013.

By stunning coincidence that means people often have to buy a different
version of MS Office in order to be able to work together with other people
they know.  Possibly one of the few moves at the end of Steve Bullmer's
reign that seemed to help keep their profits up but all by accident of
course.

The older MS format (2003/Xp and earlier) "ppt" (without the X for XML) is
MUCH more reliable and much more consistently applied across their own
products and can also be handled better by almost all non-Microsoft
products.

Note that it was just after pretty much all other relevant software could
easily handle the older Microsoft format that MS suddenly produced this
newer format, allegedly releasing it "to improve interoperability" but
actually appearing to have quite the opposite effect.

So even if you are using a version of MS Office it's well worth doing
File - "Save As ..."
and using the older MS format.


2.  Have all the versions of LibreOffice been in the "Fresh" branch?
Please try the latest in the "Still" branch.  The way branches work is that
preceding versions of the same branch are unlikely to have fixed the
problem.  It's only by going to an earlier branch that you get in front of
a regression but really this is back-to-front thinking and generally things
tend to get a lot better rather than worse, despite what you may have read
here recently!  If you think of the 3rd digit as a "Service Pack" number
you get a clearer idea of what's going on.  The "Still" branch has a higher
"Sp" so it's fixed more of it's teething problems.


3.  Do you really need to do a PowerPoint presentation?  You can 'install'
LibreOffice on a usb-stick and then use it on almost any Windows machine.
I'm not sure how well it works as i know some places now lock-down their
usb-ports so that people can't copying anything.
http://www.winpenpack.com/en/download.php?list.37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinPenPack

http://alternativeto.net/software/winpenpack/

https://www.libreoffice.org/download/portable-versions/


4.  Also there are much better programs for writing presentations.
Powerpoint is one of the worst.  The only advantage with Impress or
Powerpoint is that they are part of the office suite and it may be easier
to use things created in other programs/elements/apps/modules of the suite
within your presentation.  Also it's what 'everyone' seems to be using.

Anyway good luck and regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 23:12, Tim Lloyd  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> this looks like your problem, can you confirm pls?
>
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59323
>
> If this is the same it is worth adding your comments.
>
> As a workaround though, is it possible to save the file as .ppt?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> On 12/10/15 08:07, avamk wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've noticed that .pptx files  (I selected the Microsoft PowerPoint
>> 2007-2013 XML format) I created and saved with LibreOffice Impress 5.0.x
>> (I
>> tried both 5.0.2 the version before it) do not open correctly in Microsoft
>> Office 2010. When opening, PowerPoint tells me that the file is corrupted,
>> and clicking the Repair button either fails or results in a file with many
>> elements missing or messed up. This happens for LibreOffice Impress
>> created
>> .pptx files from Linux, Mac, and Windows versions of LibreOffice.
>>
>> I can provide more detail or an example file, but I just wanted to ask
>> first
>> if this is a known problem and is being fixed??? This is a big show
>> stopping
>> bug for me Thanks for your help!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/pptx-files-can-t-be-opened-when-created-with-Impress-5-0-x-tp4162940.html
>> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[jorge]

Hi Tom and all:

Thanks for the explanation about Software Center, Synaptic and Apt-get
command.

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez


El dom, 11-10-2015 a las 15:40 +0100, Tom Davies escribió:
> Hi :)
> +1
> Although we often disagree with each other and have heated arguments at
> times i have a lot of respect for the technical support Andreas gives and
> also for his links to or suggestions of other places that give good
> support.
> 
> He is a classic example of someone who works in both communities.  Not all
> have the same attitude (of course) but his way has a lot of energy about
> it, which is not always easy to be comfortable with, but his way does seem
> to be an effective driving force at times.
> 
> 
> I really like Zen-Wiz's script that does the same job as Andreas'
> command-line.  Instead of having to type in the same commands each time you
> would just double-click on the script file.  If the script is not already
> in the "Extensions" library;
> https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/templates-and-extensions/
> then i hope he is is generous enough to add it in.  It is not really an
> Extension as such but having a 3rd "App Store" type of place might be
> tricky to arrange.
> 
> I keep meaning to add his script to the wiki-page;
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Install/Linux
> if that hasn't been done already and i hope it gets added to the relevant
> page on the official website too - preferably as both a downloadable file
> and as just plain text on the page itself.
> 
> I'm fairly sure ZenWiz would be happy with that but it would be nice to
> know that we can do that and use the Creative Commons CC-by-SA or similar
> license (such as LGPL or MPL) so that people can modify and re-release in
> other places as well as just using it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrt the 3 "package managers" you named;  The Software Centre, Synaptic and
> "apt-get" - Yes they are 3 ways of doing the same thing.  Each has it's own
> advantages.  The 2 Gui ways are easier for point&click users.  The Software
> Centre is good for installing entire programs that consist of many parts;
> such as LibreOffice, MegaGlest, Wesnoth and so on.  Synaptic and "apt-get"
> are better for adding individual add-ons, extra libraries for extra
> functionality, codecs, specific fonts, command-line tools.  Apt-get has
> commands to clean and remove temp files created when downloading and
> installing things.
> 
> Synaptic and "The Software Centre" actually use "apt-get" to do a lot of
> their work but they 'just' put a prettier face on it to make it easier for
> point&click users.  Ok, they often do a lot more than that but it's the
> easiest way of thinking about it.
> 
> So i might use The Software Centre to install LibreOffice, a camera and
> Gimp - then turn to Synaptic to add extra features and fonts - and then use
> "apt-get" to clear all the cruft away.  I could probably do the whole job
> from any 1 of them but this way i have used each package-manager for what
> it does best.
> 
> Regards from
> Tom :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11 October 2015 at 14:11, Virgil Arrington  wrote:
> 
> > Setting aside the discussion that followed, I would like to thank Andreas
> > for his explanation of installing Debian packages from the command line.
> > I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now, and I've learned how to use
> > the Software Center and Synaptic as well as the "sudo apt-get..." commands,
> > which I sense are just three different ways of doing the same thing. Beyond
> > that, however, I've never learned how to install a Debian package without
> > using the PPAs.
> >
> > Thank you Andreas for this explanation. You've expanded my knowledge of
> > Linux. And after upgrading my Windows partition from 7 to 10 with less than
> > satisfactory results, my reliance upon Linux is only that much greater.
> >
> > Virgil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/09/2015 05:58 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
> >
> >> And this is the non-PPA way of installing an archive of Debian packages
> >> downloaded from libreoffice.org as described and supported on all
> >> OpenOffice support forums since the days of OpenOffice2:
> >>
> >>> cd ~/Downloads
> >>>
> >>
> >> If you downloaded the md5 checksum file as well, you can check the
> >> integrity of your downloaded archive:
> >>
> >> md5sum --check 
> >>>
> >> Extract the downloaded archive:
> >>
> >> tar -xvzf downloaded_package.tar.gz
> >>>
> >> or use your graphical file manager to unpack the archive. I don't know
> >> any way to do the following with a graphical tool:
> >>
> >> go to the extracted directory of debian packages which depends on the
> >> langauge version. In case of en-US:
> >>
> >> cd en-US/DEBS
> >>>
> >> Install the packages as root:
> >>
> >> sudo dpkg -i *.deb
> >>>
> >>
> >> This installs/updates the whole suite to /opt and you can start the
> >> fully featured program by calling the executable file
> >> /opt/libreofficeX.Y/program/soffice
> >>
> >> For any "desktop integration" you can install an ad

Re: [libreoffice-users] pptx files can't be opened when created with Impress 5.0.x

[Tim Lloyd]

Hi,

this looks like your problem, can you confirm pls?

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59323

If this is the same it is worth adding your comments.

As a workaround though, is it possible to save the file as .ppt?

Cheers

On 12/10/15 08:07, avamk wrote:

Hello,

I've noticed that .pptx files  (I selected the Microsoft PowerPoint
2007-2013 XML format) I created and saved with LibreOffice Impress 5.0.x (I
tried both 5.0.2 the version before it) do not open correctly in Microsoft
Office 2010. When opening, PowerPoint tells me that the file is corrupted,
and clicking the Repair button either fails or results in a file with many
elements missing or messed up. This happens for LibreOffice Impress created
.pptx files from Linux, Mac, and Windows versions of LibreOffice.

I can provide more detail or an example file, but I just wanted to ask first
if this is a known problem and is being fixed??? This is a big show stopping
bug for me Thanks for your help!



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Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I agree except there are at least 4 approaches that i know of.  My post
avoided going down the LTS approach on the grounds that it had been
rejected out of hand already, even though it works well for some.

The Redhat approach is to have 2 distinctly different distros with separate
names and branding.  One tests ultra-new technologies often before any
other distros.  The other, their flagship one called "Redhat", stays set
for years before getting upgraded.  There is a big fuss and much publicity
in the run-up to the upgrade.

Then there's the Debian style, which is roughly what we use.  The new
branch has all the exciting experimental stuff in it.  Once it's been out
in the wild on real-world machines and on enough bare-metal to shake a
stick at and received plenty of patches and updates the community
eventually decides that in a year or so it can be considered what they call
"Stable branch".  Of course when their branch is very fresh and new it is
also stable in the developers way of thinking because it's been tested in
all the ways they reasonably can and is not crashing or anything like that
- so perhaps "Stable" is a bit misleading but it makes intuitive sense to
users so Debian goes with it.  Then they have a new "Development branch"
which gets used by pretty much everyone anyway with pretty much all of them
appreciating the opportunity to work with something more advanced than the
standard.  It's special and a bit edgy so they feel privileged to use it
and it makes them feel like they are possibly more geeky than they really
are.  The 'older' branch, now called "Stable" branch continues to get
security updates and such.

SliTaZ does much the same except they call their newer branch their
"cooking branch" but they are French so it suits them well.  Beats mucking
around with horses, right?

These are all not-quite the same as LTS.  Everything for the LTS release
has to conform to a MUCH stricter set of rules.  So that is all versions of
all packages and modules have to be up to a certain standard otherwise they
risk being left out entirely, perhaps in favour of a competitor.  Evolution
couldn't consistently make the standard nor meet any deadlines so for a
long while it consistently got in as an older version but eventually got
ditched in favour of Thunderbird and, i think, Lightning.  Even though
Evolution would be more ideal as it's more like a drop-in replacement for
Outlook (hence why it was given so many chances) but it just became
untenable to continue having it as the default.

The LTS does tend to have new features and some extra "wow" factor(s) above
and beyond what could be expected for a normal release.  This draws
attention from the press and others who eagerly speculate and anticipate
what may or may not be in it.  Discussions rage.  But those new features
have often been well and truly tested well in advance but in something
approaching secrecy so that only a few people really know what is going to
be in it.

So with the LTS release it's not just about it getting longer term support
after it's been released.  That is, of course, crucial but it's not the
main thing.  The main thing is that it's substantially better quality on
it's release date than any other release is on their release date - even
the subsequent next couple of releases.  So people often choose the LTS
even after there have been a few more recent releases = because they know
they get better quality.

To me that is substantially better than just using it because it's old!!
It's a huge 'seasonal' boost to their marketing - much the same speculation
and anticipation as before the release of a new iPhone!!

We don't get anything like that level of excitement before the release of a
new branch.  We get a bit of fresh interest at each new branch's release
but less and less each time.  Maybe it might be possible to learn something
from people who make it to the next plateau up - or perhaps we are more
like Microsoft in being unable to admit that others may have a point.  But
perhaps i am wrong and Microsoft, Apple, Google and Ubuntu are really
clueless morons that we have nothing to learn from.


Thanks for the run-down on rolling releases.  I knew there had to be
something but i had no idea what.  I'd also guessed that people wouldn't
really run into those problems for a couple of years.  Right now people are
having the usual teething problems of adapting to a new layout and
presumably the typical problems of using an MS product before "Service Pack
1" - and without the confidence of knowing roughly when the equivalent
might be.

Thanks and regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 21:42, Jay Lozier  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/11/2015 03:42 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>
>> Hi :)
>> "Thanks for the flowers"/approval which i've snipped.  It's a shock to
>> finally agree on something! :))
>>
>> The LTS approach was a new way of dealing with an old problem.  The old
>> and
>> still current problem is that projects are pulled in 2 opposi

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Virgil Arrington]

On 10/11/2015 03:42 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Heck, many places grumble about
'having to' upgrade from Xp because it 'only' lasted 10 years!  Some
organisations happily pay millions per year extra purely in order to be
able to stay with the same old Xp and STILL haven't developed a strategy
for upgrading.


XP was the last version of Windows I actually liked. I was ticked when 
MS told me they would no longer support it, and that was the catalyst 
that finally made me commit to Linux. Windows 10 has only reinforced my 
decision to go with Ubuntu.


Virgil

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Virgil Arrington]

On 10/11/2015 02:37 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
+1 to both points.

The UI issue is cropping up more often but many people, get over their
initial dislike and prefer the return to sanity because it makes it easier
to find things and easier to learn new stuff.


UI changes frustrate me to no end. I tend to commit to learning a given 
piece of software so that its commands become second nature. Back in the 
days of DOS, I was a PC-Write wizard, having learned the old Wordstar 
Ctrl-key combinations and PC-Write's function key combinations. 
Certainly, the multi-tasking GUI's of Windows and Linux simply do more 
things, but I've never found any program with which I could match my 
productivity with PC-Write (in terms of just getting things done).


One frustration I've noticed recently is with LO's "Sidebar." In the 
past, I had my paragraph styles locked in a Sidebar. Now, the Styles box 
shares the Sidebar with the Properties, Gallery, and Navigator boxes, 
and when I open a new file, it defaults to the Properties box (a la 
AOO), when I *want* the Styles box. So, with every document, I now have 
to click on the Styles icon in the Sidebar. I've looked everywhere to 
find a way to make "Styles" the default Sidebar box, but with no luck. 
To, me this was a totally unnecessary UI "improvement."


If I could echo Andreas with a message to the developers. Please stop 
making changes just to make changes. Every UI change forces the user to 
change the way s/he uses the program, and those changes affect our 
personal performance and productivity, at least until we learn the new 
system. Yes, once the new UI is learned, it, too, becomes second nature, 
but I've rarely found a new UI to improve performance so much as to 
justify its replacement of the older way of working.


Virgil

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[libreoffice-users] pptx files can't be opened when created with Impress 5.0.x

[avamk]

Hello,

I've noticed that .pptx files  (I selected the Microsoft PowerPoint
2007-2013 XML format) I created and saved with LibreOffice Impress 5.0.x (I
tried both 5.0.2 the version before it) do not open correctly in Microsoft
Office 2010. When opening, PowerPoint tells me that the file is corrupted,
and clicking the Repair button either fails or results in a file with many
elements missing or messed up. This happens for LibreOffice Impress created
.pptx files from Linux, Mac, and Windows versions of LibreOffice.

I can provide more detail or an example file, but I just wanted to ask first
if this is a known problem and is being fixed??? This is a big show stopping
bug for me Thanks for your help!



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/11/2015 03:42 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
"Thanks for the flowers"/approval which i've snipped.  It's a shock to
finally agree on something! :))

The LTS approach was a new way of dealing with an old problem.  The old and
still current problem is that projects are pulled in 2 opposing
directions;
1.  exciting and new developments, fashion, bling
2.  stay with something familiar and see it mature.  NOT having to
constantly work at it.

That is probably why Redhat and Debian (and family) and many others (even
[shudders] Microsoft and to a lesser extent Apple) provide a version that
basically stays the same for years.  Heck, many places grumble about
'having to' upgrade from Xp because it 'only' lasted 10 years!  Some
organisations happily pay millions per year extra purely in order to be
able to stay with the same old Xp and STILL haven't developed a strategy
for upgrading.

Arch and others attempt to deal with the problem by doing rolling releases
- which brings it's own set of problems - as Windows 10 users and Microsoft
will doubtless be learning afresh over the next couple of years.  Arch has
already long ago grokked this so MS could learn valuable lessons from them
but i think we all know they can't learn wisdom from outside, unless they
really have changed.
Both approaches have problems with either needing to maintain security 
releases for old versions (LTS) or with system stability/breakage 
(Rolling). The first appears safe because the system is relatively 
stable but older OSes may not support easily newer technologies. This 
can be problematic as the OS ages. Also, security releases and bug fixes 
must be maintained over several version of a library. Rolling releases 
can be have stability issues with being too close to the bleeding edge 
but they are likely to support the latest technologies. Also, there are 
fewer library versions to be maintained.


Having used both, I recommend LTS releases for most users knowing every 
x years their system must be upgraded to the current supported release.


My fear with W10 is MS does not truly understand the nature of a rolling 
release and their users are not at all familiar with the quirks of a 
rolling release. I have found one needs to pay closer attention to 
update issues as they occur with a rolling release and it helps to have 
a good grasp of how a computer works. Windows users are not used to more 
active update management and often have a very poor understanding of how 
a computer works. IMHO, the potential for a disaster about 6 - 12 months 
from initial release is very high with W10.




So in answer to your question to Alex; "Yes".  Many places would appreciate
updates rather than to keep demanding their Sys. Admins have to keep
re-installing new upgrades.

It'd also be great if there were some sort of "Super Still" branch, like
Debian, or Redhat (and many others) that kept getting updates for 3-4
years.  So that organisations could install the Super Still branch on new
systems in complete confidence that they wouldn't need to touch the system
again for a couple years.


There are other cases where people don't have broadband for downloading
full upgrades but could do with having a system they could rely on for
years.  European city-dwellers might not quite realise what it's like
without broadband.

I think it's interesting that the super-rich share a problem in common with
the desperately isolated and cut-off.  One which is largely addressed by
almost all of Gnu&Linux but not by LibreOffice.
Regards from
Tom :)






Also you might add that TDF does not offer LTS because TDF is not a
business and therefore has no incentive in a LTS version which only makes
sense if you monetize it. The poster example of this is Canonical and
Ubuntu LTS.  Canonical makes money on LTS and is only able to do so because
the LTS itself is a profitable business.  Otherwise you would not even hear
of it. Businesses looking for something very similar to a LTS version of
LibreOffice can contact our certified developers and their companies though.

Best,

Charles.






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Re: [libreoffice-users] libreoffice draw very often bad allocation error

[anne-ology]

   It may be a bug in this version of LO;
  but I would guess it's yet another fault with MsFt
 since this error happens fairly often; I usually notice it when
searching on-line for whatever.

   I figure it's time to shut down the machine; first clearing the
cache, et.al. ... then starting up at a later time  ;-)



From: yahoo-pier_andreit 
Date: Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:46 AM
Subject: [libreoffice-users] libreoffice draw very often bad allocation
error
To: users@global.libreoffice.org


running in windows 7 the last libreoffice and using draw mainly when a file
is opened and I open a new file a "bad allocation error" appear, and when I
click ok libreoffice crash.
how to solve this problem??
manythanks, ciao, pier  :-)

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
"Thanks for the flowers"/approval which i've snipped.  It's a shock to
finally agree on something! :))

The LTS approach was a new way of dealing with an old problem.  The old and
still current problem is that projects are pulled in 2 opposing
directions;
1.  exciting and new developments, fashion, bling
2.  stay with something familiar and see it mature.  NOT having to
constantly work at it.

That is probably why Redhat and Debian (and family) and many others (even
[shudders] Microsoft and to a lesser extent Apple) provide a version that
basically stays the same for years.  Heck, many places grumble about
'having to' upgrade from Xp because it 'only' lasted 10 years!  Some
organisations happily pay millions per year extra purely in order to be
able to stay with the same old Xp and STILL haven't developed a strategy
for upgrading.

Arch and others attempt to deal with the problem by doing rolling releases
- which brings it's own set of problems - as Windows 10 users and Microsoft
will doubtless be learning afresh over the next couple of years.  Arch has
already long ago grokked this so MS could learn valuable lessons from them
but i think we all know they can't learn wisdom from outside, unless they
really have changed.


So in answer to your question to Alex; "Yes".  Many places would appreciate
updates rather than to keep demanding their Sys. Admins have to keep
re-installing new upgrades.

It'd also be great if there were some sort of "Super Still" branch, like
Debian, or Redhat (and many others) that kept getting updates for 3-4
years.  So that organisations could install the Super Still branch on new
systems in complete confidence that they wouldn't need to touch the system
again for a couple years.


There are other cases where people don't have broadband for downloading
full upgrades but could do with having a system they could rely on for
years.  European city-dwellers might not quite realise what it's like
without broadband.

I think it's interesting that the super-rich share a problem in common with
the desperately isolated and cut-off.  One which is largely addressed by
almost all of Gnu&Linux but not by LibreOffice.
Regards from
Tom :)





>
> Also you might add that TDF does not offer LTS because TDF is not a
> business and therefore has no incentive in a LTS version which only makes
> sense if you monetize it. The poster example of this is Canonical and
> Ubuntu LTS.  Canonical makes money on LTS and is only able to do so because
> the LTS itself is a profitable business.  Otherwise you would not even hear
> of it. Businesses looking for something very similar to a LTS version of
> LibreOffice can contact our certified developers and their companies though.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>
> 
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
The original question was about getting the newer versions installed.
Ubuntu, especially their LTSes, tends to have quite old versions.

Many people take a while to realise they are fine to keep using older
versions, even ones that are no longer officially supported.  Others enjoy
being on the bleeding edge or as close as they can get, possibly for the
thrill of it but maybe because it can be so dangerous with proprietary
software.

There are PPAs for both branches (i believe so anyway there were last time
i looked) and those can be used for Ubuntu, Mint and presumably many other
distros in the Debian family.  It's also possible to install the "upstream"
version directly from the website and both Andreas and ZenWiz gave us good
instructions for doing that. :)  Then the whole thread took a left turn and
got (imo) very exciting and interesting :)
Regards from
Tom :)




On 11 October 2015 at 17:50, Jay Lozier  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Looking at the subject line I am confused. Ubuntu ships with a version of
> LO in each release and LO is in the official Ubuntu repositories. So what
> was the actual question, which was never clear to me. The only question
> that made any sense was how to install a Ubuntu ppa for the latest stable
> LO release but that did seemed to be the question. Adding a ppa is an easy
> process.
>
> AFAIK most Linux desktop distros ship with LO as the office package with a
> few shipping with Calligra. In either case the other is often in the
> distro's repository and is usually trivial to install using the distro's
> package management tools.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On 10/11/2015 12:25 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>
>> Le 11 octobre 2015 17:28:30 GMT+02:00, Tom Davies  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> Hi :)
>>> Many Gnu&Linux distros offer their own somewhat independent support
>>> through
>>> their own forums, mailing lists and bug-report systems.
>>>
>>> That type of support is not available to Windows users and may not be
>>> available to Mac people.
>>>
>>>
>>> However it is true that there are many other support systems available
>>> and
>>> those are (hopefully) available for all OSes.  There may be local
>>> support
>>> such as a shop or relative who understands one OS better than others.
>>>
>>> All support from TDF is available to anyone regardless of which OS so
>>> that
>>> give Gnu&Linuxs users yet another set of places to get support from.
>>> It's
>>> usually helpful if we know which OS or at least platform in order to be
>>> able to give more specific and relevant support rather than talking in
>>> general terms.  However this seldom includes much help for those who
>>> are
>>> stuck on older versions.
>>>
>>> Also there are professional support services which can be paid for.
>>> Again
>>> these services can often provide support for a variety of platforms and
>>> OSes.  This often includes tier 3 (or level 3) support so that might
>>> well
>>> include support for older versions.
>>>
>> +1 good description.
>>
>>
>>> So one of the few places that doesn't support the notion of a "Long
>>> Term
>>> Support" type release is TDF itself!  TDF say it cant be done.  Other
>>> places just get on with it and do it.
>>>
>>
>> Also you might add that TDF does not offer LTS because TDF is not a
>> business and therefore has no incentive in a LTS version which only makes
>> sense if you monetize it. The poster example of this is Canonical and
>> Ubuntu LTS.  Canonical makes money on LTS and is only able to do so because
>> the LTS itself is a profitable business.  Otherwise you would not even hear
>> of it. Businesses looking for something very similar to a LTS version of
>> LibreOffice can contact our certified developers and their companies though.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Charles.
>>
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 October 2015 at 13:15, Charles-H. Schulz <
>>> charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 11 octobre 2015 11:44:33 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood <
 alex.thurg...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
>
> Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
> discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less
> justified
> or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for
>
 change's
>>>
 sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development.
>
 The
>>>
 project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with
>
 regard
>>>
 to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the
>
 "bazaar"
>>>
 mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
> dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the
>
 direction
>>>
 code development should take. This has positive and negative effects
>
 -
>>>
 the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the
>
 thing
>>>
 they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
> co

Re: [libreoffice-users] Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Joe Conner]

Thanks Tom. We try.
Blessings, Joe Conner, Poulsbo, WA USA

On 10/09/2015 06:05 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
ZenWiz!!  Superb answer!! :)))

I found this link about how to start writing scripts;
https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/284789-writing-a-simple-bash-script-
There are plenty of others but this one got straight to the point.  Here's
some that are even more long-winded than me!
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting
https://wiki.debian.org/BashScripting
Ok, maybe not as long-winded as me (and more of it that's useful) but still
tooo long.

Joe i agree with your comment.  The only proviso is that there are many
different ways of learning.  Also noobs lose their noobish-edges very
quickly, especially with something like Gnu&Linux and even without trying.

I've enjoyed this thread so far! :)  Thanks all :)
Regards to all from
Tom :)



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Joshua 24:15  "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1 to both points.

The UI issue is cropping up more often but many people, get over their
initial dislike and prefer the return to sanity because it makes it easier
to find things and easier to learn new stuff.

The formats issue is mostly one of perception.  People still believe the MS
formats have longer longevity despite the fact they, almost daily, find
problems sharing such files with each other.


Just as Italo said and Jay agreed i've never had problems with any version
of LO myself (or with clients) but i know there have been many over the
years and even a couple of theoretical security issues.  However i (well,
my clients) run into problems with MS Office quite often, despite seldom
actually using it myself.  I originally joined this mailing list to learn
about current problems and work-arounds in order to be ready for client's
questions.  I've always been over-prepared as a result = so thanks to all
of you for that :))
Regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 18:01, Jay Lozier  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/11/2015 12:48 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/15 11:44, Alex Thurgood wrote:
>>
>> I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
>>> probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
>>> OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
>>> one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
>>> else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
>>> of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
>>> and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
>>> share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).
>>>
>> During the last four years I have helped to migrate to LibreOffice
>> several Italian organizations - especially public administrations - for
>> a total of over 30,000 PCs. Today, I am helping the Italian Defense to
>> migrate to LibreOffice 150,000 PCs.
>>
>> I might be incredibly lucky, but I have never experienced significant
>> stability issues with LibreOffice, since version 3.5. Of course, when I
>> say "I have never experienced" I mean that none of the organizations I
>> have helped has experienced significant stability issues. Again, we
>> might be extremely lucky here in Italy.
>>
>> Hi Italo,
>
> The only consistent complaints I hear about LO is that the UI is different
> from various MSO office versions and concerns about handling MSO file
> formats. The first is complaint was often due to user unwillingness to
> learn anything new - not an uncommon problem. This is not an LO specific
> issue. The second issue, to me, is more legitimate. I have seen many
> proprietary document formats for office documents come and go over the last
> 30 years. I can appreciate the concern about being able to open documents
> in a non-native package in the future.
>
> I have not heard of any (my very limited sample) stability issues that
> could be attributed to LO. The stability issues I was seeing were Windows
> issues seen in many packages.
>
>
> I suspect your stability experience is the norm, LO is very stable. If
> there are issues they are often user unwillingness to change or system
> problems outside of LO.
>
> Jay
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
No need to "beat yourself up over it".  Your initial post made enough sense
that people were able to run with it.  Effectively it was little more than
a typo and under a stress that none of us enjoy but a few have had to
endure = so i think we can appreciate it being such a tiny and
understandable inaccuracy.

So, both your posts are very much appreciated - as always.
Many regards from
Tom :)




On 11 October 2015 at 16:48, Andreas Säger  wrote:

> Andreas Säger wrote
> > If you don't want any desktop integration because you want to use the new
> > suite as a secondary suite, rename/remove the desktop-ingegration.deb
> file
> > _before_ running dpkg and everything *should* be fine IMHO.
>
> Oh, that was sloppy posting because renaming won't prevent that file from
> being installed together with the other *.deb files (unless you renamed the
> deb extension). This _may_ fail if there is some other suite installed.
>
> 1) Do nothing and run sudo dpkg -i *.deb if there is no other suite owning
> /usr/bin/soffice
>
> 2) Move the desktop-integration.deb to the trash bin if you don't want the
> desktop integration for this office suite.
>
> 3) If you want desktop integration for the newly installed suite AND there
> is an /usr/bin/soffice file from another suite, then you should indeed make
> a subdirectory and move that particular deb file before running sudo dpkg
> -i
> *.deb in the DEBS directory without additional switch. This should run
> without error. And then run sudo dpkg -i --force-overwrite *.deb in that
> subdirectory in order to make this office suite the primary one overwriting
> any /usr/bin/soffice. The overwrite switch applies only to this particular
> package with this particular problem when there is another suite owning
> /usr/bin/soffice.
>
> The desktop-integration*.deb should reside in a separate subdirectory but
> the LO guys always know better. Simply applying the overwrite switch to all
> the *.deb packages may resolve unforeseen dependencies by overwriting
> essential files of alternative office suites which would damage these
> installations.
>
> Thank you for your attention.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Installing-Libreoffice-in-Ubuntu-tp4162664p4162910.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Andreas Säger]

Andreas Säger wrote
> If you don't want any desktop integration because you want to use the new
> suite as a secondary suite, rename/remove the desktop-ingegration.deb file
> _before_ running dpkg and everything *should* be fine IMHO.

Oh, that was sloppy posting because renaming won't prevent that file from
being installed together with the other *.deb files (unless you renamed the
deb extension). This _may_ fail if there is some other suite installed.

1) Do nothing and run sudo dpkg -i *.deb if there is no other suite owning
/usr/bin/soffice

2) Move the desktop-integration.deb to the trash bin if you don't want the
desktop integration for this office suite.

3) If you want desktop integration for the newly installed suite AND there
is an /usr/bin/soffice file from another suite, then you should indeed make
a subdirectory and move that particular deb file before running sudo dpkg -i
*.deb in the DEBS directory without additional switch. This should run
without error. And then run sudo dpkg -i --force-overwrite *.deb in that
subdirectory in order to make this office suite the primary one overwriting
any /usr/bin/soffice. The overwrite switch applies only to this particular
package with this particular problem when there is another suite owning
/usr/bin/soffice.

The desktop-integration*.deb should reside in a separate subdirectory but
the LO guys always know better. Simply applying the overwrite switch to all
the *.deb packages may resolve unforeseen dependencies by overwriting
essential files of alternative office suites which would damage these
installations.

Thank you for your attention.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Jay Lozier]

On 10/11/2015 12:48 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote:

On 11/10/15 11:44, Alex Thurgood wrote:


I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).

During the last four years I have helped to migrate to LibreOffice
several Italian organizations - especially public administrations - for
a total of over 30,000 PCs. Today, I am helping the Italian Defense to
migrate to LibreOffice 150,000 PCs.

I might be incredibly lucky, but I have never experienced significant
stability issues with LibreOffice, since version 3.5. Of course, when I
say "I have never experienced" I mean that none of the organizations I
have helped has experienced significant stability issues. Again, we
might be extremely lucky here in Italy.


Hi Italo,

The only consistent complaints I hear about LO is that the UI is 
different from various MSO office versions and concerns about handling 
MSO file formats. The first is complaint was often due to user 
unwillingness to learn anything new - not an uncommon problem. This is 
not an LO specific issue. The second issue, to me, is more legitimate. I 
have seen many proprietary document formats for office documents come 
and go over the last 30 years. I can appreciate the concern about being 
able to open documents in a non-native package in the future.


I have not heard of any (my very limited sample) stability issues that 
could be attributed to LO. The stability issues I was seeing were 
Windows issues seen in many packages.



I suspect your stability experience is the norm, LO is very stable. If 
there are issues they are often user unwillingness to change or system 
problems outside of LO.


Jay

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Jay Lozier]

Hi

Looking at the subject line I am confused. Ubuntu ships with a version 
of LO in each release and LO is in the official Ubuntu repositories. So 
what was the actual question, which was never clear to me. The only 
question that made any sense was how to install a Ubuntu ppa for the 
latest stable LO release but that did seemed to be the question. Adding 
a ppa is an easy process.


AFAIK most Linux desktop distros ship with LO as the office package with 
a few shipping with Calligra. In either case the other is often in the 
distro's repository and is usually trivial to install using the distro's 
package management tools.


Jay

On 10/11/2015 12:25 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

Le 11 octobre 2015 17:28:30 GMT+02:00, Tom Davies  a écrit :

Hi :)
Many Gnu&Linux distros offer their own somewhat independent support
through
their own forums, mailing lists and bug-report systems.

That type of support is not available to Windows users and may not be
available to Mac people.


However it is true that there are many other support systems available
and
those are (hopefully) available for all OSes.  There may be local
support
such as a shop or relative who understands one OS better than others.

All support from TDF is available to anyone regardless of which OS so
that
give Gnu&Linuxs users yet another set of places to get support from.
It's
usually helpful if we know which OS or at least platform in order to be
able to give more specific and relevant support rather than talking in
general terms.  However this seldom includes much help for those who
are
stuck on older versions.

Also there are professional support services which can be paid for.
Again
these services can often provide support for a variety of platforms and
OSes.  This often includes tier 3 (or level 3) support so that might
well
include support for older versions.

+1 good description.



So one of the few places that doesn't support the notion of a "Long
Term
Support" type release is TDF itself!  TDF say it cant be done.  Other
places just get on with it and do it.


Also you might add that TDF does not offer LTS because TDF is not a business 
and therefore has no incentive in a LTS version which only makes sense if you 
monetize it. The poster example of this is Canonical and Ubuntu LTS.  Canonical 
makes money on LTS and is only able to do so because the LTS itself is a 
profitable business.  Otherwise you would not even hear of it. Businesses 
looking for something very similar to a LTS version of LibreOffice can contact 
our certified developers and their companies though.

Best,

Charles.

Regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 13:15, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:


Le 11 octobre 2015 11:44:33 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood <
alex.thurg...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less
justified
or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for

change's

sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development.

The

project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with

regard

to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the

"bazaar"

mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the

direction

code development should take. This has positive and negative effects

-

the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the

thing

they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
change long standing behaviour to which users have become

accustomed.

Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
contributors out on those decisions.

I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then

finding

one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular

nature

of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it

all,

and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen

to

share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).

At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for

older

versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with
regard
to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are

stuck

playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs

or

behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases,

or

for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's

mention

in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Italo Vignoli]

On 11/10/15 11:44, Alex Thurgood wrote:

> I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
> probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
> one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
> else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
> of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
> and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
> share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).

During the last four years I have helped to migrate to LibreOffice
several Italian organizations - especially public administrations - for
a total of over 30,000 PCs. Today, I am helping the Italian Defense to
migrate to LibreOffice 150,000 PCs.

I might be incredibly lucky, but I have never experienced significant
stability issues with LibreOffice, since version 3.5. Of course, when I
say "I have never experienced" I mean that none of the organizations I
have helped has experienced significant stability issues. Again, we
might be extremely lucky here in Italy.

-- 
Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 11 octobre 2015 17:28:30 GMT+02:00, Tom Davies  a écrit :
>Hi :)
>Many Gnu&Linux distros offer their own somewhat independent support
>through
>their own forums, mailing lists and bug-report systems.
>
>That type of support is not available to Windows users and may not be
>available to Mac people.
>
>
>However it is true that there are many other support systems available
>and
>those are (hopefully) available for all OSes.  There may be local
>support
>such as a shop or relative who understands one OS better than others.
>
>All support from TDF is available to anyone regardless of which OS so
>that
>give Gnu&Linuxs users yet another set of places to get support from. 
>It's
>usually helpful if we know which OS or at least platform in order to be
>able to give more specific and relevant support rather than talking in
>general terms.  However this seldom includes much help for those who
>are
>stuck on older versions.
>
>Also there are professional support services which can be paid for. 
>Again
>these services can often provide support for a variety of platforms and
>OSes.  This often includes tier 3 (or level 3) support so that might
>well
>include support for older versions.

+1 good description.

>
>
>So one of the few places that doesn't support the notion of a "Long
>Term
>Support" type release is TDF itself!  TDF say it cant be done.  Other
>places just get on with it and do it.


Also you might add that TDF does not offer LTS because TDF is not a business 
and therefore has no incentive in a LTS version which only makes sense if you 
monetize it. The poster example of this is Canonical and Ubuntu LTS.  Canonical 
makes money on LTS and is only able to do so because the LTS itself is a 
profitable business.  Otherwise you would not even hear of it. Businesses 
looking for something very similar to a LTS version of LibreOffice can contact 
our certified developers and their companies though.

Best,

Charles. 
>
>Regards from
>Tom :)
>
>
>
>On 11 October 2015 at 13:15, Charles-H. Schulz <
>charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Le 11 octobre 2015 11:44:33 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood <
>> alex.thurg...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> >Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
>> >
>> >Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
>> >discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less
>> >justified
>> >or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for
>change's
>> >sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development.
>The
>> >project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with
>regard
>> >to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the
>"bazaar"
>> >mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
>> >dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the
>direction
>> >code development should take. This has positive and negative effects
>-
>> >the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the
>thing
>> >they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
>> >consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
>> >change long standing behaviour to which users have become
>accustomed.
>> >
>> >Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
>> >contributors out on those decisions.
>> >
>> >I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
>> >probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
>> >OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then
>finding
>> >one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
>> >else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular
>nature
>> >of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it
>all,
>> >and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen
>to
>> >share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).
>> >
>> >At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for
>older
>> >versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with
>> >regard
>> >to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are
>stuck
>> >playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs
>or
>> >behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases,
>or
>> >for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's
>mention
>> >in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
>> >illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
>> >non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea
>to
>> >make that change without providing a solution for all platforms.
>Video
>> >support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
>> >with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
>> >users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and
>> >their
>> >admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
>> >people switch to another product that offers the

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 11 octobre 2015 14:43:39 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood  
a écrit :
>Le 11/10/2015 14:15, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>
>
>Charles,
>
>> 
>> I do not know where you got that support and security updates are
>only available on Linux.  That is factually wrong and serious bullshit.
>Get your facts straight: support is the same for the three officially
>supported platforms: Windowslinux and OS X. Remember that many code
>contributors have customers too. 
>> 
>
>I would be interested in learning where longterm support for "older"
>versions of LibreOffice on OSX which involves security updates and bug
>fixes is generally available. It would certainly help me explain to
>people on bugzilla using older versions of LibreOffice on OSX why there
>is no hope of bug xyz being fixed unless they upgrade both their OS and
>install the latest version of LibreOffice.

Indeed if you speak of older versions (as in versions currently not availabe as 
one of our two branches) , the LibreOffice project itself has no support for 
this. Companies such as CIB or Collabora usually do on all platforms. 

Now I realize there may be frustrations involved by handling upgrades but you 
would still deploy upgrades anyway regardless of the software. Would automatic 
incremental updates do the trick for you?

>
>If I look here :
>
>https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/system-requirements/#Apple
>
>Either I can't read properly or else the information at that place is
>incorrect. As I was unable to find anywhere on the LibreOffice website
>that indicates that there is support available for "older" versions of
>LibreOffice on OSX < 10.8, then may I assume that my facts are indeed
>right after all ?

Your facts are wrong as you expect from LibreOffice what you don't expect from 
any other software, which is ad vitam support for free by the community. In 
short you expect "the butter, the money for the butter, the smile and thanks 
from the dairy merchant" all at the same time. 

So yes indeed, LibreOffice does not support all its versions... but then who 
does ?  Microsoft ?  Mozilla? Does AOO support the 3.3? Does it patch the 
3.2.1? No? How outrageous. :-)

Best,

Charles. 


>
>
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
>Problems?
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>deleted

Hello Alex, 
-- 
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[libreoffice-users] Voting in favour of, or agreeing with

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Some online 'meetings' use a simple "+1" to vote in favour of something.
Some people often use it in an informal way, as i do (i copied them).

Most of the ones i've seen (ie LibreOffice and TDF ones) have usually
talked through the issue until a mutually satisfactory proposal can be
posted or consensus reached.  So i've never noticed anyone posting a "-1"
or whatever is normally used to vote against.  I've seen people abstain but
that usually seems to be because they are busy and just didn't get around
to it (usually they had deputised someone to make their votes for them)
rather than out-right making a statement.

So it's 1 person = 1 vote = total support, although i kinda agree with
James' sentiment there.
Regards from
Tom :)


-- Forwarded message --
From: James Wilde 
Date: 11 October 2015 at 12:18
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu
To: Alex Thurgood 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org


+20

Alex Thurgood 
> 11 Oct 2015 11:44via Postbox <
> https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sumlink&utm_campaign=reach
> >
>
> Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
>
> Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
> discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less justified
> or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for change's
> sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development. The
> project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
> to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the "bazaar"
> mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
> dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the direction
> code development should take. This has positive and negative effects -
> the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the thing
> they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
> consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
> change long standing behaviour to which users have become accustomed.
>
> Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
> contributors out on those decisions.
>
> I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
> probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
> one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
> else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
> of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
> and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
> share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).
>
> At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
> versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with regard
> to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are stuck
> playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs or
> behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases, or
> for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's mention
> in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
> illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
> non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea to
> make that change without providing a solution for all platforms. Video
> support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
> with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
> users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and their
> admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
> people switch to another product that offers them greater longterm
> stability where such changes are less invasive or devastating to the
> day-to-day running of the organisation.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Italo Vignoli 
> 10 Oct 2015 23:36via Postbox <
> https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sumlink&utm_campaign=reach
> >
> Please avoid entering in a discussion with a well know enemy of
> LibreOffice. Andreas Saeger aka Villeroy has been spreading FUD about
> LibreOffice since forever. People happy with a dead and buggy software -
> aka Apache OpenOffice - should avoid commenting on LibreOffice mailing
> lists.
>
> Florian Reisinger 
> 10 Oct 2015 15:27via Postbox <
> https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sumlink&utm_campaign=reach
> >
> Would you be so kind as to tell us which aspects got worse?
>
> Andreas Säger 
> 10 Oct 2015 15:26via Postbox <
> https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sumlink&utm_campaign=reach
> >
>
> LO introduces far too many changes to the worse which is why I still
> prefer OpenOffice.
>
>
> Philip Jackson 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
As you've probably noticed this mailing list often pulls in at least 2,
often surprisingly opposite directions.

*  Technical Support
*  User Support

Often those who do an excellent job near the extremes of one find
themselves infuriated by those who work near the extreme of the other.


I tend to aim at "User Support" but i am painfully aware that i often fail
at this.  I aim to stand-up for individuals, especially new ones because
they often bring in new ways that might well succeed where current or old
strategies may have failed at some old problems.  Again i'm aware that i
often fail at this and that it's often even back-fired somewhat painfully.


So i like the community here on this list and i like it that this mailing
list's unique community sometimes has a different viewpoint than the other
mailing lists.  I've also been very impressed by people who came in here
thinking they knew nothing but then found their way into other teams, such
as Marketing, Design, Documentation, QA, List-Moderators or/and just ended
up helping people here.


TDF needs people who can't code to help in the many other things that need
to be done.  Even QA can usefully do with more non-coders and not just for
admin type roles.  Each of us could probably find some other team where we
could help TDF quite a bit with surprisingly little effort.

Also each of us could probably find a niche in one of the other teams where
we get a lot of reward and satisfaction - maybe even learn quite a bit in
the process.

Many people here already do so.  Some tried out a few different teams
before finding somewhere they felt most comfortable.  Some are still on
many other teams.  Some liaise between different projects, such as between
us and the Caligra Office Suite (a fork of KOffice).

Regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 15:40, Tom Davies  wrote:

> Hi :)
> +1
> Although we often disagree with each other and have heated arguments at
> times i have a lot of respect for the technical support Andreas gives and
> also for his links to or suggestions of other places that give good
> support.
>
> He is a classic example of someone who works in both communities.  Not all
> have the same attitude (of course) but his way has a lot of energy about
> it, which is not always easy to be comfortable with, but his way does seem
> to be an effective driving force at times.
>
>
> I really like Zen-Wiz's script that does the same job as Andreas'
> command-line.  Instead of having to type in the same commands each time you
> would just double-click on the script file.  If the script is not already
> in the "Extensions" library;
> https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/templates-and-extensions/
> then i hope he is is generous enough to add it in.  It is not really an
> Extension as such but having a 3rd "App Store" type of place might be
> tricky to arrange.
>
> I keep meaning to add his script to the wiki-page;
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Install/Linux
> if that hasn't been done already and i hope it gets added to the relevant
> page on the official website too - preferably as both a downloadable file
> and as just plain text on the page itself.
>
> I'm fairly sure ZenWiz would be happy with that but it would be nice to
> know that we can do that and use the Creative Commons CC-by-SA or similar
> license (such as LGPL or MPL) so that people can modify and re-release in
> other places as well as just using it.
>
>
>
>
> Wrt the 3 "package managers" you named;  The Software Centre, Synaptic and
> "apt-get" - Yes they are 3 ways of doing the same thing.  Each has it's own
> advantages.  The 2 Gui ways are easier for point&click users.  The Software
> Centre is good for installing entire programs that consist of many parts;
> such as LibreOffice, MegaGlest, Wesnoth and so on.  Synaptic and "apt-get"
> are better for adding individual add-ons, extra libraries for extra
> functionality, codecs, specific fonts, command-line tools.  Apt-get has
> commands to clean and remove temp files created when downloading and
> installing things.
>
> Synaptic and "The Software Centre" actually use "apt-get" to do a lot of
> their work but they 'just' put a prettier face on it to make it easier for
> point&click users.  Ok, they often do a lot more than that but it's the
> easiest way of thinking about it.
>
> So i might use The Software Centre to install LibreOffice, a camera and
> Gimp - then turn to Synaptic to add extra features and fonts - and then use
> "apt-get" to clear all the cruft away.  I could probably do the whole job
> from any 1 of them but this way i have used each package-manager for what
> it does best.
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
> On 11 October 2015 at 14:11, Virgil Arrington 
> wrote:
>
>> Setting aside the discussion that followed, I would like to thank Andreas
>> for his explanation of installing Debian packages from the command line.
>> I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now, and I've learned how to use
>> th

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi Cor :)

LibreOffice has many advantages.  One is the fast-paced development cycle.

As with all projects there are advantages and disadvantages.

One of the few disadvantages with LibreOffice is it's lack of an official
LTS.  Hopefully people who have a strong need for an LTS are able to find
some compromise or an alternative.  There are options out there!  One is to
use OpenOffice but, as mentioned by other people, that carries a whole raft
of other problems.

My personal preference is to give my clients the "Still" branch or leave
them with an older version.  I've never had any problems with any of the
older versions.  It seems that about 1/year there is some security issue
but none of my clients have had any problems even with versions that are
years old.  On my own machine i try to use the "Fresh" branch in order to
try to find problems with it but again i seldom seem to find anything to
grumble about.

For me LibreOffice is perfect.  For my clients "Still" branch is best.



However when i am forced to use OpenOffice i am fairly happy with that
too.

The only time i am really unhappy is when i have to go back and use
Microsoft Office.  Their UI changes too much in each release, it's too
heavy and slow, the resulting documents often need some tinkering to get
them up to standard, the format can't be used by other software or even
other versions of itself ... and the list of problems just goes on and on.
People who say they prefer it often ask me for advice on how to do even
quite simple things and i can usually show them but whatever their problem
the simplest answer is usually just to move away from MS Office!


For me the struggle is NOT us against OpenOffice (or KOffice, Caligra,
Gnome Office, Google-docs or others).  Each one has it's niche and covers
most of the middle ground extremely well too.  If all the rest of the
entire world used OpenOffice or one of the others then it'd be quite fine
with me as long as i was allowed to use LibreOffice = and it would be much
easier to collaborate with everyone else.  So for me the struggle is all of
us against the ones who focus on using proprietary formats.



For me, and i suspect quite a lot of the most vociferous detractors here,
the only real problem with LibreOffice is that it's sooo close to being
perfect but just misses by a frustratingly narrow margin.

Many regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 16:25, Cor Nouws  wrote:

> Alex Thurgood wrote on 11-10-15 15:06:
>
> > Agreed, but not, and I am expressing my own opinion, to the detriment of
> > dropping a software behaviour nuke on the users/admins.
>
> I hope that, compared to functionality in other software and on other
> devices, most changes will not be experienced as such :p
> This of course apart from unwanted side effects.
>
> > Sure, but both of these focus on at least LO 4.4.8, from my reading of
> > their respective websites. That is not an "old" version, it is the
> > latest version from the Still branch.
>
> Those offer multiple years support. Much longer than the say 9 months
> life cycle of normal LibreOffice.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cor
>
> --
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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 11/10/2015 17:25, Cor Nouws a écrit :

> 
> Those offer multiple years support. Much longer than the say 9 months
> life cycle of normal LibreOffice.

FWIW, and I can't comment on CIB supplied versions as I haven't tested
them, but the versions on the AppStore supplied by Collabora come with a
number of their own specific bugs that are not found in the TDF
downloadable versions.

I see no business rationale in paying for a product to gain bugs that
aren't in the freely downloadable version. After all, the aim is not to
have more than those that are in said freely downloadable product, surely ?

To top it all, I end up triaging those extra bugs on top of the QA
triaging I do on the TDF downloads because people add them to LO
bugzilla ;-)

Anyway, getting largely off topic, so signing off here.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Many Gnu&Linux distros offer their own somewhat independent support through
their own forums, mailing lists and bug-report systems.

That type of support is not available to Windows users and may not be
available to Mac people.


However it is true that there are many other support systems available and
those are (hopefully) available for all OSes.  There may be local support
such as a shop or relative who understands one OS better than others.

All support from TDF is available to anyone regardless of which OS so that
give Gnu&Linuxs users yet another set of places to get support from.  It's
usually helpful if we know which OS or at least platform in order to be
able to give more specific and relevant support rather than talking in
general terms.  However this seldom includes much help for those who are
stuck on older versions.

Also there are professional support services which can be paid for.  Again
these services can often provide support for a variety of platforms and
OSes.  This often includes tier 3 (or level 3) support so that might well
include support for older versions.


So one of the few places that doesn't support the notion of a "Long Term
Support" type release is TDF itself!  TDF say it cant be done.  Other
places just get on with it and do it.

Regards from
Tom :)



On 11 October 2015 at 13:15, Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Le 11 octobre 2015 11:44:33 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood <
> alex.thurg...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
> >
> >Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
> >discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less
> >justified
> >or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for change's
> >sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development. The
> >project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
> >to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the "bazaar"
> >mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
> >dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the direction
> >code development should take. This has positive and negative effects -
> >the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the thing
> >they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
> >consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
> >change long standing behaviour to which users have become accustomed.
> >
> >Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
> >contributors out on those decisions.
> >
> >I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
> >probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
> >OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
> >one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
> >else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
> >of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
> >and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
> >share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).
> >
> >At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
> >versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with
> >regard
> >to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are stuck
> >playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs or
> >behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases, or
> >for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's mention
> >in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
> >illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
> >non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea to
> >make that change without providing a solution for all platforms. Video
> >support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
> >with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
> >users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and
> >their
> >admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
> >people switch to another product that offers them greater longterm
> >stability where such changes are less invasive or devastating to the
> >day-to-day running of the organisation.
> >
> >
> >Alex
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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> >deleted
>
> Alex,
>
> I do not know where you got that support and security updates are only
> available on Linux.  That is factually wrong and serious bullshit. Get 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Cor Nouws]

Alex Thurgood wrote on 11-10-15 15:06:

> Agreed, but not, and I am expressing my own opinion, to the detriment of
> dropping a software behaviour nuke on the users/admins.

I hope that, compared to functionality in other software and on other
devices, most changes will not be experienced as such :p
This of course apart from unwanted side effects.

> Sure, but both of these focus on at least LO 4.4.8, from my reading of
> their respective websites. That is not an "old" version, it is the
> latest version from the Still branch.

Those offer multiple years support. Much longer than the say 9 months
life cycle of normal LibreOffice.

Cheers,

Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Yes the separate sub-folders for different Desktop Environments was a
work-around for some intractable problem which did eventually magically
unravel and get fixed.

I can't remember exactly when, maybe 4.2.0 or 4.3.0 - it was just after i
found out about the work-around and was still struggling with it at each
new install.
Regards from
Tom :)


On 11 October 2015 at 15:54, Andreas Säger  wrote:

> Thank you for the positive feedback. I hope you noticed the correction of
> Oct
> 10, 2015; 1:12pm by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 that there is no
> desktop-integration subfolder anymore. Well, there used to be a reason why
> it was organized this way,  anyway.
>
> If the file /usr/bin/soffice does not exist, there should be no problem.
> Run dpkg -i *.deb without additional switch which will include the desktop
> integration package.
> If you don't want any desktop integration because you want to use the new
> suite as a secondary suite, rename/remove the desktop-ingegration.deb file
> _before_ running dpkg and everything *should* be fine IMHO.
>
>
>
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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Andreas Säger]

Thank you for the positive feedback. I hope you noticed the correction of Oct
10, 2015; 1:12pm by Jean-Baptiste Faure-3 that there is no
desktop-integration subfolder anymore. Well, there used to be a reason why
it was organized this way,  anyway.

If the file /usr/bin/soffice does not exist, there should be no problem.
Run dpkg -i *.deb without additional switch which will include the desktop
integration package.
If you don't want any desktop integration because you want to use the new
suite as a secondary suite, rename/remove the desktop-ingegration.deb file
_before_ running dpkg and everything *should* be fine IMHO.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
+1
Although we often disagree with each other and have heated arguments at
times i have a lot of respect for the technical support Andreas gives and
also for his links to or suggestions of other places that give good
support.

He is a classic example of someone who works in both communities.  Not all
have the same attitude (of course) but his way has a lot of energy about
it, which is not always easy to be comfortable with, but his way does seem
to be an effective driving force at times.


I really like Zen-Wiz's script that does the same job as Andreas'
command-line.  Instead of having to type in the same commands each time you
would just double-click on the script file.  If the script is not already
in the "Extensions" library;
https://www.libreoffice.org/discover/templates-and-extensions/
then i hope he is is generous enough to add it in.  It is not really an
Extension as such but having a 3rd "App Store" type of place might be
tricky to arrange.

I keep meaning to add his script to the wiki-page;
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Install/Linux
if that hasn't been done already and i hope it gets added to the relevant
page on the official website too - preferably as both a downloadable file
and as just plain text on the page itself.

I'm fairly sure ZenWiz would be happy with that but it would be nice to
know that we can do that and use the Creative Commons CC-by-SA or similar
license (such as LGPL or MPL) so that people can modify and re-release in
other places as well as just using it.




Wrt the 3 "package managers" you named;  The Software Centre, Synaptic and
"apt-get" - Yes they are 3 ways of doing the same thing.  Each has it's own
advantages.  The 2 Gui ways are easier for point&click users.  The Software
Centre is good for installing entire programs that consist of many parts;
such as LibreOffice, MegaGlest, Wesnoth and so on.  Synaptic and "apt-get"
are better for adding individual add-ons, extra libraries for extra
functionality, codecs, specific fonts, command-line tools.  Apt-get has
commands to clean and remove temp files created when downloading and
installing things.

Synaptic and "The Software Centre" actually use "apt-get" to do a lot of
their work but they 'just' put a prettier face on it to make it easier for
point&click users.  Ok, they often do a lot more than that but it's the
easiest way of thinking about it.

So i might use The Software Centre to install LibreOffice, a camera and
Gimp - then turn to Synaptic to add extra features and fonts - and then use
"apt-get" to clear all the cruft away.  I could probably do the whole job
from any 1 of them but this way i have used each package-manager for what
it does best.

Regards from
Tom :)




On 11 October 2015 at 14:11, Virgil Arrington  wrote:

> Setting aside the discussion that followed, I would like to thank Andreas
> for his explanation of installing Debian packages from the command line.
> I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now, and I've learned how to use
> the Software Center and Synaptic as well as the "sudo apt-get..." commands,
> which I sense are just three different ways of doing the same thing. Beyond
> that, however, I've never learned how to install a Debian package without
> using the PPAs.
>
> Thank you Andreas for this explanation. You've expanded my knowledge of
> Linux. And after upgrading my Windows partition from 7 to 10 with less than
> satisfactory results, my reliance upon Linux is only that much greater.
>
> Virgil
>
>
>
>
> On 10/09/2015 05:58 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
>
>> And this is the non-PPA way of installing an archive of Debian packages
>> downloaded from libreoffice.org as described and supported on all
>> OpenOffice support forums since the days of OpenOffice2:
>>
>>> cd ~/Downloads
>>>
>>
>> If you downloaded the md5 checksum file as well, you can check the
>> integrity of your downloaded archive:
>>
>> md5sum --check 
>>>
>> Extract the downloaded archive:
>>
>> tar -xvzf downloaded_package.tar.gz
>>>
>> or use your graphical file manager to unpack the archive. I don't know
>> any way to do the following with a graphical tool:
>>
>> go to the extracted directory of debian packages which depends on the
>> langauge version. In case of en-US:
>>
>> cd en-US/DEBS
>>>
>> Install the packages as root:
>>
>> sudo dpkg -i *.deb
>>>
>>
>> This installs/updates the whole suite to /opt and you can start the
>> fully featured program by calling the executable file
>> /opt/libreofficeX.Y/program/soffice
>>
>> For any "desktop integration" you can install an additional package go
>> to subdir of en-US/DEBS:
>>
>> cd desktop-integration
>>>
>> and start a simulated installation
>>
>> sudo dpkg -i --simulate *.deb
>>>
>>
>> This simulation _may_ fail due to a conflict with /usr/bin/soffice which
>> is a symlink pointing to the executable and belonging to the
>> installation package of some other ODF suite.
>> If no such error is reported, re-run the command without the --simulate
>> 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Printing in Impress and file dialogue choice

[libreoffice-ml . mbourne]

Mike Scott wrote:

On 09/10/15 20:24, libreoffice-ml.mbou...@spamgourmet.com wrote:

Mike Scott wrote:

On 09/10/15 12:43, Malcolm Moore wrote:
...

This is outstandingly horrible !


Yes.


My summary for anyone in the same boat suffering from brain failure at
the end of the week:

.


It will then work for the duration of the session as A3 and Landscape
are now selected ( but greyed out again )
Once you save it and open it again you have to start from the
beginning.


Not correct AFAICS. Unfortunately, changing print properties doesn't
seem to mark the file as needs-to-be-saved, so ^S does nothing (and
File|Save is greyed out).


That depends on the settings:
- Tools > Options > LibreOffice > General > Printing sets "document
modified" status
and:
- Tools > Options > LibreOffice > General > Allow to save document even
when the document is not modified

Tools > Options > Load/Save > General > Load printer settings with the
document probably also affects whether previously saved printer settings
are actually used next time the document is opened.


Hmmm.

I think the problem here is one of obscurity. Too many options spread
over too many dialogues/tabs all affecting results, no obvious way to
find what's happening unless you "just know" to look there, and the help
file isn't very helpful.

There's even inconsistency between programs. Try the following in each
of Writer and Impress. Create a new document and save it. Change the
printer via File|Print setting. Now look at menu choice File|Save. In
Impress, it's greyed out. In Writer, it's available.

(Both options you mention above are unset in my system, btw.)


Now you mention it, I see that too in LibreOffice 4.4.2 on Windows. With 
both unset:
- Tools > Options > LibreOffice > General > Printing sets "document 
modified" status
- Tools > Options > LibreOffice > General > Allow to save document even 
when the document is not modified


Changing printer:
- Create new document (for Base, also create a database form)
- Save
- Change the printer at File > Printer Settings
  - In Writer or Base (at least in form editor), the document is 
treated as modified (Save is available, and attempting to close give a 
warning that it's not saved)
  - In Calc, Impress, Draw and Formula, the document is NOT treated as 
modified.


Changing printer-specific properties:
- Create new document (for Base, also create a database form)
- Save
- Change printer-specific settings at File > Printer Settings > 
Properties (I've tried with an Epson SX100 changing the Quality and 
Reverse Order settings)
  - In Writer or Base (at least in form editor), the document is 
treated as modified
  - In Calc, Impress, Draw and Formula, the document is NOT treated as 
modified.

- Save
- Again, change printer-specific settings at File > Printer Settings > 
Properties
  - This time, the document is NOT treated as modified, even in Writer 
and Base forms; it is only the first time that treats the document as 
modified.


Changing LibreOffice printer options:
- Create new document (for Base, also create a database form)
- Save
- Change all the tick-box options at File > Printer Settings > Options
- In all components, the document is NOT treated as modified.

It's probably not worth me reporting this against 4.4.2, but if you can 
reproduce with the latest version it would probably be worth submitting 
a bug report against Writer (it also affects Base forms, but I think 
that just uses Writer so probably really the same problem). If you 
submit a bug, please post back with the bug number.


Mark.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Virgil Arrington]

Setting aside the discussion that followed, I would like to thank 
Andreas for his explanation of installing Debian packages from the 
command line. I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now, and I've 
learned how to use the Software Center and Synaptic as well as the "sudo 
apt-get..." commands, which I sense are just three different ways of 
doing the same thing. Beyond that, however, I've never learned how to 
install a Debian package without using the PPAs.


Thank you Andreas for this explanation. You've expanded my knowledge of 
Linux. And after upgrading my Windows partition from 7 to 10 with less 
than satisfactory results, my reliance upon Linux is only that much greater.


Virgil



On 10/09/2015 05:58 AM, Andreas Säger wrote:
And this is the non-PPA way of installing an archive of Debian 
packages downloaded from libreoffice.org as described and supported on 
all OpenOffice support forums since the days of OpenOffice2:

cd ~/Downloads


If you downloaded the md5 checksum file as well, you can check the
integrity of your downloaded archive:


md5sum --check 

Extract the downloaded archive:


tar -xvzf downloaded_package.tar.gz

or use your graphical file manager to unpack the archive. I don't know
any way to do the following with a graphical tool:

go to the extracted directory of debian packages which depends on the
langauge version. In case of en-US:


cd en-US/DEBS

Install the packages as root:


sudo dpkg -i *.deb


This installs/updates the whole suite to /opt and you can start the
fully featured program by calling the executable file
/opt/libreofficeX.Y/program/soffice

For any "desktop integration" you can install an additional package go
to subdir of en-US/DEBS:


cd desktop-integration

and start a simulated installation


sudo dpkg -i --simulate *.deb


This simulation _may_ fail due to a conflict with /usr/bin/soffice which
is a symlink pointing to the executable and belonging to the
installation package of some other ODF suite.
If no such error is reported, re-run the command without the --simulate
switch. In case of conflict, it is safe to overwrite this single symlink
file /usr/bin/soffice:


sudo dpkg -i --force-overwrite *.deb


Now you have LibreOffice and its components in your Ubuntu dash and/or
menues. ODF files will be opened by default with your new suite.

As far as I know, "desktop integration" can be installed for one version
of OpenOffice and LibreOffice in parallel. There were times when I had 5
different versions of both suites in parallel but only one Open and one
Libre Office can have the "desktop integration" and only one particular
suite can own the /usr/bin/soffice symlink.
You are free to modify this symlink as needed but your package managers
is very picky about the ownership of every single system file outside
your home directory. Every single file installed remotely via apt or
locally via dpkg belongs to exactly one software package.
As long as this symlink is the only conflict, I think it is perfectly OK
to use the --force-overwrite switch.

Any additional language and help packages can be installed in the same
simple way:
0. run md5sum -check  to check the integrity
1. extract .tar.gz  with tar -xzvf ... or the graphical way
2. change to the extracted directory, subdir DEBS
3. sudo dpkg -i *deb
They refuse to install if their version does not match with any
installed office suite.






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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Alex Thurgood]

Le 11/10/2015 14:50, Cor Nouws a écrit :

> 
> Mind that not changing and improving compared where we are and were five
> years ago, is no option.

Agreed, but not, and I am expressing my own opinion, to the detriment of
dropping a software behaviour nuke on the users/admins.


>> At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
>> versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with regard
>> to certain distributions. 
> 
> To my knowledge bot Collabora and CIB offer versions with much longer
> support. Quite affordable and really valuable for organizations.
> 

Sure, but both of these focus on at least LO 4.4.8, from my reading of
their respective websites. That is not an "old" version, it is the
latest version from the Still branch.


Alex




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Alex Thurgood wrote on 11-10-15 11:44:

> Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
> discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less justified
> or relevant.

Indeed. Maybe I do not have the same opinion as Andreas always, but his
technical contributions are useful and IMO much appreciated.

> [...] The
> project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
> to the end user for feature creep.

I fully understand your concern on development, and partly share it.
I seriously don't think you can uphold the opinion that all major and so
much needed improvements are 'feature creep'.
Italo is simply correct when he refers to AOO as a dead and buggy code
project. The technical debt that LibreOffice started to fight in 2010
was one of maybe already a decade or more old. New features in
OpenOffice.org in the last years were even implemented in Java
extensions, so that the core code could be avoided..
But doing that work is a pain and needs many hands.

The good thing is that there is now a wonderful amount of people helping
on the code. Still more welcome, but we may feel happy with where we are.
The sad thing is that on the QA side less people contribute and things
can be further improved. This affects potentially all users, of whom
many could be valid contributors :)

Thus it is not without reason that LibreOffice has two branches. And
depending on your work, skills, time etc. there is a wide range to chose
from the last updates in the still branch, to early in the Fresh line
and even daily builds. The latter are great for most of the work, but of
course not for professional deployments.
And there are supported LTS versions - see below.

> Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
> contributors out on those decisions.

And he is not alone in that.
But note that the ESC and the board are working (after all that already
has been done) on more ideas to further improve:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/RegressionIdeas

Mind that not changing and improving compared where we are and were five
years ago, is no option.

> At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
> versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with regard
> to certain distributions. 

To my knowledge bot Collabora and CIB offer versions with much longer
support. Quite affordable and really valuable for organizations.

Cheers,
Cor

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Alex Thurgood]

Le 11/10/2015 14:15, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :


Charles,

> 
> I do not know where you got that support and security updates are only 
> available on Linux.  That is factually wrong and serious bullshit. Get your 
> facts straight: support is the same for the three officially supported 
> platforms: Windowslinux and OS X. Remember that many code contributors have 
> customers too. 
> 

I would be interested in learning where longterm support for "older"
versions of LibreOffice on OSX which involves security updates and bug
fixes is generally available. It would certainly help me explain to
people on bugzilla using older versions of LibreOffice on OSX why there
is no hope of bug xyz being fixed unless they upgrade both their OS and
install the latest version of LibreOffice.

If I look here :

https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/system-requirements/#Apple

Either I can't read properly or else the information at that place is
incorrect. As I was unable to find anywhere on the LibreOffice website
that indicates that there is support available for "older" versions of
LibreOffice on OSX < 10.8, then may I assume that my facts are indeed
right after all ?



Alex











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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 11 octobre 2015 14:12:37 GMT+02:00, "Andreas Säger"  a 
écrit :
>Am 10.10.2015 um 15:27 schrieb Florian Reisinger:
>> Would you be so kind as to tell us which aspects got worse?
>
>Macro coders depend on either MRI (Python extension) or XRay (Basic
>library). Both tools can be linked to the alphabetic index of the IDL
>reference for OpenOffice, however LibreOffice changed everything and
>there is no index that can be accessed by these tools. But hey, the
>OpenOffice reference is still fine because many of the subtile LO
>"improvements" are not visible in the API anyway.
>Oh, and most of my Python stuff broke due to the switch from "stable"
>Python 2.x to "fresh" 3.x.
>
>... to be continued ... (disregarding Mr. Vitrioli from Italy)
>
>
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>deleted

Hey Andreas,

Quick question: when was Python 3.x released ?  Several years ago - at least 5 
if I am not mistaken. So the ecosystem is moving after all this time so such 
migrations should be expected.

Best,

Charles. 
-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 11 octobre 2015 11:44:33 GMT+02:00, Alex Thurgood  
a écrit :
>Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :
>
>Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
>discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less
>justified
>or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for change's
>sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development. The
>project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
>to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the "bazaar"
>mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
>dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the direction
>code development should take. This has positive and negative effects -
>the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the thing
>they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
>consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
>change long standing behaviour to which users have become accustomed.
>
>Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
>contributors out on those decisions.
>
>I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
>probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
>OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
>one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
>else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
>of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
>and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
>share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).
>
>At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
>versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with
>regard
>to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are stuck
>playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs or
>behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases, or
>for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's mention
>in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
>illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
>non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea to
>make that change without providing a solution for all platforms. Video
>support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
>with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
>users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and
>their
>admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
>people switch to another product that offers them greater longterm
>stability where such changes are less invasive or devastating to the
>day-to-day running of the organisation.
>
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>deleted

Alex,

I do not know where you got that support and security updates are only 
available on Linux.  That is factually wrong and serious bullshit. Get your 
facts straight: support is the same for the three officially supported 
platforms: Windowslinux and OS X. Remember that many code contributors have 
customers too. 

 As for calling developers on their responsibility that is quite easy 
especiaIly when that call takes an oracular form: doing it in such a way is one 
of the things defining a troll. I wonder if Andreas does the same for AOO ? 
Something tells me that is not the case but I could be wrong.

Best, 

Charles. 
-- 
Envoyé de mon appareil Android avec K-9 Mail. Veuillez excuser ma brièveté.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Andreas Säger]

Am 10.10.2015 um 15:27 schrieb Florian Reisinger:
> Would you be so kind as to tell us which aspects got worse?

Macro coders depend on either MRI (Python extension) or XRay (Basic
library). Both tools can be linked to the alphabetic index of the IDL
reference for OpenOffice, however LibreOffice changed everything and
there is no index that can be accessed by these tools. But hey, the
OpenOffice reference is still fine because many of the subtile LO
"improvements" are not visible in the API anyway.
Oh, and most of my Python stuff broke due to the switch from "stable"
Python 2.x to "fresh" 3.x.

... to be continued ... (disregarding Mr. Vitrioli from Italy)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[James Wilde]

+20


Alex Thurgood 
11 Oct 2015 11:44via Postbox 


Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less justified
or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for change's
sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development. The
project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the "bazaar"
mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the direction
code development should take. This has positive and negative effects -
the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the thing
they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
change long standing behaviour to which users have become accustomed.

Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
contributors out on those decisions.

I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).

At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with regard
to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are stuck
playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs or
behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases, or
for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's mention
in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea to
make that change without providing a solution for all platforms. Video
support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and their
admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
people switch to another product that offers them greater longterm
stability where such changes are less invasive or devastating to the
day-to-day running of the organisation.


Alex









Italo Vignoli 
10 Oct 2015 23:36via Postbox 


Please avoid entering in a discussion with a well know enemy of
LibreOffice. Andreas Saeger aka Villeroy has been spreading FUD about
LibreOffice since forever. People happy with a dead and buggy software -
aka Apache OpenOffice - should avoid commenting on LibreOffice mailing
lists.

Florian Reisinger 
10 Oct 2015 15:27via Postbox 


Would you be so kind as to tell us which aspects got worse?

Andreas Säger 
10 Oct 2015 15:26via Postbox 



LO introduces far too many changes to the worse which is why I still
prefer OpenOffice.


Philip Jackson 
10 Oct 2015 15:23via Postbox 



Thank you Tom for that interesting explanation of the documentation 
website.


It explains why I often have trouble finding answers there. I keep a 
local copy
of "OpenOffice.org 3 Writer Guide" on my machine and can often find 
answers

there faster than on the website.

Philip





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[libreoffice-users] Re: Installing Libreoffice in Ubuntu

[Alex Thurgood]

Le 10/10/2015 23:36, Italo Vignoli a écrit :

Suffice it to say that Andreas is a vociferous participant in this
discussion list, but that doesn't make his criticisms any less justified
or relevant. What he dislikes is badly implemented change for change's
sake, and that is an inherent problem in LibreOffice's development. The
project from the start has sacrificed behavioural stability with regard
to the end user for feature creep. We are quite clearly in the "bazaar"
mode of the cathedral and bazaar dichotomy, where no overlying
dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise) exists to govern the direction
code development should take. This has positive and negative effects -
the positive being that people can just turn up and work on the thing
they want to implement - the negative being the law of unintended
consequences, or collateral damage, i.e. bugs newly introduced that
change long standing behaviour to which users have become accustomed.

Fortunately, there are still people like Andreas to call the code
contributors out on those decisions.

I would suggest putting yourself in an admin's place where they have
probably invested long hours in developing a turnkey
OpenOffice/LibreOffice solution for their group of users, then finding
one day that that longstanding behaviour has changed because someone
else has not thought through a code change due to the tentacular nature
of the code base with no one having an overarching knowledge of it all,
and you will perhaps understand Andreas' frustration (which I happen to
share and have voiced it on the mailing lists in the past).

At present, long term support (bug fixes, security updates) for older
versions is to my knowledge only available on Linux and only with regard
to certain distributions. If you are not on Linux, then you are stuck
playing catch up with versions that successively introduce new bugs or
behaviours that don't get fixed for at least several point releases, or
for certain OSes, over multiple major version releases. Steve's mention
in this thread of EPS support and printing is just yet another
illustration of a change that was made that has a huge impact on
non-Linux OSes - all because someone thought it would be a good idea to
make that change without providing a solution for all platforms. Video
support in Impress is yet another issue that got significantly worse
with the move to the 4.x branch. What was the message we gave to our
users ? "Suck it up." There is only so much of that that users and their
admins are prepared to do, and in the end, it won't be surprising if
people switch to another product that offers them greater longterm
stability where such changes are less invasive or devastating to the
day-to-day running of the organisation.


Alex









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