Re: [VFB] Fur / Hair Swap
I've been debating whether to go with a Voljic-Moser hybrid Caddis dry or go with a minimally modified version of the Klinkhammer, what I term a "Mink"hammer... the later won out, so I'm tying up a bunch of size 12 minkhammers with a beige to tups-pink mink FUR for the fly's body and freshly self-carded sheep's WOOL for the post... not sure if the wool qualifies as "fur or hair", but I think the mink has me covered :D I should have the last few tied up soon, after I unpack the vise from being out of the house and such, and hope to send things ASAP (with a few Voljc caddis dries or some hodge-podge of fishable realistic flies I feel like throwing together at the last minute lol) Enjoy, and thanks again, -Pete On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Rene Zillmann wrote: > > Swappers, > I finally decided to ty a 'Kangaroo Soft Hackle'. > Found a patch of kangaroo fur, very soft stuff, in my secret drawer. > It is just a fur tail, some flashabou dubbing for the body, and fur tied > in split thread for the hackle. > Really tricky to dubb the flashabou, rope dub isn't working without > modifications. Make a noodle and than rope, this works. > And no, Don, no EP in the secret drawer > Rene > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" > group. > > To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en > > VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com > -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
RE: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Joe, what issue, the latest I received was the Autumn issue. George _ From: Joseph Fusco, Sr. [mailto:jfusc...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 20:49 To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies Joyce - The latest FLY TYER magazine has an artticle on tying a classic spider. -- Joe Fusco, Sr. Member of The Missouri Trout Fishermen's Association, The International Brotherhood of the Flymph and The Virtual Fly Box REMEMBER CANCER IS A WORD NOT A SENTENCE Reply to: jfusc...@gmail.com On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Joyce Westphal wrote: I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where the body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie these flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds want to know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
Re: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Hans, Can you email me off-list with your email addy? What i am using keeps bouncing. dordes at bresnan dot net Don - Original Message - From: "Hans Weilenmann" To: Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies Joyce, The recipe shows the order. Tie in hackle at eye, touching turns of silk towards bend. Untwist and split silk, insert a tiny amount of dubbing, and re-twist silk to run towards eye first in open turn ribbing, and then touching turns for a slender thorax. Wrap hackle away from eye towards the hanging silk, trap hackle tip and continue cutting through hackle wraps to eye for the whip finish. There is no dubbing under the hackle in the Badger & Orange example. On other patterns there may be, and often is a twisting together of hackle and split-thread-dubbed thread or just hackle/silk twisted together as in the following examples: Olive Spider (variant) Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 Thread: Pearsall's Gossamer, yellow Body: Tying silk - kept very short Hackle: Hackle, dark olive - twisted together with tying thread before wrapping Head: Fluey barbs from base of hackle, dubbed onto thread Grizzly Spider (variant) Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 Thread: Benecchi 12/0, black Body: Tying thread - kept very short Hackle: Hackle, grizzly - twisted together with tying thread before wrapping Note: With a nod and a wink in the Stewart's Black Spider direction Cheers, Hans W On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Joyce Westphal wrote: > Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to see. Do you leave a tag of the > tying > silk at the back, to become the rib, or do you start at the eye of the > hook, > go back to the body point between the barb and point of the fly, then wind > forward and then go back to the end of the body and using the single > twisted > thread come back up for the rib? I don't see any dubbing at all under the > hackle..is there some but just a little or is there none? Thanks. Joyce > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Hans Weilenmann > > wrote: >> >> Joyce, >> >> I tie a lot of spiders, or wingless wets as I mostly call them (other >> names one might see are flymphs or softhackles) >> >> Some of the ones I tie (and fish) are classic established patterns, >> others use more contemporary materials or techniques. >> >> Here is a typical example. Classic proportions, classic materials for >> the most part, but contemporary technique: >> >> Badger & Orange >> Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 >> Thread: Pearsall's Gossamer, orange >> Hackle: Hen, badger >> Body: Tying silk >> Rib: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, open turns >> Thorax: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, touching turns >> >> Stacks more examples here: >> http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweilenmann/hweilenmann.htm >> >> Cheers, >> Hans >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Joyce Westphal >> wrote: >> > Thanks for the suggestions, but I did not make myself clear. I'm >> > talking >> > about the English style soft hackle spider fly. On the internet I see >> > some >> > with the body starting at the point of the hook, others with it at the >> > barb, >> > and others with it starting somewhere in between. I'd like to make them >> > like >> > true English style spiders. Joyce >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Don Ordes wrote: >> >> >> >> Joyce- Just look on the web, you'll find one. >> >> >> >> >> >> Oo, Buggs, that was bad. >> >> >> >> >> >> If you are tying a water spider, the key is to tie a slim beetle-style >> >> body with a fine-wire hook. It's lighter if you tie an extended foam >> >> body >> >> with a tuft of light parachute to make it settle down right-side up. >> >> Depending on how much time you want to spend on the legs, you can make >> >> a >> >> bent leg or knotted leg, but they need to suspend the body over the >> >> water >> >> and make the classic water-tension foot-prints in the water- hence >> >> light fly >> >> and floatant. >> >> >> >> If you are making a terrestrial, a black or tan spider has worked for >> >> me- >> >> dry or wet. >> >> >> >> Hook size, shape, shank length, etc. matters less than fly design, as >> >> the >> >> hook has to allow the fly to do what it is intended to do. >> >> >> >> DonO >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> >> From: Joyce Westphal >> >> To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:49 PM >> >> Subject: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies >> >> I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where the >> >> body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie these >> >> flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds >> >> want to >> >> know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" >> >> group. >> >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com >> >> To unsubscribe
Re: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Thanks. That's what I needed to know. Joyce On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Hans Weilenmann wrote: > Joyce, > > The recipe shows the order. > > Tie in hackle at eye, touching turns of silk towards bend. Untwist and > split silk, insert a tiny amount of dubbing, and re-twist silk to run > towards eye first in open turn ribbing, and then touching turns for a > slender thorax. Wrap hackle away from eye towards the hanging silk, > trap hackle tip and continue cutting through hackle wraps to eye for > the whip finish. There is no dubbing under the hackle in the Badger & > Orange example. > > On other patterns there may be, and often is a twisting together of > hackle and split-thread-dubbed thread or just hackle/silk twisted > together as in the following examples: > > Olive Spider (variant) > Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 > Thread: Pearsall's Gossamer, yellow > Body: Tying silk - kept very short > Hackle: Hackle, dark olive - twisted together with tying thread before > wrapping > Head: Fluey barbs from base of hackle, dubbed onto thread > > Grizzly Spider (variant) > Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 > Thread: Benecchi 12/0, black > Body: Tying thread - kept very short > Hackle: Hackle, grizzly - twisted together with tying thread before > wrapping > > Note: With a nod and a wink in the Stewart's Black Spider direction > > Cheers, > Hans W > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Joyce Westphal > wrote: > > Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to see. Do you leave a tag of the > tying > > silk at the back, to become the rib, or do you start at the eye of the > hook, > > go back to the body point between the barb and point of the fly, then > wind > > forward and then go back to the end of the body and using the single > twisted > > thread come back up for the rib? I don't see any dubbing at all under the > > hackle..is there some but just a little or is there none? Thanks. Joyce > > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Hans Weilenmann < > hans.weilenm...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> Joyce, > >> > >> I tie a lot of spiders, or wingless wets as I mostly call them (other > >> names one might see are flymphs or softhackles) > >> > >> Some of the ones I tie (and fish) are classic established patterns, > >> others use more contemporary materials or techniques. > >> > >> Here is a typical example. Classic proportions, classic materials for > >> the most part, but contemporary technique: > >> > >> Badger & Orange > >> Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 > >> Thread: Pearsall's Gossamer, orange > >> Hackle: Hen, badger > >> Body: Tying silk > >> Rib: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, open turns > >> Thorax: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, touching turns > >> > >> Stacks more examples here: > >> http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweilenmann/hweilenmann.htm > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Hans > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Joyce Westphal > >> wrote: > >> > Thanks for the suggestions, but I did not make myself clear. I'm > talking > >> > about the English style soft hackle spider fly. On the internet I see > >> > some > >> > with the body starting at the point of the hook, others with it at the > >> > barb, > >> > and others with it starting somewhere in between. I'd like to make > them > >> > like > >> > true English style spiders. Joyce > >> > > >> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Don Ordes wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Joyce- Just look on the web, you'll find one. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Oo, Buggs, that was bad. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> If you are tying a water spider, the key is to tie a slim > beetle-style > >> >> body with a fine-wire hook. It's lighter if you tie an extended foam > >> >> body > >> >> with a tuft of light parachute to make it settle down right-side up. > >> >> Depending on how much time you want to spend on the legs, you can > make > >> >> a > >> >> bent leg or knotted leg, but they need to suspend the body over the > >> >> water > >> >> and make the classic water-tension foot-prints in the water- hence > >> >> light fly > >> >> and floatant. > >> >> > >> >> If you are making a terrestrial, a black or tan spider has worked for > >> >> me- > >> >> dry or wet. > >> >> > >> >> Hook size, shape, shank length, etc. matters less than fly design, > as > >> >> the > >> >> hook has to allow the fly to do what it is intended to do. > >> >> > >> >> DonO > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> - Original Message - > >> >> From: Joyce Westphal > >> >> To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:49 PM > >> >> Subject: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies > >> >> I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where > the > >> >> body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie > these > >> >> flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds > >> >> want to > >> >> know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "
Re: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Thanks. That's exactly what I wanted to see. Do you leave a tag of the tying silk at the back, to become the rib, or do you start at the eye of the hook, go back to the body point between the barb and point of the fly, then wind forward and then go back to the end of the body and using the single twisted thread come back up for the rib? I don't see any dubbing at all under the hackle..is there some but just a little or is there none? Thanks. Joyce On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Hans Weilenmann wrote: > Joyce, > > I tie a lot of spiders, or wingless wets as I mostly call them (other > names one might see are flymphs or softhackles) > > Some of the ones I tie (and fish) are classic established patterns, > others use more contemporary materials or techniques. > > Here is a typical example. Classic proportions, classic materials for > the most part, but contemporary technique: > > Badger & Orange > Hook: Kamasan B175 #14 > Thread: Pearsall's Gossamer, orange > Hackle: Hen, badger > Body: Tying silk > Rib: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, open turns > Thorax: Fox squirrel, dyed light brown - in split thread, touching turns > > Stacks more examples here: > http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweilenmann/hweilenmann.htm > > Cheers, > Hans > > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Joyce Westphal > wrote: > > Thanks for the suggestions, but I did not make myself clear. I'm talking > > about the English style soft hackle spider fly. On the internet I see > some > > with the body starting at the point of the hook, others with it at the > barb, > > and others with it starting somewhere in between. I'd like to make them > like > > true English style spiders. Joyce > > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Don Ordes wrote: > >> > >> Joyce- Just look on the web, you'll find one. > >> > >> > >> Oo, Buggs, that was bad. > >> > >> > >> If you are tying a water spider, the key is to tie a slim beetle-style > >> body with a fine-wire hook. It's lighter if you tie an extended foam > body > >> with a tuft of light parachute to make it settle down right-side up. > >> Depending on how much time you want to spend on the legs, you can make a > >> bent leg or knotted leg, but they need to suspend the body over the > water > >> and make the classic water-tension foot-prints in the water- hence light > fly > >> and floatant. > >> > >> If you are making a terrestrial, a black or tan spider has worked for > me- > >> dry or wet. > >> > >> Hook size, shape, shank length, etc. matters less than fly design, as > the > >> hook has to allow the fly to do what it is intended to do. > >> > >> DonO > >> > >> > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: Joyce Westphal > >> To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > >> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:49 PM > >> Subject: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies > >> I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where the > >> body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie these > >> flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds > want to > >> know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" > >> group. > >> > >> To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en > >> > >> VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" > >> group. > >> > >> To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en > >> > >> VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" > > group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en > > > > VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com > > > > -- > You have a Friend in Low Places > Hans Weilenmann, The Netherlands > http://www.danica.com/flytier > = > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" > group. > > To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?
[VFB] QUOTE FOR THE DAY
"The joy of owning fine tackle is so great that it is often difficult to distinguish between basic needs and the urge to possess that which delights the sensitivities. I have preached against indulgence, but in truth I am a sentimental moron when it comes to fishing tackle. How can one find adequate words to describe the sweet feel of a rod that makes casting an esthetic delight, yet which adds little to one's ability to catch fish?" "The Philosophical Fisherman" by Harold Blaisdell ><º> ** JIMMY D. MOORE, Amateur Radio Station WB5RHT Moon Holler Misfits Fishing & Hunting Club, author Past VP Guadalupe River Trout Unlimited, Member TOWA, North Zone Fishing Editor Emeritus,Texas Fish & Game Magazine, Scout Exec. BSA, Ret. Website - http://bigtroutman.tripod.com/index.html * <º>< -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
Re: [VFB] DVD... rolling thumbs
MeddelandeI see Nick is slacking off on his medications. You need professional help, my friend. You are the one that missed the personal tutoring offer when you met up with DonO at the Sowbug a few years ago. But Noo, you had to get loaded up on root-beer floats instead. Now you'll just have to wait. Rolling those thumbs is good exercise for the rope-dub. Buggs - Original Message - From: Niclas Runarsson To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 5:32 AM Subject: [VFB] DVD... rolling thumbs Me: That's the sh***y thing with living overseas. Others get their DVD's after a couple of days... while I have to wait and read about it. It's like being a child after Christmas, hearing all about the cool presents your friends got... while you aren't allowed to open your own until New Year's Eve. :o( Jester: Stop whining about everything and do something constructive! Me: Bahh! Who invited you in the conversation. Go back to your cross-stitching DVD. Jester: Did I hear some patronizing from that little cookie hole of yours... Me: Cross-stitching is for women who haven't found anything else to do with their time. Jester: Well, at least we can enjoy our DVD's... while others are rolling their thumbs whining. ... and so Jester wins another round. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
[VFB] DVD... rolling thumbs
Me: That's the sh***y thing with living overseas. Others get their DVD's after a couple of days... while I have to wait and read about it. It's like being a child after Christmas, hearing all about the cool presents your friends got... while you aren't allowed to open your own until New Year's Eve. :o( Jester: Stop whining about everything and do something constructive! Me: Bahh! Who invited you in the conversation. Go back to your cross-stitching DVD. Jester: Did I hear some patronizing from that little cookie hole of yours... Me: Cross-stitching is for women who haven't found anything else to do with their time. Jester: Well, at least we can enjoy our DVD's... while others are rolling their thumbs whining. ... and so Jester wins another round. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
RE: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Joyce http://www.spidersplus.co.uk/shop/results.asp?category=2 http://www.wetfly.co.uk/ http://www.practicalfly.co.uk/Spiders.html Tips. 1. skinny 2. lightly hackled 3. use the correct materials... 4. Silk bodies must be tied with Pure Silk Thread. Silk changes colour when wet, the orange silk of a partridge and orange becomes a rich mahogany colour when wet, whilst rayon or acetate thread stays bright orange. When anglers claim the old patterns dont work anymore, it is down to modern materials being used. 5. Herl bodies need a rib wound the opposite direction to the herl. wire is traditional but if the dressing dont call for a rib, use 1 pound nylon to rib invisibly. iain I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where the body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie these flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds want to know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce _ View your other email accounts from your Hotmail inbox. Add them now. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
RE: [VFB] re: help with spider type flies
Joyce What fly do you intend to tie ? Herl bodies often start at the barb and silk/quill bodies ofton start at the point. Roger Fogg - "A Handbook of North Country Trout Flies" shows a general starting point between point and barb. Roger Wooleys flies from the 1930's are started past the barb Sylvester Nemes -"Two centuries of soft hackle flies" generally start between point and barb. Let me know the patterns you after after i will see if i can supply photos iain I've been requested to tie some Spider flies..I need to know where the body starts..should it be over the barb or the point. If you tie these flies, or know how it should be done, kindly inform. Inquiring minds want to know and tie them correctly. Any tying hints are also welcome. Joyce _ Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to vfb-mail@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to vfb-mail-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com
