Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-10-05 03:30, Thorsten Behrens a écrit :

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com]

Thanks to all the people who answered this. It seems whether LibreOffice
is partially or completely compliant to "OASIS version 1.2" is more
complicated to establish for non-dev people.


LibO is, like OOo, an extended conformance producer/consumer of
ODF1.2, in its default setup. Choosing ODF format version 1.2 in
Tools->Options->Load/Save->General makes it produce "conforming ODF
documents" as per 22.2.1.

Everything else is a bug. :)


   There is basically schema validation available, and there are a variety
   of schema verifiers.  It would be good to work cooperatively to improve
   them.  (Schema validity assessment is not enough to know that all of the
   ODF rules not baked into the schema are honored, but it is an important
   first-order start.)


http://www.probatron.org:8080/officeotron/officeotron.html to the
best of my knowledge goes beyond pure schema verification, but also
e.g. checks various prose-only normative requirements (e.g. for the
zip package).

I'm not subscribed to the users list, so if you need my answer,
please Cc me.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten



Thanks for the two sites. I'll give them a try to see what kind of 
results. they get.


Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Hi Tom


Tom wrote:
> 
> We are making a big fuss about very trivial differences.  
> 

How do you know they are trivial? In the document I referred previously in
this topic, after conversion to ODF, which took me a few hours, opening in
Abiword 2.9.1 or Textmaker 2012 (Beta) is useless.

The only other program where the file looks _similar_ is in IBM Lotus
Symphony 3.0

So I'm not talking about trivialities... And this is a small 51 page
report...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Tom]

Hi :)
We are making a big fuss about very trivial differences.  The OpenDocument
Format does allow for some leeway so that the various programs that
implement ODF can read documents that are not fully compliant.  Each program
that implements ODF 1.2 has it's own tiny quirks and each other programs
should be able to cope with slight deviations.  

Almost no-one and almost nothing is perfect.  It's something to aspire to
and work towards but we have to have something workable to actually use as
we approach that.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Tom wrote:
> 
> Many programs don't fully comply with their own specs.  
> 

The fact that many programs do that makes it correct?


Tom wrote:
> 
> OpenSource ones tend to try to fix that through bug-reports and such-like. 
> We often grumble when we find an example of a proprietary program, such as
> MS Office, not complying with it's specs.  
> 

The fact that you can report bugs isn't synonymous that someone will try to
fix it ;)

MS doesn't have to publish any specs. And most MS formats are closed source.
It is in their best interest that only their program is 100% compatible.

If you bother to create an open format so that any program can open it (and
therefore freeing you from vendor lock), any incompatibility with the
standard is bound to create problems when you try to open the document in
another program...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Tom]

Hi :)
As Thorsten said, almost any case of non-conformance is considered a bug. 
There are some bug-reports posted about specific examples of non-conformance
which get posted when people find examples of non-conformance and feel up to
the challenge of posting a bug-report about it.  

Many programs don't fully comply with their own specs.  OpenSource ones tend
to try to fix that through bug-reports and such-like.  We often grumble when
we find an example of a proprietary program, such as MS Office, not
complying with it's specs.  
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Thank you for the link, Thorsten (I can't CC you because Nabble doesn't allow
that)


Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> 
> LibO is, like OOo, an extended conformance producer/consumer of
> ODF1.2, in its default setup. Choosing ODF format version 1.2 in
> Tools->Options->Load/Save->General makes it produce "conforming ODF
> documents" as per 22.2.1.
> 

I think most users are aware of that. The funny (??) part is NONE of the ODF
documents I ever created with LO is a valid ODF 1.2 document. It makes me
wonder what was the point of making it a Standard and requesting ISO
compliance if not even LO follows the rules...

Just a thought...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Thorsten Behrens]

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com] 
> 
> Thanks to all the people who answered this. It seems whether LibreOffice 
> is partially or completely compliant to "OASIS version 1.2" is more 
> complicated to establish for non-dev people.
> 
LibO is, like OOo, an extended conformance producer/consumer of
ODF1.2, in its default setup. Choosing ODF format version 1.2 in
Tools->Options->Load/Save->General makes it produce "conforming ODF
documents" as per 22.2.1.

Everything else is a bug. :)

>   There is basically schema validation available, and there are a variety
>   of schema verifiers.  It would be good to work cooperatively to improve
>   them.  (Schema validity assessment is not enough to know that all of the 
>   ODF rules not baked into the schema are honored, but it is an important
>   first-order start.)
>
http://www.probatron.org:8080/officeotron/officeotron.html to the
best of my knowledge goes beyond pure schema verification, but also
e.g. checks various prose-only normative requirements (e.g. for the
zip package).

I'm not subscribed to the users list, so if you need my answer,
please Cc me.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

-Original Message-
From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 03:35
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[ ... ]

Thanks to all the people who answered this. It seems whether LibreOffice 
is partially or completely compliant to "OASIS version 1.2" is more 
complicated to establish for non-dev people.

It would be interesting if OASIS had a validation site much like the W3C 
validation site[1] where a person could check whether their version of 
ODF files were "OASIS-approved". It doesn't look like there is such a 
location on the OASIS site.

Cheers

Marc

[1] http://validator.w3.org


  Yes, there is no OASIS validation tool.  There is one that Oracle has.

  This has been discussed more on the "Assessing ODF Conformance ... "
  thread.  

  There will never be an "OASIS-approved" statement for ODF 
  documents.  

  There is basically schema validation available, and there are a variety
  of schema verifiers.  It would be good to work cooperatively to improve
  them.  (Schema validity assessment is not enough to know that all of the 
  ODF rules not baked into the schema are honored, but it is an important
  first-order start.)



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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-10-01 20:11, Marc Paré a écrit :

Hi Deni

Le 2011-09-30 21:17, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :

The OASIS ODF 1.2 Committee Specification 01 has been successfully
advanced to an OASIS
Standard,.


The final ballot results for approval of OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 is
at.

Rob Weir has a nice summary on his
blog,. He
lists the names of the contributors of 1.2 from the specification.
Some of those names will be familiar here.

- Dennis




Congrats to the team, great news! I was wondering if we were already
compliant with ODF1.2? If so we should market this along with
LibreOffice -- backwards compatibility being fully supported of course.

Cheers,

Marc




Thanks to all the people who answered this. It seems whether LibreOffice 
is partially or completely compliant to "OASIS version 1.2" is more 
complicated to establish for non-dev people.


It would be interesting if OASIS had a validation site much like the W3C 
validation site[1] where a person could check whether their version of 
ODF files were "OASIS-approved". It doesn't look like there is such a 
location on the OASIS site.


Cheers

Marc

[1] http://validator.w3.org


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Stuart,

V Stuart Foote wrote (03-10-11 18:43)


Perhaps you both could tone it down a bit--Tom is putting a fair effort
into his contributions.


Well, looking at the - in the mean time - quite long history that 'Tom 
and I' have, it looks that my mails tend to become a bit more bold. So 
OK, you to have a point here.


On the other hand, I could already have replied to more mails from Tom 
that are 'a little quick off the mark with rather general statements 
that promote FUD' in the past two (?) weeks, say since the shameful 
thread about 'Base development'. It's just I have some work to do, and 
also keep hoping for growing insight on Tom's side :-)


Kind regards,

--
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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[V Stuart Foote]

Tom,

Cor has a point, while you are prolific and appreciated for your
dedication, you do tend to be a little quick off the mark with rather
general statements that promote FUD. Perhaps you could be a bit more
deliberative and invest additional time in researching each response.

Cor, 

Perhaps you both could tone it down a bit--Tom is putting a fair effort
into his contributions.

Warm regards,

Stuart

=-=-=
V Stuart Foote
Systems Analyst
Geological Sciences
College of Sciences
The University of Texas at San Antonio



-Original Message-
From: Cor Nouws [mailto:oo...@nouenoff.nl] 
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 10:59 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote (03-10-11 02:21)
> Hi :) All releases of LibreOffice have used ODF 1.2 (Extended) as the
> default format.  I think OpenOffice and most other programs have been
> using it for a long time too.  It's only MS Office that is still on
> the older 1.1/1.0 formats. Regards from

I think that Tom is mailing things here, that are not accurate.
Even more: I am sure:
- What is 'for a long time'?
- Is MsOffice the only application apart from  LibreOffice and 
OpenOffice.org that (also) uses ODF?

How many times will you again be sending nice reading statements that 
might as well be in accurate and lead to discussion and confusion, Tom?
How many examples have we seen before?

I think it would be most helpful if you try to write things that are 
clear an accurate. If you have doubt: pls don't write ofr take time to 
really make sure first. Doing that, there may be still more than enough 
contributions from you left for this list.

Thanks for your careful consideration.

-- 
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Cor Nouws]

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote (03-10-11 02:59)

Hi :) I think there are a couple of bug-reports for deviations from
the 1.2 format but probably some of that has been fixed by now.


I think ... it is enough to point to my previous mail in this thread ..

--
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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Cor Nouws]

Hi,

Tom Davies wrote (03-10-11 02:21)

Hi :) All releases of LibreOffice have used ODF 1.2 (Extended) as the
default format.  I think OpenOffice and most other programs have been
using it for a long time too.  It's only MS Office that is still on
the older 1.1/1.0 formats. Regards from


I think that Tom is mailing things here, that are not accurate.
Even more: I am sure:
- What is 'for a long time'?
- Is MsOffice the only application apart from  LibreOffice and 
OpenOffice.org that (also) uses ODF?


How many times will you again be sending nice reading statements that 
might as well be in accurate and lead to discussion and confusion, Tom?

How many examples have we seen before?

I think it would be most helpful if you try to write things that are 
clear an accurate. If you have doubt: pls don't write ofr take time to 
really make sure first. Doing that, there may be still more than enough 
contributions from you left for this list.


Thanks for your careful consideration.

--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think there are a couple of bug-reports for deviations from the 1.2 format 
but probably some of that has been fixed by now.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Mon, 3/10/11, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:

From: Dennis E. Hamilton 
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Date: Monday, 3 October, 2011, 1:52

Marc asks: How conformant is LibreOffice as a producer and consumer
of the OASIS ODF 1.2 Standard?

I don't know how to assess that.  I assume it is reasonably
conformant and that most documents that happen to be produced
are satisfactory to consumers that accept ODF 1.0/1.1 also.

I don't know if there is any kind of LibreOffice inventory
that indicates what is and is not supported and what happens
when something unsupported is encountered.  Also, I don't
know what deviations there might be in the ODF documents
that are produced.  There is no official test suite or
any kind of conformance assessment.  

The marketing-level statement of ODF 1.2 support was made
(it seems like) years ago, starting with 3.0 I think.  What
I don't know is what it means *technically*.  I don't know
how that would be determined.  Most of what users run into
don't have much to do with the format, methinks.

I'm not saying it isn't conformant, I just don't know what
how to assess how close it is.  Maybe there is a state-
ment somewhere.

Sorry.

-Original Message-
From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 17:11
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[ ... ]

Congrats to the team, great news! I was wondering if we were already 
compliant with ODF1.2? If so we should market this along with 
LibreOffice -- backwards compatibility being fully supported of course.

Cheers,

Marc


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Marc asks: How conformant is LibreOffice as a producer and consumer
of the OASIS ODF 1.2 Standard?

I don't know how to assess that.  I assume it is reasonably
conformant and that most documents that happen to be produced
are satisfactory to consumers that accept ODF 1.0/1.1 also.

I don't know if there is any kind of LibreOffice inventory
that indicates what is and is not supported and what happens
when something unsupported is encountered.  Also, I don't
know what deviations there might be in the ODF documents
that are produced.  There is no official test suite or
any kind of conformance assessment.  

The marketing-level statement of ODF 1.2 support was made
(it seems like) years ago, starting with 3.0 I think.  What
I don't know is what it means *technically*.  I don't know
how that would be determined.  Most of what users run into
don't have much to do with the format, methinks.

I'm not saying it isn't conformant, I just don't know what
how to assess how close it is.  Maybe there is a state-
ment somewhere.

Sorry.

-Original Message-
From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 17:11
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[ ... ]

Congrats to the team, great news! I was wondering if we were already 
compliant with ODF1.2? If so we should market this along with 
LibreOffice -- backwards compatibility being fully supported of course.

Cheers,

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
All releases of LibreOffice have used ODF 1.2 (Extended) as the default 
format.  I think OpenOffice and most other programs have been using it for a 
long time too.  It's only MS Office that is still on the older 1.1/1.0 
formats.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sun, 2/10/11, Marc Paré  wrote:

From: Marc Paré 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: disc...@documentfoundation.org
Date: Sunday, 2 October, 2011, 1:11

Hi Deni

Le 2011-09-30 21:17, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :
> The OASIS ODF 1.2 Committee Specification 01 has been successfully advanced 
> to an OASIS 
> Standard,<http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/201109/msg00010.html>.
>
> The final ballot results for approval of OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 is 
> at<http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ballot.php?id=2115>.
>
> Rob Weir has a nice summary on his 
> blog,<http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/09/odf12-approved.html>.  He lists the 
> names of the contributors of 1.2 from the specification.  Some of those names 
> will be familiar here.
>
>   - Dennis
>
>

Congrats to the team, great news! I was wondering if we were already 
compliant with ODF1.2? If so we should market this along with 
LibreOffice -- backwards compatibility being fully supported of course.

Cheers,

Marc


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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Marc Paré]

Hi Deni

Le 2011-09-30 21:17, Dennis E. Hamilton a écrit :

The OASIS ODF 1.2 Committee Specification 01 has been successfully advanced to an 
OASIS 
Standard,.

The final ballot results for approval of OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 is 
at.

Rob Weir has a nice summary on his 
blog,.  He lists the 
names of the contributors of 1.2 from the specification.  Some of those names will be 
familiar here.

  - Dennis




Congrats to the team, great news! I was wondering if we were already 
compliant with ODF1.2? If so we should market this along with 
LibreOffice -- backwards compatibility being fully supported of course.


Cheers,

Marc


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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Here's a post from a Microsoft participant on the ODF 1.2 announcement:
<http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dmahugh/archive/2011/10/01/oasis-odf-1-2-approved.aspx>.
There's nothing about releases and support of ODF versions though.

-Original Message-
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 10:36
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

A while back, Microsoft offered a warranty with regard to ODF 1.2 support.  I 
believe it is contingent on ISO standardization occurring.  There is also an 
announcement that Microsoft would provide information on its ODF 1.2 support on 
the occasion of a Plugfest in Brussels this coming April.  That's the extent of 
the details I've seen.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Pedro [mailto:pedl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 06:34
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved


Cor Nouws wrote:
> 
> Pedro wrote (01-10-11 11:39)
> 
>> Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
>> application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?
> 
> Yes. Of course, some content (from the new standard) may be wrong.
> 

Excellent! More Kudos to all that were involved!

Now the next task is to convince Microsoft to use ODF 1.2 as an
import/export option :)

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Pedro. I agree that it would be more useful to have the choice of ODF version 
be available in the Save As ... dialog.  There could still be a default, of 
course, and there are nice ways to reflect that in the Save As ... also.

That is not about the ODF specification of course.

It sounds like a great LibreOffice feature request and an opportunity to file a 
bug report.

Will you be doing that?

 Regards,

 - Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Pedro [mailto:pedl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 10:57
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

Dennis, thank you for all the answers.

Sincerely, I'm surprised that you used Writer to edit a 1200 pages document.

I had to submit a 51 page report in Word and it was an absolute nightmare...
(BTW opening the same document in LO 3.4.3 shows how far cross-compatibility
still is :) )

Since ODF 1.2 documents will possibly cause problems with older software,
wouldn't it make more sense to have the option to Save As ODF 1.0 ODF 1.1 or
ODF 1.2 (in the same way that you can Save As Word 6.0 Word 95, etc) ???

I think this would be a lot more obvious than the current (almost hidden)
option to define which ODF format LO saves to...

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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Dennis, thank you for all the answers.

Sincerely, I'm surprised that you used Writer to edit a 1200 pages document.

I had to submit a 51 page report in Word and it was an absolute nightmare...
(BTW opening the same document in LO 3.4.3 shows how far cross-compatibility
still is :) )

Since ODF 1.2 documents will possibly cause problems with older software,
wouldn't it make more sense to have the option to Save As ODF 1.0 ODF 1.1 or
ODF 1.2 (in the same way that you can Save As Word 6.0 Word 95, etc) ???

I think this would be a lot more obvious than the current (almost hidden)
option to define which ODF format LO saves to...

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

A while back, Microsoft offered a warranty with regard to ODF 1.2 support.  I 
believe it is contingent on ISO standardization occurring.  There is also an 
announcement that Microsoft would provide information on its ODF 1.2 support on 
the occasion of a Plugfest in Brussels this coming April.  That's the extent of 
the details I've seen.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Pedro [mailto:pedl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 06:34
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved


Cor Nouws wrote:
> 
> Pedro wrote (01-10-11 11:39)
> 
>> Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
>> application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?
> 
> Yes. Of course, some content (from the new standard) may be wrong.
> 

Excellent! More Kudos to all that were involved!

Now the next task is to convince Microsoft to use ODF 1.2 as an
import/export option :)

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

"Is there an overview of the changes to the standard between v1.1 and v1.2 ?

"It might be possible to have both an odt11 and odt12 backend with odt12 
inheriting the bulk of odt11 and implementing just the differences."

There are some Appendices in Part 1 and Part 3 that describe changes since 
previous versions.  I don't know that they are complete and I don't know if 
they indicate what might be breaking changes.

For AsciiDoc and any emitter, it would be great if the software indicated the 
smallest version of ODF that was actually required to correctly consume a 
document.  I know that is hard.  One way to soften the blow is to not use a 
different ODF 1.2 provision when only the ODF 1.1 form is needed to accomplish 
a feature.  In many cases, ODF 1.2 defaults are the same as the only ODF 1.1 
capability, and it is ODF 1.2-unique ways of only getting that default behavior 
that will make an unnecessary incompatibility in a document.

 - Dennis

OT: Dag, have you looked at DITA, which also is apparently doing 
multiple-targeting?  

-Original Message-
From: Dag Wieers [mailto:d...@wieers.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 05:05
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Tom Davies wrote:

> All releases of LibreOffice have used the 1.2 (Extended) by default.  I 
> think OpenOffice was using it for quite a long time before that too.  I 
> think the only program that still uses the older 1.1 or 1.0 formats is 
> MS Office 2010.  I think Google-docs, KOffice, Calligra, AbiWord & 
> Gnumeric (together those 2 form Gnome Office) and the IBM's Lotus 
> Symphony (or whatever it's called) all have been using 1.2 for a few 
> years. 
>
> In LibreOffice you can confirm by clicking on
> Tools - Options - "+ Load/Save" - General
> about half-way down there is a drop-down showing "1.2 (Extended)".  I 
> usually change this to the older 1.0/1.1 in order to be able to send 
> stuff to MS Office users more easily.
>
> If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice 
> instead! ;) Lol

Thanks for making this clear to an ODF novice like me :)

I was wondering what standard I would use for my project and settled for 
ODF v1.1 (given that nearly everywhere, OASIS website and Wikipedia) 
refered to v1.2 as a draft.

Is there an overview of the changes to the standard between v1.1 and v1.2 ?

It might be possible to have both an odt11 and odt12 backend with odt12 
inheriting the bulk of odt11 and implementing just the differences.

Thanks in advance,
-- 
-- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/
-- dagit linux solutions, i...@dagit.net, http://dagit.net/

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Well, many products have been producing documents identified as ODF 1.2 for 
some time.  There are changes that came in during 2010 that, as far as I can 
tell, are not consistently handled yet.  And the OpenFormula specification, a 
major part of ODF 1.2, will take some time to be fully implemented.  (My eye is 
on Gnumeric for moving the goal posts on that one.)

There will doubtless be far more attention to ODF 1.2 conformance and 
interoperability, in detail, now that ODF 1.2 is considered stable and 
especially as it works its way toward ratification as an ISO/IEC International 
Standard next year.

Some regrettable small things in ODF 1.2 are also showing up and I look forward 
to plugfests and the work of the ODF Interoperability and Conformance TC to 
help sort those out and find workarounds until there can be ODF 1.2 Errata or 
remedy in ODF 1.3.

There is no official "ODF 1.2 (extended)" only "ODF 1.2" if interoperability is 
desired.  "(extended)" is a private matter and it might not be the same between 
products and even different releases of the same product.  Whatever 
"(extended)" means, it depends on the individual-product implementers to say.

I agree that, in terms of current releases that might have more attention to 
ODF 1.2 provisions, LibreOffice is a good choice, depending on what additional 
ODF 1.2 support is important and being provided.  I don't think that is a 
determining factor in much I've seen so far, though.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 04:56
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

Hi :)
All releases of LibreOffice have used the 1.2 (Extended) by default.  I think 
OpenOffice was using it for quite a long time before that too.  I think the 
only program that still uses the older 1.1 or 1.0 formats is MS Office 2010.  I 
think Google-docs, KOffice, Calligra, AbiWord & Gnumeric (together those 2 form 
Gnome Office) and the IBM's Lotus Symphony (or whatever it's called) all have 
been using 1.2 for a few years.  

In LibreOffice you can confirm by clicking on
Tools - Options - "+ Load/Save" - General
about half-way down there is a drop-down showing "1.2 (Extended)".  I usually 
change this to the older 1.0/1.1 in order to be able to send stuff to MS Office 
users more easily.

If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice 
instead! ;) Lol
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sat, 1/10/11, Pedro  wrote:

From: Pedro 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 1 October, 2011, 10:39

Congratulations to all.

I believe that a solid open file format is extremely important. 

Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?

Dennis, one curiosity since you were one of the editors: I assume you didn't
use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which program did you use?
Scribus?

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Whether a down-level software version will even accept an ODF 1.2 document as 
if it is a down-level document and do the best it can is not something the ODF 
specifications address.  It depends on the down-level product.  

It probably works with OpenOffice.org versions, but maybe not with other 
lineages.  

For example, the Microsoft Office ODF 1.1 support tends to be strict and will 
consider some ODF 1.2 documents as possibly-corrupted, although when asked to 
attempt to correct the document, it succeeds.  

There are some uses of new features (such as digital signatures) that fail in 
amazing ways between implementations, even when they are all identified as 1.2 
products.

In these edge situations, usually the only assured-to-be-successful consumer is 
a version of the same product that produced the document.  There is work to do 
in that area.  It may take a year or two for ODF 1.2 support to settle down and 
the level of interoperability to be raised across the board.

-Original Message-
From: Pedro [mailto:pedl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 05:16
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved


Tom wrote:
> 
> If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice
> instead! ;) Lol
> 

Hi Tom ;)

That was exactly my point. I hope that is not necessary.

If I'm sending a document to someone with an old machine running OpenOffice
1.0 (or whatever worked with ODF 1.0) I hope that I can send him an ODF 1.2
file and he still will be able to open it (even if he looses some format)

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RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Q: "Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?"

A: It depends.  There are provisions in ODF 1.2 that, if exercised in an ODF 
1.2, make it unlikely that an ODF 1.1 consumer could handle it properly.  Also, 
the document will be identified as an ODF 1.2 document and possibly in 
unexpected places that might interfere with an ODF 1.1 consumer.  

More A: In general, documents identified as 1.2 often have nothing that 
requires an ODF 1.2 consumer and they will be successfully handled.  There is 
no downward compatibility promise in 1.2 and there is no special provision, as 
some standards have, to help a down-level consumer detect and work around 
up-level features it was not designed for.

Q: "I assume you didn't use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which 
program did you use"

A: All of the document production was in ODF.  The editable forms of the 
documents are ODT files, and these are provided as the authoritative versions 
of the specification, along with PDF and HTML versions that are not 
authoritative.  Since most of the work was completed by the end of 2010, 
OpenOffice.org versions were used.  Also, some special XSLT scripts were used 
to create some of the content, such as cross-references and statement of XML 
dependencies that are derived by consultation of the schema.  

More A: I am currently working on an Errata for ODF 1.1 and that work is being 
done in LO 3.3.2, including a change-tracked version of the ODF 1.1 
specification that shows the Errata applied. (I won't change LO versions until 
the document is completed.)  Also, an Amendment for the ISO version of ODF 1.0 
was produced in ODF, although the documents circulated for approval at ISO are 
PDFs.  At this time, I do any creation of ODF documents for production purposes 
using LibreOffice.  (By the way, I am an editor on Part 3 only, the smallest 
part of the specification.)

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Pedro [mailto:pedl...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 02:40
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

Congratulations to all.

I believe that a solid open file format is extremely important. 

Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?

Dennis, one curiosity since you were one of the editors: I assume you didn't
use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which program did you use?
Scribus?

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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[NoOp]

On 10/01/2011 02:39 AM, Pedro wrote:
> Congratulations to all.
> 
> I believe that a solid open file format is extremely important. 
> 
> Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
> application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?
> 
> Dennis, one curiosity since you were one of the editors: I assume you didn't
> use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which program did you use?
> Scribus?
...
>From the pdf file properties I've looked at, it looks like a mix between
StarOffice 9, OpenOffice.org 3.2/3.3.


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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Cor Nouws wrote:
> 
> Pedro wrote (01-10-11 11:39)
> 
>> Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
>> application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?
> 
> Yes. Of course, some content (from the new standard) may be wrong.
> 

Excellent! More Kudos to all that were involved!

Now the next task is to convince Microsoft to use ODF 1.2 as an
import/export option :)

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Cor Nouws]

Pedro wrote (01-10-11 11:39)


Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?


Yes. Of course, some content (from the new standard) may be wrong.


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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Tom wrote:
> 
> If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice
> instead! ;) Lol
> 

Hi Tom ;)

That was exactly my point. I hope that is not necessary.

If I'm sending a document to someone with an old machine running OpenOffice
1.0 (or whatever worked with ODF 1.0) I hope that I can send him an ODF 1.2
file and he still will be able to open it (even if he looses some format)

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Dag Wieers]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Tom Davies wrote:

All releases of LibreOffice have used the 1.2 (Extended) by default.  I 
think OpenOffice was using it for quite a long time before that too.  I 
think the only program that still uses the older 1.1 or 1.0 formats is 
MS Office 2010.  I think Google-docs, KOffice, Calligra, AbiWord & 
Gnumeric (together those 2 form Gnome Office) and the IBM's Lotus 
Symphony (or whatever it's called) all have been using 1.2 for a few 
years. 


In LibreOffice you can confirm by clicking on
Tools - Options - "+ Load/Save" - General
about half-way down there is a drop-down showing "1.2 (Extended)".  I 
usually change this to the older 1.0/1.1 in order to be able to send 
stuff to MS Office users more easily.


If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice 
instead! ;) Lol


Thanks for making this clear to an ODF novice like me :)

I was wondering what standard I would use for my project and settled for 
ODF v1.1 (given that nearly everywhere, OASIS website and Wikipedia) 
refered to v1.2 as a draft.


Is there an overview of the changes to the standard between v1.1 and v1.2 ?

It might be possible to have both an odt11 and odt12 backend with odt12 
inheriting the bulk of odt11 and implementing just the differences.


Thanks in advance,
--
-- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/
-- dagit linux solutions, i...@dagit.net, http://dagit.net/

[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
All releases of LibreOffice have used the 1.2 (Extended) by default.  I think 
OpenOffice was using it for quite a long time before that too.  I think the 
only program that still uses the older 1.1 or 1.0 formats is MS Office 2010.  I 
think Google-docs, KOffice, Calligra, AbiWord & Gnumeric (together those 2 form 
Gnome Office) and the IBM's Lotus Symphony (or whatever it's called) all have 
been using 1.2 for a few years.  

In LibreOffice you can confirm by clicking on
Tools - Options - "+ Load/Save" - General
about half-way down there is a drop-down showing "1.2 (Extended)".  I usually 
change this to the older 1.0/1.1 in order to be able to send stuff to MS Office 
users more easily.

If you do have an older program then install any version of LibreOffice 
instead! ;) Lol
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sat, 1/10/11, Pedro  wrote:

From: Pedro 
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 1 October, 2011, 10:39

Congratulations to all.

I believe that a solid open file format is extremely important. 

Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?

Dennis, one curiosity since you were one of the editors: I assume you didn't
use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which program did you use?
Scribus?

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[libreoffice-users] Re: OASIS Standard ODF 1.2 Approved

[Pedro]

Congratulations to all.

I believe that a solid open file format is extremely important. 

Am I correct to assume that ODF 1.2 is backward compatible? I.e. an old
application will still be able to open a ODF 1.2 document?

Dennis, one curiosity since you were one of the editors: I assume you didn't
use LO Writer to compose the 1217 page document. Which program did you use?
Scribus?

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View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/OASIS-Standard-ODF-1-2-Approved-tp3384139p3384633.html
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