Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
jomali wrote: What do you mean There is no context sensitive help? On the help menu, the second item down is Context Sensitive Help. When you click it, a question mark is displayed that brings up the relevant help page for the clicked-on UI item. Doesn't work for me and not for the want of trying, Neither in Linux or Windows. -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v The boys dressed themselves, hid their accoutrements, and went off grieving that there were no outlaws any more, and wondering what modern civilization could claim to have done to compensate for their loss. They said they would rather be outlaws a year in Sherwood Forest than President of the United States forever. Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
On Feb 6, 2010, at 05:09 , jomali wrote: What do you mean There is no context sensitive help? On the help menu, the second item down is Context Sensitive Help. When you click it, a question mark is displayed that brings up the relevant help page for the clicked-on UI item. John John, there is actually no context-sensitive help in the Mac version, and, as I understand it, the help files must be specially installed on at least one of the other platforms. //J - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
James, Please don't retail misinformation. I run the Mac version (2.6.7). I have it open right now. When I click on the Menu item (or use Shift-F1), a question mark appears. When I click on a UI element, the help window for that element opens in my browser, at url file://localhost/tmp/skl/Gimp.app/Contents/Resources/share/gimp/2.0/help/en/index.html. If you open the Gimp.app package and navigate to Contents/Resources/share/gimp/2.0/help/en/, you will find the help files. This, by the way, is precisely the way Photoshop Elements help works (I just tried it on my laptop). John On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:53 AM, James Wilde james.wi...@sunde-wilde.comwrote: On Feb 6, 2010, at 05:09 , jomali wrote: What do you mean There is no context sensitive help? On the help menu, the second item down is Context Sensitive Help. When you click it, a question mark is displayed that brings up the relevant help page for the clicked-on UI item. John John, there is actually no context-sensitive help in the Mac version, and, as I understand it, the help files must be specially installed on at least one of the other platforms. //J - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
On Feb 7, 2010, at 18:50 , jomali wrote: James, Please don't retail misinformation. I run the Mac version (2.6.7). I have it open right now. When I click on the Menu item (or use Shift-F1), a question mark appears. When I click on a UI element, the help window for that element opens in my browser, at url file://localhost/tmp/skl/Gimp.app/Contents/Resources/share/gimp/2.0/help/en/index.html. If you open the Gimp.app package and navigate to Contents/Resources/share/gimp/2.0/help/en/, you will find the help files. This, by the way, is precisely the way Photoshop Elements help works (I just tried it on my laptop). John OK, John, that's good news. I'm still running 2.2.9, and for that I have been told that there is no context sensitive help. It's possible to fix it, but it requires extensive programming skills according to John Rails (sp). //J - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
M Henri Day wrote: Many list members will find this story (in German - Google Translate is your friend) published on a site for webmasters ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykwtj22 ) of interest. Certain others, I suspect, will make use of the opportunity to be outraged There is a big difference between the 'installed' base and the 'user' base. For example, in my office there are eight PCs and six users. All eight PCs have OOo installed. I am the only OOo user. The others all prefer that other office suite. Bit like the Linux thing, really. Many have it installed. Very few actually use it in their work. Cheers -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
2010/2/5 Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com M Henri Day wrote: Many list members will find this story (in German - Google Translate is your friend) published on a site for webmasters ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykwtj22 ) of interest. Certain others, I suspect, will make use of the opportunity to be outraged There is a big difference between the 'installed' base and the 'user' base. For example, in my office there are eight PCs and six users. All eight PCs have OOo installed. I am the only OOo user. The others all prefer that other office suite. Bit like the Linux thing, really. Many have it installed. Very few actually use it in their work. Agree with you, Pierre, but remember that your observation cuts both ways - I have three computers running six OS here at home, including four different versions of Windows products. MS Office 2007 is installed on all of them, as is OOo, but I only use the latter (save when I'm helping people with difficulties in using the former over the telephone). As many computers are purchased with MS Office installed, but presumably all instances of OOo have been installed by users, it might just possibly be the case that, on the contrary, the proportion of OOo installations that actually are used is higher than that for MS Office. None of us know, of course, but in any event, the method employed in this study does provide a reliable way of measuring whatever it is it measures, and will therefore be useful for detecting trends. Let us hope that in the fullness of time, the other users in your office come around and increase the proportion of OOo users !... Henri
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
M Henri Day wrote: 2010/2/5 Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com versions of Windows products. MS Office 2007 is installed on all of them, as is OOo, but I only use the latter (save when I'm helping people with difficulties in using the former over the telephone). As many computers are purchased with MS Office installed, but presumably all instances of OOo have been installed by users, it might just possibly be the case that, on the contrary, the proportion of OOo installations that actually are used is higher than that for MS Office. None of us know, of course, but in any event, the method employed in this study does provide a reliable way of measuring whatever it is it measures, and will therefore be useful for detecting trends. Let us hope that in the fullness of time, the other users in your office come around and increase the proportion of OOo users !... Henri, I get so frustrated by not being able put up a persuasive argument to persuade our staff to change to FLOSS or OSS. [CARE- RANT FOLLOWS] However, I learnt a lesson last week when two new desktops were installed in our office. We do a fair bit of minor photo editing, usually no more than lifting a section of photo image of its background and pasting it onto a different background. We may also do some basic photo enhancing. The file is then saved as a tiff and emailed to a manufacturer for some processing. We'd been using Paintshop Pro to do this. I persuaded the two workers who do this to try The Gimp. Within minutes there was a snag and near mutiny. It wasn't so much the Gimp itself that was the problem; it was the fact that there was no context sensitive help to guide users on how to cut the section of image. It took me the best part of twenty minutes to track down the relevant documentation. By that time my colleagues had thrown their hands up in despair and insisted Paintshop Pro be installed. More to the point, if it took me some considerable time to identify how to perform a fairly common and basic task in the Gimp, what chance the user. I have to conclude that therein is FLOSS's main handicap; the lack of meaningful help files system. Arguably OOo is better served in this area, but it has failings as well. For example. After years of using OOo, to this day I cannot get outline numbering to work. The instructions in the help system just do not work for me. So, whenever I need to use outline and paragraph numbering I'm back in MS-Word. It is just so much easier and more intuitive. Click Outline View and there it is and it works. OOo just doesn't do that in my experience. [END OF RANT] and thanks for listening. I feel much better now. :D -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v The boys dressed themselves, hid their accoutrements, and went off grieving that there were no outlaws any more, and wondering what modern civilization could claim to have done to compensate for their loss. They said they would rather be outlaws a year in Sherwood Forest than President of the United States forever. Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
2010/2/5 Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com M Henri Day wrote: 2010/2/5 Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com versions of Windows products. MS Office 2007 is installed on all of them, as is OOo, but I only use the latter (save when I'm helping people with difficulties in using the former over the telephone). As many computers are purchased with MS Office installed, but presumably all instances of OOo have been installed by users, it might just possibly be the case that, on the contrary, the proportion of OOo installations that actually are used is higher than that for MS Office. None of us know, of course, but in any event, the method employed in this study does provide a reliable way of measuring whatever it is it measures, and will therefore be useful for detecting trends. Let us hope that in the fullness of time, the other users in your office come around and increase the proportion of OOo users !... Henri, I get so frustrated by not being able put up a persuasive argument to persuade our staff to change to FLOSS or OSS. [CARE- RANT FOLLOWS] However, I learnt a lesson last week when two new desktops were installed in our office. We do a fair bit of minor photo editing, usually no more than lifting a section of photo image of its background and pasting it onto a different background. We may also do some basic photo enhancing. The file is then saved as a tiff and emailed to a manufacturer for some processing. We'd been using Paintshop Pro to do this. I persuaded the two workers who do this to try The Gimp. Within minutes there was a snag and near mutiny. It wasn't so much the Gimp itself that was the problem; it was the fact that there was no context sensitive help to guide users on how to cut the section of image. It took me the best part of twenty minutes to track down the relevant documentation. By that time my colleagues had thrown their hands up in despair and insisted Paintshop Pro be installed. More to the point, if it took me some considerable time to identify how to perform a fairly common and basic task in the Gimp, what chance the user. I have to conclude that therein is FLOSS's main handicap; the lack of meaningful help files system. Arguably OOo is better served in this area, but it has failings as well. For example. After years of using OOo, to this day I cannot get outline numbering to work. The instructions in the help system just do not work for me. So, whenever I need to use outline and paragraph numbering I'm back in MS-Word. It is just so much easier and more intuitive. Click Outline View and there it is and it works. OOo just doesn't do that in my experience. [END OF RANT] and thanks for listening. I feel much better now. :D -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v The boys dressed themselves, hid their accoutrements, and went off grieving that there were no outlaws any more, and wondering what modern civilization could claim to have done to compensate for their loss. They said they would rather be outlaws a year in Sherwood Forest than President of the United States forever. Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer Pierre, I agree with you - unnecessarily complicated user infaces and help files that are not always up to snuff are two of the major problems with open source products. User fora like this list can do much to help, but simplifying things that don't have to be complicated should be priority number one. One of the things that I personally would like to see is a GUI in Writer that allowed users to switch languages in the simple manner (selection from a drop-down menu) this can be done in Word 1997-2003 ; it's been requested, but so far without results. But who know - perhaps it will come before I've toddled off to a better world !... In any event, glad that ranting relieved the pressure !... Henri PS : Love your signature ! You know, no doubt, that Mark Twain was a prominent member of the American Anti-Imperialist League
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
M Henri Day wrote: PS : Love your signature ! You know, no doubt, that Mark Twain was a prominent member of the American Anti-Imperialist League Ummm... Wasn't Mark Twain a pen name for Samuel Clements? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
RE: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
Grow up, chill'un. And that would be Samuel Clemens. No t. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
On 2/5/2010 4:02 PM, James Knott wrote: M Henri Day wrote: PS : Love your signature ! You know, no doubt, that Mark Twain was a prominent member of the American Anti-Imperialist League Ummm... Wasn't Mark Twain a pen name for Samuel Clements? It was and TTBOMK he was, as was Andrew Carnegie - Politics does indeed, it would appear, lead to strange bedfellows. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
2010/2/5 James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com M Henri Day wrote: PS : Love your signature ! You know, no doubt, that Mark Twain was a prominent member of the American Anti-Imperialist League Ummm... Wasn't Mark Twain a pen name for Samuel Clements? Samuel Longhorne Clemens, to be exact Henri
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
On Saturday 06 February 2010 08:41, Pierre wrote: I get so frustrated by not being able put up a persuasive argument to persuade our staff to change to FLOSS or OSS. [CARE- RANT FOLLOWS] However, I learnt a lesson last week when two new desktops were installed in our office. We do a fair bit of minor photo editing, usually no more than lifting a section of photo image of its background and pasting it onto a different background. We may also do some basic photo enhancing. The file is then saved as a tiff and emailed to a manufacturer for some processing. We'd been using Paintshop Pro to do this. I persuaded the two workers who do this to try The Gimp. Within minutes there was a snag and near mutiny. It wasn't so much the Gimp itself that was the problem; it was the fact that there was no context sensitive help to guide users on how to cut the section of image. It took me the best part of twenty minutes to track down the relevant documentation. By that time my colleagues had thrown their hands up in despair and insisted Paintshop Pro be installed. Despite the fact that poor documentation and help files do frequently exist on FOSS software. This is not an issue that The GIMP suffers from. The GIMP's help files are larger than the program file: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html More to the point, if it took me some considerable time to identify how to perform a fairly common and basic task in the Gimp, what chance the user. To me you have admitted to being a GIMP Newbie, not an expert, yet you pose this question as if you are an expert. I have to conclude that therein is FLOSS's main handicap; the lack of meaningful help files system. And you would be wrong. What you have proven yet again is that FOSS suffers from an overabundance of idealists that recommend programs without being able to provide the support that is required with any new program. This support needs to fall into several categories: 1. Understand the program yourself, be prepared to be the help desk for the program. Know your stuff. Be prepared to learn if you don't know it before you push the product. 2. Install new software beside existing where possible. Show what it can do simpler, can do better or can do what the other software can't. Be prepared to do this frequently. 3. Push the use of the program when opportunities to show it off arise. (i.e. when save document formats are being discussed) Arguably OOo is better served in this area, but it has failings as well. For example. After years of using OOo, to this day I cannot get outline numbering to work. The instructions in the help system just do not work for me. So, whenever I need to use outline and paragraph numbering I'm back in MS-Word. It is just so much easier and more intuitive. Click Outline View and there it is and it works. OOo just doesn't do that in my experience. I frequently do outline numbering in OO.o without issue. [END OF RANT] and thanks for listening. I feel much better now. :D Pleased you feel better, but you are perpetrating miss-information. The above clearly shows a lack of ability, not program defects. Most people constantly think and hear that's easy where computers are concerned. If it were all that easy then we wouldn't have degree courses to get people started in the field. -- Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
Pierre ha scritto: M Henri Day wrote: 2010/2/5 Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com versions of Windows products. MS Office 2007 is installed on all of them, as is OOo, but I only use the latter (save when I'm helping people with difficulties in using the former over the telephone). As many computers are purchased with MS Office installed, but presumably all instances of OOo have been installed by users, it might just possibly be the case that, on the contrary, the proportion of OOo installations that actually are used is higher than that for MS Office. None of us know, of course, but in any event, the method employed in this study does provide a reliable way of measuring whatever it is it measures, and will therefore be useful for detecting trends. Let us hope that in the fullness of time, the other users in your office come around and increase the proportion of OOo users !... Henri, I get so frustrated by not being able put up a persuasive argument to persuade our staff to change to FLOSS or OSS. [CARE- RANT FOLLOWS] However, I learnt a lesson last week when two new desktops were installed in our office. We do a fair bit of minor photo editing, usually no more than lifting a section of photo image of its background and pasting it onto a different background. We may also do some basic photo enhancing. The file is then saved as a tiff and emailed to a manufacturer for some processing. We'd been using Paintshop Pro to do this. For how long ? Have you used also other programs or PSP exclusively ? I persuaded the two workers who do this to try The Gimp. May I ask you how ? What did you tell them ? What were your arguments for trying out The Gimp ? What did you promise them ? Within minutes there was a snag and near mutiny. It wasn't so much the Gimp itself that was the problem; it was the fact that there was no context sensitive help to guide users on how to cut the section of If I understand correctly: - select the portion of the image you want to cut (e.g. use the rectangle selection tool) - edit - copy - edit - paste as new image or - image - crop to selection image. It took me the best part of twenty minutes to track down the You knew your collegues had to perform the cutting task, so why didn't you try it on your own and track down the docs _before_ installing the thing ? relevant documentation. By that time my colleagues had thrown their hands up in despair and insisted Paintshop Pro be installed. This is not surprising. I had this reaction even when my collegue showed me a task and I immediately showed him how to do it in Gimp: he found it too difficult to remember, and he hadn't enough motivation to start learning Gimp, so he just kept using his usual program. Sometimes good arguments are not enough, you also have to find the right time to have people listen. More to the point, if it took me some considerable time to identify how to perform a fairly common and basic task in the Gimp, what chance the user. Sometimes the user has to be guided. I've used OOo now for so many years that I find MS Word 2000 fairly unintuitive. My collegues are instead used to MS Workd 2K so I have to work hard to _slowly_ take them to migrate to OOo. So while I agree that The Gimp is not the most user-friendly app out there, maybe that fairly common and basic task seemed difficult to you because you're used to PSP... (just guessing) I have to conclude that therein is FLOSS's main handicap; the lack of meaningful help files system. I understand you're ranting (it's happened to me too, so I know how one feels when fighiting with poor docs), but this statement is total FUD. It's as accurate as saying all MS software is crap. Most of us have said it sometime (or perhaps often), but we all know it's just oversimplification. Arguably OOo is better served in this area, but it has failings as well. So does MS Office. For example. After years of using OOo, to this day I cannot get outline numbering to work. The instructions in the help system just do not work for me. So, whenever I need to use outline and paragraph numbering I'm back in MS-Word. It is just so much easier and more intuitive. Click Outline View and there it is and it works. OOo just doesn't do that in my experience. You might be right, but you should definetly not give up that way. Google hard for it or ask here! [END OF RANT] and thanks for listening. I feel much better now. :D I think the lesson here is twofold: 1) before showing a new program to someone, be sure to know it well, or at least to know well the functions you want to show in that particular situation; 2) persuading someone to change habits is very hard; when habit means I'm used to click there, there, and there and I've got my work done the job becomes virtually impossibile; so you have to be _very_ prepared to answer the tipical question: that task in my usual software is done so and so,
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
Michael Adams wrote: Despite the fact that poor documentation and help files do frequently exist on FOSS software. This is not an issue that The GIMP suffers from. The GIMP's help files are larger than the program file: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html They may be large, but they are difficult to navigate, There is no search function as far as I can see and certainly there is no context sensitive help. One has to trawl through the pages in the hope of finding the relevant topic. -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v The boys dressed themselves, hid their accoutrements, and went off grieving that there were no outlaws any more, and wondering what modern civilization could claim to have done to compensate for their loss. They said they would rather be outlaws a year in Sherwood Forest than President of the United States forever. Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
What do you mean There is no context sensitive help? On the help menu, the second item down is Context Sensitive Help. When you click it, a question mark is displayed that brings up the relevant help page for the clicked-on UI item. John On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Pierre openoff...@finalfiler.com wrote: Michael Adams wrote: Despite the fact that poor documentation and help files do frequently exist on FOSS software. This is not an issue that The GIMP suffers from. The GIMP's help files are larger than the program file: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html They may be large, but they are difficult to navigate, There is no search function as far as I can see and certainly there is no context sensitive help. One has to trawl through the pages in the hope of finding the relevant topic. -- Pierre Worrigee, NSW, ,-._|\ / Oz \ \_,--._/ v The boys dressed themselves, hid their accoutrements, and went off grieving that there were no outlaws any more, and wondering what modern civilization could claim to have done to compensate for their loss. They said they would rather be outlaws a year in Sherwood Forest than President of the United States forever. Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
[users] OOo on 21 % of German Internet users' computers
Many list members will find this story (in German - Google Translate is your friend) published on a site for webmasters ( http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykwtj22 ) of interest. Certain others, I suspect, will make use of the opportunity to be outraged Henri
