[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-projects] Macro Conversion Project

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Fahiri,

On 29/06/18 13:43, Fahri Güreşçi wrote:
> My name is Fahri. I recently graduated from computer engineering.

Great to meet you.
> I know macros are causing a lot of problems in LibreOffice migrations. I am
> writing a service that will translate Microsoft Office macros into one for
> LibreOffice. I made some progress. I publish my work here (
> https://macroconverter.com). I have licensed the code I wrote with GPL-3-0
> and the source code is also available here (https://github.com/fahri314/m
> acro-converter).

It looks interesting. Sun Microsystems implemented something similar in
the deep past - but in the end it was abandoned. This is primarily
because if you want to inter-operate you need to be able to save that as
VBA macros again - so you have to do this bi-directionally =)

> I need all kinds of ideas.

Instead we implemented built-in inter-operability for existing VBA
scripts so you can load your VBA macros, and just run them inside
LibreOffice (to some degree).

The major thing to improve there is the implementations of all the
object model methods, of which there are quite a number - improving that
is a -great- bite-sized task that anyone can work on. Doing that also
helps our COM interoperability via COLEAT. If you'd be interestedd in
working on that please get in touch with Tor who can perhaps give you
some code pointers.

It would be great to have you involved,

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Does Collabora support IPV6 environments?

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stefan,

On 17/01/18 20:58, Stefan Veith wrote:
> Conclusion: Also dual stack is working as expected.

Thanks for testing =)

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Does Collabora support IPV6 environments?

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stefan,

On 14/01/18 17:44, Stefan Veith wrote:
> For the default setting ("all") loolwsd is listening on IPv6 only.
> Netstat does not show port 9980 listening on IPv4.

That is interesting; quite probably the OS can't easily show this to
people; do you have other examples of sockets with the socket option on
to listen to both.

> Using the IPv4 as config parameter shows port 9980 listening on IPv4.
> Using the IPv6 as config parameter shows port 9980 listening on IPv6.
> 
> Conclusion: IPv4 or IPv6 is working as expected!

Great.

> Dual Stack is not working as expected. -> only listening on IPv6

Did you try connecting as IPv4 though ? my testing here suggests that
'all' works fine over an IPv4 network =)

Thanks for testing,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Does Collabora support IPV6 environments?

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stefan,

On 07/01/18 20:29, Stefan Veith wrote:
> I started testing Collabora V3 (CODE) to integrate online office into my
> nextcloud.
...
> My Nextcloud is only reachable via IPV6 from the internet because my cable
> ISP (Unitymedia) provides internet access via DSLite (Dual Stack Lite with
> carrier grade NAT)
> I dit not find any solution to bind loolwsd to an IPV6 address. Loolwsd is
> only listening on the IPV4.

As it happens, I implemented IPv6 support this this afternoon to keep
my mind alive between tasks ;-) Testing much appreciated, please do pick
the patch from online master; the default should be both IPv4 + IPv6
listening.

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Cannot run Libre Office on the new Microsoft Surface Computers

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Allan,

Thanks for reporting this.

On Thu, 2015-12-03 at 11:56 +0100, Cley Faye wrote:
> 2015-12-03 5:58 GMT+01:00 Allan :
> > Having problems running Libre Office on both the new Surface Pro 4 and on
> > the new Surface Book. After installing the application and clicking on the
> > application, all I get is a black window for the any application in Libre
>
> If the issue really lies in the way LibreOffice use OpenGL, you can try
> disabling it.

Some great help; thanks Cley. In fact there is an easier way to disable
GL without the UI or editing XML files. See:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/OpenGL#Crash_on_program_start

In particularly just merging the registry fragment would nail that for
you.

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=118060

Sorry for the issue. Please can you also file a bug with your hardware
information, ideally marking it as a blocker of this tracker bug:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93529

so we can a) ask you to re-test this when its fixed (I'm currently
working on a significant simplification of the GL code here).

Also - it would be lovely to have the information on your hardware /
graphics drivers so we can black-list it if necessary (from the wiki
page above).

Thanks !

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer and EPS images.

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Steve,

On Wed, 2015-03-11 at 13:36 +1300, Steve Edmonds wrote:
 Most of my data sheets have EPS images (for the vector graphics) output 
 from our cad system. Up until LO4.1 went to 4.2.. these were printed 
 correctly.

This an annoying one to fix sadly; it's easy enough to get EPS into a
Postscript stream - but when we switched to PDF that went to pot.

 I just updated to 4.3 and noticed this was broken, went back to 4.1 and 
 OK, tried 4.2 and 4.4 and both broken also.
 There is a bug filed at 
 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85748

It is notable that the underlying issue:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67465

Is an easy-hack, meaning anyone can work on it ;-) we just need to add
some hard-coded lists of suitable paths to hunt for the ps2edit
converter.

In the longer term, having xpost integrated to actually properly render
the EPS would be far nicer; but that's rather a bigger job.

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer and EPS images.

[Michael Meeks]

On Thu, 2015-03-12 at 06:24 +1300, Steve Edmonds wrote:
 Of interest was that LO4.3 on my mac renders correctly on screen but 
 prints incorrectly. If you can imagine that is quite misleading with an 
 EPS with no preview.

That is rather curious =) I guess the great-white-hope is not having to
rely on some horrible external thing and having good, built-in EPS
rendering - roll on a contributor working on that.

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: fixing as a service ...

[Michael Meeks]

Hi there,

On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 08:42 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
 Setting up an entire automated build/test environment is simply way
 beyond my capability. The best I can do is download installable builds
 and simply test them by using them.

Sounds good :-) that's why we have daily (and sometimes hourly)
snapshots of master - our latest development version available: to make
it easy for people to chase the latest features  help developers with
QA as they implement features.

 Meaning - a developer should be responsible for the code they write,
 including fixing bugs when they are found *without* resorting to
 'patches welcome' or 'pay someone to fix it'

So the when they are found bit is of course the key =) No-one intends
to introduce new bugs (well, ok some people argue that a new feature is
a bug but this is fairly rare). They happen as an accidental side-effect
of feature development, and/or fixing other bugs - which can often be
entirely un-related and somewhere completely different.

However the cost of a fix - in developer time goes dramatically up the
longer that it takes for the bug report to come in. I know some QA /
development guys who work in a quite tight loop together as a new
feature lands and is polished: that is -by-far- the most effective way
to provide feedback. A bug a year later far more expensive to fix.

Failing that, we provide great tools to try to close the gap between:
it broke and who is responsible / interested ? - which is 'bibisect'
- which allows you to go back and run historic versions to find out at
what point (and almost 'by whom') the issue was introduced. Most
developers when you have bibisected, and CC'd them to point at the patch
feel responsible and jump in to fix the bug.

Of course - some reports (and I assume it's not you doing this) at this
point (if you're lucky - often this happens when they find a bug at
all ;-) get a sense of outrage  entitlement and start shouting at the
embarrassed developer, demanding their work is reverted, demanding
processes to stop XYZ committing ABC until they (personally) are happy
etc. ;-) this piece of the puzzle tends to have a predictably
counter-productive outcome =) It is worth working hard to not
(accidentally) look like that interaction.

 If the vast majority of the developers don't agree with this principle,
 and in fact believe that they should be able to just commit code for
 something, then go on their merry way and/or respond with the 'patches
 welcome' or 'pay someone to fix it' responses

Given a generic bug reported loong after the development took place:
(ultimately) all bugs are caused by some developer either by action or
omission - I think that's a reasonable approach. The length of time it
takes to file it is -usually- a sign of its relative importance vs. the
other 6000+ open issues =)

Of course, if some reporter wants to help pin-point the regression to a
specific commit, and does a chunk of work to help interest a developer
in fixing it then that might work well too - that reduces the cost of a
fix to (hopefully) a simpler spare-time task.

From 10k feet though looking with an ecosystem perspective it is clear
that we have to stack the economics here to make things sustainable.
Expecting a (perhaps paid) developer to provide effectively indefinite
free support, to all users of every feature they ever implemented across
all other changes from others that may impact it is really not
realistic. If it was, we'd still have Sun around to fix the umpteen open
regressions vs. OpenOffice 2.0 ;-)

I'm sure that's a familiar model to someone who sells services. If you
do a for-a-fee install a deployment of say 60x Windows version N
machines - as a one-off without an ongoing support contract. You are not
surprised to hear the customer phoning to endlessly complain about XYZ
change not working, and ... expecting that your time is free - and you
can 'just' help them with a given problem for free etc. ;-) [ perhaps
you don't ?] but the situation is reasonably analogous. Normally you
solve these problems by having a short period: Report any issues inside
a month - after which, they have to pay for support. Not a perfect
analaogy, but ... in this case no-one is paying at all it seems ;-)

Hope that helps,

ATB,

Michael.

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[libreoffice-users] Understanding bugs / regressions / releases more ...

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Paul,

I apologize for not tackling your mail - apparently you hid most of it
after a sign off, and I didn't notice it =)

On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 00:26 +0200, Paul wrote:
 Please also understand that I don't use the feature in question, and
 until now didn't even know it was broken

This is (perhaps) a good heuristic for determining its burning (or not)
importance vs. the other 500 or so open regression bugs (?).

 And in the general case, ignoring enhancement requests due to lack of
 developer time sounds reasonable, but then what exactly are the
 developers doing with their time right now ?

So - developers do exactly what they want to. It is possible to try to
persuade them to do XYZ by winsome argument, challenging them in various
ways, paying them money etc. =) I do all of these from time to time.

  Are there so many bugs that they are only fixing bugs ?

There are enough open bugs to consume around 150 man years of straight
full-time developer time, and (as we know) they are the tip of the
iceberg - there are way more filed in the Apache bugzilla from the
legacy code. Also - in fixing them, I'd expect us to create another 50
or so man years of work - so lets see it as a round 200 man -year-
problem, and you're good. That's my estimate at least - it takes around
5 days on average to fix a bug (yes some are quick, but some are really
not) - so do the math.

Some people look at that and say: we should just spend 4-5 years only
fixing bugs and then try to back that up with some co-ercive: we
should lock down git and stop any commits that are not bug fixes to try
to enforce that ;-) Personally I think that's only a winning strategy if
you want to loose all our volunteer (and commercial) developers that
actually do the fixing: ie. it would be completely self-defeating.

So this is not some either/or - it is a hybrid, we try to fix the most
urgent bugs, and also improve the code quality by re-factoring to reduce
the quality impact of future changes, and we write unit tests to try to
stop bugs getting in and we also work on features.

Either all attempts to reduce the management of an 8 million line
code-base down to a simple this or that type dichotomy seem pretty
doomed to failure to me =) its about trying to encourage a sensible
balance.

  In that case are no further major revisions
 expected any time soon? I'm assuming major revisions are still planned
 for the near future, so am assuming that features are being added

We have a time-based release schedule - which is de-coupled from any
features. If it was a sensible thing to do (and it is not) we could have
an entire release with no new features in it just bug-fixes.

JFWIW - to get a sense of bug fixes vs. features - just read and crunch
the release notes of a summer vs. a winter release: one has a lot more
features in it because of GSOC - we spend a -lot- of our time bug
fixing.

 but where do those features come from if not enhancement requests ?

Haha =) they come from what developers want to implement: ie. those
doing the work get to choose what to do. Some developers read
enhancement requests, most of us have a general feeling of the big
problems in the code we want to nail: some of which are really many
months of work. Of course, features are often paid for by customers of
the various consultancies working around LibreOffice - so then they get
implemented to that customers' time-line [ modulo the existing
time-based release schedule ].

  Unless there are both feature and enhancement requests, and if so,
 please explain exactly what the difference is, and why only one of
 those is considered important right now.

I'd see feature  enhancements as synonyms.

 And given the prices quoted for features and bugfixes, I would say
 that only the super rich can afford that sort of thing. The rest
 of us, if we're not developers, will have to wait.

I don't really see a magic new way to fund eg. the 200 man years of bug
fixing we need (or some think we need assuming we want a zero open bug
count). Economics will ultimately win: there is no money fairy - so we
need to find some way of setting up the economics so it is sustainable;
the rest will fall into place.

 It is trying to market itself as if it isn't, as
 if it is a serious alternative. And that means it has users. And
 keeping users means at least a little pandering. 

Its quite probable that we can improve our marketing (as we can improve
everything).

 But for most commercial projects, if the users start complaining about
 serious bugs, they sure *do* jump to it. They don't put it in a testing
 branch and do nothing with it, hoping the users will notice and test it
 for them. They fix it, test it, and roll it out to their users.

Last I looked TDF recommended getting commercial support from a
certified provider if you're doing a commercial project. It is
unrealistic to expect 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: How to handle regressions

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Tanstaafl,

On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 15:23 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
  You call the bug in question a major regression, and forget that the
 people providing quality assurance are indeed volunteers. They either
 catch a regression, or they don't.
 
 Yes, but ...
 
 a) surely you aren't denying the fact that many - most? - of the
 Libreoffice *developers* - especially ones working on core functionality
 - are actually *paid* coders, are you?

Sure - some small but growing fraction of individuals working on
LibreOffice are paid; that small fraction produce around 2/3rds of total
commits. They are paid BTW not to fix random users' bugs - but to
support the customers of RedHat, Collabora, SUSE, Canonical, CloudOn,
Igalia, etc.

I suspect there is some mis-communication here that there is some
money-fairy around TDF that pays people full-time to fix random
end-users' issues =) Particularly end-users with customers paying them
to provide fixes / support for their issues - when they are depending on
getting that out of 'the community'.

 sigh Inability to cut/copy/paste from/into fields is a *major*
 regression - for anyone who uses them.

Sure - but, hey - it works for me; I have here a writer document
(loaded from a .doc) with fields in it and I copy / paste into it and
-it-just-works- (I have a 4.2 based build). So - I'm not sure that this
bug is quite as debilitating as suggested; there are several different
types of fields etc.

 Do you not see this? Is this not so obvious as to almost knock your head
 off?

Developers do test their features. We ask and encourage our users to do
the same, and to file bugs.

 A month later the OP asked if the 4.3 series would be patched or if we
 would have to wait until 4.4, and he was rudely (imnsho) told by Joel to
 'feel free to submit a patch', which happens far too often.

So - of course, QA are welcome to prioritize the bug as they see fit.
And whomever implemented the fix is welcome to submit it to whatever
versions they think it is important to go to. Sometimes we get that
wrong - and of course people can indeed jump in and help to get their
patch merged to another branch if they want it there.

 No one said they were (or this one was) - but it is also plainly evident
 that the developer who pushed this code into production didn't even do
 minimal testing.

I havn't read the bug; but there are a truck-load of assumptions behind
what you say that are way too numerous to even address here. Of course
developers test their changes, but there are lots of things that can
subsequently change underneath them that void assumptions that have been
made elsewhere.

Incidentally - what I -least- like about this is the commercial side of
it; its fair enough to make a mistake in the priority of a bug, or
forget to back-port some fix to somewhere. But there is a -serious-
moral hazard problem if we start to have lots of aggressive arm-twisting
on the users lists around specific bugs for other people's customers
that I'd like to avoid.

Anyhow - I hope that helps; it looks like for better or worse we got
the underlying issue resolved.

ATB,

Michael.

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[libreoffice-users] fixing as a service ...

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Tanstaafl / Florian,

On Thu, 2014-10-02 at 09:50 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
 You obviously haven't read this entire thread. Florian is trying to
 extort money from me to fix this major regression.

So - just to put my oar in here since Collabora was mentioned; I notice
several issues here and some bugs - let me try to address them in order
from my perspective.

A. I'm pleased that Florian is excited about our L3 bug
   fixing services (so am I) - but I'd -really- prefer people to
   advertise other competent / certified developers; the project
   benefits from a diverse corporate ecosystem; so it is wise to
   link this instead:

  http://www.documentfoundation.org/certification/developers/

B. It is true that there is a sense in which large corporate
   users of LibreOffice capture a lot of benefit and cost saving
   from that - and a great way to contribute back is to help
   fund someone to represent your interests in the development
   community - by writing regression tests for your pet features
   and being present in the discussions.
+ arriving after the fact and complaining doesn't work.

C. Anything is possible, don't assume that because it is
   'broken' today, it will not be fixed tomorrow. Please don't
   assume that because it is difficult a volunteer won't fix it
   I know volunteers of amazing skill and tenacity nailing
   horrible bugs left/right =)

D. Complaining doesn't work, contribution does. IMHO LibreOffice
   does not exist to meet your needs, it exists to allow you to
   collaborate constructively with others to meet our needs :-)
   We are a meritocracy, and constructive contribution should
   give you, whomever you are, influence.

E. Extortion is a pretty silly word to use to describe a
   mismatch of expectations around a bug or two.

F. A couple of specific bugs:

   Apparently not a regression: around printing
   https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=65205

   Input fields re-work:
   https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79877
   I'm confused wrt. this one, we re-worked text fields adding
   MS Office compatible rich, in-line editable fields for
   LibreOffice 3.x - so - perhaps this is another feature ?
   quite possibly we started mapping old fields to new ones
   in the filters more recently but ...
   The underlying feature un-screwed-up millions of business
   users documents, and hugely improved interoperability so ...

  A regression should be dealt with, and in your case it has, just not 
  fast enough for you - but that is life.
 
 Yep... and the consequences, in this case, are that my biggest client is
 seriously considering switching to Microsoft office

I like the fact that you care about that =) so do I - Free Software is
important - I wish it was perfect; we should try to make the project a
fun  constructive one where more people feel like they want to
volunteer their time to make a positive change. Tone helps there.

Then again, if you really can't get your work done with LibreOffice
(yet), and you prefer to pay a chunk of cash to Microsoft rather than
pay for having LibreOffice tweaked to your taste, then that is entirely
your choice - and the economics of course depend on how many users you
have: if it is just 5x people - then, it's not enough to justify paying
for any debilitating issue to be fixed - of course.

Finally, I'm curious how Microsoft handles these pop-out vs. inline
fields - they do have file-format support for their legacy fields of
course I just wonder if they try to update them in newer versions [ if
there are no macros / whatever associated with them ].

Anyhow - hope that helps,

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] fixing as a service ...

[Michael Meeks]

On Fri, 2014-10-03 at 12:26 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
 So basically LibreOffice is 

Is what it is (profound huh).

 Anything could easily fail at any time.

All software is buggy.

 If something does fail then users are expected to fix it for
 themselves ?

I don't know how you make that stuff up. There are a huge number of
bugs filed (and fixed) each week from companies and individuals around
the project.

My thesis is that shouting and pointing is not a good strategy for
interesting volunteers in your bug; and demanding XYZ is a particularly
unhelpful approach; grow the ecosystem of people contributing to
improving quality by either contributing yourself, or paying someone
else to is by contrast a constructive thing to do =)

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Nitpicking on a name

[Michael Meeks]

On Mon, 2014-07-28 at 21:33 +0700, Urmas wrote:
  What pleasure do you take out of insulting people?
 It is you who are insulting people.

Please, please - lets calm down =) Charles is right - it makes sense to
have a consistent, findable brand: LibreOffice emphasized - it is good
to have a gentle reminder from time to time that it is good to do that
rather than using 'LO' =)

Of course, it's not the world's most burning issue - I guess that is
Urmas' point: there are plenty of other priorities; and of course there
is still a lot to do to improve LibreOffice left/right. I don't know
anyone who is satisfied with where we are. I see room for improvement
everywhere left/right. Then again to become overly obsessed by our flaws
is also unbalanced =)

Quite apart from all that it'd be helpful to be reasonably pleasant to
other people who disagree with us [ working on that myself ;-].

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: CONVERTING A MICROSOFT TEMPLATE TO BE USED WITH LIBRE OFFICE

[Michael Meeks]

On Wed, 2014-04-23 at 10:24 +0200, Alex Thurgood wrote:
 The dev working on LO didn't like the StarOffice binary filter code

Hated it with a passion is probably a better description than didn't
like - that code screwed us over and held us back very significantly.
It was a cut/paste of almost (which is part of the problem, the shared
code was really hard to change) the entirety of an ancient version of
the code-base, and a disaster in a box from so many aspects - whether
security, maintainability, binary download size, etc. etc. 

  so they got rid of it

Whoot :-)

 There was nothing seriously broken about the binary filter code used to
 support those binary sd* file types

I beg to differ =) That it mostly still worked doesn't mean it was not
fundamentally broken in many ways that are not immediately visible to
those not involved with the code particularly around its design and
architecture.

 Well, thank you for listening to my little rant for today, I'll crawl
 back under that rock I call LibreOffice QA, ROFLMAO.

Heh - so, the solution to this problem is (IMNSHO) to work on the new
libreveng versions of these filters to (at least initially) rescue the
core data, and ultimately the full feature set in less code, and inside
a much cleaner and more maintainable infrastructure. Its not such
difficult work even - it doesn't even require re-building the main
LibreOffice code (just that particular smallish filter), and I'm sure
Fridrich  co. would love help there if newbie developers want to get
involved. 

ATB,

Michael. 

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Urmas,

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 05:35 +0700, Urmas wrote:
 Then why does the LO site not feature a warning on a front page: User,
 you are ...

So - trying to condense something positive out of this; it sounds like
we should have something (perhaps in the BSA) that explains to
newcomers, that bug filing is appreciated - but having an expectation
that their bug is fixed and/or prioritized over others, or a feeling of
entitlement that because you filed it - we should fix it [ given the
vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs. time-to-fix (5 man days
avg) ].

I assume it would help smooth the flow of people feeling unreasonably
irritated if we had some more helpful text like that ? if so, it'd be
great to have a draft we can hand on to Rob / Cloph to put somewhere
there in some About bug filing page, perhaps after filing.

 One cannot build straw airplanes for 25 years instead of listening to 
 feedback ...

I listen to feedback a lot =)

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Ken,

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 11:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:
 After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues.  I 
 wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have 
 the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the 
 head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and 
 eventually fixed.

The problem of course is that there is no queue of bugs-to-fix. We try
to prioritize issues, so that we can see those that are seriously
debilitating and then try to fix those on a best-effort basis.

 What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS! 
 It's important to me.

This is the interesting piece to me. Can you expand on your experience
there ? clearly all bugs are important to someone - but not all are
'Critical' or whatever from a prioritization perspective. Nevertheless,
perhaps the naming of those prioritization is needlessly offensive.
Potentially with our new bugzilla we could use P1 - P6 or whatever -
making it clear that this is a spectrum.

 Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't 
 start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you 
 it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve.  Are you going 
 to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a 
 different mechanic?

I'm really not sure that there are any mechanics out there that do work
for free; I've not met one. Of course - if you want to pay for a bug to
be fixed, our level-3 bug queue has only a handful of open-bugs, and
they turn over on a weekly basis. But I strongly suspect you don't want
to pay.

So - perhaps a more apt analogy is taking your car to a local friendly
volunteer / free mechanic down the road who helps people out of the
goodness of their heart - and berating them for not spending a week
investigating and fixing the squeak in your suspension -now- because
he's been working trying to get other people's car's to start at all ;-)

Anyhow - there is no desire to offend people through the prioritization
flow; that is a really critically useful function of QA though - so
ideas on how we can improve that appreciated.

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Urmas,

So - I don't really understand your mail, which is a shame.

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 07:23 +0700, Urmas wrote:
 The only way users can contribute is when they are paying.

Surely you're a user - and you contribute with bug filing, triage, and
other QA things which are much appreciated.

  If a developer is paid for non-user-related applications, it will
 have the ubiquitous opensource mentality: I'm a GOD and you insolent
 worm will crawl on all fours at my feet because it pleases me to do so.

As a developer, this is a mentality I often see from users in bugs ;-)
the entitlement mentality - where users feel entitled to have exactly
the fix they think is most important to them, prioritized immediately
above all others, for free =) so it is not just developers that can have
attitude problems I think.

  Obviously the commercial products which have incident support with
 developers and actually implement what users ask of them basing on 
 what is asked and not on what is trivial to implement, will live LO
 in the gutter. 

I don't really understand that one - but it is a true-ism that if you
pay someone a salary you get to choose what they work on ;-) if you
don't you can try a spoonful of honey or (perhaps your tactic) a gallon
of gall to encourage them to work on something but not much more.

Luckily, since this is Free Software there is no significant barrier
(beyond ignorance - which is fixable with time and patience) to
contributing your own fix to the code if you want.

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Hello

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Tom,

On Wed, 2013-03-20 at 11:27 +, Tom Davies wrote:
 Now that Oracle are in charge of developing it Java seems to be
 increasing as a security risk.

You're smoking some good stuff here Tom ;- Oracle are no doubt
improving the situation they inherited in Java just fine. Last I heard
rumour that RedHat were stepping up to support older versions too.

It's a sensible thing to use Java for writing cross-platform
LibreOffice extensions. The only problem we have is with writing core
functionality in Java - since we can't be sure of the presence of a
suitable JVM on Windows machines.

HTH,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Development of Extensions for LibreOffice

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stephen,

On Mon, 2013-03-18 at 08:34 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
 I am having all sorts of problems with the source code in Eclipse. I 
 have created a new blank C++ project in Eclipse and imported the entire 
 sc directory into that project. Subsequently I have opened 
 dpgroupdlg.cxx in the editor (I'm also not sure why Eclipse displays all 
 directories duplicated) and Eclipse is displaying errors on just about 
 every statement in that file.

Well - that's really Eclipse' problem :-) can you turn off it's bogus
error display ? I guess getting help with Eclipse would be a good thing
to do. Potentially you don't want to create a project - but just use it
to edit the specific files.

 I think the first thing I need to do is to find all the include 
 files and add those directories into the include file path in the 
 project properties. One of the problems I have is that the statement 
 com::sun::star::sheet::DataPilotFieldGroupBy::SECONDS, is producing an 
 error complaining that symbol SECONDS is not found.

This is from an UNO / generated header. It seems highly unlikely that
Eclipse is going to do a perfect job of building LibreOffice. As such, I
would use it as a syntax-colouring text editor - not in it's all-seeing
monster mode ;-)

 How I  configure eclipse to consider the idl file to be the same as
 the hpp file so that these symbols get resolved?

I have no idea. You need to edit the code with some sort of source code
editor, Elipse is one option. If it can't control it's urges to try to
understand the entire (apparently not built) code-base then I'd
recommend using something else ;-)

 I am also having difficulty determining which dp module equates to 
 the dialog that gets displayed for variables that are dragged to the 
 pivot table layout areas, to specify the attributes of those variables. 
 Is there any documentation anywhere that explains what each module 
 within the suite actually does and how they relate to what is actually 
 displayed by Libreoffice for each function it performs?

Each module ? each top-level directory has README - patches to improve
them appreciated. Sadly there is no further good structural
documentation at all.

In general - if you want to go from the UI - the source code, you need
to go via the .src files - which you can grok for user-visible strings,
and then look for the defined names of those in the .hrc files - which
are shared between resources and C++ and hence into the relevant source
code and down to a widget.

Hope that helps :-)

Michael.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: XSLX import/export filter funding

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Runar,

On Fri, 2013-03-08 at 22:45 +0100, Runar Ingebrigtsen wrote:
 I am having the pleasure of deploying LibreOffice to 50 employees at a
 local business.

Lovely :-)

 Unfortunately, this is hampered by the performance of the xlsx
 import/export filters. Meaning that there are some files, even simple
 ones, that takes extremely long time to open.

So - these are certainly interesting issues.

 There are several bugs describing this issue or similar ones:
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30770
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56259
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56394
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61721
 
 I have started a sponsoring offer for this, and am looking for
 participants:
 http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/offer/221
 
 Besides, I am trying to get the local business to join the sponsoring.

Sounds good to me; realistically (depending on whom you contract) I'd
expect a development outfit like Lanedo to charge Eur100/hr or more,
though Matus might be worth talking to (he charges a rather cheaper rate
and may be able to make some progress with that sum) - please contact
Tim Janik (Lanedo), and/or Matus - both of whom are CC'd off-list about
this if you're interested.

 I can provide more test cases with real world documents, but not in
 public.

Usually -such- bad performance is just something really stupid going
on; it should show up on the profile nicely and not be -too- hideous to
improve. Then again, the size/scale of the improvement will vary
considerably, and committing in advance to make it fast is not really
that feasible :-) JFYI.

Thanks for getting involved though  helping to fund development ! it'd
be great to follow up with interested individuals off-list.

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Development of Extensions for LibreOffice

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stephen,

On Wed, 2013-02-06 at 07:11 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
 On 02/06/2013 04:56 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:
  Adding the features you need to the core, so everyone can enjoy them
  out of the box is almost certainly the best way to achieve your goals -
  and (after all) C++ is not so distantly related to Java :-)

  I have already downloaded to source code and had considered 
 modifying the code directly, but thought and extension might be easier 
 and simpler, but if writing an extension means that it won't be 
 guaranteed of making the product then modifying the code is the better 
 way to go.

Right ! in my experience it's almost always -much- simpler to edit the
core code directly :-)

  I haven't looked at C++ in a long time but it shouldn't be 
 that difficult to pick up again, and it should be easy to get the code 
 suite into my Eclipse development environment once I update it for C++.

Sounds great.

 I'm also running out of time for relating Calc's compatibility to Excel 
 2002 as in April/May the organisation I work for is upgrading to 2010, 
 so I may just have to develop for compatibilty with that.

:-)

  I have 2010 installed on this machine at home, but it is running
 under Windows and I'll be doing my development work under Linux, and
 last time I looked Office 2010 doesn't run under Wine nor CrossOver Office.

So - often transferring files to/from a virtual-machine works; I use
Office 2007 under Codeweavers Wine just fine (well a few rendering
glitches from time to time but good for quick interop. testing).

Out of interest do you have a bug or two you want to hack on there ?
the Pivot table code is in:

sc/source/core/data/dp*.cxx (last I looked)

and the UI pieces in places like:

sc/source/ui/dbgui/dpgroupdlg.cxx

Better than that - we have unit tests for this stuff which live in:

sc/qa/unit/ucalc.cxx /testPivotTable/

and other bits there. I'd recommend getting some sample documents setup
that expose the new core features you want - and play with the master
branch there. Of course this is best discussed on the developers list
(no subscription required) which I've CC'd.

HTH,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Development of Extensions for LibreOffice

[Michael Meeks]

On Tue, 2013-02-05 at 17:08 +0100, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
  Via Simon Phipps on Twitter:
  We're rewriting the LibreOffice wizards in Python 
   because we can no longer be sure Java will be there 
-- Michael Meeks, #FOSDEM
 
 Hopefully then Python will replace Basic too. And maybe there might even
 be some documentation for LO/Python some day.

JFYI due to the joys of twitter - this is rather an horrible mis-quote
due to truncation. I can't remember exactly what I said, the video will
show as/when published but something like:

we can no longer be sure Java will be there on Windows.

ie. having our UI bomb out with horrible dialogs suggesting people
download a JRE to make File-Wizards work is really not ideal;
especially since we bundle a (tiny) python run-time already.

Java is still a really great way to write cross-platform extensions for
LibreOffice, and we still ship a load of java enablement pieces: they
just require a working JRE to be on the system (nothing new there).

HTH,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Development of Extensions for LibreOffice

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Stephen,

On Mon, 2013-02-04 at 06:57 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
  I have Eclipse with the OpenOffice plugin to enable development of 
 extensions for Libreoffice. Can someone tell where I can get 
 documentation on the Libreoffice Calc internals and how to interface 
 specifically to things like the Pivot Table dialogue so that it can be 
 extended. I want to work around the fact that Pivot Tables in Calc 3.6.5 
 are functionally not equivalent to Excel 2002 let alone Excel 2010?

Oh - that's bad :-)

  I was also thinking of developing these extensions in Java, are 
 there any issues with doing so?

Well - if you develop this in Java then it's unlikely to get into the
code code. Also - you'll have a rather grim time trying to get
everything you want, and (I suspect) you'll find embedding into
arbitrary dialogs is not really easy at all.

So - I -strongly- recommend just checking out the code, compiling it
and poking the developers list for some code pointers to that dialog.

Adding the features you need to the core, so everyone can enjoy them
out of the box is almost certainly the best way to achieve your goals -
and (after all) C++ is not so distantly related to Java :-)

Does that make sense ?

Thanks !

Michael.

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simplyunimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

[Michael Meeks]

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 20:05 -0500, V Stuart Foote wrote:
 It is pretty rare for specifics of bugs to be entered on the Users
 list, where there might have a passing comment that a bug would be or
 had been filed. But often no additional details of the bug in the
 discussion. But, that said, the threads are pretty descriptive.

I'm sure.
 
 Being a new subscriber, maybe the Nabble web interface would be of use
 to efficiently identify substantive issues that may have associated
 bugs. 
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Users-f1639498.html

I saw that, and I saw only Leif's bug linked there, in a monster thread
of vagueness. It is hard to justify dedicating the time to try to
reverse engineer people's names into bugzilla queries to dig out exactly
what bug they're talking about indirectly; and it's difficult to grok
the thread thus far. Better to ask for help - hence my request :-) so
here goes again:

If you have a bug that you're particularly concerned about having been
marked NEEDINFO / RESOLVED INVALID, can you mail me a link ?

At least - it doesn't seem a good use of my time, when I could be
fixing bugs, reviewing patches etc. - I was hoping that some volunteer
might help me by building a list of the specific issues; so I can trawl
through them and get down to the grist of the technical issues fast.
That of course, is an ask not -that- different from asking people to
check if their bugs are still relevant vs. the latest version.

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Marc,

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 09:03 -0800, Marc Grober wrote:
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35361
...
 that you knew you are creating extra work for the volunteers on the QA
 team with intend is really disgusting given the workload of this team.

I suspect that what upset Bjoern (and upsets me too) is where you
wrote:

Marc Grober wrote:
 My response IS NOT productive (as was initially noted in this list,
 lol) but isn't it so much fun to be passive aggressive? 

It saddens me that you would deliberately waste people's time and act
aggressively towards volunteers who are trying their hardest to improve
the product, and get a clearer view of the open bugs. We try hard to
attract QA volunteers, and it's unusual to see fights in bugzilla.

Please consider a more constructive approach - if you disagree with
what QA is doing, then get involved - argue in a winsome way for a
better approach, invest your time to make things better.

In my experience, Free Software is more easily improved by showing how
things can be done better: submitting patches, doing the hard-work in
bugzilla, etc. than by criticism from the sidelines.

Thanks !

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

[Michael Meeks]

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 09:00 -0800, Marc Grober wrote:
 The latest from Florian in misspelled CAPS (which now brings us to the
 fact that the devs have touched this bug some 8 times without ever
 bothering to actually read it) - Bravo Florian, we read you 5 by 5:

I've read it a couple of times over the years - and concluded that it's
a minefield: of licensing - bundling GPL pieces, of odd requests:
please checkin this binary into your source code revision control, and
worse.

It requires some real thought, research and unwinding to get it right.
It is not a trivial matter of just shove XYZ file into your
distribution - while that may work, it is not a sustainable way to
develop software.

Please don't think that because your bug is not commented on that it is
not considered. In general I like to provide some positive input in bugs
rather than the above. As such, we need to find someone to do the hard
work to get the code provenance unwound, and grok the situation as to
what can be included and how.

Since I don't have the time to do that now, and I know of no-one that
does, it looks set to continue to remain open; at least until someone is
motivated to do the necessary work. It looks just like a lot of other
nice-to-have features we want but can't yet resource.

All the best,

Michael.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Excuse me, but your opinion is simply unimportant. Start over and you can expect more of the same.

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Marc,

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 08:23 -0800, Marc Grober wrote:
 But the devs have spent more time fiddling with how it is listed 

One thing that frustrates me, since I've only just subscribed is that
we seem to be talking about a load of bugs with no numbers I can easily
lookup.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some kind soul could scrape the thread in
their mailbox for a list of bug links to the most significant issues and
aggregate them in a single mail - so I can go and triage them.

 did you see any comment from any dev on THIS list apologizing to
 users, acknowledging issues, etc. ?

I just subscribed ;-) [ for some reason my original subscription
bounced ]; if an apology is missing here it is:

Sorry !

The aim is not to annoy users, but to close a large number of old bugs
with (apparently) no response to them, that may have been mis-classified
in the past, due to random technical reasons (around not being able to
set bugs back to the UNCONFIRMED state) that will not affect new bugs.

We don't want to upset people. Having said that - I'm reasonably
optimistic that people watching bugs that have had 4x duplicate messages
(an unfortunate mistake) closing them will notice ;-) and re-open any
bugs that they care about - at least that is my hope; so it's not the
end of the world.

It should be noted, that doing this sort of mass-close is a response to
having a QA team which has no time to do a massive manual triage of each
of these old / indeterminate issues to see if they are already fixed /
obsolete etc.

There is a fairly easy solution here though - for all those who
complain about the consequences of the problem to get stuck into helping
out with triage / reproducing and confirming bugs etc.

Of course, suddenly reminding a load of people that their bug is still
not fixed generates some angst - but bugs don't magically fix themselves
over time, it takes real work :-)

Apologies,

Michael.

-- 
michael.me...@suse.com  , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot


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[libreoffice-users] Re: Default Encryption Fails for Down-Level Implementations

[Michael Meeks]

On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 22:25 +, Caolán McNamara wrote:
 On Fri, 2012-03-23 at 13:37 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
  Here is a message that I have just sent to ooo-dev about the silent
  switching to AES256 being an interoperability problem.  The
  recommendation is to stay with the only cross ODF
...
 We backported to the LibreOffice 3.4.X series the ability to open the
 AES256 default encryption of the later versions FWIW.

Right, we did that in LibreOffice 3.4.5 - released mid January, and of
course it's in 3.4.6 which we just released.

HTH,

Michael.

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[libreoffice-users] Re: ODF format validity

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek sramek.milos at gmail.com writes:
 I want to point to a problem  regarding validity of the ODF documents
 produced by LO.

Your report ended up as a bug report here:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37390 and was fixed, the fix will
be in 3.4.1 out soon.

Thanks.


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