Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Craig White]

On Sat, 2013-04-20 at 22:24 +, Bill Oliver wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Craig White wrote:
> 
> >
> > Scientific Linux takes all sorts of liberties with build options and
> > even their build system doesn't attempt to produce compatible binary
> > packages - not that I am suggesting that it's a bad thing - just a
> > completely different philosophy than CentOS.
> > Craig
> >
> 
> My impression was that Scientific Linux was essentially an "in-house" 
> enterprise linux derived from Red Hat that was built to fit the needs of a 
> consortium of universities that collaborated a lot -- and thus needed a 
> consistent infrastructure.  While the community at large was welcome to use 
> it, it wasn't built with the general linux community in mind, nor was it 
> built for our convenience.  CentOS *is* developed with the general linux 
> community as the target customer.  But I could be wrong.

that strikes me as a reasonable assessment.

> 
> But that leads to an interesting question, since both of these are done by 
> compiling the RHEL SRPMs.  Has anybody actually tried compiling RHEL from the 
> source on their boxes?  Is it hard, or just tedious?  I tried doing the linux 
> from scratch thing a couple of years ago just for giggles.  I got it up and 
> running, but decided the hassle wasn't worth it, and it didn't really run 
> noticeably faster.  All this stuff I had read about how a distro compiled and 
> tailored to the box it was to run on would be blindingly faster didn't seem 
> to pan out.  It might have been a *little* faster, but not so's I noticed 
> when it came to subjective interaction.  I guess when you are running KDE 
> with all the eyecandy, blinding speed isn't first priority anyway.  I'll 
> sacrifice a millisecond here or there for the cool rotating cube and wobbly 
> windows.

If you want a distribution that builds optimized packages for your
system only, Gentoo is your answer.

If you want to play with building your own disribution from RHEL SRPMs,
then check out the CentOS Wiki which does have some information on that
but recognize that it is a rather daunting prospect.

Craig


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Craig White wrote:



Scientific Linux takes all sorts of liberties with build options and
even their build system doesn't attempt to produce compatible binary
packages - not that I am suggesting that it's a bad thing - just a
completely different philosophy than CentOS.
Craig



My impression was that Scientific Linux was essentially an "in-house" 
enterprise linux derived from Red Hat that was built to fit the needs of a consortium of 
universities that collaborated a lot -- and thus needed a consistent infrastructure.  
While the community at large was welcome to use it, it wasn't built with the general 
linux community in mind, nor was it built for our convenience.  CentOS *is* developed 
with the general linux community as the target customer.  But I could be wrong.


But that leads to an interesting question, since both of these are done by 
compiling the RHEL SRPMs.  Has anybody actually tried compiling RHEL from the 
source on their boxes?  Is it hard, or just tedious?  I tried doing the linux 
from scratch thing a couple of years ago just for giggles.  I got it up and 
running, but decided the hassle wasn't worth it, and it didn't really run 
noticeably faster.  All this stuff I had read about how a distro compiled and 
tailored to the box it was to run on would be blindingly faster didn't seem to 
pan out.  It might have been a *little* faster, but not so's I noticed when it 
came to subjective interaction.  I guess when you are running KDE with all the 
eyecandy, blinding speed isn't first priority anyway.  I'll sacrifice a 
millisecond here or there for the cool rotating cube and wobbly windows.

billo
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[John Pilkington]

On 20/04/13 19:49, Craig White wrote:

On Thu, 2013-04-18 at 23:15 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:16 PM, g  wrote:

 On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
 Hi
 <>

 Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd
 party repos should
 be compatible with either


 centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and
 adds a lot of
 their own crud.


No.  They don't.


as I said - he is highly uninformed. Rather unsurprisingly, he got it
completely backwards though I wouldn't suggest that Scientific Linux
adds chop and crud.

CentOS is essentially the cleanest, closest rebuild of RHEL that is
possible - as they say, bug for bug. They do have a CentOS Plus
repository which does have different build options but it is disabled by
default so you have to want the changes to get them.

Scientific Linux takes all sorts of liberties with build options and
even their build system doesn't attempt to produce compatible binary
packages - not that I am suggesting that it's a bad thing - just a
completely different philosophy than CentOS.



Craig



I was interested to hear that; the emphasis of the two distros hasn't 
been clear to me, but I would guess that SL is primarily aimed at an 
environment where results matter and well-qualified support staff are 
available.  That would make it good for purpose, but not necessarily for 
grannies - which is, ISTR, where this all started.


John  P


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2013-04-18 at 23:15 -0400, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:16 PM, g  wrote:
> 
> On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
> <>
> 
> Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd
> party repos should
> be compatible with either
> 
> 
> centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and
> adds a lot of
> their own crud.
> 
> 
> No.  They don't.  

as I said - he is highly uninformed. Rather unsurprisingly, he got it
completely backwards though I wouldn't suggest that Scientific Linux
adds chop and crud. 

CentOS is essentially the cleanest, closest rebuild of RHEL that is
possible - as they say, bug for bug. They do have a CentOS Plus
repository which does have different build options but it is disabled by
default so you have to want the changes to get them.

Scientific Linux takes all sorts of liberties with build options and
even their build system doesn't attempt to produce compatible binary
packages - not that I am suggesting that it's a bad thing - just a
completely different philosophy than CentOS.
> 
Craig


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[staticsafe]

On 4/19/2013 10:27, g wrote:
> 
> On 04/19/2013 09:05 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> <>
> 
>> maybe you should not trust everything some random people
>> writes and blindly repeat it instead use official sources
> 
> it is not a matter of just 'some random people' writing.
> 
> thanks to effects of going thru chemotherapy, my recall is not as good as
> it used to be.
> 
> therefore, when i run across said 'writes' of said people, i will post
> said 'writes' and include you in address.
> 
>> http://www.centos.org/
>> CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy
>> and
>> aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to
>> remove
>> upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.
> 
> well, KAFBA.
> 
> are you so naïf to believe that centos would publish such?
> 

Why the hell would CentOS lie about such a thing? What incentive do they
have?

Please take your FUD elsewhere.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 20.04.2013 00:47, schrieb David Beveridge:
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Reindl Harald  
> wrote:
>> http://www.centos.org/
>> CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy and
>> aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to remove
>> upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.
>>
> see
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Controversy-surrounds-Red-Hat-s-obfuscated-source-code-release-1200554.html
> 
> Controversy surrounds Red Hat's "obfuscated" source code release
> This change, noted by Maxillian Attems andLWN.net, appears to be aimed
> at Oracle, who like others, repackage Red Hat's source as the basis
> for its Unbreakable Linux

and how does this affect any of what i said above or
confirm the FUD from this thread?

the opposite is true, CentOS is NOT able to change ANYTHING
in the kernel of the 1:1 rebuild

* CentOS is rebuilding the src.rpms of RHEL
* the kernel src.rpm is public





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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 6:47 PM, David Beveridge  wrote:

> see
>
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Controversy-surrounds-Red-Hat-s-obfuscated-source-code-release-1200554.html
>
> Controversy surrounds Red Hat's "obfuscated" source code release
> This change, noted by Maxillian Attems andLWN.net, appears to be aimed
> at Oracle, who like others, repackage Red Hat's source as the basis
> for its Unbreakable Linux.
>

Yes, this was aimed at Oracle but doesn't affect CentOS since CentOS merely
rebuilds the SRPM and doesn't fiddle with kernel patches

Rahul
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David Beveridge]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
> http://www.centos.org/
> CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy and
> aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to remove
> upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.
>
see
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Controversy-surrounds-Red-Hat-s-obfuscated-source-code-release-1200554.html

Controversy surrounds Red Hat's "obfuscated" source code release
This change, noted by Maxillian Attems andLWN.net, appears to be aimed
at Oracle, who like others, repackage Red Hat's source as the basis
for its Unbreakable Linux.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 4:10 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:

>
>
> Am 19.04.2013 04:16, schrieb g:
> > On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> >> Hi
> > <>
> >
> >> Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos
> should
> >> be compatible with either
> >
> > centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
> > their own crud.
>
> please inform you before you spread FUD
> they only replace logos etc. with Redhat copyeights
>

As an additional clarification:

Red Hat has copyright on a lot of things but provides permissions under
free and open source licenses.  Copyright by itself isn't a problem when
using such licenses.  However trademarks are, since they have to be more
tightly controlled by the trademark owner.  So rebuilds replace the logos
etc that Red Hat has trademark over and Red Hat has made it pretty easy to
do so.  All you have to do is replace the redhat-logos package.

Rahul
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Matthew J. Roth]

g wrote:
>
> are you so naïf to believe that centos would publish such?

g,

Let it go.  You're wrong and you're doing nothing but harm by spreading
misinformation that you can't even provide a source for.

I don't like to call people out publicly, but people rely on these lists to make
important decisions so posts like yours need to be corrected.

Regards,

Matthew Roth
InterMedia Marketing Solutions
Software Engineer and Systems Developer
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.04.2013 16:27, schrieb g:
>> http://www.centos.org/
>> CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy and
>> aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to remove
>> upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.
> 
> well, KAFBA.
> 
> are you so naïf to believe that centos would publish such?

are YOU so NAIVE that this could not be verified because
the CentOS source-rpms are public as well the RHEL ones?

http://vault.centos.org/6.4/os/Source/SPackages/



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/19/2013 09:05 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
<>


maybe you should not trust everything some random people
writes and blindly repeat it instead use official sources


it is not a matter of just 'some random people' writing.

thanks to effects of going thru chemotherapy, my recall is not as good as
it used to be.

therefore, when i run across said 'writes' of said people, i will post
said 'writes' and include you in address.


http://www.centos.org/
CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy and
aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to remove
upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.


well, KAFBA.

are you so naïf to believe that centos would publish such?

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.04.2013 15:57, schrieb g:
> On 04/19/2013 03:10 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 19.04.2013 04:16, schrieb g:
>>> On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
 Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
 be compatible with either
>>>
>>> centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
>>> their own crud.
>>
>> please inform you before you spread FUD
>> they only replace logos etc. with Redhat copyeights
> 
> please inform you that you have not been reading where i have. had i not
> read such, i would not have posted such.

maybe you should not trust everything some random people
writes and blindly repeat it instead use official sources

http://www.centos.org/
CentOS conforms fully with the upstream vendor's redistribution policy and
aims to be 100% binary compatible. (CentOS mainly changes packages to remove
upstream vendor branding and artwork.)  CentOS is free.

> not to knock you use of english language, as you do fairly well, but you
> do have a problem with fingers hitting wrong keys, therefore, please to
> inform you, thunderbird does have a spelling checker

so what..



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/19/2013 03:10 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:



Am 19.04.2013 04:16, schrieb g:

On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi

<>


Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
be compatible with either


centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
their own crud.


please inform you before you spread FUD
they only replace logos etc. with Redhat copyeights


please inform you that you have not been reading where i have. had i not
read such, i would not have posted such.

not to knock you use of english language, as you do fairly well, but you
do have a problem with fingers hitting wrong keys, therefore, please to
inform you, thunderbird does have a spelling checker.

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.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 19.04.2013 04:16, schrieb g:
> On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> Hi
> <>
> 
>> Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
>> be compatible with either
> 
> centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
> their own crud.

please inform you before you spread FUD
they only replace logos etc. with Redhat copyeights



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David Beveridge]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:16 PM, g  wrote:
>> On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
>> their own crud.
>
> No.  They don't.
>

When our redhat contract ran out we did this

echo Converting an x86_64 box from Redhat 6.2 to Centos 6.2
echo These instructions are very specific to version 6.2 (64 bit) and
need to be modified accordingly for other releases.
yum clean all
mkdir ~/centos
cd ~/centos
wget http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/centos/6.2/os/x86_64/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-6
wget 
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/centos/6.2/os/x86_64/Packages/centos-release-6-2.el6.centos.7.x86_64.rpm
wget 
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/centos/6.2/os/x86_64/Packages/yum-3.2.29-22.el6.centos.noarch.rpm
wget 
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/centos/6.2/os/x86_64/Packages/yum-utils-1.1.30-10.el6.noarch.rpm
wget 
http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/centos/6.2/os/x86_64/Packages/yum-plugin-fastestmirror-1.1.30-10.el6.noarch.rpm
rpm --import RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-6
rpm -e --nodeps redhat-release-server
rpm -e yum-rhn-plugin rhn-check rhnsd rhn-setup
rpm -e rhn-setup-gnome
rpm -e subscription-manager
rpm -Uhv --force *.rpm
yum upgrade


Then reboot..
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/18/2013 10:15 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi


no. i am straight right now. ;-)


No.  They don't.


what ever. i am just going by what i have read elsewhere.

personally, i tried centos before i went with scientific linux.

i have been using sl for around 6 yrs now and i am very happy
with it.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:16 PM, g  wrote:

>
> On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
> <>
>
>  Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
>> be compatible with either
>>
>
> centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
> their own crud.
>

No.  They don't.

Rahul
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/18/2013 07:26 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Hi

<>


Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
be compatible with either


centos does a lot of chop and remove from rhel package and adds a lot of
their own crud.

as for 3rd party repos, same for either. or so it was at one time.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

>
> I think CentOS is the right choice, because of the packagers ecosystem. I
> dont find many 3rd party packagers for SL.


Since both CentOS and SL are rebuilds of RHEL. the 3rd party repos should
be compatible with either

Rahul
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Mihamina Rakotomandimby]

On 2013-04-18 08:51, g wrote:

i have been using the fnal release, 1st in list, for about years, just
after the release of sl 5.0, and i can say that it has been a very stable
and reliable linux.


What is your use case?

I mean: I use CentOS 5 & 6 for Web developpers usage.

We have to use custom compiled PHP 5.2, PHP 5.3, and several Java 
related compenents (Tomcat, Maven, Ant, Sonar, Jenkins,...)


Besides, we also need to install custom compiled "ffmpeg" (ie with 
defined video transcode option). For the PHP side, we have IUS and many 
other 3rd party repos).


I think CentOS is the right choice, because of the packagers ecosystem. 
I dont find many 3rd party packagers for SL.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/12/2013 11:04 AM, Mike Dwiggins wrote:
<<>>


One outstanding suggestion that came up in this discussion was
Scientific Linux  as the "Supported by CERN" could be a powerful selling
point.  That post had me doing the classic head thump D'Oh! I had
forgotten about that release!

Female involved in the decision chain has great respect and admiration
for the work of CERN and their web page shows no hint of their relation
to CentOS!  That is a stable platform that I am certain I can get
accepted.  Boss taking a long weekend so I have plenty of time to work
up the presentation.


true, the scientific linux released by cern is a rhel clone, and a good one.

please be aware tho, that it is more customized that the scientific linux
released by fnal, ie, argon national labs out side of chicago, il.

check these links to find out more;

  https://www.scientificlinux.org/
  https://www.scientificlinux.org/documentation/
  http://www.scientificlinux.org/news/
  http://fermilinux.fnal.gov/documentation/
  http://linux.web.cern.ch/linux/docs/

i have been using the fnal release, 1st in list, for about years, just
after the release of sl 5.0, and i can say that it has been a very stable
and reliable linux.

they have regular upgrade releases and security updates that usually follow
within 24 hrs of what is released by rhel. i am aware of this because i
subscribe to the list from rhsa-annou...@redhat.com, so i can get a full
picture of what is happening.

also, they recently extended the eol to 10 yrs.

if you do decide to go with the fnal release, i would say that you are
making a good choice, and much better than using centos.

the support list is very good and there are at least 3 fnal maintainers
that are regularly following and replying to the list. the rest of the
support repliers are also very much familiar with sl. so, you should
have very little trouble correcting any problems you might run into.
if you should have any.

over the past 6 years of using scientific linux, i have recommend it to
many friends and clients, guessing to be well over 50. i had some clients
that could not convert because of special software they used in their
business. the others were able to move their data into similar linux
software.

of the friends who i have converted, there are only 2 who went back to oos.
one because he had special programs that had no equivalent, other was
because he was too lazy to learn a little bit about how to administer his
system. he did admit to liking linux, but just did not care to learn a
new os.

this is all my opinion about linux and scientific linux, but it is based
on what i have learned. cromix, a clone of bsd, was my first multi system,
so i had little problems picking up on the difference of linux.

from what i have read in your post, i doubt that you will have much trouble
moving to linux and administering it.

as for 'selling it', what has your boss got to worry about if she has you
and you fully back up your current os before changing? ;-)

much luck to you.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[inode0]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Craig White  wrote:
> Scientific Linux has paid staff to build packages whereas CentOS is
> strictly unpaid/volunteer packagers.

I think that changed last year.

http://centosnow.blogspot.com/2012/06/centos-project-release-times.html

John
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 09:04 -0700, Mike Dwiggins wrote:

> Excellent summation Tim!  As I said my problem was not what I wanted but 
> what I could "Sell" to the Boss.
> 
> One outstanding suggestion that came up in this discussion was 
> Scientific Linux  as the "Supported by CERN" could be a powerful selling 
> point.  That post had me doing the classic head thump D'Oh! I had 
> forgotten about that release!
> 
> Female involved in the decision chain has great respect and admiration 
> for the work of CERN and their web page shows no hint of their relation 
> to CentOS!  That is a stable platform that I am certain I can get 
> accepted.  Boss taking a long weekend so I have plenty of time to work 
> up the presentation.

Connie is well respected by the Linux community but the fact that she is
female means absolutely nothing and I cringed at the reference as it
completely doesn't matter.

There are some distinctive differences between the philosophies of
CentOS and Scientific Linux and you probably should take some time to
educate yourself on them as they do matter. 

CentOS tries to build all packages as closely as possible to RHEL -
essentially striving for total binary compatibility which means not
fixing bugs that are known to exist in RHEL but they do report the bugs
to Red Hat.

Scientific does not try to achieve binary compatibility and in fact
makes conscious choices of changes - sometimes different compiling
options for packages - fixing known bugs with their own developed code,
etc.

Scientific Linux has shorter support windows than RHEL or CentOS which
may be significant too.

Scientific Linux has paid staff to build packages whereas CentOS is
strictly unpaid/volunteer packagers.

They all exist to scratch a different itch. There are differences.

Craig


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Paul W. Frields]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 03:44:41PM -0500, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
> Joe Zeff wrote:
> > On 04/16/2013 12:57 PM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
> > > To be fair to Bill, your original analogy equating a subscription to RHN 
> > > to
> > > homeowner's insurance is false.  He did the best he could with what you 
> > > gave him
> > > to work with.
> > 
> > I see what you mean.  Would having a plumber or electrician on a 
> > retainer in case you ever needed them be closer?
> 
> I'd say a subscription to RHN is closer to a home warranty.  It may come in
> handy if you need it, but there are many ways to void its coverage and if you
> don't need it then it's wasted money.

I like it!

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Davidsen]

David wrote:

On 4/13/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 04/13/2013 03:07 PM, David wrote:

I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might
work".



Yes.  I know.  However, there's always a few grains of wheat mixed in
with the chaff; the trick is to figure out which suggestions to follow.
  Generally, however, I've found that for somebody like me who knows
something about Linux and just needs distro-specific advice, that's not
too hard.


Here you will see the latest usage numbers.

"OS Platform Statistics and Trends"




Interesting, and roughly twice what the Linux Counter suggests:
http://linuxcounter.net/guessing.html

My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.



I really *do not know* exactly what the usage number means. But I do
'know' that - or think that putting 'grandma' over to Linux, IMHO, would
not be a good idea.  :-)

Actually, that's a good population, they want to do simple things, generally not 
play games, do course assignments, and such. For browsing, mail, etc, it's easy 
to use, stable, and more secure than Windows. And you can have the system do 
network backup without telling them, a big bonus.


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the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Davidsen]

Mike Dwiggins wrote:


On 4/12/2013 7:03 AM, Tim wrote:

On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 13:24 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

I would agree that in a corporate environment, Fedora release cycle is
too often. I personnally run Fedora on my work laptop, but if I were
to administer the whole ~150 desktops of the company I wont use Fedora
but CentOS.

I tend to agree.  However, if you're a place that's gotten used to
having to regularly wipe and install Windows boxes, as many will do,
then it's possible that having to restart with a newer version of Fedora
once or twice a year may be just as palatable.  But I'd definitely put
servers on a long term OS, like CentOS, even if the clients use Fedora
and are considered disposable machines.  Though it can be easier to
manage a system where they all run the same OS, so CentOS on them might
be simplest.  And with a longer term OS, like CentOS instead of Fedora,
you're not going to suddenly face major annoying changes to how you use
your computer, like how KDE 4 and Gnome 3 irritated the masses.

If you're a place that has previously paid for Windows, then paying for
RHEL ought to be similarly palatable.  Again, you could use it for one
or two machines, the one's your mostly likely to need technical support
from Red Hat for, and the other basic client machines using the free
CentOS.  Though, if considering a paid OS, you have to consider whether
the type of service you're going to be able to get is useful to you.

Mention was made of having experienced security holes with Windows, so
the concept of keeping a system up-to-date ought to be already accepted.
Keeping on using *any* out-of-date system is a risk, some are easily
demonstratively so, others are harder to show that there is an actual
risk rather than just a theoretical one, but there's still a risk.


Excellent summation Tim!  As I said my problem was not what I wanted but what I
could "Sell" to the Boss.

One outstanding suggestion that came up in this discussion was Scientific Linux
as the "Supported by CERN" could be a powerful selling point.  That post had me
doing the classic head thump D'Oh! I had forgotten about that release!

Female involved in the decision chain has great respect and admiration for the
work of CERN and their web page shows no hint of their relation to CentOS!  That
is a stable platform that I am certain I can get accepted.  Boss taking a long
weekend so I have plenty of time to work up the presentation.

They don't have a connection to ContOS, they have a relationship to RHEL. Now 
there is a good/bad thing there, SL has some install changes which make it easy 
to maintain your own versions of packages, and not have your packages and the 
standard step on one another. From a flexibility standpoint that's good, but the 
install may be slightly different than RHEL. If you don't use the feature you 
don't care.


Being able to say the CERN uses this to run their multi-$B hardware may make an 
impression.


One last thought, I have moved many people to RHEL for desktop, people who want 
to use it for mail, news, browsing, RSS, IRC. People who want to work with docs 
and spreadsheets in MSFT formats. They just have no issues with what they use, 
minimal learning curve, file format compatible, etc.


I have suggested using the seamonkey suite to most of them, some like having all 
their interfaces the same, like reading tweets as RSS feeds like mail, etc. 
About half have gone that way, they like it better than the Windows tools or 
figuring out the browser of the day.


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the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Davidsen]

Mike Dwiggins wrote:


On 4/12/2013 3:06 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:


Am 12.04.2013 12:01, schrieb Mihamina Rakotomandimby:

On 2013-04-12 12:58, Mike Dwiggins wrote:

Does there exist anywhere a list or comparison about which Releases of
Fedora correspond to what Releases of RHEL?

I would not directly compare those, as they are so much far in term of bundled 
versions.

not entirely

RHEL5 is based on Fedora Core 6
RHEL6 is based on F12/F13

Thanks, that is the answer I need.  I just did not know what the direct
comparison was!  That should give me the fire power to sell him on Fedora 16
which as I said my whole shop is running at home.

Getting him to go with Fedora 18 just is not going to happen

Fedora 16 is no longer getting security updates, RHEL6 is. If you want stable, 
RHEL or its free cousins like CentOS-6 are the way to go.


I would normally tell you to go with FC17 and not upgrade until it hit EOL and 
goes out of support. However, given the problems reported by a number of users 
in upgrading from FC17 to FC18, and the generally stable behavior I have seen 
from FC18, I would suggest going that way and avoid an upgrade and support issues.


FC17 will lose support soon, FC18 is quite stable, the new FC19, like any new 
release, will have rough spots which may be tricky to fix. Lacking a reason to 
run the latest, run the most stable with some support life. You have no reason 
to run an old release, either, unsupported is not a positive thing.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/16/2013 04:07 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<>


It's very simple: servers don't generally go out and pages from
websites, so they don't appear in hit logs.  Thus, if all you're
examining is those logs, you're not including servers.  If I'm wrong
about this, please let me know.


not a matter of being wrong. i just was not fully understanding what
you where presenting.

ok?

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/16/2013 12:34 PM, g wrote:


On 04/15/2013 11:45 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<>


I'm saying that the Linux Counter gets
most of its data from them and therefore doesn't count servers.


the last part of that sentence is where i am getting lost.
but that is ok. do not try to explain. i have had trouble
understanding a lot of tings for the past year.



It's very simple: servers don't generally go out and pages from 
websites, so they don't appear in hit logs.  Thus, if all you're 
examining is those logs, you're not including servers.  If I'm wrong 
about this, please let me know.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Matthew J. Roth]

Joe Zeff wrote:
> 
> On 04/16/2013 12:57 PM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:
> > To be fair to Bill, your original analogy equating a subscription to RHN to
> > homeowner's insurance is false.  He did the best he could with what you 
> > gave him
> > to work with.
> 
> I see what you mean.  Would having a plumber or electrician on a 
> retainer in case you ever needed them be closer?

Joe,

I'd say a subscription to RHN is closer to a home warranty.  It may come in
handy if you need it, but there are many ways to void its coverage and if you
don't need it then it's wasted money.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I like it better because it's less
sensationalistic than the comparison to homeowner's insurance.  That invokes the
fear of losing everything which is much more appropriate for something like
performing backups (something everyone should do) than having a subscription to
RHN (valuable to some, but not all).

Regards,

Matthew Roth
InterMedia Marketing Solutions
Software Engineer and Systems Developer
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/15/2013 10:49 AM, Tim wrote:
<>


I'm taking David's comment as a humourous response.


that it was.


Anyone who thought that Windows got where it has purely on

> its merits would have to be extremely deluded or ignorant.

that, or an avid oos fans who can not think for them selves.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/15/2013 03:49 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
<>


My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law.


but, do you have enough to cover everything you have?

i know someone who shot a movie of all his possessions and stores it
in his bank safety deposit box with other documents, just to be sure
he knows what he has in case it was ever needed.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/15/2013 11:45 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<>


I'm saying that the Linux Counter gets
most of its data from them and therefore doesn't count servers.


the last part of that sentence is where i am getting lost.
but that is ok. do not try to explain. i have had trouble
understanding a lot of tings for the past year.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/16/2013 12:57 PM, Matthew J. Roth wrote:

To be fair to Bill, your original analogy equating a subscription to RHN to
homeowner's insurance is false.  He did the best he could with what you gave him
to work with.


I see what you mean.  Would having a plumber or electrician on a 
retainer in case you ever needed them be closer?

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Matthew J. Roth]

Paul W. Frields wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 09:29:02PM +, Bill Oliver wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>> >My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
>> >minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law.
>> 
>> My house might catch fire, but I don't hire a fireman to come by
>> every evening and spray water on the roof just in case.
> 
> Ha!  Clever, but not as apt an analogy, I think, unless a subscription
> meant paying extra to have a consultant come on-site to verify your
> setup on a recurring basis. :-)

Paul,

To be fair to Bill, your original analogy equating a subscription to RHN to
homeowner's insurance is false.  He did the best he could with what you gave him
to work with.

Very few people would ever go without homeowner's insurance, yet many system
administrators run a community-supported distribution on their servers and are
quite capable of doing so with very little risk.

Regards,

Matthew Roth
InterMedia Marketing Solutions
Software Engineer and Systems Developer
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/16/2013 01:59 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

On 04/16/2013 06:33 AM, Craig White wrote:


1. The access to get day of release packages. This means that security
updates don't wait for someone down the line to rebuild packages.

Yes, if this is additional lag to the lag already contained in RHEL is
of concern to you, CentOS would not be a "best choice" for you.


i can not remark to packages, but i do know that scientific linux usually
releases security updates within 24 hours of when bugzi...@redhat.com
makes releases.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 09:29:02PM +, Bill Oliver wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
> >minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law.
> 
> My house might catch fire, but I don't hire a fireman to come by
> every evening and spray water on the roof just in case.

Ha!  Clever, but not as apt an analogy, I think, unless a subscription
meant paying extra to have a consultant come on-site to verify your
setup on a recurring basis. :-)

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/16/2013 06:33 AM, Craig White wrote:


1. The access to get day of release packages. This means that security
updates don't wait for someone down the line to rebuild packages.
Yes, if this is additional lag to the lag already contained in RHEL is 
of concern to you, CentOS would not be a "best choice" for you.


However, when considering "immediate updates" will not always be 
possible on the user-side (a 24/7 server often can't shut down a lib), I 
consider this lag to be neglible in many situations.



This
means that a new release doesn't take weeks or months before it becomes
available (remembering that CentOS 6.0 release was about 8 months behind
the RHEL 6.0 release
IMO; that's are red herring. As CentOS6 wasn't released then, CentOS 
users had to stay with CentOS5. I.e. the delay did not affect then at 
all. Afterwards, the CentOS project has been doing a pretty good job to 
keeping the lags to RHEL small.



2. Real binary compatibility - it is after all, the genuine product. I
applaud CentOS and others for all their efforts to generate packages as
close as possible to binary compatibility but the first time you find
out that some 3rd party software package says installation on CentOS is
not supported, you then realize that there is a difference, even if it
is seemingly arbitrary.
As this thread is about Fedora vs. RHEL, my primary reason for not using 
RHEL and CentOS as my Desktop OS, is them both being comparatively 
slimmed down and comparatively incomplete server-oriented distros.


I.e. if your works rely upon packages or versions of packages, which are 
not part of CentOS/RHEL, CentOS/RHEL are not a good choice.


I for one, chose CentOS as my (In-house, non-public) server's OS, but am 
using Fedora on clients, exactly for this reason.



3. $799 a year for support is more than a small business can justify?
It often is. It definitely is additional cost-factor, which is only 
justified if the "pros" RHEL has over CentOS are of real importance.

In many sitations these are not of importance.

Ralf

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

On Mon, 2013-04-15 at 21:33 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> 3. $799 a year for support is more than a small business can justify?
> As a consultant, I wouldn't want a customer unwilling to pay $800 a
> year for support - enough said.
>
> 4. It supports the ecosystem. There is a cost to developing and
> packaging Linux and Red Hat is a public company and does have a
> responsibility to its stockholders to earn a profit. It seems
> reasonable to support those efforts.

It's a lot to pay, on a just-in-case, basis.  And there are plenty of
small businesses which are not massively profitable, the business being
for the owners to make a living, not for everyone else.

It's more palatable if you are actually making use of the paid support,
and your fourth point certainly adds to the justifications.  Especially
if you're only paying for the support, and you didn't pay for the
software, all of it or some of it.

Actually buy Windows, rather than pirate it, and it's not cheap in an
office.  You have the software (OS *and* programs, *and* various
anti-malware/protective software), the license fees per seat, paying for
upgrades...  Not to mention the vendor lock-in, virtually forcing you to
continually do this, if you want to keep access to your data.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Craig White]

On Mon, 2013-04-15 at 17:12 +0100, Tethys wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Thomas Cameron
>  wrote:
> 
> >> The annoying thing is, I'd *gladly* pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
> >> charge me a sensible amount
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Horse feathers.
> >
> > You can get a personal, developer subscription for $99:
> >
> > https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/developers/rhel_developer_suite.html
> >
> > Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for commercial use
> > for $349:
> 
> You appear to have not read my message. I want support. The developer
> subscription explicitly states "No support is provided with this
> product subscription". Not that I'd have been able to find it on the
> web site in the first place, had you not pointed me at it. Equally,
> the $349 suscription also comes without support. For me, those two
> options provide precisely zero benefit over CentOS.
> 
> > RHEL does not start at thousands of dollars, that's just false.
> 
> You do appear to be correct on that. I'm sure that when I last looked,
> it was going to cost me 4 figures to get support. But it does look
> like I can do so for $799/year. My point still stands. That's more
> than I, as an individual, and also most small businesses can justify.

There have been some items already offered but I would like to add a few
more considerations.

1. The access to get day of release packages. This means that security
updates don't wait for someone down the line to rebuild packages. This
means that a new release doesn't take weeks or months before it becomes
available (remembering that CentOS 6.0 release was about 8 months behind
the RHEL 6.0 release - in fact, RHEL 6.1 was released before CentOS 6
was available.

2. Real binary compatibility - it is after all, the genuine product. I
applaud CentOS and others for all their efforts to generate packages as
close as possible to binary compatibility but the first time you find
out that some 3rd party software package says installation on CentOS is
not supported, you then realize that there is a difference, even if it
is seemingly arbitrary. 

3. $799 a year for support is more than a small business can justify? As
a consultant, I wouldn't want a customer unwilling to pay $800 a year
for support - enough said.

4. It supports the ecosystem. There is a cost to developing and
packaging Linux and Red Hat is a public company and does have a
responsibility to its stockholders to earn a profit. It seems reasonable
to support those efforts.

Yes, I would agree that if you can function within the self-help arena
of Fedora or CentOS or Scientific Linux or ?? then the free options seem
to have achieved equity but only if you choose to ignore the 4 issues I
laid out above.

Craig


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[eoconno...@gmail.com]

Wellto add my two centsI have been a Windows Admin since Windows 
95right up until nowand I can say with no prejudice that the few users 
who run Linux in the office call maybe once every four to five months with 
issues.whereas the majority of the Windows users call CONSTANTLY with 
issues ranging from viruses...to programs that just DON'T WORK. If I couldI 
would flip the entire COMPANY over to Linux! I've been tinkering with Linux now 
at home for only a few yearsbut I haven't gone back to Windows since 
thenbottom line.those who know..KNOW! If you're happy using 
Windowsstick with itand then come see a Linux guru when you've had 
enough!

Sent from Eddie's Cell Phone

- Reply message -
From: "David" 
To: 
Cc: "Community support for Fedora users" 
Subject: Fedora vs RHEL
Date: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 11:30 pm


On 4/14/2013 11:23 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> Quoting David :
> 
>> On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
>>> On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:
>>>
>>> Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
>>> support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
>>> they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their
>>> Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.
> 
> That precisely reflects my experience. I have a good friend, an
> engineer, who used to use NT. I convinced him to use Linux instead and
> have had a steep decline in the difficulty of support. He still asks me
> for help once in a while but it's pretty much routine fixes. Other
> friends with Windows still give me toothaches with the
> incomprehensibility of their issues. Like fixing a motor on a car with
> the hood welded shut.
> 
> Dave



My sons are adults and they maintain their own computers and phones. My
mother uses Win 7 and in 4+ years has never broken it one.

She use Firefox, Thunderbird, Libreoffice, Skype, and some program that
I can not remember the name of that makes really complicated sewing
patterns and stuff. As well as several other programs. She watches
videos. Plays music. Streaming TV and movies. I fix nothing.

IMHO? Use what works.

-- 

  David
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Edward M]

On 4/15/2013 8:49 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

not all you're getting, which is why Red Hat
consistently talks about providing higher value in the subscription
model than just bits. Rather, the value includes things like:

* Certification on hardware
* Ecosystem of applications certified on the platform
* Access to top-rated customer support portal resources
* Vendor response to security issues and other errata
  Thanks for your time explaining  me the add-on  value of  the 
self-support subscription
   I was going according to what  the "Production Support Service 
Level Agreement" chart shows

https://access.redhat.com/support/offerings/production/sla.html

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 16.04.2013 00:55, schrieb David Beveridge:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Reindl Harald  
> wrote:
>>
>> honestly, most support-contracts are quite useless if they
>> cover only default setups and let you alone in the rain
>> for a infrastructure which is customized for your needs
>>
> 
> I work for a fairly large company that has loads of VMs using a clone OS.
> One day we had a support problem we were grappling with.
> So we purchased an unlimited VM support contract for RHEL.
> 
> We were told that our app was only supported on 32 bit when we used 64 bit

which is unacceptable

nobody seriously will setup a 32bit machine, especially in case
of virtual machines which can be move to new hardware uninterrupted

hence we currently run production with Fedora 17 x86_64 on top of ESXi
and the guests are all installed in summer 2008 as Fedora 9 and
there was a lot of changes in the hwardeware and the whole infrastructure
without reinstall any production amchine

> We were able to install a 32bit vm and replicate the problem, however,
> the problem went unresolved for a few months and then we figured out the
> answer on our own.

which is one of the examples that a support contract in the worst case
gives you not more than i "here is a paper which proves i did notuing
wrong" which does not help you at the end of the day

> We did not renew the support contract

understable

all this contracts are only fine if you are use only packages from the
distribution but god beware if things go bad if you have whatever apps
even with their specific support contracts - you may sit there for
days and weeks while one compnay explains you the other is responsible
in circles, thats the different of theory and real life

in the real life you may have better chances to rescure your business if
you take all the money yous aved for all these support contracts and
put it at once in one specialist which solves your problem independent
of the layer where it is originated to rescue your business



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David Beveridge]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 12:01 AM, Reindl Harald  wrote:
>
> honestly, most support-contracts are quite useless if they
> cover only default setups and let you alone in the rain
> for a infrastructure which is customized for your needs
>

I work for a fairly large company that has loads of VMs using a clone OS.
One day we had a support problem we were grappling with.
So we purchased an unlimited VM support contract for RHEL.

We were told that our app was only supported on 32 bit when we used 64 bit.
We were able to install a 32bit vm and replicate the problem, however,
the problem went unresolved for a few months and then we figured out the
answer on our own.

We did not renew the support contract.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 15.04.2013 23:17, schrieb Paul W. Frields:
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 10:55:17PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 15.04.2013 22:49, schrieb Paul W. Frields:
 I think we have very different experiences with community distros.
 I've run mission and business-critical tasks on community distros
 for years and never had a problem, starting with Mandrake back in
 the day, then Mandriva, then Fedora, with short episodes of Suse and
 Mint.
>>> [...snip...]
>>>
>>> My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
>>> minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law
>>
>> that may be right in this context
>>
>> but a support contract in the reality does not guarantee that
>> every problem you MAY have is solved in a acceptable timeframe
>> and mostly support contracts are ending where your setup differs
>> from the defaults and if the deafults would satisfy your business
>> you mostly would not have the problem which needs to be solved
>>
>> at the end of the day you oftly realize that a support contract
>> doe snot help you in your situation and power the money in more
>> redundancy would have been the better solution
> 
> What defaults are you talking about?  

that may differ and is not easily classify
after many years in the business i have seen too much "sideletters" :-)

honestly, Redhat would be one of the few i trust most

why? because they are doing a lot for opensource at all and are
showing a overall fine attitude since many years

> If I alter the default configurations for my web server, for example, 
> in no way does that make it unsupportable by Red Hat

but if they apache RPM doe snot satisfy you and you rebuild
it with slightly different options the support is gone which
is clearly to understand from the point of view of the support
but is one big benefit of opensource -> you are able to do so

> Can all problems absolutely be solved, 100% guaranteed?  Probably not,
> although I know a lot of support people who really try to make that
> true.  But I can probably guarantee you that without support, the
> vendor is 100% likely not to solve it. :-)

true

> BTW, I feel like this thread is now talking a lot about Red Hat
> support, and going pretty off-topic for helping Fedora users.  But at
> the same time, I also feel honor-bound, because Red Hat pays my
> salary, to correct what I believe are mistaken impressions.  Apologies
> to any who are bored or losing patience.  I will pipe down for now

no problem

it speaks for Redhat at the end of the day that here are people
which are paied from the company and can say their opionios
in the public wihtout asking someone in the company for every word

there are way too much examples out there where this is impossible



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Paul W. Frields wrote:



My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law.



My house might catch fire, but I don't hire a fireman to come by 
every evening and spray water on the roof just in case.


billo
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 10:55:17PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 15.04.2013 22:49, schrieb Paul W. Frields:
> >> I think we have very different experiences with community distros.
> >> I've run mission and business-critical tasks on community distros
> >> for years and never had a problem, starting with Mandrake back in
> >> the day, then Mandriva, then Fedora, with short episodes of Suse and
> >> Mint.
> > [...snip...]
> > 
> > My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
> > minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law
> 
> that may be right in this context
> 
> but a support contract in the reality does not guarantee that
> every problem you MAY have is solved in a acceptable timeframe
> and mostly support contracts are ending where your setup differs
> from the defaults and if the deafults would satisfy your business
> you mostly would not have the problem which needs to be solved
> 
> at the end of the day you oftly realize that a support contract
> doe snot help you in your situation and power the money in more
> redundancy would have been the better solution

What defaults are you talking about?  If I alter the default
configurations for my web server, for example, in no way does that
make it unsupportable by Red Hat.  The kernel, on the other hand, is
specifically chosen and tuned for customers, relentlessly tested,
verified and certified by hardware partners, etc.  Supporting any old
customer-built kernel would be like Ford honoring its warranty on a
Taurus when the car's owner has swapped out the engine block.

Can all problems absolutely be solved, 100% guaranteed?  Probably not,
although I know a lot of support people who really try to make that
true.  But I can probably guarantee you that without support, the
vendor is 100% likely not to solve it. :-)

BTW, I feel like this thread is now talking a lot about Red Hat
support, and going pretty off-topic for helping Fedora users.  But at
the same time, I also feel honor-bound, because Red Hat pays my
salary, to correct what I believe are mistaken impressions.  Apologies
to any who are bored or losing patience.  I will pipe down for now.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 15.04.2013 22:49, schrieb Paul W. Frields:
>> I think we have very different experiences with community distros.
>> I've run mission and business-critical tasks on community distros
>> for years and never had a problem, starting with Mandrake back in
>> the day, then Mandriva, then Fedora, with short episodes of Suse and
>> Mint.
> [...snip...]
> 
> My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
> minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law

that may be right in this context

but a support contract in the reality does not guarantee that
every problem you MAY have is solved in a acceptable timeframe
and mostly support contracts are ending where your setup differs
from the defaults and if the deafults would satisfy your business
you mostly would not have the problem which needs to be solved

at the end of the day you oftly realize that a support contract
doe snot help you in your situation and power the money in more
redundancy would have been the better solution



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 08:12:29PM +, Bill Oliver wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Thomas Cameron wrote:
[...snip...]
> >My experience may be different from some, but I don't think that
> >$799, or even several thousand dollars for multiple servers, is
> >exorbitant at all.
> >
> >We're talking about the core infrastructure of your business here.
> >
> 
> I think we have very different experiences with community distros.
> I've run mission and business-critical tasks on community distros
> for years and never had a problem, starting with Mandrake back in
> the day, then Mandriva, then Fedora, with short episodes of Suse and
> Mint.
[...snip...]

My house has never caught fire yet, but I still have more than the
minimal amount of homeowner's insurance required by law.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Thomas Cameron wrote:



If $799 per year for support of the infrastructure that you run your business 
on is too much, I'd say your business is pretty freaking shaky.


I've personally started two small businesses, and I've been involved in 
several other startups. Even on a pretty skinny shoestring, we did not trust 
our business critical systems to no support or community support.


My experience may be different from some, but I don't think that $799, or 
even several thousand dollars for multiple servers, is exorbitant at all.


We're talking about the core infrastructure of your business here.

TC
--


I think we have very different experiences with community distros.  I've run 
mission and business-critical tasks on community distros for years and never 
had a problem, starting with Mandrake back in the day, then Mandriva, then 
Fedora, with short episodes of Suse and Mint.  While getting a distro 
*installed and running* has been a hassle -- more in the past than now, once 
it's up and going, they've all been solid.  I get the impression from you that 
your community distros have been flaky.  The ones I've run have not, and I've 
never been burned *because* something was a community distro.  I think the 
thing is that for a solid box, you just don't install all the wacky packages.  
There's no need to install the latest eye candy and shoot 'em up on your 
firewall.

But, really, once you have mail running on your mail server, it's not likely to 
just explode, even if it's Fedora.  You come in, read your logs, check for 
intrusions, do the once-in-a-blue-moon sendmail update, make the occasional 
backup, and send out an invoice.  Hell, I've had machines I didn't even turn 
*off* for three years, and only did it then to do a clean install upgrade.

The only real downside I can see for community distros is the need to upgrade frequently, 
which goes back to the "installed and running" part.

billo
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/15/2013 11:12 AM, Tethys wrote:

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Thomas Cameron
 wrote:


The annoying thing is, I'd *gladly* pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
charge me a sensible amount


[...]

Horse feathers.

You can get a personal, developer subscription for $99:

https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/developers/rhel_developer_suite.html

Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for commercial use
for $349:


You appear to have not read my message. I want support. The developer
subscription explicitly states "No support is provided with this
product subscription". Not that I'd have been able to find it on the
web site in the first place, had you not pointed me at it. Equally,
the $349 suscription also comes without support. For me, those two
options provide precisely zero benefit over CentOS.


RHEL does not start at thousands of dollars, that's just false.


You do appear to be correct on that. I'm sure that when I last looked,
it was going to cost me 4 figures to get support. But it does look
like I can do so for $799/year. My point still stands. That's more
than I, as an individual, and also most small businesses can justify.


If $799 per year for support of the infrastructure that you run your 
business on is too much, I'd say your business is pretty freaking shaky.


I've personally started two small businesses, and I've been involved in 
several other startups. Even on a pretty skinny shoestring, we did not 
trust our business critical systems to no support or community support.


My experience may be different from some, but I don't think that $799, 
or even several thousand dollars for multiple servers, is exorbitant at all.


We're talking about the core infrastructure of your business here.

TC
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/14/2013 10:15 PM, David wrote:

On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:

On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:

Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their
Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.





Hmm...

They could not handle Windows so you switched them over to Linux?
Because you were not capable of fixing Windows when they broke it?


LOL - yeah, that's *exactly* what you should infer from that.

Never mind that I'm an IT professional with about two decades of systems 
administration and engineering, in both Microsoft and Linux shops.



It is where I am supposed to be impressed with them? And you?

Should I genuflect? Or sacrifice a chicken or a lamb?


ROFLMAO - wow, you really woke up on the wrong side of the bed, huh?

TC
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Antonio Olivares]

>> His data and apps must not be very important to him if he won't pony up
>> $349
>> for a commercially supported OS.
>> https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html
>> 
>> It never ceases to amaze me that people will run their businesses - the
>> thing
>> that feeds their families and employees' families - on cobbled together
>> systems with community-supported distros.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small businesses use "cobbled together" infrastructure because that's all
> they can afford.  Meeting a payroll can be a bitch.  Most small
> businesses start that way.  Some move up to where they can spend lots of
> money for lots of things, some fail, and some tread water.
> 
> It really shouldn't amaze you that a guy with $100 doesn't spend $350.

(OT)
But the govt. does do somethings like these.  It collects $x$ amount of money 
but spends $x + y + z + ... $ and it owes $$  to others! 

> 
> billo
> --

Now throw in ``ObamaCare'' and those business' may not even start :(  So these 
folks could use something that can help them survive in today's market!  

Best Regards,


Antonio


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/15/2013 01:16 AM, g wrote:

so, you run a web server , and i am agreeing that a web server gives a
better accounting, but you say that it is not. then just what do you
consider
to give a good account?


No, I don't run a web server.  I'm saying that the Linux Counter gets 
most of its data from them and therefore doesn't count servers.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tethys]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Thomas Cameron
 wrote:

>> The annoying thing is, I'd *gladly* pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
>> charge me a sensible amount
>
> [...]
>
> Horse feathers.
>
> You can get a personal, developer subscription for $99:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/developers/rhel_developer_suite.html
>
> Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for commercial use
> for $349:

You appear to have not read my message. I want support. The developer
subscription explicitly states "No support is provided with this
product subscription". Not that I'd have been able to find it on the
web site in the first place, had you not pointed me at it. Equally,
the $349 suscription also comes without support. For me, those two
options provide precisely zero benefit over CentOS.

> RHEL does not start at thousands of dollars, that's just false.

You do appear to be correct on that. I'm sure that when I last looked,
it was going to cost me 4 figures to get support. But it does look
like I can do so for $799/year. My point still stands. That's more
than I, as an individual, and also most small businesses can justify.

Tet

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 14 April 2013, Thomas Cameron sent:
> It never ceases to amaze me that people will run their businesses -
> the thing that feeds their families and employees' families - on
> cobbled together systems with community-supported distros. 

Or me, that they'd do it on Windows, seriously out-of-date releases of
OS and software, a weird and useless anti-virus, no back-ups, no UPS,
and nobody on the premises with a sufficient clue about using
computers...

I know of one particular company who would have been completely hosed
when their computer system died, if not for the fact that they used
old-fashioned manual invoice books for all their sales (they just
duplicated the information into the computer when they got back to the
office).  It was the only thing that told them who owed them what.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

My apologies for not including a virus with this message, but I don't
use Windows.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Paul W. Frields]

On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 10:42:56PM -0700, Edward M wrote:
> On 4/14/2013 7:22 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
> >Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for
> >commercial use for $349:
> 
>  Give $349 to RedHat just for talking to myself(self- support):-);
>  Using either centos or Oracle linux, one also gets self-support
> without a fee.

Again, you're making an apples-to-oranges comparison.  The cost for
Red Hat is not just about access to a downloadable product you can
install and run.  If that were the case, yes, $349 would not be a good
deal.  But that's not all you're getting, which is why Red Hat
consistently talks about providing higher value in the subscription
model than just bits. Rather, the value includes things like:

* Certification on hardware
* Ecosystem of applications certified on the platform
* Access to top-rated customer support portal resources
* Vendor response to security issues and other errata

If your use case is "I run Linux at home because I think it's
awesome," that $349 may not be worth it for you.  But for people
running a business, it may very well be, even in a self-support model
-- for instance, if your business runs an app that needs to run on a
certified platform; or if you are public internet-facing and want the
fastest access to important security fixes that may not be available
as immediately on rebuild OSes.  This isn't a slam on rebuild OSes,
which I use sometimes myself.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Tim:
>>> It became the biggest OS infestation by devious business practices
>>> shoehorning it into personal computers.

David:
>> Careful. Your paranoia is showing.  :-)

g:
> that is not paranoia, it is a fact that cause a grand jury investigation.
> 
> or, are you old enough to be aware of such?

I'm taking David's comment as a humourous response.  Anyone who thought
that Windows got where it has purely on its merits would have to be
extremely deluded or ignorant.

My other grandma comments were playing devil's advocate.

Anybody who is capable of learning how to use a computer, even if in the
most basic way, is capable of learning how to use a Windows, Mac, or
Linux PC.  They're all kind of similar in operation, and with modern
menus it's fairly easy to do basic stuff (easier on Linux, I'd say, as
you've got an organised menu that the others don't have, they just
shovel everything in randomly), and all kind of hard to do harder stuff.
So, as far as I'm concerned, anybody's grandma who can switch on their
computer and do email with Windows, can do the same with their Mac, or
Linux box.  They'll all take about as long to learn the basics.  So the
argument that only Windows is suitable for grandma is all bull.

The other point I was making was that barely-basic-computer-literate
grandma would be just as incapable of getting a broken computer to work
again, with any of the OSs.  Likewise with installing new software, or
reconfiguring existing software.  So, again, stating that only Windows
is suitable for grandma is a load of bull.

None of the OSs are really suitable for clueless people.  Even the
dumb/smart clients which are just an interface to software running out
on a cloud are just as bad.  If the user is accessing them through a web
browser, they're still at risk of doing something dangerous through
their web browser (visiting malware sites, falling for confirming their
banking details to fishers, et cetera).  And if they have some simpler
interface for the software that the cloud offers to them, they're just
as likely to make a hash of using that as software that actually runs on
their computer.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

My apologies for not including a virus with this message, but I don't
use Windows.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 15.04.2013 15:50, schrieb Bill Oliver:
> 
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2013, Thomas Cameron wrote:
>>
>> His data and apps must not be very important to him if he won't pony up $349 
>> for a commercially supported OS.
>> https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html
>>
>> It never ceases to amaze me that people will run their businesses - the 
>> thing that feeds their families and
>> employees' families - on cobbled together systems with community-supported 
>> distros.
>>
> Small businesses use "cobbled together" infrastructure because that's all 
> they can afford.  Meeting a payroll can
> be a bitch.  Most small businesses start that way.  Some move up to where 
> they can spend lots of money for lots of
> things, some fail, and some tread water

and some of them have techs which are knowing what they are doing

honestly, most support-contracts are quite useless if they
cover only default setups and let you alone in the rain
for a infrastructure which is customized for your needs



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013, Thomas Cameron wrote:



His data and apps must not be very important to him if he won't pony up $349 
for a commercially supported OS. 
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html


It never ceases to amaze me that people will run their businesses - the thing 
that feeds their families and employees' families - on cobbled together 
systems with community-supported distros.






Small businesses use "cobbled together" infrastructure because that's all they 
can afford.  Meeting a payroll can be a bitch.  Most small businesses start that way.  
Some move up to where they can spend lots of money for lots of things, some fail, and 
some tread water.

It really shouldn't amaze you that a guy with $100 doesn't spend $350.

billo
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 15.04.2013 10:16, schrieb g:
> On 04/15/2013 01:42 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>> On 04/14/2013 11:36 AM, g wrote:
>>>
>>> On 04/13/2013 05:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>>> <<>
>>>
 My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
 of its numbers from webserver hit logs.
>>>
>>> web server hits is a more realistic view of what is in use.
>>>
>>
>> Not if you want to include servers it isn't.
> 
> so, you run a web server , and i am agreeing that a web server gives a
> better accounting, but you say that it is not. then just what do you consider
> to give a good account?

honestly NOTHING, really: nothing

forget it, all that user-agent stats are crap and you can
read from them whatever you want to read as any other
method - they are a small indication but nothing more



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/15/2013 01:42 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 04/14/2013 11:36 AM, g wrote:


On 04/13/2013 05:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<<>


My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.


web server hits is a more realistic view of what is in use.



Not if you want to include servers it isn't.


so, you run a web server , and i am agreeing that a web server gives a
better accounting, but you say that it is not. then just what do you consider
to give a good account?

maybe i should have said web _page_ servers, where web pages are presented
for public viewing?

--

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc. hago.

g
.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/14/2013 11:36 AM, g wrote:


On 04/13/2013 05:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<<>


My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.


web server hits is a more realistic view of what is in use.



Not if you want to include servers it isn't.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Edward M]

On 4/14/2013 7:22 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for commercial 
use for $349:


 Give $349 to RedHat just for talking to myself(self- support):-);
 Using either centos or Oracle linux, one also gets self-support 
without a fee.


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other, to show our strengths and reveal our weaknesses, and in the final 
analysis-to affirm the dignity of mankind.”
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Roger]

On 04/15/2013 01:23 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

Quoting David :


On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:

On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:

Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on 
their

Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.


That precisely reflects my experience. I have a good friend, an 
engineer, who used to use NT. I convinced him to use Linux instead and 
have had a steep decline in the difficulty of support. He still asks 
me for help once in a while but it's pretty much routine fixes. Other 
friends with Windows still give me toothaches with the 
incomprehensibility of their issues. Like fixing a motor on a car with 
the hood welded shut.


Dave






Hmm...

They could not handle Windows so you switched them over to Linux?
Because you were not capable of fixing Windows when they broke it?

It is where I am supposed to be impressed with them? And you?

Should I genuflect? Or sacrifice a chicken or a lamb?

--

  David


I almost responded but this has the hallmark of another he said, she 
said. The only thing of note is the successful moves to Linux and 
that is all that matters.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 11:23 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> Quoting David :
> 
>> On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
>>> On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:
>>>
>>> Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
>>> support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
>>> they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their
>>> Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.
> 
> That precisely reflects my experience. I have a good friend, an
> engineer, who used to use NT. I convinced him to use Linux instead and
> have had a steep decline in the difficulty of support. He still asks me
> for help once in a while but it's pretty much routine fixes. Other
> friends with Windows still give me toothaches with the
> incomprehensibility of their issues. Like fixing a motor on a car with
> the hood welded shut.
> 
> Dave



My sons are adults and they maintain their own computers and phones. My
mother uses Win 7 and in 4+ years has never broken it one.

She use Firefox, Thunderbird, Libreoffice, Skype, and some program that
I can not remember the name of that makes really complicated sewing
patterns and stuff. As well as several other programs. She watches
videos. Plays music. Streaming TV and movies. I fix nothing.

IMHO? Use what works.

-- 

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Dave Stevens]

Quoting David :


On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:

On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:

Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their
Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.


That precisely reflects my experience. I have a good friend, an  
engineer, who used to use NT. I convinced him to use Linux instead and  
have had a steep decline in the difficulty of support. He still asks  
me for help once in a while but it's pretty much routine fixes. Other  
friends with Windows still give me toothaches with the  
incomprehensibility of their issues. Like fixing a motor on a car with  
the hood welded shut.


Dave






Hmm...

They could not handle Windows so you switched them over to Linux?
Because you were not capable of fixing Windows when they broke it?

It is where I am supposed to be impressed with them? And you?

Should I genuflect? Or sacrifice a chicken or a lamb?

--

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 10:25 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote:
> On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:
> 
> Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My
> support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when
> they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their
> Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.




Hmm...

They could not handle Windows so you switched them over to Linux?
Because you were not capable of fixing Windows when they broke it?

It is where I am supposed to be impressed with them? And you?

Should I genuflect? Or sacrifice a chicken or a lamb?

-- 

  David
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/13/2013 07:53 PM, David wrote:

On 4/13/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 04/13/2013 03:07 PM, David wrote:

I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might
work".



Yes.  I know.  However, there's always a few grains of wheat mixed in
with the chaff; the trick is to figure out which suggestions to follow.
  Generally, however, I've found that for somebody like me who knows
something about Linux and just needs distro-specific advice, that's not
too hard.


Here you will see the latest usage numbers.

"OS Platform Statistics and Trends"




Interesting, and roughly twice what the Linux Counter suggests:
http://linuxcounter.net/guessing.html

My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.



I really *do not know* exactly what the usage number means. But I do
'know' that - or think that putting 'grandma' over to Linux, IMHO, would
not be a good idea.  :-)


Meh. My mom (nearly 70) and my daughters (6 and 10) all use Linux. My 
support level with them is orders of magnitude lower than it was when 
they ran Windows. It's also a Hell of a lot easier to fix stuff on their 
Linux boxen than it ever was with Windows.


TC
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/12/2013 02:14 PM, Tethys wrote:

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Paul W. Frields  wrote:


If you install Fedora, what you get for support is, essentially,
answers people are willing to give you for free here, in forums, in
IRC, and so on.  If you install CentOS or SL, I believe the answer is
roughly the same.  This does not necessarily make CentOS or SL bad
options (leaving out Fedora for lifecycle reasons others have already
made clear).  You, and your boss, have to be willing to live with that
definition of support.


The annoying thing is, I'd *gladly* pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
charge me a sensible amount. I'm not a multinational corporation. I'm
a home user with a single server, but it's important to me. It's
currently running CentOS and has a number of problems. I'd install
RHEL in a heartbeat to get support for it. But given the minimum Red
Hat support charge is several thousand, it's simply out of my price
range :-(


Horse feathers.

You can get a personal, developer subscription for $99:

https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/developers/rhel_developer_suite.html

Alternatively, you can get a self-support subscription for commercial 
use for $349:


https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html

RHEL does not start at thousands of dollars, that's just false.

Thomas
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/12/2013 05:09 AM, Mike Dwiggins wrote:


On 4/12/2013 3:01 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:

On 2013-04-12 12:58, Mike Dwiggins wrote:

Does there exist anywhere a list or comparison about which Releases of
Fedora correspond to what Releases of RHEL?


I would not directly compare those, as they are so much far in term of
bundled versions.

My suggestion is to compare CentOS and RHEL.


My problem is that I am trying to sell my Boss on Fedora!  He refuses to
let us use CentOS or to pay for RHEL ( Yes cheapskate). But if I can
show some comparison to RHEL I can sell him on Fedora.


His data and apps must not be very important to him if he won't pony up 
$349 for a commercially supported OS. 
https://www.redhat.com/wapps/store/catalog.html


It never ceases to amaze me that people will run their businesses - the 
thing that feeds their families and employees' families - on cobbled 
together systems with community-supported distros.



My whole shop run home servers and we all use Fedora.  We just need
something from somewhere to convince him!


Ask him what his business apps and data are worth to him.

TC
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Thomas Cameron]

On 04/12/2013 05:06 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:



Am 12.04.2013 12:01, schrieb Mihamina Rakotomandimby:

On 2013-04-12 12:58, Mike Dwiggins wrote:

Does there exist anywhere a list or comparison about which Releases of
Fedora correspond to what Releases of RHEL?


I would not directly compare those, as they are so much far in term of bundled 
versions.


not entirely

RHEL5 is based on Fedora Core 6
RHEL6 is based on F12/F13


My suggestion is to compare CentOS and RHEL


what do you need to compare in this case?
it is a 100% binary compatible clone built from the same source rpms


No, it is not. It is a similar clone built from the same source RPMs but 
on a different build system with no real knowledge of how the RHEL RPMs 
are built.


I've seen way too many weird little glitches between CentOS and RHEL to 
buy the "it's 100% compatible" line again, sorry.


If you want RHEL, buy RHEL. If you want a clone, use a clone. But don't 
fool yourself into thinking they are exactly the same. They're not.


Thomas
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Gordon Messmer]

On 04/12/2013 12:14 PM, Tethys wrote:

The annoying thing is, I'd*gladly*  pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
charge me a sensible amount. I'd install
RHEL in a heartbeat to get support for it. But given the minimum Red
Hat support charge is several thousand, it's simply out of my price
range:-(


It's actually $349 / year:
https://www.redhat.com/apps/store/server/

Other than that, I agree with you.  I offer IT systems management to a 
large number of small businesses, where Linux is used for very simple 
infrastructure.  If there were a $10/month/server plan, I could probably 
get them to pay money Red Hat's way.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/13/2013 04:32 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<>


Pizza, chocolate-chip cookies or other snacks are often the unit of
payment in this case.


put plenty of anchovies on my pizza, please.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/14/2013 06:50 AM, David wrote:
<<>>


Fix it? She has never broken it.


then she may have very little installed, other than basic install.



It became the biggest OS infestation by devious business practices

>> shoehorning it into personal computers.


Careful. Your paranoia is showing.  :-)


that is not paranoia, it is a fact that cause a grand jury investigation.

or, are you old enough to be aware of such?

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/14/2013 06:29 AM, Tim wrote:
<<>>


Every now and then there's some interesting things in the access logs,
like a C64.  I'm not sure if someone's being humerous, or whether it the
actual device.  I know it can do it, just whether anybody would actually
bother...


i would venture to say that there are very few, if any, malware written
for a c64.

therefore, it would stand to be safest os for internet and email. :-)


Though who knows how successful it is at  weeding out the faked headers.


and could be, if using a client that is capable of hiding behind c64 as
user agent as firefox can do. ;-)

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/13/2013 05:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
<<>


My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.


web server hits is a more realistic view of what is in use.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[g]

On 04/13/2013 05:07 PM, David wrote:
<<>>




If you look at the latest numbers, March 2013, you will see that there
are more than two times the number of users of Mac over Linux.


and if you read where the get their numbers, you will see that list is
for there 'school'. what every it is and for.

> I don't actually know anyone that uses a Mac. Do you?

i do and there are quite a few. several have even installed linux as their
second boot.


And that the Linux 'number' is *all* of the different Linux distributions.


so their school members do not use a lot of linux. which does not really
prove anything.


All of which means? IMHO. Linux is cool but not really ready, yet, for
grandma.


if my grandmas where still alive, they would be using linux.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 11:24 AM, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
>>> Unless you can see access statistics from some very general purpose
>>> website (i.e. one that everyone might use, like Google), as opposed to
>>> the stats from specialist websites (web designers, Linux users), the
>>> results are going to be horribly skewed.
> 
> David:
>> Statistics such as these?
>>
>> "OS Platform Statistics and Trends"
>>
>>
>> 
> 
> No, because they're a specialist site, and it's their own logs.  Look at
> the disclaimer at the bottom of that page, quoted here:
> 
> "Statistics Can Be Misleading
> "You cannot - as a web developer - rely ONLY on statistics. Statistics
> can be misleading.
> 
> "Note: W3Schools is a website for people with an interest for web
> technologies. These people are more interested in using alternative
> browsers than the average user. The average user tends to use the
> browser that comes preinstalled with their computer, and do not seek out
> other browser alternatives.
> 
> "Tip: Global averages may not be relevant to your web site. Different
> sites attract different audiences. Some web sites attract professional
> developers using professional hardware, while other sites attract
> hobbyists using old computers.
> 
> "Anyway, our data, collected from W3Schools' log-files, over many years,
> clearly shows the long term trends."
> 


Hmmm... I see. Thanks for the info.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Tim:
>> Unless you can see access statistics from some very general purpose
>> website (i.e. one that everyone might use, like Google), as opposed to
>> the stats from specialist websites (web designers, Linux users), the
>> results are going to be horribly skewed.

David:
> Statistics such as these?
> 
> "OS Platform Statistics and Trends"
> 
> 
> 

No, because they're a specialist site, and it's their own logs.  Look at
the disclaimer at the bottom of that page, quoted here:

"Statistics Can Be Misleading
"You cannot - as a web developer - rely ONLY on statistics. Statistics
can be misleading.

"Note: W3Schools is a website for people with an interest for web
technologies. These people are more interested in using alternative
browsers than the average user. The average user tends to use the
browser that comes preinstalled with their computer, and do not seek out
other browser alternatives.

"Tip: Global averages may not be relevant to your web site. Different
sites attract different audiences. Some web sites attract professional
developers using professional hardware, while other sites attract
hobbyists using old computers.

"Anyway, our data, collected from W3Schools' log-files, over many years,
clearly shows the long term trends."

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

My apologies for not including a virus with this message, but I don't
use Windows.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 10:27 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/14/2013 04:47 AM, David wrote:
>> My mother, 'grandma', lives in central Florida. I live in Seattle.
> 
> I do tech support for my older sister.  We share a condo.


Well I guess that is close enough to be within walking distance. And
definitely closer than my 3,300, or so,  miles. :-)

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/14/2013 04:47 AM, David wrote:

My mother, 'grandma', lives in central Florida. I live in Seattle.


I do tech support for my older sister.  We share a condo.
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 7:29 AM, Tim wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 13 April 2013, Joe Zeff sent:
>> My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
>> of its numbers from webserver hit logs.
> 
> Unless you can see access statistics from some very general purpose
> website (i.e. one that everyone might use, like Google), as opposed to
> the stats from specialist websites (web designers, Linux users), the
> results are going to be horribly skewed.
> 
> Over the years, I've watched the stats from my website, which isn't
> really aimed at computer users, but I'd still never claim it to be
> representative of the internet users on the whole.  I've seen MSIE fall
> off its perch, many years ago.  It used to be about 85-90%, fell down to
> about 65%, with the majority of the rest being Firefox, and things
> evened out once we got a third player.
> 
> So far, this month:
> Browser  Hits   Percentage
> Google Chrome8,134  26.3
> MS Internet Explorer 6,950  22.5
> Firefox  6,822  22.1
> Safari   4,777  15.4
> Mozilla  1,198   3.8
> Android browser  1,086   3.5
> Opera  806   2.6
> Unknown670   2.1
> LG (PDA/Phone browser)  92   0.2
> IPhone  84   0.2
> Others 239   0.7
> 
> Also, Windows is down considerably more than one might expect.
> 
> So far, this month:
> OSHitsPercent
> Windows   19,555  63.3
> Macintosh  6,060  19.6
> Linux  3,454  11.1
> Unknown1,403   4.5
> Java Mobile  203   0.6
> BlackBerry76   0.2
> OS/2  30   0
> Java  23   0
> Symbian OS17   0
> Unknown Unix  15   0
> Others22   0
> 
> Every now and then there's some interesting things in the access logs,
> like a C64.  I'm not sure if someone's being humerous, or whether it the
> actual device.  I know it can do it, just whether anybody would actually
> bother...
> 
> In both sets of stats, it's supposed to have weeded out robots and only
> acknowledged real users.  Though who knows how successful it is at
> weeding out the faked headers.
> 
> I think that it's safe to say, that for a long time Windows will be
> dominant, because it's foisted upon people.  It's the true computer
> user, or the seriously disgruntled user, who's going to try Linux.  And
> out of the disgruntled users, there will be those who'd rather pay for
> Mac, or can't figure out how to do anything different for themselves.
> 
> My take from this is that Linux is in about the right spot, though it's
> not doing itself much good with some the current change in design
> trends.  There's no point being a clone.  To change OSs, I want and need
> an actual alternative.  And unless you make an incredibly dumbed down
> system, there's no point in trying to pick up the absolute masses of
> clueless users.
> 


Statistics such as these?

"OS Platform Statistics and Trends"



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/14/2013 7:06 AM, Tim wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 13 April 2013, David sent:
>> I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
>> Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
>> that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
>> wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might work".
> 
> And this is different to Windows, how?  There's an awful lot of
> ham-fisted doddering about to *try* and make it do what it's supposed to
> do.
> 
>> All I meant was that befer you 'move someone to Linux', of any kind, you
>> need to understand that Linux use is still, mostly, limited to 'us geeks'
> 
> Again, how is this different from Windows?  Sure, hopeless computer
> users can use any OS while it's working.  But it still takes a "geek" to
> make Windows behave itself.  The average computer user hasn't a chance.
> 
>> All of which means? IMHO. Linux is cool but not really ready, yet, for
>> grandma.
> 
> Nor is Windows.  Nor do I think it will ever be.
> 
>> Because? When $hit goes bad, or just does not work, with Linux it
>> actually takes someone that knows what they are doing to fix it. Or
>> reinstall it so that it works again.
>>
>> IMHO? Grandma does not want to deal with that. My mother, grandma to my
>> kids, would not want any part of that if she was still alive.
> 
> And can she fix Windows?  Does she know the need to defrag, can she do
> it?  Can she repair the damage from a virus that her anti-virus software
> didn't detect until it was too late?  Can she install new software?  Can
> she sort out an install that didn't go right?  Can she debug why the
> whole computer crashes and bluescreens while trying to do something
> basic with the grandson's birthday video in Windows Movie Maker?  Or any
> of the plethora of other day-to-day Windows screw-ups?



Fix it? She has never broken it.



> I'd be very surprised if the answer to any of that was "yes" for your
> grandma, or any others.  I can't remember seeing any Windows home
> computer that wasn't a mess.
> 
> Windows did not get where it is by being better, easier, more reliable,
> nor any other reason that would justify itself.  It became the biggest
> OS infestation by devious business practices shoehorning it into
> personal computers.
> 


Careful. Your paranoia is showing.  :-)

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/13/2013 9:30 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/13/2013 05:53 PM, David wrote:
>> I really*do not know*  exactly what the usage number means. But I do
>> 'know' that - or think that putting 'grandma' over to Linux, IMHO, would
>> not be a good idea.  :-)
> 
> *Shrug!*  As long as she's not too far away for you to come over and
> assist her, why not?  Would you rather have to deal with constant
> malware attacks and other Windows issues?  Personally, I wouldn't, but
> it's your call.


My mother, 'grandma', lives in central Florida. I live in Seattle.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Reindl Harald]

Am 14.04.2013 13:29, schrieb Tim:
> Over the years, I've watched the stats from my website, which isn't
> really aimed at computer users, but I'd still never claim it to be
> representative of the internet users on the whole.  I've seen MSIE fall
> off its perch, many years ago.  It used to be about 85-90%, fell down to
> about 65%, with the majority of the rest being Firefox, and things
> evened out once we got a third player.
> 
> So far, this month:
> Browser  Hits   Percentage
> Google Chrome8,134  26.3
> MS Internet Explorer 6,950  22.5
> Firefox  6,822  22.1

depends hardly from where your users are
in austria / germany firefox has much more users
and no, the numbers below are not from an IT site

43.88%  Mozilla
29.17%  Internet Explorer



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 13 April 2013, Joe Zeff sent:
> My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
> of its numbers from webserver hit logs.

Unless you can see access statistics from some very general purpose
website (i.e. one that everyone might use, like Google), as opposed to
the stats from specialist websites (web designers, Linux users), the
results are going to be horribly skewed.

Over the years, I've watched the stats from my website, which isn't
really aimed at computer users, but I'd still never claim it to be
representative of the internet users on the whole.  I've seen MSIE fall
off its perch, many years ago.  It used to be about 85-90%, fell down to
about 65%, with the majority of the rest being Firefox, and things
evened out once we got a third player.

So far, this month:
Browser  Hits   Percentage
Google Chrome8,134  26.3
MS Internet Explorer 6,950  22.5
Firefox  6,822  22.1
Safari   4,777  15.4
Mozilla  1,198   3.8
Android browser  1,086   3.5
Opera  806   2.6
Unknown670   2.1
LG (PDA/Phone browser)  92   0.2
IPhone  84   0.2
Others 239   0.7

Also, Windows is down considerably more than one might expect.

So far, this month:
OSHitsPercent
Windows   19,555  63.3
Macintosh  6,060  19.6
Linux  3,454  11.1
Unknown1,403   4.5
Java Mobile  203   0.6
BlackBerry76   0.2
OS/2  30   0
Java  23   0
Symbian OS17   0
Unknown Unix  15   0
Others22   0

Every now and then there's some interesting things in the access logs,
like a C64.  I'm not sure if someone's being humerous, or whether it the
actual device.  I know it can do it, just whether anybody would actually
bother...

In both sets of stats, it's supposed to have weeded out robots and only
acknowledged real users.  Though who knows how successful it is at
weeding out the faked headers.

I think that it's safe to say, that for a long time Windows will be
dominant, because it's foisted upon people.  It's the true computer
user, or the seriously disgruntled user, who's going to try Linux.  And
out of the disgruntled users, there will be those who'd rather pay for
Mac, or can't figure out how to do anything different for themselves.

My take from this is that Linux is in about the right spot, though it's
not doing itself much good with some the current change in design
trends.  There's no point being a clone.  To change OSs, I want and need
an actual alternative.  And unless you make an incredibly dumbed down
system, there's no point in trying to pick up the absolute masses of
clueless users.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 13 April 2013, David sent:
> I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
> Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
> that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
> wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might work".

And this is different to Windows, how?  There's an awful lot of
ham-fisted doddering about to *try* and make it do what it's supposed to
do.

> All I meant was that befer you 'move someone to Linux', of any kind, you
> need to understand that Linux use is still, mostly, limited to 'us geeks'

Again, how is this different from Windows?  Sure, hopeless computer
users can use any OS while it's working.  But it still takes a "geek" to
make Windows behave itself.  The average computer user hasn't a chance.

> All of which means? IMHO. Linux is cool but not really ready, yet, for
> grandma.

Nor is Windows.  Nor do I think it will ever be.

> Because? When $hit goes bad, or just does not work, with Linux it
> actually takes someone that knows what they are doing to fix it. Or
> reinstall it so that it works again.
> 
> IMHO? Grandma does not want to deal with that. My mother, grandma to my
> kids, would not want any part of that if she was still alive.

And can she fix Windows?  Does she know the need to defrag, can she do
it?  Can she repair the damage from a virus that her anti-virus software
didn't detect until it was too late?  Can she install new software?  Can
she sort out an install that didn't go right?  Can she debug why the
whole computer crashes and bluescreens while trying to do something
basic with the grandson's birthday video in Windows Movie Maker?  Or any
of the plethora of other day-to-day Windows screw-ups?

I'd be very surprised if the answer to any of that was "yes" for your
grandma, or any others.  I can't remember seeing any Windows home
computer that wasn't a mess.

Windows did not get where it is by being better, easier, more reliable,
nor any other reason that would justify itself.  It became the biggest
OS infestation by devious business practices shoehorning it into
personal computers.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

My apologies for not including a virus with this message, but I don't
use Windows.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 13 April 2013, Beartooth sent:
> RedHat, with clients who need massive support, doesn't want 
> Jill's business. But (sez me) there are enough of her now to support a
> start-up entrepreneur who does; and in a few years there'll be enough 
> more to support a thriving business, with that entrepreneur in the 
> catbird seat.
> 
> Am I making sense yet? 

Despite David's negativity, I see very little difference between what
you've colourfully described, and what's happened with the evil OS.

It isn't Microsoft that provides most of the technical support to a
plethora of incompetent users.  It's the son, student, or kid next door
that provides the freebie help to families and no-budget organisations.
It's the small computer shop that supplies the paid help to families.
It's the larger IT organisations that provide paid help to companies.
It's the in-house IT support that deal with in-house computing
problems...

So there really is no reason to believe that only Red Hat might provide
paid technical support, nor that others won't get involved with the
different levels of support that different levels of users need.

And compared to some of the resources that people access to sort out
their own Windows problems, this list is a much better resource.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.4-102.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Mar 24 13:09:09 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

My apologies for not including a virus with this message, but I don't
use Windows.



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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/13/2013 05:53 PM, David wrote:

I really*do not know*  exactly what the usage number means. But I do
'know' that - or think that putting 'grandma' over to Linux, IMHO, would
not be a good idea.  :-)


*Shrug!*  As long as she's not too far away for you to come over and 
assist her, why not?  Would you rather have to deal with constant 
malware attacks and other Windows issues?  Personally, I wouldn't, but 
it's your call.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/13/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/13/2013 03:07 PM, David wrote:
>> I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
>> Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
>> that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
>> wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might
>> work".
>>
> 
> Yes.  I know.  However, there's always a few grains of wheat mixed in
> with the chaff; the trick is to figure out which suggestions to follow.
>  Generally, however, I've found that for somebody like me who knows
> something about Linux and just needs distro-specific advice, that's not
> too hard.
> 
>> Here you will see the latest usage numbers.
>>
>> "OS Platform Statistics and Trends"
>>
>> 
> 
> Interesting, and roughly twice what the Linux Counter suggests:
> http://linuxcounter.net/guessing.html
> 
> My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most
> of its numbers from webserver hit logs.


I really *do not know* exactly what the usage number means. But I do
'know' that - or think that putting 'grandma' over to Linux, IMHO, would
not be a good idea.  :-)

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/13/2013 03:07 PM, David wrote:

I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might work".



Yes.  I know.  However, there's always a few grains of wheat mixed in 
with the chaff; the trick is to figure out which suggestions to follow. 
 Generally, however, I've found that for somebody like me who knows 
something about Linux and just needs distro-specific advice, that's not 
too hard.



Here you will see the latest usage numbers.

"OS Platform Statistics and Trends"




Interesting, and roughly twice what the Linux Counter suggests: 
http://linuxcounter.net/guessing.html


My guess is that your reference counts servers, because mine gets most 
of its numbers from webserver hit logs.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/13/2013 5:31 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/13/2013 02:03 PM, David wrote:
>> Smartphones, which work, can do more than a Linux newbie with a broken
>> machine. And people in general, or the guy at Best Buy, can correct a
>> misbehaving phone or computer running Windows before you can find
>> someone to fix a screwed up Linux computer. Hmm... just where might you
>> find this Linux repairman anyway?
>>
> 
> I don't know about you, but if I were to put a friend or relative onto
> Linux (as I did for my sister) I'd be their first-line tech support guy,
> but YMMV.


And when 'you get too old' to help?  :-)



>> Since you are here on Fedora I will grant that you are familiar with
>> Fedora. You do know that the various distributions are different? Means?
>> An*expert*  in Fedora Linux might be / could be lost on a Ubuntu system.
>> Or a Mageia system. Or "name goes here' Linux system?
> 
> My sister uses Ubuntu.  I have an account at the Ubuntu forums to help
> me learn what I need when it's distro-specific.  And, my .sig there
> says, in part, "I don't use Ubuntu, I just support it."


I actually know several (nine) 'old time Linux' users and some are ex
Redhat employes as well as commercial (as in paid sys admins) that say
that the Ubuntu list is full of useless information. Much of it flat out
wrong. Careful. The usual tip off, they say, is "Try this. It might work".

All I meant was that befer you 'move someone to Linux', of any kind, you
need to understand that Linux use is still, mostly, limited to 'us geeks'

Here you will see the latest usage numbers.

"OS Platform Statistics and Trends"



If you look at the latest numbers, March 2013, you will see that there
are more than two times the number of users of Mac over Linux. I don't
actually know anyone that uses a Mac. Do you? And that the Linux
'number' is *all* of the different Linux distributions.  From the 'A's'
to 'Z's.'

All of which means? IMHO. Linux is cool but not really ready, yet, for
grandma.

Because? When $hit goes bad, or just does not work, with Linux it
actually takes someone that knows what they are doing to fix it. Or
reinstall it so that it works again.

IMHO? Grandma does not want to deal with that. My mother, grandma to my
kids, would not want any part of that if she was still alive.
-- 

  David
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/13/2013 02:13 PM, Bill Oliver wrote:


Moving friends and family members to linux is a different issue
altogether.  It has nothing to do with support, and everything to do
with usability and apps.  What matters is where they can run Quicken and
TurboTax. Sure, if everything becomes and Android appliance, then those
of us who know a bit of linux can help them out, just like I can futz
around with my wife's Mac.  But we'll never make money out of it.  If
they are friends and family, you really can't charge them, and if
they're not, then it's probably not worth the hassle for what they would
pay.


Pizza, chocolate-chip cookies or other snacks are often the unit of 
payment in this case.

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Joe Zeff]

On 04/13/2013 02:03 PM, David wrote:

Smartphones, which work, can do more than a Linux newbie with a broken
machine. And people in general, or the guy at Best Buy, can correct a
misbehaving phone or computer running Windows before you can find
someone to fix a screwed up Linux computer. Hmm... just where might you
find this Linux repairman anyway?



I don't know about you, but if I were to put a friend or relative onto 
Linux (as I did for my sister) I'd be their first-line tech support guy, 
but YMMV.



Since you are here on Fedora I will grant that you are familiar with
Fedora. You do know that the various distributions are different? Means?
An*expert*  in Fedora Linux might be / could be lost on a Ubuntu system.
Or a Mageia system. Or "name goes here' Linux system?


My sister uses Ubuntu.  I have an account at the Ubuntu forums to help 
me learn what I need when it's distro-specific.  And, my .sig there 
says, in part, "I don't use Ubuntu, I just support it."

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013, Beartooth wrote:


On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:15:34 -0400, David wrote:


On 4/13/2013 2:46 PM, Beartooth wrote:



There is a real opportunity here for somebody. An old adage says
"Find a need, and fill it."

As the Baby Boomers retire, there will be an increasing number,
well content with the situation Paul Frields describes, who have life
partners whom they expect to outlive them. The astute ones should be
thinking about adopting an OS in time for those partners to get used to
it.

Fwiw, I estimate that there are enough now for somebody to get an
affordable support system for CentOS, SciLi, et alii off the ground.




Sounds a little lame dude. You want to switch grandma to CentOS which
would surely affect her and 'the granddaughter' being able to share
kitten pictures? And, if / when she has problems and she asks 'the
neighbor kid' for help and he looks at the computer and asks 'what the
hell is this'?  :-)


Not at all. Grandma doesn't come into it. Jack & Jill (both power
users at work, where they had layers of IT backup) are retired, and run
Fedora now.

Jack (their ersatz for Tech Support) is at home in these Frieldian
media; so they're fine while his health lasts. He wants Jill not to have
to stoop to some lesser OS if she outlives him, as the actuaries expect.

But Jill loves golf and racquetball, not computers. So Jack puts
her on SciLi or CentOS, while he's still hale & hearty. She gets used to
it, and can do her email, browsing, and other routine stuff by herself.

 When she does hit a problem, she'll be able to hire neighbor
kids, or students at the nearby college, ad hoc; but it'd be handier to
pick up the horn (or start an email, if that's not affected), and get a
bill.

RedHat, with clients who need massive support, doesn't want
Jill's business. But (sez me) there are enough of her now to support a
start-up entrepreneur who does; and in a few years there'll be enough
more to support a thriving business, with that entrepreneur in the
catbird seat.

Am I making sense yet?



I didn't think you were being this literal.  It makes sense for the neighbors 
you mention to act as cheap sysadmin support for local businesses who change to 
linux, and my personal opinion is that linux will become increasingly 
competitive for the small business IT base. Us old fogeys are in a great 
position to provide reasonably-priced IT support for that.

Moving friends and family members to linux is a different issue altogether.  It 
has nothing to do with support, and everything to do with usability and apps.  
What matters is where they can run Quicken and TurboTax. Sure, if everything 
becomes and Android appliance, then those of us who know a bit of linux can 
help them out, just like I can futz around with my wife's Mac.  But we'll never 
make money out of it.  If they are friends and family, you really can't charge 
them, and if they're not, then it's probably not worth the hassle for what they 
would pay.


billo
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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[David]

On 4/13/2013 4:49 PM, Beartooth wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:15:34 -0400, David wrote:
> 
>> On 4/13/2013 2:46 PM, Beartooth wrote:
>  
>>> There is a real opportunity here for somebody. An old adage says
>>> "Find a need, and fill it."
>>>
>>> As the Baby Boomers retire, there will be an increasing number,
>>> well content with the situation Paul Frields describes, who have life
>>> partners whom they expect to outlive them. The astute ones should be
>>> thinking about adopting an OS in time for those partners to get used to
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Fwiw, I estimate that there are enough now for somebody to get an
>>> affordable support system for CentOS, SciLi, et alii off the ground.
> 
>  
>> Sounds a little lame dude. You want to switch grandma to CentOS which
>> would surely affect her and 'the granddaughter' being able to share
>> kitten pictures? And, if / when she has problems and she asks 'the
>> neighbor kid' for help and he looks at the computer and asks 'what the
>> hell is this'?  :-)
> 
>   Not at all. Grandma doesn't come into it. Jack & Jill (both power 
> users at work, where they had layers of IT backup) are retired, and run 
> Fedora now. 
> 
>   Jack (their ersatz for Tech Support) is at home in these Frieldian 
> media; so they're fine while his health lasts. He wants Jill not to have 
> to stoop to some lesser OS if she outlives him, as the actuaries expect. 
> 
>   But Jill loves golf and racquetball, not computers. So Jack puts 
> her on SciLi or CentOS, while he's still hale & hearty. She gets used to 
> it, and can do her email, browsing, and other routine stuff by herself. 
> 
>When she does hit a problem, she'll be able to hire neighbor 
> kids, or students at the nearby college, ad hoc; but it'd be handier to 
> pick up the horn (or start an email, if that's not affected), and get a 
> bill.
> 
>   RedHat, with clients who need massive support, doesn't want 
> Jill's business. But (sez me) there are enough of her now to support a 
> start-up entrepreneur who does; and in a few years there'll be enough 
> more to support a thriving business, with that entrepreneur in the 
> catbird seat.
> 
>   Am I making sense yet?
> 



No. Actually it still sounds like a crap idea.

Smartphones, which work, can do more than a Linux newbie with a broken
machine. And people in general, or the guy at Best Buy, can correct a
misbehaving phone or computer running Windows before you can find
someone to fix a screwed up Linux computer. Hmm... just where might you
find this Linux repairman anyway?

Since you are here on Fedora I will grant that you are familiar with
Fedora. You do know that the various distributions are different? Means?
An *expert* in Fedora Linux might be / could be lost on a Ubuntu system.
Or a Mageia system. Or "name goes here' Linux system?

Like a 'Ford' mechanic might not be able to repair a Porsche.

IMO? It still sounds like a crap idea.
-- 

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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Beartooth]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:15:34 -0400, David wrote:

> On 4/13/2013 2:46 PM, Beartooth wrote:
 
>>  There is a real opportunity here for somebody. An old adage says
>> "Find a need, and fill it."
>> 
>>  As the Baby Boomers retire, there will be an increasing number,
>> well content with the situation Paul Frields describes, who have life
>> partners whom they expect to outlive them. The astute ones should be
>> thinking about adopting an OS in time for those partners to get used to
>> it.
>> 
>>  Fwiw, I estimate that there are enough now for somebody to get an
>> affordable support system for CentOS, SciLi, et alii off the ground.

 
> Sounds a little lame dude. You want to switch grandma to CentOS which
> would surely affect her and 'the granddaughter' being able to share
> kitten pictures? And, if / when she has problems and she asks 'the
> neighbor kid' for help and he looks at the computer and asks 'what the
> hell is this'?  :-)

Not at all. Grandma doesn't come into it. Jack & Jill (both power 
users at work, where they had layers of IT backup) are retired, and run 
Fedora now. 

Jack (their ersatz for Tech Support) is at home in these Frieldian 
media; so they're fine while his health lasts. He wants Jill not to have 
to stoop to some lesser OS if she outlives him, as the actuaries expect. 

But Jill loves golf and racquetball, not computers. So Jack puts 
her on SciLi or CentOS, while he's still hale & hearty. She gets used to 
it, and can do her email, browsing, and other routine stuff by herself. 

 When she does hit a problem, she'll be able to hire neighbor 
kids, or students at the nearby college, ad hoc; but it'd be handier to 
pick up the horn (or start an email, if that's not affected), and get a 
bill.

RedHat, with clients who need massive support, doesn't want 
Jill's business. But (sez me) there are enough of her now to support a 
start-up entrepreneur who does; and in a few years there'll be enough 
more to support a thriving business, with that entrepreneur in the 
catbird seat.

Am I making sense yet?

-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is.


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Re: Fedora vs RHEL

[Bill Oliver]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013, Beartooth wrote:


On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:14:09 +0100, Tethys wrote:


On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Paul W. Frields 
wrote:


[] what you get for support is, essentially,
answers people are willing to give you for free here, in forums, in
IRC, and so on.  If you install CentOS or SL, I believe the answer is
roughly the same. [] You, and your boss, have to be willing to
live with that definition of support.


The annoying thing is, I'd *gladly* pay Red Hat for support, if they'd
charge me a sensible amount. I'm not a multinational corporation. I'm a
home user with a single server, but it's important to me. It's currently
running CentOS and has a number of problems. I'd install RHEL in a
heartbeat to get support for it. But given the minimum Red Hat support
charge is several thousand, it's simply out of my price range :-(


There is a real opportunity here for somebody. An old adage says
"Find a need, and fill it."

As the Baby Boomers retire, there will be an increasing number,
well content with the situation Paul Frields describes, who have life
partners whom they expect to outlive them. The astute ones should be
thinking about adopting an OS in time for those partners to get used to
it.

Fwiw, I estimate that there are enough now for somebody to get an
affordable support system for CentOS, SciLi, et alii off the ground.

--
Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is.



Heh.  Well, that's essentially what I did when I left the military.  I used to work at a 
place called the "Armed Forces Institute of Pathology" (AFIP).  One of my 
duties was to establish and run a small internal network that I and some other scientists 
cobbled together in the late 1980s.  Over the years, our stability, performance, and 
management policy  was such that more and more activities moved from the regular DoD 
network to ours.

When I left in 2003, the network was taken over by some contractors hired by 
the Pentagon who started enforcing management policies that were very good for 
efficiency of administration, but very bad for small scientific projects(and, 
because of some human factors issues, worse for security).  So the scientists 
pooled some grant money and hired me to work remotely from the town I'd moved 
to.  They had folk there who could do the stuff that required touching machines 
or stringing cable, and I did OS upgrades, security, network monitoring and 
remote management, etc.  It worked out well for about six years, until the 
activity finally shut down under the Base Closing and Realignment Act.

It was a nice, but not huge, chunk of change for me for me, and it was both 
much cheaper and more practical than trying to deal with one-policy-fits-all 
integrators hired by the Pentagon -- and I beat their socks off in terms of 
intrusions, performance, stability and cost.

Unfortunately, having this succeed depends a *lot* on having users who have some sophistication, or 
at least a good idea of what the responsibilities are, and who has to pick up the ball when a 
problem moves beyond your mandate.  In this instance, my clients were former colleagues, many of 
whom had sysadmin skills but simply didn't have the time or inclination to do the grunt sysadmin 
work (which, even though I think it's fun, can be amazingly boring sometimes).  And, I had enough 
understanding of what they were doing to figure out ways to accommodate them without sacrificing 
security.  Another activity approached me to do "the same" for them, but it soon became 
clear it wasn't the same at all.  They wanted a degree of support I thought was exploitative for 
what they were wanting to pay, and didn't understand that I needed flexibility with respect to 
responding to trivial issues -- since I had a "real" job that got first priority.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there isn't a zillion folk in their late 
50s-early 70s who would love  spend a few hours a week playing with a network 
for knockin' around cash.

billo

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