Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 20:28:34 +0700 "Urmas" wrote: > "Les Howell" > > > Microsoft hated the competition > > and so captured the control-J function (which happens to be a line > > feed.) This meant that the Windows systems would not run Wordstar. > > That's bullshit. Ctrl+J is a shortcut for Justify and... a paragraph mark in > text controls. > > > The Wordstar team worked out a new > > interface, but just as they released it, Microsoft made another low > > level change to the windows interface that made the Wordstar team have > > to create yet another work around, missing the market window. > > In which version it made that change? Stop spreading FUD. > > > Obnoxious is a word that springs to mind .. Pete . -- Linux 7-of-9 3.11.6-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Oct 18 23:22:36 CEST 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 16:39 -0500, Doug wrote: > On 11/03/2013 02:06 PM, Upscope wrote: > > On Saturday, November 02, 2013 12:46:43 PM Urmas wrote: > >> "Les Howell": > >> > >> Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > >> Office? > >> > >> Microsoft mostly. > >> > > /snip/ > > > Thats not totally correct if I remember right. Office started out as a > > joint project between IBM and Microsoft for the original PC. There was a > > differnet of directions and MS wnd IBM went there own ways. MS took a > > lot of the joint developemt (Stole) with them. we used to use Wordstar > > on or PC's. > > > > Russ > > > > It wasn't originally MS Office, it was just MS Word. It ran on DOS, > just like WordStar, but it had some basic word-processing functions > listed at the bottom, and it worked with a mouse, if I recall, which > WordStar did not. WordStar required a bunch of ctrl-x functions, where > x was some keyboard letter. This was, I believe, derived from > Teletype terminal days, where some k/b functions we expect, even some > found on a typewriter, didn't exist. Functions on a modern k/b, like > the up/down/left/right arrows were implemented by ctrl-x. Even > backspace, which doesn't exist on a teletype machine--ctrl-h will > do it. Even on a few programs today, but not T/Bird--I just tried! > I think Word was the first word processor to use a mouse, but I could > be wrong. After memorizing all the control functions in WordStar, > I stayed with it for quite a while, until WordPerfect came out. > I still won't use Word--WP is better, imho. I wish it were still > available for Linux. > > --doug > > -- > Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. > --A.M.Greeley > Actually Wordstar used control-J to access various functions. It was designed that way to eliminate the need to take your hands off the home row. If you were proficient with Wordstar and a touch typist, you were about 10-15% percent faster than someone using Word. Many newspaper reporters used it just for that reason. Microsoft hated the competition and so captured the control-J function (which happens to be a line feed.) This meant that the Windows systems would not run Wordstar. Wordstar also had WYSIWYG using these sequences to display the various superscript, and subscript and other characters, including the math characters and of course the nice 1/2 and 1/4 symbols as well. Wordstar came with Mailmerge and was a wonderful package for people doing newsletters or other mass mail programs. I hated that microsoft trapped the control J sequence and made it impossible to use Wordstar. The Wordstar team worked out a new interface, but just as they released it, Microsoft made another low level change to the windows interface that made the Wordstar team have to create yet another work around, missing the market window. And losing the ability to not have to use a mouse for the 80% composting task. Word was similar to another word processing program, but I can no longer remember its name. The spreadsheet was a purchase, which Microsoft "reengineered" and added some features and removed some to make it compatible with their GUI, and they also changed the storage style, which originally was all text based. I don't remember all the changes now. I used that original spreadsheet, It was called supercalc or something like that. Personally I wish Wordstar was still available, before the MOUSE ruined touch typing. But word processors are subject to the whims of taste. I also did some formal materials for marketing. I used a Macintosh with a simple text editor and a program called Ready, Set, Go which was a separate typesetting program, which included the ability to embed 3 to 6 layer color graphics with a WYSIWYG on a Macintosh, but that was in the 1987 time frame I think. The calendar application was similar to the calendar with events that was part of the Wordstar package as well, but Microsoft embedded theirs into Outlook about 1990 something. Wordstar was a full suite if you got all the options, and could do many things that Word didn't begin to accomplish until about 1995. The reason I brought this up is because wordprocessing has been around a very long time. Unix had some nice packages prior to 1984, and I used some of them while I was still in the Navy. But with the demise of Wordstar, I just gave up and started using the mouse. The mouse makes the job both faster to learn and much slower to use, but that seems to be the way of the world. We all have our preferences. Regards, Les H -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On 11/03/2013 02:06 PM, Upscope wrote: > On Saturday, November 02, 2013 12:46:43 PM Urmas wrote: >> "Les Howell": >> >> Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft >> Office? >> >> Microsoft mostly. >> /snip/ > Thats not totally correct if I remember right. Office started out as a > joint project between IBM and Microsoft for the original PC. There was a > differnet of directions and MS wnd IBM went there own ways. MS took a > lot of the joint developemt (Stole) with them. we used to use Wordstar > on or PC's. > > Russ > It wasn't originally MS Office, it was just MS Word. It ran on DOS, just like WordStar, but it had some basic word-processing functions listed at the bottom, and it worked with a mouse, if I recall, which WordStar did not. WordStar required a bunch of ctrl-x functions, where x was some keyboard letter. This was, I believe, derived from Teletype terminal days, where some k/b functions we expect, even some found on a typewriter, didn't exist. Functions on a modern k/b, like the up/down/left/right arrows were implemented by ctrl-x. Even backspace, which doesn't exist on a teletype machine--ctrl-h will do it. Even on a few programs today, but not T/Bird--I just tried! I think Word was the first word processor to use a mouse, but I could be wrong. After memorizing all the control functions in WordStar, I stayed with it for quite a while, until WordPerfect came out. I still won't use Word--WP is better, imho. I wish it were still available for Linux. --doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
With all of the posts in all of the threads, it is not unusual that things would get confusing. I only point out that I was not the source of the quote in the following email. At this point, I don't know who wrote it. Virgil -Original Message- From: James Knott Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 9:44 PM To: LibreOffice Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria Virgil Arrington wrote: StarOffice users are Linux users? . . . . I have never seen StarOffice available for Linux. StarOffice was a MS OS package not a Linux package, when it first came out, so StarOffice "audience" was a Windows "audience" and not Linux. Actually OOo, AOO, and LO may have its roots in StarOffice, but they are not StarOffice by any means. StarOffice was not from MS. It was originally written for CP/M on the Z80, by a guy who started StarDivision. I first came across it on OS/2. StarDivision was bought by Sun, who kept StarOffice as the commercial version of the open source OpenOffice. LibreOffice was created from OpenOffice, when Oracle, after buying Sun, couldn't decide what to do with StarOffice and OpenOffice. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On 11/2/2013 12:46 AM, Urmas wrote: "Les Howell": Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft Office? Microsoft mostly. BS!!! The only thing MS ever developed from scratch without stealing anything was "Bob". -- Dale Erwin Jr. 28 de Julio 657, Depto. 03 Magdalena del Mar, Lima 17 PERU http://leather.casaerwin.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Saturday, November 02, 2013 12:46:43 PM Urmas wrote: > "Les Howell": > > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > Office? > > Microsoft mostly. > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: > http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent > to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Thats not totally correct if I remember right. Office started out as a joint project between IBM and Microsoft for the original PC. There was a differnet of directions and MS wnd IBM went there own ways. MS took a lot of the joint developemt (Stole) with them. we used to use Wordstar on or PC's. Russ -- openSUSE 12.3(Linux 3.11.1-3.gfeffbf9-desktop)|KDE 4.11.2 |Intel core2duo 2.5 MHZ,|8GB DDR3|GeForce 8400GS (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-325.15 Patched) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Valter Mura wrote: > Seems to be the same story as Netscape vs. Internet Exploder... oops > Explorer... MS was also late to the game for the Internet. Apparenly BG didn't think much of it. IIRC, they bought another app to make IE. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 03:57:16 +0700 "Urmas" wrote: > "Jay Lozier": > > > They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best. > > You trying to be funny read some spam before now but that take the biscuit Pete . -- Linux 7-of-9 3.11.6-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Oct 18 23:22:36 CEST 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
In data sabato 2 novembre 2013 17:38:27, Jay Lozier ha scritto: > On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 15:20 -0400, James Knott wrote: > > Urmas wrote: > > > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > > > Office? > > > > > > Microsoft mostly. > > > > IIRC, they bought what became Excel and I believe Word too, from other > > companies. > > Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. > Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC > was released. How MS precisely entered the office productivity market is > less important than the fact there were other packages available at that > time. Basic text parsing has been done for a long time. > > Visi-Calc was the first spreadsheet and was available on the Apple II. > Dedicated word processors (Wang) were available. Seems to be the same story as Netscape vs. Internet Exploder... oops Explorer... -- Valter Open Source is better! LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org KDE: www.kde.org Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
In data sabato 2 novembre 2013 17:11:55, Fred James ha scritto: > Urmas wrote: > > "Jay Lozier": > >> Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. > > > > There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. > > > >> Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC > >> was released. > > > > They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best > > So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on > an LO list? We usually use this term: "debunkering" -- Valter Open Source is better! LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org KDE: www.kde.org Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
We all have had favorite packages for doing documentation over the years. I am an avid user for LO, but I remember the days before LO/OOo came out. I used different packages for different applications, and use MSO only when I had to. I use to use word processors that looked more like text editors. I really do not remember all of the packages I had tried over the years, but I did have copies of Works, WordPerfect, and MSO 95-2003. My first-favorite was PC-Write, where I helped create printer "drivers" for the package. Of course that was DOS days. Starting with Windows, I had to use WordPerfect and Word, depending on who the documents were for. But, with older, slower systems, the newer Word/MSO was getting too bulky and slow for ease of use. I was lucky that OOo just came out about then. Even with LO as my office suite, I still use Kate [Ubuntu Linux] for the text editor and Kompozer for WYSIWYG editing. I use NoteTab and/or NotePad ++ in the Windows systems, when I need a text editor instead of a word processor. I do not need to use LaTeX or similar options, but if I did then I would either add an extension to LO to do it or find an editor dedicated for that type or work. I am of the school of "what ever way is easiest for me/you is the best way for me/you". I use Writer to make signs, that are not complex enough to need Corel Draw, Inkscape, or Draw. Actually, sometimes I power up a Windows boot on my laptop to run a package or two there that are easier and faster to use than anything I have on my Linux system [my main/default desktop is Ubuntu 12.04 with 6 TB of drive space]. Then, once I have done the work, I move it over to my Linux desktop for farther processing and/or storage. Of course, I have LO on all my Linux and Windows systems [both single or dual booting systems] On 11/02/2013 05:57 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote: > I don't want to speak for Urmas, or necessarily defend him, but I use > many programs in addition to LO for my work, and in many respects I > prefer other options over LO. I've often spoken of the Atlantis Word > Processor, a very small Word clone that I keep going back to for its > simplicity, speed and stability. And, aside from creating tables, it > does all I need in word processing (and has the best built-in Epub > converter that I've seen in any word processor). I've also been > playing recently with markdown editors like WriteMonkey and ReText. I > like typing a plain text file and having it formatted by a separate > CSS file. There's a simplicity about it that is quite enjoyable. I've > used LaTeX and LyX on occasion. And, my job requires me to use (and > teach) Microsoft Office. I even have an old version of WordPerfect on > my system for those rare times I need to read its files from colleagues. > > So, why am I here on this list? I still use LO for those tasks that > can't be accomplished by my other simpler tools. When I need tables, I > use LO Writer. Also, I use Calc and Presentation and Base for many > tasks, none of which are supported in the dedicated editors that I > tend to prefer over LO. > > LO is the digital equivalent of my minivan. It does everything, but > often isn't very fun, precisely because of its relative complexity. > Atlantis is my sports car; small, light and fun, but not very > practical when I need to haul a sheet of plywood. > > So, I stay on this list to keep learning about the program, and I've > learned plenty from y'all. > > I hope that blind devotion to LO over all other computing tools > doesn't become a prerequisite for discussing its relative merits and > failings on this list. Last I saw, this is a *user's* list, not > necessarily a *cheerleader's* list. > > Virgil > > > -----Original Message----- From: Fred James > Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 5:11 PM > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: > [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office > gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria > > Urmas wrote: >> "Jay Lozier": >> >>> Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. >> >> There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. >> >>> Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC >>> was released. >> >> They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best > So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on > an LO list? > Regards > Fred James > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
James Knott wrote: > I used to use PC-Write on DOS many years ago. IIRC, the same company > had a spreadsheet and database available. Of course, if we don't limit > ourselves to PCs, the mainframe and minicomputer world had "office" > software long before there was such a thing as a PC. Forgot to include the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staroffice -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
baldwin linguas wrote: > I can remember writing college papers with Clarisworks. > And there was Wordperfect from Corel. > Although, I'm uncertain whether these were before or after MSOffice. > I saw them both before I ever heard of MSOffice, though. > > Let's see...Clarisworks was released 1984. > StarOffice (Sun) was released in 1985. > Lotus 1 2 3 was released in 1983, but apparently Lotus Notes wasn't until > 1989. > Wordperfect for DOS was released in 1989. > > And MSOffice was released in 1991. > > Of course, neither Staroffice (Sun), Lotus (IBM) nor Wordperfect > (Corel), had a full suite, initially, > as far as I am aware, but Clarisworks/Appleworks did, well before MSOffice. > OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, of course, are both children of the > old StarOffice. I used to use PC-Write on DOS many years ago. IIRC, the same company had a spreadsheet and database available. Of course, if we don't limit ourselves to PCs, the mainframe and minicomputer world had "office" software long before there was such a thing as a PC. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Virgil Arrington wrote: > StarOffice users are Linux users? . . . . > I have never seen StarOffice available for Linux. StarOffice was a MS > OS package not a Linux package, when it first came out, so StarOffice > "audience" was a Windows "audience" and not Linux. Actually OOo, AOO, > and LO may have its roots in StarOffice, but they are not StarOffice by > any means. StarOffice was not from MS. It was originally written for CP/M on the Z80, by a guy who started StarDivision. I first came across it on OS/2. StarDivision was bought by Sun, who kept StarOffice as the commercial version of the open source OpenOffice. LibreOffice was created from OpenOffice, when Oracle, after buying Sun, couldn't decide what to do with StarOffice and OpenOffice. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Virgil Arrington wrote: (omissions for brevity) Last I saw, this is a *user's* list, not necessarily a *cheerleader's* list. Virgil (omissions for brevity) So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on an LO list? Regards Fred James Neither a booster or a trasher, am I. I am on this list to learn, full stop. Religious wars still annoy me ... I shall have to work on that. Regards Fred James -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Fred James wrote: > Urmas wrote: >> >> "Jay Lozier": >> >>> Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. >> >> >> There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. >> >>> Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC >>> was released. >> I can remember writing college papers with Clarisworks. And there was Wordperfect from Corel. Although, I'm uncertain whether these were before or after MSOffice. I saw them both before I ever heard of MSOffice, though. Let's see...Clarisworks was released 1984. StarOffice (Sun) was released in 1985. Lotus 1 2 3 was released in 1983, but apparently Lotus Notes wasn't until 1989. Wordperfect for DOS was released in 1989. And MSOffice was released in 1991. Of course, neither Staroffice (Sun), Lotus (IBM) nor Wordperfect (Corel), had a full suite, initially, as far as I am aware, but Clarisworks/Appleworks did, well before MSOffice. OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, of course, are both children of the old StarOffice. Tony -- http://www.baldwinlinguas.com translations, interpreting, localization and multilingual web design EN, ES, FR, PT -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
I'm a strong proponents of Styles, and I teach them to my university students and insist that they use them in term papers for my class. But, I agree, they can get in the way when documents are shared among different collaborators. I have often shared documents with others. While I was using styles, my colleagues were not, so we often had a struggle to find some common formatting ground. Virgil -Original Message- From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 10:24 AM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria On 11/02/2013 08:36 AM, Urmas wrote: "Kracked_P_P---webmaster": 90% of the businesses users I know of use less than 10% of the features and functions that MSO has. BTW, you know what one can do with Word 2.0 but not with StarOffice-rebranded-for-a-third-time? Creating section templates, a rough analog of section styles. Because the most of StarOffice audience are whitespace-formatting Linux users, that feature never came into the light. StarOffice users are Linux users? . . . . I have never seen StarOffice available for Linux. StarOffice was a MS OS package not a Linux package, when it first came out, so StarOffice "audience" was a Windows "audience" and not Linux. Actually OOo, AOO, and LO may have its roots in StarOffice, but they are not StarOffice by any means. "whitespace-formatting Linux users"? Never heard of a Linux distro called "whitespace-formatting". It seems that you are implying that Linux users are some sort of "creature" to be kept away from a modern office environment, or at least one that creates documentation for a company. I do not know about you, but people who write documents for a living tend to have their favorite word processing package. I know one, Piers Anthony, that uses Linux and LO for many reasons, but one of the biggest is the ability to use custom keyboards for the OS and Macros for the word processing package. This author, when a little younger, produced 4 to 6 paper-back books a year, plus some co-authoring ones. Now that he is about 80, he is producing only 2 to 4 books a year. He has stated, in print, that he needed Linux and various non-MSO packages to do his work. As for Linux. . . . I have been using Ubuntu Linux for my default system since Spring of 2010, and use Windows only when the hardware or software must run on a Windows system. Every Windows system I use is also dual booting with Ubuntu. Well all but one. That one is a half broken laptop that I use as a loaner Windows system. I know that some people like "styles" and would not go with out them, but I do not use them and they are the bane of my "fixing" other people's documentation. I get people who want me to "fix" some parts of a document that others made for them and half the time the "styles' get in the way of the editing and fixing. Sure "style" can help, but they also can "hurt" if the style's creator goes in for "the more complex the better" idea of thinking. K.I.S.S. [keep it simple stupid] is still an idea that both documentation writers and "code writers" should take to heart. The more complex things are, the harder to fix, edit, understand, modify, etc., etc.. You do not need styles, but if you use styles, keep them simple. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
I don't want to speak for Urmas, or necessarily defend him, but I use many programs in addition to LO for my work, and in many respects I prefer other options over LO. I've often spoken of the Atlantis Word Processor, a very small Word clone that I keep going back to for its simplicity, speed and stability. And, aside from creating tables, it does all I need in word processing (and has the best built-in Epub converter that I've seen in any word processor). I've also been playing recently with markdown editors like WriteMonkey and ReText. I like typing a plain text file and having it formatted by a separate CSS file. There's a simplicity about it that is quite enjoyable. I've used LaTeX and LyX on occasion. And, my job requires me to use (and teach) Microsoft Office. I even have an old version of WordPerfect on my system for those rare times I need to read its files from colleagues. So, why am I here on this list? I still use LO for those tasks that can't be accomplished by my other simpler tools. When I need tables, I use LO Writer. Also, I use Calc and Presentation and Base for many tasks, none of which are supported in the dedicated editors that I tend to prefer over LO. LO is the digital equivalent of my minivan. It does everything, but often isn't very fun, precisely because of its relative complexity. Atlantis is my sports car; small, light and fun, but not very practical when I need to haul a sheet of plywood. So, I stay on this list to keep learning about the program, and I've learned plenty from y'all. I hope that blind devotion to LO over all other computing tools doesn't become a prerequisite for discussing its relative merits and failings on this list. Last I saw, this is a *user's* list, not necessarily a *cheerleader's* list. Virgil -Original Message- From: Fred James Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 5:11 PM To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria Urmas wrote: "Jay Lozier": Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC was released. They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on an LO list? Regards Fred James -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On 11/2/2013 4:57 PM, Urmas wrote: "Jay Lozier": Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC was released. They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best. I disagree. WordPerfect is better! --doug -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 17:11 -0400, Fred James wrote: > Urmas wrote: > > "Jay Lozier": > > > >> Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. > > > > There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. > > > >> Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC > >> was released. > > > > They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best > So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on > an LO list? > Regards > Fred James > > + 1 -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Urmas wrote: "Jay Lozier": Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. There were no 'office packages' before Microsoft Office. Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC was released. They didn't design the first, but they have designed the best So tell me, Urmas, if you find MSO to be the best, why are your here on an LO list? Regards Fred James -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 15:20 -0400, James Knott wrote: > Urmas wrote: > > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > > Office? > > > > Microsoft mostly. > > IIRC, they bought what became Excel and I believe Word too, from other > companies. > Microsoft did not develop the first office productivity packages. Several predated any MS offerings and were available before the IBM-PC was released. How MS precisely entered the office productivity market is less important than the fact there were other packages available at that time. Basic text parsing has been done for a long time. Visi-Calc was the first spreadsheet and was available on the Apple II. Dedicated word processors (Wang) were available. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Urmas wrote: > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > Office? > > Microsoft mostly. IIRC, they bought what became Excel and I believe Word too, from other companies. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On 11/02/2013 08:36 AM, Urmas wrote: > "Kracked_P_P---webmaster": > > 90% of the businesses users I know of use less than 10% of the features > and functions that MSO has. > > BTW, you know what one can do with Word 2.0 but not with > StarOffice-rebranded-for-a-third-time? Creating section templates, a > rough analog of section styles. Because the most of StarOffice > audience are whitespace-formatting Linux users, that feature never > came into the light. > > > StarOffice users are Linux users? . . . . I have never seen StarOffice available for Linux. StarOffice was a MS OS package not a Linux package, when it first came out, so StarOffice "audience" was a Windows "audience" and not Linux. Actually OOo, AOO, and LO may have its roots in StarOffice, but they are not StarOffice by any means. "whitespace-formatting Linux users"? Never heard of a Linux distro called "whitespace-formatting". It seems that you are implying that Linux users are some sort of "creature" to be kept away from a modern office environment, or at least one that creates documentation for a company. I do not know about you, but people who write documents for a living tend to have their favorite word processing package. I know one, Piers Anthony, that uses Linux and LO for many reasons, but one of the biggest is the ability to use custom keyboards for the OS and Macros for the word processing package. This author, when a little younger, produced 4 to 6 paper-back books a year, plus some co-authoring ones. Now that he is about 80, he is producing only 2 to 4 books a year. He has stated, in print, that he needed Linux and various non-MSO packages to do his work. As for Linux. . . . I have been using Ubuntu Linux for my default system since Spring of 2010, and use Windows only when the hardware or software must run on a Windows system. Every Windows system I use is also dual booting with Ubuntu. Well all but one. That one is a half broken laptop that I use as a loaner Windows system. I know that some people like "styles" and would not go with out them, but I do not use them and they are the bane of my "fixing" other people's documentation. I get people who want me to "fix" some parts of a document that others made for them and half the time the "styles' get in the way of the editing and fixing. Sure "style" can help, but they also can "hurt" if the style's creator goes in for "the more complex the better" idea of thinking. K.I.S.S. [keep it simple stupid] is still an idea that both documentation writers and "code writers" should take to heart. The more complex things are, the harder to fix, edit, understand, modify, etc., etc.. You do not need styles, but if you use styles, keep them simple. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
"Kracked_P_P---webmaster": 90% of the businesses users I know of use less than 10% of the features and functions that MSO has. BTW, you know what one can do with Word 2.0 but not with StarOffice-rebranded-for-a-third-time? Creating section templates, a rough analog of section styles. Because the most of StarOffice audience are whitespace-formatting Linux users, that feature never came into the light. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
"Kracked_P_P---webmaster": MS was the bigest copycats there was back in the early days. They "stole" from any package that could get away with. I was working in the computer field when Apple came out with the first Mac, and then many of those ideas were used to make the first Windows OS. It is improbable considering the Mac appearing in 1984, and Windows, with the same GUI architecture as today, appearing in 1985. There was no chance they could adapt the entire GUI in year or so. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote: > I was working in the computer field when Apple came out with the first > Mac, and then many of those ideas were used to make the first Windows > OS. Actually, Apple borrowed those ideas from Xerox. This is one reason why they lost the lawsuit against MS. Please do not assume I'm a fan of MS, as I consider them to be very destructive, but I like to see the facts stated correctly. > Actually MS stole the mouse tech from Apple, and Apple stole it from > Zerox [if I remember correctly]. The mouse was invented by Douglas Engelbart at Stanford. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On 11/01/2013 08:23 PM, Les Howell wrote: > On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 23:01 +0700, Urmas wrote: >> And that is great, as Microsoft Office is designed not by copycats, but for >> people who actually know what the Office is for. >> > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft > Office? > > Regards, > Les H MS was the bigest copycats there was back in the early days. They "stole" from any package that could get away with. If they could not steal it, they bought the copywrites behind it and then others had to stop using "their technology". I was working in the computer field when Apple came out with the first Mac, and then many of those ideas were used to make the first Windows OS. There were a lot of different office packages out there before MSO came out, or even before MS Works came out. I know, I used them on floppy/DOS based system as well as on mini/mainframe systems. DEC has a very popular office package that was mostly a word processor, before MSO was out. Now, MS just buys patents, and companies, to get the technology they need and then sues every one else for patent infrigment if they use anything that looks like it is any way near their patented tech, but if they use some other company's patents they will fight till the other company drains their bank accounts and then go in for the kill. When they are big enough to pay court fees and fines out of their "petty cash fund", they can steal anything they want to and get away with it since no other company, of government can afford to go head-to-toe with MS in a court battle, since every one else cannot spend like MS can for court costs. Now there are some good things about MS, there has to be somewhere, but I do not know of any off the top of my head. Actually MS stole the mouse tech from Apple, and Apple stole it from Zerox [if I remember correctly]. -- "know what the office is for"? Who's office? The small business user, the mid-level businesses, the enterprise level businesses? Not my home office [now and in the past] I dumped MSO as soon as there was a good option that still read/wrote MSO file formats. The last MSO I used was 2003, and I fealt it was "bloated" and a waste of money as it was. 90% of the businesses users I know of use less than 10% of the features and functions that MSO has. MS proudly announced, once, that between one version of MSO to the next one they added over 1,000 new features. Well I bet that the users of the previous version of MSO could use very few on them, unless they were really high end users that need to read complex manuals to figure out how to get even a third of the new features to work, even if they could not use hardly any of them in their business. Look at the Win8 blunder. Then tell me that MS knows what offices and businesses want and need? Businesses panned it in droves. But, MS kept hyping that this is the OS you have been waiting for. I really wonder when it was, the last time that the developers of MSO or MS Windows actually go together with a large diversity of users, business and otherwise, and a large number of them, over 10,000, to ask what you like and not like about their current project [in a blind survey] and what is needed for the next version. It seems that MS feels that "if we make it for you, you will buy it and love it". It feels like they no longer ask users what is wanted or needed. If MS would have looked at the Linux market, Ubuntu was the top Linux distro till they came up with the "tile" based Unity desktop environment. Users left Ubuntu in droves and Linux Mint, with the older style of desktop, became the top distro [for non server users]. Also, no one wanted MS's tile based phones, so MS decided to make phones, tablets, laptops, and desktop, use a tile based desktop environment. They removed the "Start Button" and was "forced" to put it back in Win 8.1, because users voted with the pockets and panned Win8 and kept using or buying Win7. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [pt-br-usuarios] Estudantes da rede estadual de SP terão Office gratuito para até 5 PCs após parceria
On Fri, 2013-11-01 at 23:01 +0700, Urmas wrote: > And that is great, as Microsoft Office is designed not by copycats, but for > people who actually know what the Office is for. > Just a simple question, Do you know who originally designed Microsoft Office? Regards, Les H -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
