Re: Java EE8 Status
It sounds like you will be making major bug bounty savings. Even if you offered $40 per bug. Although an IT professional who had the where abouts to tackle a bug probably wouldn't swat a real fly for 40 bux let alone a virtual bug. Z. https://www.backbutton.co.uk/ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ♡۶♡۶ ♡۶ On Sat, 23 Jan 2021, 17:28 Som Lima, wrote: > https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 > > This book is on par with any professional $3000 per week course. > > for example He explains broken IDE setup errors and solutions which are > relevant even with latest software versions, three years later. > > With this book he has left no excuse to log on to an emailing list like > this and ask why the right compiler isn't compiling. > > He has everything covered and it really does take you from novice to > professional. > > Even the helloworld uses features I have not seen anywhere else in the > intros. > > Thanks mate ! for the heads up. > > > On Wed, 13 Jan 2021, 07:25 nikita.zinov...@gmail.com, < > nikita.zinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Will, that is a really interesting read, thank you! >> >> Speaking of modern JSF, I really enjoyed reading a 2018 book: >> "The Definitive Guide to JSF in Java EE 8: Building Web Applications >> with JavaServer Faces 1st ed. Edition" >> by Scholtz, Bauke, Tijms, Arjan >> Here's one of the links to it >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 >> >> It covers modern enhancements and quite a bit of complicated history of >> JSF. >> >> --- >> In one of our projects we nicely used a combination of >> https://freemarker.apache.org/ as a templating engine >> and JAX-RS, but I didn't like the fact that freemarker does not >> support Expression Language (JSR 341, >> https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=341), >> I think this fits into the action framework concept. >> >> But I also tend to think JSF 2.1+, especially 2.3+ is a good choice, >> although it takes some time to learn but there are nice textbooks on >> it! >> >> My 2 cents, >> >> Nikita >> >> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:50, Will Hartung wrote: >> > >> > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:31 AM Som Lima >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. >> >> >> >> I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus >> question if you please. >> >> >> >> It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't >> believe >> >> It is part of EE. >> >> >> >> Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? >> > >> > >> > Formally, Struts in any form has nothing to with JEE. It's only a >> competitor to a portion of Spring. >> > >> > Struts 1 needs to die in a fire. It should remain only to be held up as >> an example of things not to do, especially today. It's single claim to fame >> back in the day was simply that it arrived first. Struts 1 is awful, IMHO. >> Modern JSP and Servlets alone are far better, and there are much better >> frameworks. Struts II is a vast improvement and related to Strut 1 in name >> only. I would put them both aside, frankly. >> > >> > In JEE, you have JSP 2.x + Servlets and JSF. JSP 2.x is, IMHO, one of >> the finest web application templating systems out there. JSP + Tag files + >> Expresion Language is really powerful. If you want a templating language >> for other things, JSP is a rough fit. But if you want one for web pages, >> it's really remarkable. >> > >> > That said, modern JSF is really amazing. It's really powerful, but it >> certainly comes with complexity. JSF is a true modular and component based >> framework that scary powerful abstractions can be laid upon. Most people >> don't take it there, but the underlying capability is there. If you were to >> go with a more server side rendering system, JSF is very viable. >> > >> > There's been calls for a JEE standard MVC framework. Struts II was >> considered an MVC framework. The term "Action Framework" is another term of >> art for it. That effort stalled and derailed when Oracle dumped JEE on to >> the world. I don't know the current status. Spring has an action/MVC >> framework as well. JAX-RS with a little work is a pretty usable action >> framework. >> > >> > Today, most folks seem to trend to javascript heavy, single page apps >> with JSON backend services. In that case, you don't need much of anything >> server side. I can not speak to those, as that's not my area of expertise. >> As a rule, I find most modern webapps to be not very good. There needs to >> be a balance between the heavy pages and static pages with live controls. >> In that realm, I think JSF is a better fit, but I have not worked on such >> an app in some time. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Will Hartung >> >
Re: Java EE8 Status
https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 This book is on par with any professional $3000 per week course. for example He explains broken IDE setup errors and solutions which are relevant even with latest software versions, three years later. With this book he has left no excuse to log on to an emailing list like this and ask why the right compiler isn't compiling. He has everything covered and it really does take you from novice to professional. Even the helloworld uses features I have not seen anywhere else in the intros. Thanks mate ! for the heads up. On Wed, 13 Jan 2021, 07:25 nikita.zinov...@gmail.com, < nikita.zinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > Will, that is a really interesting read, thank you! > > Speaking of modern JSF, I really enjoyed reading a 2018 book: > "The Definitive Guide to JSF in Java EE 8: Building Web Applications > with JavaServer Faces 1st ed. Edition" > by Scholtz, Bauke, Tijms, Arjan > Here's one of the links to it > https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 > > It covers modern enhancements and quite a bit of complicated history of > JSF. > > --- > In one of our projects we nicely used a combination of > https://freemarker.apache.org/ as a templating engine > and JAX-RS, but I didn't like the fact that freemarker does not > support Expression Language (JSR 341, > https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=341), > I think this fits into the action framework concept. > > But I also tend to think JSF 2.1+, especially 2.3+ is a good choice, > although it takes some time to learn but there are nice textbooks on > it! > > My 2 cents, > > Nikita > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:50, Will Hartung wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:31 AM Som Lima > wrote: > >> > >> > >> My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. > >> > >> I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus > question if you please. > >> > >> It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't > believe > >> It is part of EE. > >> > >> Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? > > > > > > Formally, Struts in any form has nothing to with JEE. It's only a > competitor to a portion of Spring. > > > > Struts 1 needs to die in a fire. It should remain only to be held up as > an example of things not to do, especially today. It's single claim to fame > back in the day was simply that it arrived first. Struts 1 is awful, IMHO. > Modern JSP and Servlets alone are far better, and there are much better > frameworks. Struts II is a vast improvement and related to Strut 1 in name > only. I would put them both aside, frankly. > > > > In JEE, you have JSP 2.x + Servlets and JSF. JSP 2.x is, IMHO, one of > the finest web application templating systems out there. JSP + Tag files + > Expresion Language is really powerful. If you want a templating language > for other things, JSP is a rough fit. But if you want one for web pages, > it's really remarkable. > > > > That said, modern JSF is really amazing. It's really powerful, but it > certainly comes with complexity. JSF is a true modular and component based > framework that scary powerful abstractions can be laid upon. Most people > don't take it there, but the underlying capability is there. If you were to > go with a more server side rendering system, JSF is very viable. > > > > There's been calls for a JEE standard MVC framework. Struts II was > considered an MVC framework. The term "Action Framework" is another term of > art for it. That effort stalled and derailed when Oracle dumped JEE on to > the world. I don't know the current status. Spring has an action/MVC > framework as well. JAX-RS with a little work is a pretty usable action > framework. > > > > Today, most folks seem to trend to javascript heavy, single page apps > with JSON backend services. In that case, you don't need much of anything > server side. I can not speak to those, as that's not my area of expertise. > As a rule, I find most modern webapps to be not very good. There needs to > be a balance between the heavy pages and static pages with live controls. > In that realm, I think JSF is a better fit, but I have not worked on such > an app in some time. > > > > Regards, > > > > Will Hartung >
Re: Java EE8 Status
On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 7:27 AM HRH wrote: > > However, an observation that caught my attention on StackOverflow is that > the highest percentage of the activities (post and replies) on the > technologies I mentioned earlier took place between 2009 to 2015, followed > by a drastic drop onward, so I am not sure how to construe this sharp drop. > Does this mean, the majority of the Java EE developers now have a matured > skillset and they do not need to ask those “how-to” questions anymore, not > many web-applications being developed across the board, Java developers are > shifting to other development areas like AI, standalone apps on small > devices, etc.—or they are gradually migrated/migrating to other non-Java > platforms (i.e. Python)? > The big move has been to Javascript top to bottom, using Single page apps in the browser and Javascript (ala Node) on the back end. I am not keen in that world. JS has been reinventing the wheel much like Java did in the 90's and 2000's. "Make the world JavaScript". I can't disagree too much with that call. Early on, when I originally chose Java for a project it was because of JSP and Servlets. Specifically, JSPs WERE Servlets, just in a different form. This universality was important as they could all be treated the same. Having a Java stack from top to bottom I felt was important to leverage the network effect of the staff. What I did not want was someone with a XXX problem unable to talk to someone else because they only knew YYY. This was my concern at the time with the Microsoft stack of mixing ASP and C++ and VB (pre .Net). I wanted the team to have the same footing. In fact, I was quite vocal, years later, when someone decided they "just had to" use Clojure for a component of the system. Now, I'm a Lisp guy, I like Lisp, I can see the charms of Clojure. But if we kept that, we would have had 20 Java folks, and 1 Clojure guy. Inevitably, the Clojure guy left, and we had 20 Java folks and no Clojure folks. And, naturally, we later had some issues with the Clojure code that took far too long to resolve because we didn't have the expertise in house. Whatever potential advantages that brought in development (which I assert were minimal, since I rewrote the Clojure code in Java, which I was told wasn "impossible" to "prove" that it could be done, and, no it was not as elegant as the Clojure was, but totally serviceable), were lost when we had to fight that issue later. So, I can understand the desire for consistency across the team and code sharing and reuse across the platform.
Re: Java EE8 Status
Recently (using the COVID downtime)I started to look at Java EE (JSF, EJB, CDI, JPA, and so on) using the Java EE7 tutorial. I am so amazed by the drastic improvements to the technologycompared to the time I used to develop web applications with Java, JDBC, J2EE,and JSPs technologies before I retired in 2003 and pursued other ventures. TheJava EE is truly a mature technology today, making web-development a cinchwithout writing a litany of XML descriptors. The power of annotations, cdi, jsflibraries (i.e. core, facelets, html, etc.), managed beans, and the JPA trulyreduces the development overhead. The last app I developed before leaving thesoftware industry was a contact management application for the field financialbrokers, which took a team of 5 developers, 3 OO designers, 2 UX designers, and2 business analysts over 14 months from start to end. I was able to mimic thecore of that application using Java EE 8, on Glassfish with Eclipselink bymyself in 6 weeks without using a single line of Javascript for pagevalidations. The object/relational mapping and the power of EntityManger in thepersistence context reduced the overhead of the back end development by far.One of the euphorias of this exercise was the absence of Database connectionand a myriad of SQL statements in the code, and I can't rave enough about theJPA's bean validations injunction with the exception handling mechanism put inplace. Although I had very few “Select and update” statements in the code, forthe most part, I put the onus on the EntityManager to give me the data Ineeded. I am looking into other technologies offered by the EE at the moment(i.e. JSON, WebSocket, etc) and I use StackOverflow extensively to find answerswhen needed. However, an observation that caught my attention on StackOverflowis that the highest percentage of the activities (post and replies) on thetechnologies I mentioned earlier took place between 2009 to 2015, followed by adrastic drop onward, so I am not sure how to construe this sharp drop. Doesthis mean, the majority of the Java EE developers now have a matured skillsetand they do not need to ask those “how-to” questions anymore, not manyweb-applications being developed across the board, Java developers are shiftingto other development areas like AI, standalone apps on small devices, etc.—orthey are gradually migrated/migrating to other non-Java platforms (i.e.Python)? So, if I was a software developer looking to maintain a marketable skill set, I would heed this shift on the StackOverflow and try to get a goodunderstanding of it. Maybe it’s nothing or maybe it harbinger of an upcomingshift in the web-application area. I hope that Jakarta keeps the Java EE as aformidable contender against the newly emerging technologies in the comingyears. I started as a Fortran programmer using the punch card machines and sawmany programming languages debouch and supplanted by the new ones (Fortran, Pascal,Cobol, C, C++, etc.) but Java was different than those other ones, the wholeplatform gained momentum very early on and it seems that it is still the widelyused platform since the mid-’90s. Best wishes. On Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 10:55:23 AM GMT+3:30, nikita.zinov...@gmail.com wrote: Will, that is a really interesting read, thank you! Speaking of modern JSF, I really enjoyed reading a 2018 book: "The Definitive Guide to JSF in Java EE 8: Building Web Applications with JavaServer Faces 1st ed. Edition" by Scholtz, Bauke, Tijms, Arjan Here's one of the links to it https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 It covers modern enhancements and quite a bit of complicated history of JSF. --- In one of our projects we nicely used a combination of https://freemarker.apache.org/ as a templating engine and JAX-RS, but I didn't like the fact that freemarker does not support Expression Language (JSR 341, https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=341), I think this fits into the action framework concept. But I also tend to think JSF 2.1+, especially 2.3+ is a good choice, although it takes some time to learn but there are nice textbooks on it! My 2 cents, Nikita On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:50, Will Hartung wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:31 AM Som Lima wrote: >> >> >> My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. >> >> I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus >> question if you please. >> >> It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't believe >> It is part of EE. >> >> Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? > > > Formally, Struts in any form has nothing to with JEE. It's only a competitor > to a portion of Spring. > > Struts 1 needs to die in a fire. It should remain only to be held up as an > example of things not to do, especially today. It's single claim to fame back > in the day was simply that it arrived first. Struts 1 is awful, IMHO. Modern > JSP and
Re: Java EE8 Status
Will, that is a really interesting read, thank you! Speaking of modern JSF, I really enjoyed reading a 2018 book: "The Definitive Guide to JSF in Java EE 8: Building Web Applications with JavaServer Faces 1st ed. Edition" by Scholtz, Bauke, Tijms, Arjan Here's one of the links to it https://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-JSF-Java-Applications/dp/1484233867 It covers modern enhancements and quite a bit of complicated history of JSF. --- In one of our projects we nicely used a combination of https://freemarker.apache.org/ as a templating engine and JAX-RS, but I didn't like the fact that freemarker does not support Expression Language (JSR 341, https://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=341), I think this fits into the action framework concept. But I also tend to think JSF 2.1+, especially 2.3+ is a good choice, although it takes some time to learn but there are nice textbooks on it! My 2 cents, Nikita On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 18:50, Will Hartung wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:31 AM Som Lima wrote: >> >> >> My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. >> >> I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus >> question if you please. >> >> It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't believe >> It is part of EE. >> >> Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? > > > Formally, Struts in any form has nothing to with JEE. It's only a competitor > to a portion of Spring. > > Struts 1 needs to die in a fire. It should remain only to be held up as an > example of things not to do, especially today. It's single claim to fame back > in the day was simply that it arrived first. Struts 1 is awful, IMHO. Modern > JSP and Servlets alone are far better, and there are much better frameworks. > Struts II is a vast improvement and related to Strut 1 in name only. I would > put them both aside, frankly. > > In JEE, you have JSP 2.x + Servlets and JSF. JSP 2.x is, IMHO, one of the > finest web application templating systems out there. JSP + Tag files + > Expresion Language is really powerful. If you want a templating language for > other things, JSP is a rough fit. But if you want one for web pages, it's > really remarkable. > > That said, modern JSF is really amazing. It's really powerful, but it > certainly comes with complexity. JSF is a true modular and component based > framework that scary powerful abstractions can be laid upon. Most people > don't take it there, but the underlying capability is there. If you were to > go with a more server side rendering system, JSF is very viable. > > There's been calls for a JEE standard MVC framework. Struts II was considered > an MVC framework. The term "Action Framework" is another term of art for it. > That effort stalled and derailed when Oracle dumped JEE on to the world. I > don't know the current status. Spring has an action/MVC framework as well. > JAX-RS with a little work is a pretty usable action framework. > > Today, most folks seem to trend to javascript heavy, single page apps with > JSON backend services. In that case, you don't need much of anything server > side. I can not speak to those, as that's not my area of expertise. As a > rule, I find most modern webapps to be not very good. There needs to be a > balance between the heavy pages and static pages with live controls. In that > realm, I think JSF is a better fit, but I have not worked on such an app in > some time. > > Regards, > > Will Hartung - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Java EE8 Status
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:31 AM Som Lima wrote: > > My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. > > I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus > question if you please. > > It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't > believe > It is part of EE. > > Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? > Formally, Struts in any form has nothing to with JEE. It's only a competitor to a portion of Spring. Struts 1 needs to die in a fire. It should remain only to be held up as an example of things not to do, especially today. It's single claim to fame back in the day was simply that it arrived first. Struts 1 is awful, IMHO. Modern JSP and Servlets alone are far better, and there are much better frameworks. Struts II is a vast improvement and related to Strut 1 in name only. I would put them both aside, frankly. In JEE, you have JSP 2.x + Servlets and JSF. JSP 2.x is, IMHO, one of the finest web application templating systems out there. JSP + Tag files + Expresion Language is really powerful. If you want a templating language for other things, JSP is a rough fit. But if you want one for web pages, it's really remarkable. That said, modern JSF is really amazing. It's really powerful, but it certainly comes with complexity. JSF is a true modular and component based framework that scary powerful abstractions can be laid upon. Most people don't take it there, but the underlying capability is there. If you were to go with a more server side rendering system, JSF is very viable. There's been calls for a JEE standard MVC framework. Struts II was considered an MVC framework. The term "Action Framework" is another term of art for it. That effort stalled and derailed when Oracle dumped JEE on to the world. I don't know the current status. Spring has an action/MVC framework as well. JAX-RS with a little work is a pretty usable action framework. Today, most folks seem to trend to javascript heavy, single page apps with JSON backend services. In that case, you don't need much of anything server side. I can not speak to those, as that's not my area of expertise. As a rule, I find most modern webapps to be not very good. There needs to be a balance between the heavy pages and static pages with live controls. In that realm, I think JSF is a better fit, but I have not worked on such an app in some time. Regards, Will Hartung
Re: Java EE8 Status
On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 11:13 PM nikita.zinov...@gmail.com < nikita.zinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm really amazed that Payara finally made it to a fully clustered App > server setting, people say they have seamless green/blue deployments there > with a cluster of 2-3 payara servers. I wish we could also get a clustered > PostgreSQL or an equivalent... > We've been running a cluster of GF/Payara servers for years. It was an adhoc cluster, not using the in built GF facilities for deployment. Rather, we just did sticky load balancing with little session sharing, and JMS topics for crossleg communication. It was originally done for availability, keeping the system up if one leg were to go down, so it was just two legs. We eventually had to move to 3 for performance reasons as a single machine could not take the traffic. GF has some nice clustering facilities, but for us it was simply easier to manage the deploys to the legs manually than to practice and learn the GF kit. We were live and just not inconvenienced enough to try to pursue it. We also run an OpenMQ cluster across all of the machines. We had good success with OpenMQ, but we certainly beat the heck out of it and have had different issues surrounding it. The back end is Postgres that has a live streaming replica. The front end is HAProxy. We are running 3 Payara instances on each leg, each supporting a different part of the application. We also had an independent cluster of 3 Payara instances running a specific service that has since been migrated to a completely different service. All of these were integrated via SAML SSO. We broke the applications up in Payara mostly for monitoring and independence. When things went awry it was much easier to find which application was misbehaving when they were isolated like that. But we certainly had scenarios in the past in lower load environments where everything was on one instance of Payara. The dev server, for example, had everything in a single instance. > (PostgreSQL offering, say, in Google cloud seems to be nice, scalable, > auto backed-up, but not clustered, it seems Oracle Autonomous DB can now do > it, but I never had chance to try Oracle Cloud and have no idea how > expensive it is, probably, not so much... Oh, and it seems there's also > Google's Spanner DB). > AWS Aurora Postgres is an impressive piece of kit. It's quite remarkable how a database implementation can change when you assume you have dozens of machines, stable memory, high bandwidth networking, and geographical isolation. If you're friendly to AWS, it's worth considering, but you can not use a cloud database without the rest of your application co-deployed in the same infrastructure. The lag will crush you. Regards, Will Hartung
Re: Java EE8 Status
My concerns layed to rest with my direction set. I feel I must ask one more question from this knowledge pool. A bonus question if you please. It is my understanding struts is a competitor to spring but I don't believe It is part of EE. Where does struts1 + 2 fit into the Big picture you guys painted ? On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, 00:22 Laszlo Kishalmi, wrote: > Java EE had bad reputation as it was over designed. Big companies trying > to sell pricey support for their bloated "good for everything" Application > Servers which required high level of knowledge as entry point for > developers. > > Then Spring came with it's bean context. It run on Tomcat and if you bind > that with a persistent engine Hibernate, then you are done for the most use > cases. So SprIng+Tomcat+Hibernate was "Java's LAMP stack" in after 2005 or > so that became the de-facto standard. By the time the annotation based Java > EE 5 came out it did not make too much difference, even if the offered > injection based programming model was way more efficient than the xml based > Spring contexts. I just did one of our internal system port to Java EE 5 > from Spring around 2007. I could remove 40%+ of its code (the original code > was around 600k lines). > > Also by that time we had several teams really proficient with > Spring+Tomcat+Hibernate, so it was easier to get a project accepted and > delivered with that technology. In the meantime, Spring got the injection > and finally embedded Tomcat into Spring Boot. > On 1/11/21 3:53 PM, Som Lima wrote: > > > The journey with EE leads to success ! > > > So jakarta EE and Spring.io > are the two leading competitors in the same paradigm with popularity d) > between the two 20:80 in favour of spring.io. > > Two of the popular opensource IDEs NetBeans and Eclipse IDE for java EE > developers cater specifically for EE developers. > > Eclipse with only a plugin (Spring Tool Suite) for spring development. > > Nevertheless why is there a popularity tilt towards spring.io ? > > Thanks in advance for generous response. > > > > On Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 08:21 nikita.zinov...@gmail.com, < > nikita.zinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Josh, thank you very much for your answer! >> >> Could you please elaborate more on the benefits of using Netbeans with >> Jakarta EE compared to Intellij Idea? >> I suspect that Netbeans supports hot deploy features well for example. >> I'm mainly planning to use it with Payara (former Glassfish) for my >> and my friends pet project. >> >> Thank you so much, it's a really interesting read, >> >> with kind regards, >> >> Nikita Zinoviev >> >> p.s. Unfortunately, even though I live in a 5 million city, everybody >> is using Spring, 80% of (our local) Joker java conference is about >> Spring, and only 10-20% (1-2 talks) about Java EE. Its really hard to >> "fight" off the Spring community. >> >> On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 at 22:35, Josh Juneau wrote: >> > >> > Hi Som, >> > >> > >> > >> > Great to meet you, and thanks for the post. I believe that if you were >> to invest time into learning how to develop Java EE 8 and “Jakarta EE” >> applications with NetBeans, then you would be on a path to success. Java >> EE 8 is still modern, although it will be outdated within the coming >> years. However, if you look toward development with the Jakarta EE >> Platform (newer Java EE platform that was open sourced under Eclipse >> Foundation), then I think you will find that it fits into your “b” >> category: Established and stable. Jakarta EE 8 uses the same API as Java >> EE 8, so you should be able to translate any tutorials of Java EE over to >> Jakarta EE without much trouble. Jakarta EE 9 introduces a new namespace, >> which will change things a bit, although the APIs will remain much the same >> as the standard Java EE/Jakarta EE 8 APIs. >> > >> > >> > >> > Hope this helps. >> > >> > >> > >> > Josh Juneau >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Som Lima >> > Date: Friday, January 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM >> > To: NetBeans Mailing List >> > Subject: Java EE8 Status >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > >> > >> > I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :) >> > >> > >> > >> > If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8 >> technologies with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming my >> target domain is e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Would I be on a journey to master >> > >> > technologies which are on the ? : >> > >> > a) Bleeding Edge, >> > >> > b) Established stable leading edge , >> > >> > c) outdated (miss the boat) >> > >> > d) popular >> > >> > e) obscure >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks in advance for your generous input. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
Re: Java EE8 Status
Laszlo and Will, Thank you so much for sharing! Its great to know I am not alone with my love to JavaEE. I fell in love with it in 2003 while reading Mastering EJB II (2nd edition), XML didn't scare me at that time as I knew XPATH 2.0/XSLT and XMLSchema. By the way, there's a third edition updated to EJB 3.1, annotations, etc. Then I had a break in my programming carrier in favor of pure mathematics. In 2008-9 while again working as a Software Engineer at Sun Microsystems at Java Platform Group SQE team I made up a Java EE 5 application, to monitor test job execution for Java SE, we had 1 jobs a day running over 1000 servers spread through Saint-Petersburg and two locations in US and a bit of UK. Then a year later together with a colleague we wrote a Jenkins-like application to distribute performance test runs across several labs around the world. Later it became more focused at test results storage and analysis (as we adopted those tonns of functional tests as well), and I ended up maintaining it for 7+ years. I guess till the Java part of the local (in the days of Oracle) office was closed in 2017. In the end we had a team of 4 people, feeling that JavaEE does its job well, but we never managed to get in touch with Glassfish people at Sun and even getting some engineering support for Oracle DB took 5+ years, I think only in 2016 we got some help... I always felt it is (like a bigapp) a good proof that JavaEE really works. I'm really amazed that Payara finally made it to a fully clustered App server setting, people say they have seamless green/blue deployments there with a cluster of 2-3 payara servers. I wish we could also get a clustered PostgreSQL or an equivalent... (PostgreSQL offering, say, in Google cloud seems to be nice, scalable, auto backed-up, but not clustered, it seems Oracle Autonomous DB can now do it, but I never had chance to try Oracle Cloud and have no idea how expensive it is, probably, not so much... Oh, and it seems there's also Google's Spanner DB). Nikita. On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 at 03:44, Will Hartung wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM Som Lima wrote: > >> >> Nevertheless why is there a popularity tilt towards spring.io ? >> > > Because it's popular. Popularity breeds popularity. > > JEE being standards based has always been hindered by the standards > process. You can't do anything "quickly" by committee, especially > committees with commitments by very large organizations. > > So, JEE, despite it's innovations, has always been "behind" things like > Hibernate and Spring. JEE borrows and is inspired by developments in those, > among others, projects as well. > > Spring is a single company, and original just a single vision, so was able > to move much more quickly. It was also "second adopter" effect in that it > was able to respond to early JEE which was very formal, and relied upon a > lot of governance in things like XML and such. JEE is REALLY powerful, and > has always been quite powerful, but many applications don't quite need that > power. So the flexibility of JEE can get in the way and make doing things > more laborious. > > Of course, that has changed much over the years, but Spring was able to > hold on by doing the job, having some "outsider" street cred, and, plus, > early on, it was "free". JBoss was the only real competitor in the EJB > space for a free server early on. Spring just needed Tomcat. > > Modern JEE, with tools like Wildfly and Payara, is in a great place. Even > with the upheaval of Oracle clinging to the javax namespace and the whole > "renaming" nonsense that stalled JEE for 1-2 years, it's till in a good > place because it started in a good place. It's super stable. It's honestly > a feature that stuff that has worked for 15-20 years is still working in > modern, maintained systems. > > But other advances, such as the micro profile, is keeping JEE current for > the more simplified use cases of just being a JSON RPC host deployed to a > container in the cloud. > > Mind, I'm a JEE guy. I've always been a JEE guy. I was giddy when Sun came > out and gave away Sun Enterprise Server v8, which was the prequel to > Glassfish. (GF was a rewrite.) I liked the idea of teams being able to use > the Sun Server for departmental applications in house without have to cough > up 100's of thousands of dollars for licenses. > > Make no mistake, JEE is, and was, powerful kit. Companies used to build > vast applications around Transaction Servers, and Transaction Servers were > niche and expensive. JEE gave Transaction Servers to everyone. > > I never warmed to JBoss back in the day. I never warmed to Hibernate. I > never warmed to Spring. Can't say why. Complexity, documentation, who > knows. I saw Spring as mostly equivalent to JEE, but JEE was running on > JBoss, Weblogic, WebSphere, Glassfish, and a host of other implementations > where Spring was just Spring. > > JEE is easy to use and robust. JAX-RS with CDI and Transactional Session >
Re: Java EE8 Status
Java EE had bad reputation as it was over designed. Big companies trying
to sell pricey support for their bloated "good for everything"
Application Servers which required high level of knowledge as entry
point for developers.
Then Spring came with it's bean context. It run on Tomcat and if you
bind that with a persistent engine Hibernate, then you are done for the
most use cases. So SprIng+Tomcat+Hibernate was "Java's LAMP stack" in
after 2005 or so that became the de-facto standard. By the time the
annotation based Java EE 5 came out it did not make too much difference,
even if the offered injection based programming model was way more
efficient than the xml based Spring contexts. I just did one of our
internal system port to Java EE 5 from Spring around 2007. I could
remove 40%+ of its code (the original code was around 600k lines).
Also by that time we had several teams really proficient with
Spring+Tomcat+Hibernate, so it was easier to get a project accepted and
delivered with that technology. In the meantime, Spring got the
injection and finally embedded Tomcat into Spring Boot.
On 1/11/21 3:53 PM, Som Lima wrote:
The journey with EE leads to success !
So jakarta EE and Spring.io
are the two leading competitors in the same paradigm with popularity
d) between the two 20:80 in favour of spring.io <http://spring.io>.
Two of the popular opensource IDEs NetBeans and Eclipse IDE for
java EE
developers cater specifically for EE developers.
Eclipse with only a plugin (Spring Tool Suite) for spring development.
Nevertheless why is there a popularity tilt towards spring.io
<http://spring.io> ?
Thanks in advance for generous response.
On Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 08:21 nikita.zinov...@gmail.com
<mailto:nikita.zinov...@gmail.com>, <mailto:nikita.zinov...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Josh, thank you very much for your answer!
Could you please elaborate more on the benefits of using Netbeans with
Jakarta EE compared to Intellij Idea?
I suspect that Netbeans supports hot deploy features well for example.
I'm mainly planning to use it with Payara (former Glassfish) for my
and my friends pet project.
Thank you so much, it's a really interesting read,
with kind regards,
Nikita Zinoviev
p.s. Unfortunately, even though I live in a 5 million city, everybody
is using Spring, 80% of (our local) Joker java conference is about
Spring, and only 10-20% (1-2 talks) about Java EE. Its really hard to
"fight" off the Spring community.
On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 at 22:35, Josh Juneau mailto:juneau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Som,
>
>
>
> Great to meet you, and thanks for the post. I believe that if
you were to invest time into learning how to develop Java EE 8 and
“Jakarta EE” applications with NetBeans, then you would be on a
path to success. Java EE 8 is still modern, although it will be
outdated within the coming years. However, if you look toward
development with the Jakarta EE Platform (newer Java EE platform
that was open sourced under Eclipse Foundation), then I think you
will find that it fits into your “b” category: Established and
stable. Jakarta EE 8 uses the same API as Java EE 8, so you
should be able to translate any tutorials of Java EE over to
Jakarta EE without much trouble. Jakarta EE 9 introduces a new
namespace, which will change things a bit, although the APIs will
remain much the same as the standard Java EE/Jakarta EE 8 APIs.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Josh Juneau
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Som Lima mailto:somplastic...@gmail.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM
> To: NetBeans Mailing List mailto:users@netbeans.apache.org>>
> Subject: Java EE8 Status
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :)
>
>
>
> If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8
technologies with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming
my target domain is e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications.
>
>
>
>
>
> Would I be on a journey to master
>
> technologies which are on the ? :
>
> a) Bleeding Edge,
>
> b) Established stable leading edge ,
>
> c) outdated (miss the boat)
>
> d) popular
>
> e) obscure
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your generous input.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Java EE8 Status
The journey with EE leads to success ! So jakarta EE and Spring.io are the two leading competitors in the same paradigm with popularity d) between the two 20:80 in favour of spring.io. Two of the popular opensource IDEs NetBeans and Eclipse IDE for java EE developers cater specifically for EE developers. Eclipse with only a plugin (Spring Tool Suite) for spring development. Nevertheless why is there a popularity tilt towards spring.io ? Thanks in advance for generous response. On Mon, 11 Jan 2021, 08:21 nikita.zinov...@gmail.com, < nikita.zinov...@gmail.com> wrote: > Josh, thank you very much for your answer! > > Could you please elaborate more on the benefits of using Netbeans with > Jakarta EE compared to Intellij Idea? > I suspect that Netbeans supports hot deploy features well for example. > I'm mainly planning to use it with Payara (former Glassfish) for my > and my friends pet project. > > Thank you so much, it's a really interesting read, > > with kind regards, > > Nikita Zinoviev > > p.s. Unfortunately, even though I live in a 5 million city, everybody > is using Spring, 80% of (our local) Joker java conference is about > Spring, and only 10-20% (1-2 talks) about Java EE. Its really hard to > "fight" off the Spring community. > > On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 at 22:35, Josh Juneau wrote: > > > > Hi Som, > > > > > > > > Great to meet you, and thanks for the post. I believe that if you were > to invest time into learning how to develop Java EE 8 and “Jakarta EE” > applications with NetBeans, then you would be on a path to success. Java > EE 8 is still modern, although it will be outdated within the coming > years. However, if you look toward development with the Jakarta EE > Platform (newer Java EE platform that was open sourced under Eclipse > Foundation), then I think you will find that it fits into your “b” > category: Established and stable. Jakarta EE 8 uses the same API as Java > EE 8, so you should be able to translate any tutorials of Java EE over to > Jakarta EE without much trouble. Jakarta EE 9 introduces a new namespace, > which will change things a bit, although the APIs will remain much the same > as the standard Java EE/Jakarta EE 8 APIs. > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > Josh Juneau > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Som Lima > > Date: Friday, January 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM > > To: NetBeans Mailing List > > Subject: Java EE8 Status > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :) > > > > > > > > If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8 > technologies with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming my > target domain is e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would I be on a journey to master > > > > technologies which are on the ? : > > > > a) Bleeding Edge, > > > > b) Established stable leading edge , > > > > c) outdated (miss the boat) > > > > d) popular > > > > e) obscure > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for your generous input. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Java EE8 Status
Josh, thank you very much for your answer! Could you please elaborate more on the benefits of using Netbeans with Jakarta EE compared to Intellij Idea? I suspect that Netbeans supports hot deploy features well for example. I'm mainly planning to use it with Payara (former Glassfish) for my and my friends pet project. Thank you so much, it's a really interesting read, with kind regards, Nikita Zinoviev p.s. Unfortunately, even though I live in a 5 million city, everybody is using Spring, 80% of (our local) Joker java conference is about Spring, and only 10-20% (1-2 talks) about Java EE. Its really hard to "fight" off the Spring community. On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 at 22:35, Josh Juneau wrote: > > Hi Som, > > > > Great to meet you, and thanks for the post. I believe that if you were to > invest time into learning how to develop Java EE 8 and “Jakarta EE” > applications with NetBeans, then you would be on a path to success. Java EE > 8 is still modern, although it will be outdated within the coming years. > However, if you look toward development with the Jakarta EE Platform (newer > Java EE platform that was open sourced under Eclipse Foundation), then I > think you will find that it fits into your “b” category: Established and > stable. Jakarta EE 8 uses the same API as Java EE 8, so you should be able > to translate any tutorials of Java EE over to Jakarta EE without much > trouble. Jakarta EE 9 introduces a new namespace, which will change things a > bit, although the APIs will remain much the same as the standard Java > EE/Jakarta EE 8 APIs. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Josh Juneau > > > > > > From: Som Lima > Date: Friday, January 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM > To: NetBeans Mailing List > Subject: Java EE8 Status > > > > Hi, > > > > I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :) > > > > If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8 technologies > with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming my target domain is > e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications. > > > > > > Would I be on a journey to master > > technologies which are on the ? : > > a) Bleeding Edge, > > b) Established stable leading edge , > > c) outdated (miss the boat) > > d) popular > > e) obscure > > > > > > Thanks in advance for your generous input. > > > > > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@netbeans.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: Java EE8 Status
Hi Som, Great to meet you, and thanks for the post. I believe that if you were to invest time into learning how to develop Java EE 8 and “Jakarta EE” applications with NetBeans, then you would be on a path to success. Java EE 8 is still modern, although it will be outdated within the coming years. However, if you look toward development with the Jakarta EE Platform (newer Java EE platform that was open sourced under Eclipse Foundation), then I think you will find that it fits into your “b” category: Established and stable. Jakarta EE 8 uses the same API as Java EE 8, so you should be able to translate any tutorials of Java EE over to Jakarta EE without much trouble. Jakarta EE 9 introduces a new namespace, which will change things a bit, although the APIs will remain much the same as the standard Java EE/Jakarta EE 8 APIs. Hope this helps. Josh Juneau From: Som Lima Date: Friday, January 8, 2021 at 12:57 PM To: NetBeans Mailing List Subject: Java EE8 Status Hi, I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :) If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8 technologies with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming my target domain is e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications. Would I be on a journey to master technologies which are on the ? : a) Bleeding Edge, b) Established stable leading edge , c) outdated (miss the boat) d) popular e) obscure Thanks in advance for your generous input.
Java EE8 Status
Hi, I don't get much time to go to software development conferences :) If I was to invest my COVID-19 stay at home time in JAVA EE8 technologies with Netbeans as one of those technologies. Assuming my target domain is e-commerce distributed dynamic web applications. Would I be on a journey to master technologies which are on the ? : a) Bleeding Edge, b) Established stable leading edge , c) outdated (miss the boat) d) popular e) obscure Thanks in advance for your generous input.
