Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi, to follow up here. We had a docker-compose.yml inside of the project's root directory to build (and even debug) TomEE during a build since 2017, but it was outdated and broken with TomEE 9+. I just fixed it for TomEE 10, so if anyone wants to give it a try to build TomEE 10 from source, he/she can just use the provided docker-compose file. The "build-quick" won't run unit tests but creates the binaries. Feel free to give it a try, Bart. Best Richard Am Mittwoch, dem 20.03.2024 um 16:33 -0500 schrieb David Blevins: > Hi Bart, > > Really, thank you for even trying to help at all. You are > remarkable. > > The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with > time to create it. Side note, I know Richard has put some effort > into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might > be better for you now. Even with the build perfect, we'd still need > someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs. > > I had an idea on the sponsoring concept. We do have 34 committers > that have been added over the last 24 years. Maybe we get sponsor > one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their > evening hours for a few weeks. We could use the Github Sponsor path > to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up. We put > some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would > happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date > range) and I can use my platform to advertise it. Then we go through > the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last > few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can > make happen. > > Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build > issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some > hopeful contributors into committers. > > The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24 > years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled > to help others. The previous times I basically did it myself with > brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running > again for a few years. The last time was 2007. We now have Github > Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that > weren't there before. > > If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the > project and related projects. The real truth behind this is our > dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans, > BatchEE, BVal, etc. All the projects mentioned are actually the only > other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is > the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them. All other > vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse > implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that > doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if > you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice, > innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as > you're the only one doing it which is just backwards. We could > potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to > create committers. > > I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing. > Could be worth a try at least once. > > Thoughts? > > > -David > > > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > > wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or > > 'race > > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue > > that > > might not be the way to go. > > > > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for > > dummies' > > session or something. > > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I > > might say > > something that is already covered. > > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build > > environment, > > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? > > > > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > > > > > From: "David Blevins" > > To: users@tomee.apache.org > > Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 > > Subject: Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? > > (was Re: > > Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > > > > > Hi Bart, > > > > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that > > plan A > > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for > > everyone. > >
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi Bart, I have to admit that documentation is not exactly my core competence. ;-) But I'll try to at least write down the pitfalls, workarounds and hopefully solutions on my way. I'm still hoping I will not be the only one joining the project and trying to contribute, so a kind of shared Wiki maybe good for this. cu Jens Am 25.03.2024 um 11:39 schrieb Bart van Leeuwen: Hi Jens, I would be extremely grateful if you could document your experience and lessons learned somewhere Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "Jens Zurawski" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 25-03-2024 10:41 Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi Richard, oh, that sounds like a lot of "fun" ;-) Thank you, that you shed some light. So this definitely can't be done by the way and one has to focus a significant amount of time without interruption in order to make some positive progress. Not impossible it just makes it a bit harder to find suitable time slices especially as a newbie because I have no clue how high the hill is I have to climb. But just lamenting around will not help in any way, so I think I will try to dive into this project and see if I can be of any help. If not I will have wasted some time at most. It's worth the try. I'll continue my "questionary" on this in the dev@ list then. But it'll take some two or three weeks until this, because I have some other nasty deadlines in sight the next weeks. cu Jens Am 22.03.2024 um 20:44 schrieb Richard Zowalla: Hi, you actually need to choose the right branch on that repository. Some of these tests require specific settings to be present (only available on some branches) and assume certain locale / enviroment conditions (most of them aren't documented in the README). I had a lot of pain running TCK tests for 8.x and 9.1.x on my de_DE Ubuntu machine ;-) (and yes, I also had the bsdtar issue). Another thing is, that a run polutes your TCK installation, so I ended up putting it under a local git and clean it after each run ;-) Getting the old TCK to run, is a bit of a pain. Even if you are doing everything right, it sometimes also depends on the JDK version you have on your machine (for 9.1.1, I had some pain because of a bug in the JDK HTTP client resulting in TCK tests to fail due to a change in CXF). Long story short: Given that most TCK/specs migrated towards arquillian/junit/testng, setting up and running the TCK for TomEE 10, is now a totally different thing than before. Some of the quirks and properties / configs (and hacks) can be copied over or need to be added. A good example for that procedere is [1], in which Benedict and myself did a trial and error approach to get the JAX-RS E10 TCK set up. We would need to do that for the other relevant spec TCKs inside of TomEE too, but this is "Neuland" (new area) for everyone involved. Some of these modern TCKs are straightforward (eg. BatchEE TCK), but others require a more sophisticated setup. It involves looking into the TCK guide, looking into other projects (how they do it), copying / checking quirks required for TomEE inside the old TCK (system properties, etc.) and trying to get it setup and run it. It is really a try and error process. The signature tests are more or less "quick" wins, but sometimes also require some hackery :/ I guess, that the place to ask questions is the dev@ list. If it requires a more sync way of communicating, Slack might also be an opton. A synchronous meeting might work too, but is limited to timezone, etc. Gruß Richard [1] https://github.com/apache/tomee/pull/1063
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi Jens, I would be extremely grateful if you could document your experience and lessons learned somewhere Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "Jens Zurawski" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 25-03-2024 10:41 Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi Richard, oh, that sounds like a lot of "fun" ;-) Thank you, that you shed some light. So this definitely can't be done by the way and one has to focus a significant amount of time without interruption in order to make some positive progress. Not impossible it just makes it a bit harder to find suitable time slices especially as a newbie because I have no clue how high the hill is I have to climb. But just lamenting around will not help in any way, so I think I will try to dive into this project and see if I can be of any help. If not I will have wasted some time at most. It's worth the try. I'll continue my "questionary" on this in the dev@ list then. But it'll take some two or three weeks until this, because I have some other nasty deadlines in sight the next weeks. cu Jens Am 22.03.2024 um 20:44 schrieb Richard Zowalla: > Hi, > > you actually need to choose the right branch on that repository. Some > of these tests require specific settings to be present (only available > on some branches) and assume certain locale / enviroment conditions > (most of them aren't documented in the README). I had a lot of pain > running TCK tests for 8.x and 9.1.x on my de_DE Ubuntu machine ;-) (and > yes, I also had the bsdtar issue). Another thing is, that a run polutes > your TCK installation, so I ended up putting it under a local git and > clean it after each run ;-) > > Getting the old TCK to run, is a bit of a pain. Even if you are doing > everything right, it sometimes also depends on the JDK version you have > on your machine (for 9.1.1, I had some pain because of a bug in the JDK > HTTP client resulting in TCK tests to fail due to a change in CXF). > > Long story short: Given that most TCK/specs migrated towards > arquillian/junit/testng, setting up and running the TCK for TomEE 10, > is now a totally different thing than before. Some of the quirks and > properties / configs (and hacks) can be copied over or need to be > added. A good example for that procedere is [1], in which Benedict and > myself did a trial and error approach to get the JAX-RS E10 TCK set up. > > We would need to do that for the other relevant spec TCKs inside of > TomEE too, but this is "Neuland" (new area) for everyone involved. Some > of these modern TCKs are straightforward (eg. BatchEE TCK), but others > require a more sophisticated setup. It involves looking into the TCK > guide, looking into other projects (how they do it), copying / checking > quirks required for TomEE inside the old TCK (system properties, etc.) > and trying to get it setup and run it. It is really a try and error > process. The signature tests are more or less "quick" wins, but > sometimes also require some hackery :/ > > I guess, that the place to ask questions is the dev@ list. If it > requires a more sync way of communicating, Slack might also be an > opton. A synchronous meeting might work too, but is limited to > timezone, etc. > > > Gruß > Richard > > > [1] https://github.com/apache/tomee/pull/1063 > > >
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi Richard, oh, that sounds like a lot of "fun" ;-) Thank you, that you shed some light. So this definitely can't be done by the way and one has to focus a significant amount of time without interruption in order to make some positive progress. Not impossible it just makes it a bit harder to find suitable time slices especially as a newbie because I have no clue how high the hill is I have to climb. But just lamenting around will not help in any way, so I think I will try to dive into this project and see if I can be of any help. If not I will have wasted some time at most. It's worth the try. I'll continue my "questionary" on this in the dev@ list then. But it'll take some two or three weeks until this, because I have some other nasty deadlines in sight the next weeks. cu Jens Am 22.03.2024 um 20:44 schrieb Richard Zowalla: Hi, you actually need to choose the right branch on that repository. Some of these tests require specific settings to be present (only available on some branches) and assume certain locale / enviroment conditions (most of them aren't documented in the README). I had a lot of pain running TCK tests for 8.x and 9.1.x on my de_DE Ubuntu machine ;-) (and yes, I also had the bsdtar issue). Another thing is, that a run polutes your TCK installation, so I ended up putting it under a local git and clean it after each run ;-) Getting the old TCK to run, is a bit of a pain. Even if you are doing everything right, it sometimes also depends on the JDK version you have on your machine (for 9.1.1, I had some pain because of a bug in the JDK HTTP client resulting in TCK tests to fail due to a change in CXF). Long story short: Given that most TCK/specs migrated towards arquillian/junit/testng, setting up and running the TCK for TomEE 10, is now a totally different thing than before. Some of the quirks and properties / configs (and hacks) can be copied over or need to be added. A good example for that procedere is [1], in which Benedict and myself did a trial and error approach to get the JAX-RS E10 TCK set up. We would need to do that for the other relevant spec TCKs inside of TomEE too, but this is "Neuland" (new area) for everyone involved. Some of these modern TCKs are straightforward (eg. BatchEE TCK), but others require a more sophisticated setup. It involves looking into the TCK guide, looking into other projects (how they do it), copying / checking quirks required for TomEE inside the old TCK (system properties, etc.) and trying to get it setup and run it. It is really a try and error process. The signature tests are more or less "quick" wins, but sometimes also require some hackery :/ I guess, that the place to ask questions is the dev@ list. If it requires a more sync way of communicating, Slack might also be an opton. A synchronous meeting might work too, but is limited to timezone, etc. Gruß Richard [1] https://github.com/apache/tomee/pull/1063
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi, you actually need to choose the right branch on that repository. Some of these tests require specific settings to be present (only available on some branches) and assume certain locale / enviroment conditions (most of them aren't documented in the README). I had a lot of pain running TCK tests for 8.x and 9.1.x on my de_DE Ubuntu machine ;-) (and yes, I also had the bsdtar issue). Another thing is, that a run polutes your TCK installation, so I ended up putting it under a local git and clean it after each run ;-) Getting the old TCK to run, is a bit of a pain. Even if you are doing everything right, it sometimes also depends on the JDK version you have on your machine (for 9.1.1, I had some pain because of a bug in the JDK HTTP client resulting in TCK tests to fail due to a change in CXF). Long story short: Given that most TCK/specs migrated towards arquillian/junit/testng, setting up and running the TCK for TomEE 10, is now a totally different thing than before. Some of the quirks and properties / configs (and hacks) can be copied over or need to be added. A good example for that procedere is [1], in which Benedict and myself did a trial and error approach to get the JAX-RS E10 TCK set up. We would need to do that for the other relevant spec TCKs inside of TomEE too, but this is "Neuland" (new area) for everyone involved. Some of these modern TCKs are straightforward (eg. BatchEE TCK), but others require a more sophisticated setup. It involves looking into the TCK guide, looking into other projects (how they do it), copying / checking quirks required for TomEE inside the old TCK (system properties, etc.) and trying to get it setup and run it. It is really a try and error process. The signature tests are more or less "quick" wins, but sometimes also require some hackery :/ I guess, that the place to ask questions is the dev@ list. If it requires a more sync way of communicating, Slack might also be an opton. A synchronous meeting might work too, but is limited to timezone, etc. Gruß Richard [1] https://github.com/apache/tomee/pull/1063 Am Freitag, dem 22.03.2024 um 13:59 +0100 schrieb Jens Zurawski: > Hi David, > > thanks for your reply. It's a difficult situation right now, feels a > bit > like a "deadlock": No relief for the active rest of the committers > without new and "educated" team members, but no new team members > without > additional time invest of the current committers. As with technical > deadlocks, it has to be broken up at some point (even with some small > loss somewhere if there is no other way). So, I'm looking forward if > it's possible to re-activate one of the retired committers. At least > to > be available as a kind of "big brother" who can be asked some > questions > once in a while when the newbies get stuck somewhere. And, of course, > a > short introduction into what/where/when/how. > > Just out of curiosity I've started a quick and naive attempt to check > the TCKs on my machine. I actually don't have the time slices to dig > deeper into this, but I wanted to get a feeling of what's coming up > if I > decide to get into it. > > So I just installed a new WSL ubuntu 22.04 instance (if that won't > work, > I would have continued with a dedicated linux VM), installed git and > maven, and followed the instructions on > https://github.com/apache/tomee-tck/ > > It doesn't work out of the box on a fresh ubuntu. "bsdtar" is not > installed in default dist setup. Why bsdtar? Maybe could be changed > to > just use GNU tar? > Now, with bsdtar installed, after setup.sh has finished (there is no > setup-tck9.sh, the README.adoc should be adapted), there were no > error > messages or warnings, but glassfish-7.0.0-M8 download/unzip wasn't > successful. Don't know why, I've done it manually then. When I have > some > more time, I may try to find out where the problem is. > > Now, everything seems to be here and I started a first try with the > sample from the README: > ./runtests --web tomee-plume > com.sun.ts.tests.ejb30.bb.localaccess.statelessclient > > Nice, all tests passed :-) > > Then, cheered up from this first success, tried a more comprehensive > test with: > ./runtests --web tomee-plume -c com.sun.ts.tests.ejb30 > > Could run in background during I was doing my daily stuff. Ok, seems > this will take quite a while It's already running since 2 hours > or > so and I think I will stop it here. Until now, 795 tests passed and > 1807 > tests failed. So what I learn from this quick shot: Something is not > working correct by now or I have not understood correctly how it > works, > because a failed/passed ratio of 2:1 can't be correct. On the other > hand, passing 795 tests with success also means I'm not totally off > track ;-) > > Yeah, well, without some educated hints it will take much more time > to > correctly get into this. I guess it's only some glitches in my setup, > or > I have forgotten something, or I'm just doing it
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi David, thanks for your reply. It's a difficult situation right now, feels a bit like a "deadlock": No relief for the active rest of the committers without new and "educated" team members, but no new team members without additional time invest of the current committers. As with technical deadlocks, it has to be broken up at some point (even with some small loss somewhere if there is no other way). So, I'm looking forward if it's possible to re-activate one of the retired committers. At least to be available as a kind of "big brother" who can be asked some questions once in a while when the newbies get stuck somewhere. And, of course, a short introduction into what/where/when/how. Just out of curiosity I've started a quick and naive attempt to check the TCKs on my machine. I actually don't have the time slices to dig deeper into this, but I wanted to get a feeling of what's coming up if I decide to get into it. So I just installed a new WSL ubuntu 22.04 instance (if that won't work, I would have continued with a dedicated linux VM), installed git and maven, and followed the instructions on https://github.com/apache/tomee-tck/ It doesn't work out of the box on a fresh ubuntu. "bsdtar" is not installed in default dist setup. Why bsdtar? Maybe could be changed to just use GNU tar? Now, with bsdtar installed, after setup.sh has finished (there is no setup-tck9.sh, the README.adoc should be adapted), there were no error messages or warnings, but glassfish-7.0.0-M8 download/unzip wasn't successful. Don't know why, I've done it manually then. When I have some more time, I may try to find out where the problem is. Now, everything seems to be here and I started a first try with the sample from the README: ./runtests --web tomee-plume com.sun.ts.tests.ejb30.bb.localaccess.statelessclient Nice, all tests passed :-) Then, cheered up from this first success, tried a more comprehensive test with: ./runtests --web tomee-plume -c com.sun.ts.tests.ejb30 Could run in background during I was doing my daily stuff. Ok, seems this will take quite a while It's already running since 2 hours or so and I think I will stop it here. Until now, 795 tests passed and 1807 tests failed. So what I learn from this quick shot: Something is not working correct by now or I have not understood correctly how it works, because a failed/passed ratio of 2:1 can't be correct. On the other hand, passing 795 tests with success also means I'm not totally off track ;-) Yeah, well, without some educated hints it will take much more time to correctly get into this. I guess it's only some glitches in my setup, or I have forgotten something, or I'm just doing it wrong. For me to find out what's wrong, this could be a long journey and maybe cost me hours and hours and hours. At this point it would be perfect if there is one or two persons who can take a look and out of experience say "of course it's not working, you have to do this and that" or even if they are only pointing me in the right direction of where to search would already be helpful. cu Jens Am 21.03.2024 um 18:47 schrieb David Blevins: On Mar 21, 2024, at 5:54 AM, Jens Zurawski wrote: Another problem is: I'm afraid, I will have to learn quite a bunch of things before I will be of any real help to the project. Although I'm already doing some JSF Appliactions my knowledge of the EE universe/specifications is limited. Up to now it's more cherry picking the stuff I need for my projects. There is a learning curve that is steep and it does involve an up front investment of time before you're productive. It can be done, though. There were four of us who did most the work on the TomEE 1.0 TCK compliance and I was the only one who had any experience with it due to my time in Geronimo. The others had to learn after hours from scratch. They did it and were able to help get tests to pass. More directly, if only full-time people were able to help there would never have been a TomEE in the first place. You absolutely do need someone, however, helping you that is familiar with the TCKs. We'd need to find someone with that time for anything to be successful, hence the other conversation. In terms of how much time it takes to get tests to pass, it's hit and miss. There are usually many easy wins when you're under 80% passing. As you approach the 95% it's harder. Those last few tests at 98% passing are very hard and you can spend two weeks trying to get one test to pass. In all cases it involves you running the test with remote debugging, attaching with a debugger and stepping through the code over and over and reading through the specification document to better understand the requirements the test claims it is asserting. You quickly become deeply familiar with parts of the code and parts of the spec. That knowledge expands the more tests you work on. For sanity sake, it's usually best to focus on one section
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
> On Mar 21, 2024, at 12:47 PM, David Blevins wrote: > > Short of that idea, we're kind of stuck for the same reasons. Sorry, different reasons. My hands are tied on my time regardless if the outcome would be guaranteed good. Didn't mean to make that blurry with the above awkward statement. Again, there might be other committers we could get to come back and help. -David
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
> On Mar 21, 2024, at 5:54 AM, Jens Zurawski wrote: > > Another problem is: I'm afraid, I will have to learn quite a bunch of things > before I will be of any real help to the project. Although I'm already doing > some JSF Appliactions my knowledge of the EE universe/specifications is > limited. Up to now it's more cherry picking the stuff I need for my projects. There is a learning curve that is steep and it does involve an up front investment of time before you're productive. It can be done, though. There were four of us who did most the work on the TomEE 1.0 TCK compliance and I was the only one who had any experience with it due to my time in Geronimo. The others had to learn after hours from scratch. They did it and were able to help get tests to pass. More directly, if only full-time people were able to help there would never have been a TomEE in the first place. You absolutely do need someone, however, helping you that is familiar with the TCKs. We'd need to find someone with that time for anything to be successful, hence the other conversation. In terms of how much time it takes to get tests to pass, it's hit and miss. There are usually many easy wins when you're under 80% passing. As you approach the 95% it's harder. Those last few tests at 98% passing are very hard and you can spend two weeks trying to get one test to pass. In all cases it involves you running the test with remote debugging, attaching with a debugger and stepping through the code over and over and reading through the specification document to better understand the requirements the test claims it is asserting. You quickly become deeply familiar with parts of the code and parts of the spec. That knowledge expands the more tests you work on. For sanity sake, it's usually best to focus on one section for a while (say JSF), otherwise it's too much context shifting. The volume of tests makes it very easy for many people to work in parallel. We also have a system that can run all the tests in parallel (https://tck.work/tomee/builds), which is useful only for finding failing tests that you then can run and debug locally. The TCK setups themselves are getting far simpler than they were. The legacy Jakarta EE TCK is a 500mb beast that uses a formerly proprietary testing framework created in the Sun days. It's not much fun to work with. The setup for that is here: - https://github.com/apache/tomee-tck/ Several of the Jakarta EE spec teams have been taking their tests out of the legacy TCK and have been converting them to JUnit and TestNG, sometimes using Arquillian. These are far easier to get started with as it's what everyone is familiar with. > So I really would like to contribute to the project, but it may turn out > that eventually I will not have enough time or will fail in understanding all > the EE specifications and their dependencies. And because I know that it > will be additional work for you and the other active contributors to educate > me (or at least give helping hands here and there), I'm hesitating. Then you'd be in the same boat as everyone else, including me. That's just the way things go. And it works in reverse as well, it's hard to encourage people when you know they'll need you and you know you're not available and they'll probably fail and have their time wasted. Hence the idea of finding a person who used to contribute and became a committer and see if we can use some brief sponsorship to get them back on the project in their evening time for a while to help all of you. We have 34 committers. I bet we can find at least one to help bootstrap this if we throw something their way. Short of that idea, we're kind of stuck for the same reasons. -David
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
> On Mar 21, 2024, at 8:19 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > wrote: > > Hi David, > > I like the idea of having 'Getting started sessions' , also as Jens > responded in his other mail it could be benificial to write down what I > did to get things moving on my end. a How-to created by people who learned > how to.. > > Could we set a fixed fee for such a scheme which we then divide among the > people who participate, or a 'go fund me' like scheme? just throwing in > some ideas. I've got just barely enough time to "write a check" with you and let the inactive committer we find write those documents, do the teaching and take things from there. It'd have to be a fixed amount of time and a fixed amount. If you want to organize a go-fund-me approach, I'd be happy to put some funds in along with everyone else. -- David Blevins http://twitter.com/dblevins http://www.tomitribe.com 310-633-3852
RE: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi everybody. ¿May I suggest that those sessions be recorded so that other people can learn how to contribute? This will alleviate the burden of those who know and maybe ease the learning curve. Regards, Guillermo -Mensaje original- De: Bart van Leeuwen Enviado el: jueves, 21 de marzo de 2024 10:20 Para: users@tomee.apache.org Asunto: Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi David, I like the idea of having 'Getting started sessions' , also as Jens responded in his other mail it could be benificial to write down what I did to get things moving on my end. a How-to created by people who learned how to.. Could we set a fixed fee for such a scheme which we then divide among the people who participate, or a 'go fund me' like scheme? just throwing in some ideas. Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "David Blevins" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 20-03-2024 22:34 Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi Bart, Really, thank you for even trying to help at all. You are remarkable. The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with time to create it. Side note, I know Richard has put some effort into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might be better for you now. Even with the build perfect, we'd still need someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs. I had an idea on the sponsoring concept. We do have 34 committers that have been added over the last 24 years. Maybe we get sponsor one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their evening hours for a few weeks. We could use the Github Sponsor path to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up. We put some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date range) and I can use my platform to advertise it. Then we go through the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can make happen. Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some hopeful contributors into committers. The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24 years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled to help others. The previous times I basically did it myself with brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running again for a few years. The last time was 2007. We now have Github Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that weren't there before. If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the project and related projects. The real truth behind this is our dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans, BatchEE, BVal, etc. All the projects mentioned are actually the only other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them. All other vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice, innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as you're the only one doing it which is just backwards. We could potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to create committers. I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing. Could be worth a try at least once. Thoughts? -David > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen wrote: > > Hi David, > > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or 'race > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue that > might not be the way to go. > > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for dummies' > session or something. > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I might say > something that is already covered. > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build environment, > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen > > > > From: "David Blevins" > To: users@tomee.apache.org > Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 > Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: > Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > Hi Bart, > > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that plan > A > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for everyon
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi David, I like the idea of having 'Getting started sessions' , also as Jens responded in his other mail it could be benificial to write down what I did to get things moving on my end. a How-to created by people who learned how to.. Could we set a fixed fee for such a scheme which we then divide among the people who participate, or a 'go fund me' like scheme? just throwing in some ideas. Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "David Blevins" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 20-03-2024 22:34 Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi Bart, Really, thank you for even trying to help at all. You are remarkable. The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with time to create it. Side note, I know Richard has put some effort into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might be better for you now. Even with the build perfect, we'd still need someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs. I had an idea on the sponsoring concept. We do have 34 committers that have been added over the last 24 years. Maybe we get sponsor one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their evening hours for a few weeks. We could use the Github Sponsor path to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up. We put some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date range) and I can use my platform to advertise it. Then we go through the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can make happen. Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some hopeful contributors into committers. The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24 years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled to help others. The previous times I basically did it myself with brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running again for a few years. The last time was 2007. We now have Github Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that weren't there before. If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the project and related projects. The real truth behind this is our dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans, BatchEE, BVal, etc. All the projects mentioned are actually the only other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them. All other vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice, innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as you're the only one doing it which is just backwards. We could potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to create committers. I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing. Could be worth a try at least once. Thoughts? -David > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen wrote: > > Hi David, > > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or 'race > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue that > might not be the way to go. > > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for dummies' > session or something. > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I might say > something that is already covered. > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build environment, > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > From: "David Blevins" > To: users@tomee.apache.org > Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 > Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: > Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > Hi Bart, > > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that plan A > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for everyone. > It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term. > > The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to cover a > salary really helps. My experience is no one has that kind of budget to > spare and get nothing but open source in return. You usually need a few > supporters to cover one person. They typically get something in retu
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi David, Am 20.03.2024 um 01:16 schrieb David Blevins: Are there others in Bert's position who have employer support to contribute but aren't sure where to start? I'm sort of... I am self-employed, this means if I'm deciding to contribute to the project it more or less will be part of my 'job'. So I will have the employer support as I am the employer ;-) One problem is: I'm dependent to my customers and to running projects and deadlines. So even if I'm the employer I do not have complete control over my spare times. And this means, in order to not burn out, there may be times (in the range from days to several weeks) where I won't be able to contribute one minute to the project. And then there may be times at which I will be able to contribute several hours a week. Another problem is: I'm afraid, I will have to learn quite a bunch of things before I will be of any real help to the project. Although I'm already doing some JSF Appliactions my knowledge of the EE universe/specifications is limited. Up to now it's more cherry picking the stuff I need for my projects. So I really would like to contribute to the project, but it may turn out that eventually I will not have enough time or will fail in understanding all the EE specifications and their dependencies. And because I know that it will be additional work for you and the other active contributors to educate me (or at least give helping hands here and there), I'm hesitating. But: if we are able to find some more people like me and Bert (means: want to help but aren't sure if they will be able to and where to start) it may be worth the effort of building some sort of "how to start contributing to tomee" documentation based on the experience with us. I see two advantages: 1) You may be more comfortable to invest your time in teaching us, because there is the chance that at least one or two of the group will stay and contribute to the project. 2) This can create some sort of basic "HowTo start..." documentation as a side effect. This alone would raise the chances to get new contributors in the future. Because don't underestimate the effect of being able to test and play around "alone in the basement, without somebody looking over your shoulder". But for this, somebody would need some starter in form of a short document with "you need this... a) b) c)..." and "you should look here...1) 2) 3).". Means lowering the "inhibition threshold" so that an interested person can dig into it without the need to first register to a mailing list or the like. So, yes, if we find some more people, I would be happy to participate as a "trainee in a training group". cu Jens
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi Bart, Really, thank you for even trying to help at all. You are remarkable. The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with time to create it. Side note, I know Richard has put some effort into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might be better for you now. Even with the build perfect, we'd still need someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs. I had an idea on the sponsoring concept. We do have 34 committers that have been added over the last 24 years. Maybe we get sponsor one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their evening hours for a few weeks. We could use the Github Sponsor path to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up. We put some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date range) and I can use my platform to advertise it. Then we go through the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can make happen. Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some hopeful contributors into committers. The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24 years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled to help others. The previous times I basically did it myself with brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running again for a few years. The last time was 2007. We now have Github Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that weren't there before. If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the project and related projects. The real truth behind this is our dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans, BatchEE, BVal, etc. All the projects mentioned are actually the only other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them. All other vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice, innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as you're the only one doing it which is just backwards. We could potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to create committers. I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing. Could be worth a try at least once. Thoughts? -David > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > wrote: > > Hi David, > > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or 'race > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue that > might not be the way to go. > > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for dummies' > session or something. > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I might say > something that is already covered. > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build environment, > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > From: "David Blevins" > To: users@tomee.apache.org > Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 > Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: > Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > Hi Bart, > > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that plan A > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for everyone. > It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term. > > The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to cover a > salary really helps. My experience is no one has that kind of budget to > spare and get nothing but open source in return. You usually need a few > supporters to cover one person. They typically get something in return > (like 24x7 support) and that often means the person who gets brought on > now has a huge learning curve like you would have, but also a list of > tickets to solve before they can spend time on oss, so they still end up > with the "I have day job" problem. Only now it's a day and night job > (24x7 support), so the evenings you had to contribute are now gone. That > is pretty much the current situation with the original contributors like > myself. > > Contributing time directly has its own challenges. A big one is that once > a project gets so low in people with time, there is no one available to >
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi David, thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or 'race condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue that might not be the way to go. I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for dummies' session or something. I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I might say something that is already covered. My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build environment, would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "David Blevins" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 Subject:Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) Hi Bart, If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that plan A and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for everyone. It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term. The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to cover a salary really helps. My experience is no one has that kind of budget to spare and get nothing but open source in return. You usually need a few supporters to cover one person. They typically get something in return (like 24x7 support) and that often means the person who gets brought on now has a huge learning curve like you would have, but also a list of tickets to solve before they can spend time on oss, so they still end up with the "I have day job" problem. Only now it's a day and night job (24x7 support), so the evenings you had to contribute are now gone. That is pretty much the current situation with the original contributors like myself. Contributing time directly has its own challenges. A big one is that once a project gets so low in people with time, there is no one available to help new potential contributors. We have 34 committers, but we're lucky to see 3. It's a big project with dependences that are quite large themselves and the time to teach all of that is nearly equivalent to the time for the other person to learn it. By the time people learn it, they often move on to other jobs and often the value the project got is low for the time spent. All that said, if you or I had unlimited resources this would still be the case. We'd have a bunch of newly hired people who don't know what to do and only a small number of (very overworked) people to enable them. It would still be hard for everyone. The big win would be you could be a positive example: we use it, so we contribute. People need to see this. We need to encourage people to follow that example. It is possible to start small and slowly work towards bigger things. It does take constant guidance and someone with time to help and that is the big trick. People frequently don't get too far and that's another challenge and a real opportunity cost if it doesn't work. We can greatly lower that risk if we can get a few people like you together and teach a handful of people how to contribute at once. Maybe if we can get a few others signed up, we can setup some kind of semi-regular zoom meetings to help people find a way in. You could lean on each other as you go. This greatly helps in feeling safe asking "stupid" questions as you know others who need the answer. Then there are more people to help others get in and we start to get back on our feet again. Are there others in Bert's position who have employer support to contribute but aren't sure where to start? -David > On Mar 19, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen wrote: > > Hi David, > > Thank you for your extensive and personal email. It is good to hear the > back story of these projects now and then. > > I have to admit I'm in the same boat as Vicente, I would like to > contribute, I can commit work time, but the sheer volume of the project is > intimidating at least and makes it hard to get started. > So I would be willing to support development financially, preferably in a > way that gets most of the money to the people who do the work, or the ones > that pay their paycheck. > > That however is not solving the real problem, the lack of commiters to the > project. Ideally there would be a way for lesser gods, like myself, to > take small bites of the project, instead of eating the whole elephant. > The question obviously is, is that even possible? > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > From: "David Blevins" > To: users@tomee.apache.org > Date: 19-03-2024 03:20 > Subject:Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will > Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello > wrote: >> >> Hi, >>
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi Bart, If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that plan A and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for everyone. It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term. The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to cover a salary really helps. My experience is no one has that kind of budget to spare and get nothing but open source in return. You usually need a few supporters to cover one person. They typically get something in return (like 24x7 support) and that often means the person who gets brought on now has a huge learning curve like you would have, but also a list of tickets to solve before they can spend time on oss, so they still end up with the "I have day job" problem. Only now it's a day and night job (24x7 support), so the evenings you had to contribute are now gone. That is pretty much the current situation with the original contributors like myself. Contributing time directly has its own challenges. A big one is that once a project gets so low in people with time, there is no one available to help new potential contributors. We have 34 committers, but we're lucky to see 3. It's a big project with dependences that are quite large themselves and the time to teach all of that is nearly equivalent to the time for the other person to learn it. By the time people learn it, they often move on to other jobs and often the value the project got is low for the time spent. All that said, if you or I had unlimited resources this would still be the case. We'd have a bunch of newly hired people who don't know what to do and only a small number of (very overworked) people to enable them. It would still be hard for everyone. The big win would be you could be a positive example: we use it, so we contribute. People need to see this. We need to encourage people to follow that example. It is possible to start small and slowly work towards bigger things. It does take constant guidance and someone with time to help and that is the big trick. People frequently don't get too far and that's another challenge and a real opportunity cost if it doesn't work. We can greatly lower that risk if we can get a few people like you together and teach a handful of people how to contribute at once. Maybe if we can get a few others signed up, we can setup some kind of semi-regular zoom meetings to help people find a way in. You could lean on each other as you go. This greatly helps in feeling safe asking "stupid" questions as you know others who need the answer. Then there are more people to help others get in and we start to get back on our feet again. Are there others in Bert's position who have employer support to contribute but aren't sure where to start? -David > On Mar 19, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > wrote: > > Hi David, > > Thank you for your extensive and personal email. It is good to hear the > back story of these projects now and then. > > I have to admit I'm in the same boat as Vicente, I would like to > contribute, I can commit work time, but the sheer volume of the project is > intimidating at least and makes it hard to get started. > So I would be willing to support development financially, preferably in a > way that gets most of the money to the people who do the work, or the ones > that pay their paycheck. > > That however is not solving the real problem, the lack of commiters to the > project. Ideally there would be a way for lesser gods, like myself, to > take small bites of the project, instead of eating the whole elephant. > The question obviously is, is that even possible? > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > From: "David Blevins" > To: users@tomee.apache.org > Date: 19-03-2024 03:20 > Subject:Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will > Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project, but > testing >> the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very far from > what >> I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much time... > family >> and work consumes almost all my time. >> >> I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I would love > to >> see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I guess that >> the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund this > specific >> project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the US, does >> anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country in > Europe)? > > First, I just wa
Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
Hi David, Thank you for your extensive and personal email. It is good to hear the back story of these projects now and then. I have to admit I'm in the same boat as Vicente, I would like to contribute, I can commit work time, but the sheer volume of the project is intimidating at least and makes it hard to get started. So I would be willing to support development financially, preferably in a way that gets most of the money to the people who do the work, or the ones that pay their paycheck. That however is not solving the real problem, the lack of commiters to the project. Ideally there would be a way for lesser gods, like myself, to take small bites of the project, instead of eating the whole elephant. The question obviously is, is that even possible? Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards Bart van Leeuwen From: "David Blevins" To: users@tomee.apache.org Date: 19-03-2024 03:20 Subject:Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello wrote: > > Hi, > > I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project, but testing > the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very far from what > I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much time... family > and work consumes almost all my time. > > I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I would love to > see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I guess that > the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund this specific > project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the US, does > anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country in Europe)? First, I just want to say on a personal level, I find your email touching. Most people only ask what can I get and not what can I give. The world needs more people like you. Donations to Apache aren't used to fund development of Apache projects. The foundation in terms of being a corporation is actually incredibly small; less than 10 employees and contractors combined. The funding Apache gets goes to that very tiny crew and covers infrastructure, legal, the conferences Apache coordinates and some limited marketing. Everything else including the board of directors are all volunteers. What that means is there is no way for you to sponsor "the project", you would have to single out individuals and sponsor them directly. I've used Github sponsors to sponsor a few of the people I saw contributing, such as Daniel Dias, Richard Zowalla and Thomas Andraschko. They take 10% and and handle tax. I agree with your perspective on not wanting to sacrifice family time for open source. Unfortunately it is the main source of contribution for most Apache projects and the main reason people burn out and stop contributing. I used to encourage people to contribute in their spare time and did so myself. TomEE 1.0 to 1.5 were created and shipped by people working in their spare time. We would frequently use vacation time to hack on open source together, cut releases, etc. The 1.5 release was actually cut while Jean-Louis was in the hospital while his wife was giving birth to their second kid and I was on vacation helping. On my side I ended up having to quit my job in order to get permission to work on TomEE in my spare time after having gotten in some hot water for taking a week off to cut the 1.0. I later learned Jonathan Gallimore had to apply similar pressure to his employer to get the permission to also work in his spare time. There was some occasional employer support. Atos/Worldline was supportive as they used OpenEJB and had a smart manager, Jean-Francois James, that saw benefit in allowing some contribution on company time when they had a specific need (this is where Jean-Louis Monteiro, Romain Manni-Bucau worked). IBM was very supportive of me in the 2005 - 2010 range when Geronimo was active as long as it benefit Geronimo and my contributions did not compete with Geronimo (which of course they did and that ultimately meant I had to work on my spare time most of the time). That's the very delicate balance that built TomEE. I no longer encourage individuals to sacrifice personal/family time to work on Open Source projects, I don't feel it is ethical anymore. I admit that I also do not find it ethical for you as an individual to sponsor other individuals. It's that the majority of contribution comes from individuals contributing in their family time (not going to call it "spare" time), while the majority of consumers are for profit companies. I can't advise people to use their remaining time after work to contribute to Open Source. This primarily benefits the employer using the software and comes at the expense to your family. Nor can I advise people to use the money they
Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?)
> On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello wrote: > > Hi, > > I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project, but testing > the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very far from what > I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much time... family > and work consumes almost all my time. > > I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I would love to > see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I guess that > the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund this specific > project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the US, does > anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country in Europe)? First, I just want to say on a personal level, I find your email touching. Most people only ask what can I get and not what can I give. The world needs more people like you. Donations to Apache aren't used to fund development of Apache projects. The foundation in terms of being a corporation is actually incredibly small; less than 10 employees and contractors combined. The funding Apache gets goes to that very tiny crew and covers infrastructure, legal, the conferences Apache coordinates and some limited marketing. Everything else including the board of directors are all volunteers. What that means is there is no way for you to sponsor "the project", you would have to single out individuals and sponsor them directly. I've used Github sponsors to sponsor a few of the people I saw contributing, such as Daniel Dias, Richard Zowalla and Thomas Andraschko. They take 10% and and handle tax. I agree with your perspective on not wanting to sacrifice family time for open source. Unfortunately it is the main source of contribution for most Apache projects and the main reason people burn out and stop contributing. I used to encourage people to contribute in their spare time and did so myself. TomEE 1.0 to 1.5 were created and shipped by people working in their spare time. We would frequently use vacation time to hack on open source together, cut releases, etc. The 1.5 release was actually cut while Jean-Louis was in the hospital while his wife was giving birth to their second kid and I was on vacation helping. On my side I ended up having to quit my job in order to get permission to work on TomEE in my spare time after having gotten in some hot water for taking a week off to cut the 1.0. I later learned Jonathan Gallimore had to apply similar pressure to his employer to get the permission to also work in his spare time. There was some occasional employer support. Atos/Worldline was supportive as they used OpenEJB and had a smart manager, Jean-Francois James, that saw benefit in allowing some contribution on company time when they had a specific need (this is where Jean-Louis Monteiro, Romain Manni-Bucau worked). IBM was very supportive of me in the 2005 - 2010 range when Geronimo was active as long as it benefit Geronimo and my contributions did not compete with Geronimo (which of course they did and that ultimately meant I had to work on my spare time most of the time). That's the very delicate balance that built TomEE. I no longer encourage individuals to sacrifice personal/family time to work on Open Source projects, I don't feel it is ethical anymore. I admit that I also do not find it ethical for you as an individual to sponsor other individuals. It's that the majority of contribution comes from individuals contributing in their family time (not going to call it "spare" time), while the majority of consumers are for profit companies. I can't advise people to use their remaining time after work to contribute to Open Source. This primarily benefits the employer using the software and comes at the expense to your family. Nor can I advise people to use the money they earned working for their employer to sponsor an individual contributor. Yes, the contributor benefits, but there's no denying you're essentially helping cover the cost of the open source software your employer uses and using money your family needs to do it. When a company moves onto an open source project to save money and that project is only possible because of individual contributors, it is essentially the families of those contributors who enabled that savings. Essentially cost has been shifted from the employer to employees and their families. Unless of course the companies and for-profit consumers also contribute. Then I no longer have any issue. Then it's as open source is mean to to be: everyone who uses also contributes. Open source is like stone soup. It's a shared cost model. Everyone shares the cost by contributing a little and everyone eats. Without that, however, it isn't a beautiful story where everyone shares and everyone eats. It becomes a story where the townfolk all give their last carrots and potatoes to make soup for the wealthy. None of
Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?
Hi, I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project, but testing the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very far from what I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much time... family and work consumes almost all my time. I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I would love to see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I guess that the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund this specific project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the US, does anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country in Europe)? On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 5:33 PM Richard Zowalla wrote: > Hi Francois, > > first of all: Please do not cross post between list. Most people on > dev@ are also subscribed on user@ > > TomEE is an open source project, so it fully depends on the community > to step up and getting a TomEE 10.x out of the door. So instead of > asking "will we have at some point TomEE 10.x", the better question > would be "how can I or my team help to get a TomEE 10.x out of the door > soon". > > We are (imho) close to a milestone release (far away from passing the > EE10 tck) but with sufficient coverage of the most important aspects. > However, the current main branch depends on SNAPSHOT dependencies, so > we need to get rid of them before doing a milestone release. If you > have followed my last mails on dev@, you might have seen, that it > currently hangs on batchee to get a EE10 compatible release out of the > door. > > What would activley help? > > We need more resources / contributors to keep going. Most people are > volunteers and are not working full time on TomEE. Keeping up with the > spec changes, etc. is really difficult and every active contributor > would really help. > > > Best > Richard > > > Am Donnerstag, dem 14.03.2024 um 15:57 + schrieb COURTAULT > Francois: > > THALES GROUP LIMITED DISTRIBUTION to email recipients > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > Will we have at some point TomEE 10.x ? > > > > Best Regards. > > > > > > > >
Re: Will Tomee be discontinued ?
Hi Francois, first of all: Please do not cross post between list. Most people on dev@ are also subscribed on user@ TomEE is an open source project, so it fully depends on the community to step up and getting a TomEE 10.x out of the door. So instead of asking "will we have at some point TomEE 10.x", the better question would be "how can I or my team help to get a TomEE 10.x out of the door soon". We are (imho) close to a milestone release (far away from passing the EE10 tck) but with sufficient coverage of the most important aspects. However, the current main branch depends on SNAPSHOT dependencies, so we need to get rid of them before doing a milestone release. If you have followed my last mails on dev@, you might have seen, that it currently hangs on batchee to get a EE10 compatible release out of the door. What would activley help? We need more resources / contributors to keep going. Most people are volunteers and are not working full time on TomEE. Keeping up with the spec changes, etc. is really difficult and every active contributor would really help. Best Richard Am Donnerstag, dem 14.03.2024 um 15:57 + schrieb COURTAULT Francois: > THALES GROUP LIMITED DISTRIBUTION to email recipients > > Hello everyone, > > Will we have at some point TomEE 10.x ? > > Best Regards. > > >
Will Tomee be discontinued ?
THALES GROUP LIMITED DISTRIBUTION to email recipients Hello everyone, Will we have at some point TomEE 10.x ? Best Regards.
