[Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and research
guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
Mellon project).

The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.

Gary Handman





duediligence.doc
Description: MS-Word document
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

[Videolib] Due diligence

[ghandman]

For those of you who had problems with the earlier attachment is now
posted at

http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/duediligence.html


with with Susan and Dennis Facebook/Linkedin recommendation  incorporated.


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Jessica Rosner]

Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmakers &
distributors.

I know I posted this but I will post it again so you can see what
happens when and educational institution does NOT in fact engage in
"due diligence" re copyright law. Actually this is a follow up to the
original Chronicle article, I strongly suggest you read the follow up
posts. I particularly like the part where some librarians tell authors
they should be grateful they were going to have their works available
illegally on line, since no one is taking out those books anyway.

http://laboratorium.net/archive/2011/09/15/hathitrust_single-handedly_sinks_orphan_works_refo

Also good luck on the "reasonable" price issue. Suppose you bought a
16mm print of a film for $1200 20 years ago. You reach the rights
holder and they say yes they will make you a DVD-R for $1,000, is that
"unreasonable"? It is after all less than you paid before?

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,   wrote:
> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and research
> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
> Mellon project).
>
> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>
> Gary Handman
>
>
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
> distributors.
>
>



-- 
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and risk
mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed is
sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.

I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.

gary


> Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
> in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
> the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
> contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
> in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
> be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
> rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
> have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
> plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
> to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
> arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmakers &
> distributors.
>
> I know I posted this but I will post it again so you can see what
> happens when and educational institution does NOT in fact engage in
> "due diligence" re copyright law. Actually this is a follow up to the
> original Chronicle article, I strongly suggest you read the follow up
> posts. I particularly like the part where some librarians tell authors
> they should be grateful they were going to have their works available
> illegally on line, since no one is taking out those books anyway.
>
> http://laboratorium.net/archive/2011/09/15/hathitrust_single-handedly_sinks_orphan_works_refo
>
> Also good luck on the "reasonable" price issue. Suppose you bought a
> 16mm print of a film for $1200 20 years ago. You reach the rights
> holder and they say yes they will make you a DVD-R for $1,000, is that
> "unreasonable"? It is after all less than you paid before?
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,   wrote:
>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
>> research
>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>> Mellon project).
>>
>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>
>> Gary Handman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> Media Consultant
> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Jessica Rosner]

Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
interest.

The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,   wrote:
> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and risk
> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed is
> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>
> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>
> gary
>
>
>> Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
>> in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
>> the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
>> contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
>> in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
>> be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
>> rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
>> have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
>> plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
>> to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
>> arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmakers &
>> distributors.
>>
>> I know I posted this but I will post it again so you can see what
>> happens when and educational institution does NOT in fact engage in
>> "due diligence" re copyright law. Actually this is a follow up to the
>> original Chronicle article, I strongly suggest you read the follow up
>> posts. I particularly like the part where some librarians tell authors
>> they should be grateful they were going to have their works available
>> illegally on line, since no one is taking out those books anyway.
>>
>> http://laboratorium.net/archive/2011/09/15/hathitrust_single-handedly_sinks_orphan_works_refo
>>
>> Also good luck on the "reasonable" price issue. Suppose you bought a
>> 16mm print of a film for $1200 20 years ago. You reach the rights
>> holder and they say yes they will make you a DVD-R for $1,000, is that
>> "unreasonable"? It is after all less than you paid before?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,   wrote:
>>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
>>> research
>>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>>> Mellon project).
>>>
>>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>>
>>> Gary Handman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jessica Rosner
>> Media Consultant
>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
>
> 510-643-8566
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> --Francois Truffaut
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
> distributors.
>



-- 
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video 

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Dennis Doros]

Perhaps I might not put it as strongly as Jessica, but yes, here are a few
suggestions for additions, as this is sort of a hobby and job for me to find
rights holders. And I know you can't do it (though should) for 1000+ films,
you're really only duping one at a time if you're following 108 correctly.
But anyway, just to put it out here for people who are desperate to find a
film...

1) Distributors first and foremost. (You're guidelines is really based on
calling Warner Brothers and not Milestone or Zeitgeist. If we no longer own
a film, we know 99% of the time who does and are willing to share. It is
very liable that you don't call the licensed distributor to see who owns the
distribution rights for a film.)
2) Frameworks listserve (this kind of question on finding contact
information for directors occurs at least once a day)
3) Facebook and LinkedIn (they can find you many, many directors and
producers)
4) Cinando.com (lists contact information for just about every distributor
in the world)
5) Directors Guild of America

There's many others, but this is where I start.

Best regards,
Dennis Doros
Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
PO Box 128
Harrington Park, NJ 07640
Phone: 201-767-3117
Fax: 201-767-3035
email: milefi...@gmail.com
www.milestonefilms.com
www.comebackafrica.com
www.yougottomove.com
www.ontheboweryfilm.com
www.arayafilm.com
www.exilesfilm.com
www.wordisoutmovie.com
www.killerofsheep.com

AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!

Follow Milestone on Twitter! 



On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  wrote:

> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and research
> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
> Mellon project).
>
> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>
> Gary Handman
>
>
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>


--
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Susan Weber]

Gary,
Great project. Thanks for sharing this.
We went through a project about 5 years ago where we were trying to 
locate the copyright owners of 16mm films.

A number of our sources were international.
Believe it or not, Facebook brought us some hits which other sources did 
not, where we knew the Director but not
a distributor.  Today, there is Linkedin, also, so that may be another 
font of sources.


Susan

On 22/09/2011 8:41 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:

Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and research
guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
Mellon project).

The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.

Gary Handman



  



VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.
  


--

Susan Weber

Media Librarian
Library
T  604.323.5533
F  604.323.5512
swe...@langara.bc.ca 

Langara. 

100 West 49th Avenue, Vancouver, BC, V5Y 2Z6

Please consider the environment before printing.
CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged 
information. If you are
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email from your system.



VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Thanks, Dennis

Of course distributors first and foremost...(see my note about the
counter-productivity of dealing with studios)

By the way:  these protocols are focused on non-fiction film much more
than features.  The Mellon project in general--at least at Berkeley--will
concentrate on these types of films almost exclusively.  The fact that
features go in and out of distribution so capriciously makes dealing with
them under 108 more than a bit of both a drag and a risk.

Again:  I think we're all about doing what can be reasonably and
expeditiously done to demonstrate good faith and as thorough job of
looking for commercial alternatives to invoking 108.

gary


> Perhaps I might not put it as strongly as Jessica, but yes, here are a few
> suggestions for additions, as this is sort of a hobby and job for me to
> find
> rights holders. And I know you can't do it (though should) for 1000+
> films,
> you're really only duping one at a time if you're following 108 correctly.
> But anyway, just to put it out here for people who are desperate to find a
> film...
>
> 1) Distributors first and foremost. (You're guidelines is really based on
> calling Warner Brothers and not Milestone or Zeitgeist. If we no longer
> own
> a film, we know 99% of the time who does and are willing to share. It is
> very liable that you don't call the licensed distributor to see who owns
> the
> distribution rights for a film.)
> 2) Frameworks listserve (this kind of question on finding contact
> information for directors occurs at least once a day)
> 3) Facebook and LinkedIn (they can find you many, many directors and
> producers)
> 4) Cinando.com (lists contact information for just about every distributor
> in the world)
> 5) Directors Guild of America
>
> There's many others, but this is where I start.
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefi...@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.comebackafrica.com
> www.yougottomove.com
> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> 
> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
>
> Follow Milestone on Twitter! 
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  wrote:
>
>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
>> research
>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>> Mellon project).
>>
>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>
>> Gary Handman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> effective
>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Jessica Rosner]

The problem Dennis is that this project is specifically NOT set up to
find right holders, in fact it makes a point NOT to find them. The
sole issue is can I buy a cheap DVD of this title right now, not would
the rights holder sell me one, do they have plans to release one soon
etc.

It was one thing when I heard this at ALA from a person I am sure you
know, I am honestly shocked that Gary would subscribe to such a
philosophy. Again I urge people to read the link posted re the
HahtiTrust project and those people claimed they WHERE searching for
rights holders.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Dennis Doros  wrote:
> Perhaps I might not put it as strongly as Jessica, but yes, here are a few
> suggestions for additions, as this is sort of a hobby and job for me to find
> rights holders. And I know you can't do it (though should) for 1000+ films,
> you're really only duping one at a time if you're following 108 correctly.
> But anyway, just to put it out here for people who are desperate to find a
> film...
> 1) Distributors first and foremost. (You're guidelines is really based on
> calling Warner Brothers and not Milestone or Zeitgeist. If we no longer own
> a film, we know 99% of the time who does and are willing to share. It is
> very liable that you don't call the licensed distributor to see who owns the
> distribution rights for a film.)
> 2) Frameworks listserve (this kind of question on finding contact
> information for directors occurs at least once a day)
> 3) Facebook and LinkedIn (they can find you many, many directors and
> producers)
> 4) Cinando.com (lists contact information for just about every distributor
> in the world)
> 5) Directors Guild of America
> There's many others, but this is where I start.
> Best regards,
> Dennis Doros
> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefi...@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.comebackafrica.com
> www.yougottomove.com
> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
> Follow Milestone on Twitter!
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  wrote:
>>
>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and research
>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>> Mellon project).
>>
>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>
>> Gary Handman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as
>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>



-- 
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Hi Susan

I think adding Facebook (and/or Linkedin) is a very good idea, and we'll
do it.

Thanks!

g.




> Gary,
> Great project. Thanks for sharing this.
> We went through a project about 5 years ago where we were trying to
> locate the copyright owners of 16mm films.
> A number of our sources were international.
> Believe it or not, Facebook brought us some hits which other sources did
> not, where we knew the Director but not
> a distributor.  Today, there is Linkedin, also, so that may be another
> font of sources.
>
> Susan
>
> On 22/09/2011 8:41 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:
>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
>> research
>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>> Mellon project).
>>
>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>
>> Gary Handman
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>
> --
>
> Susan Weber
>
> Media Librarian
> Library
> T  604.323.5533
> F  604.323.5512
> swe...@langara.bc.ca 
>
> Langara. 
>
> 100 West 49th Avenue, Vancouver, BC, V5Y 2Z6
>
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> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Jessica, take your meds

gary


> The problem Dennis is that this project is specifically NOT set up to
> find right holders, in fact it makes a point NOT to find them. The
> sole issue is can I buy a cheap DVD of this title right now, not would
> the rights holder sell me one, do they have plans to release one soon
> etc.
>
> It was one thing when I heard this at ALA from a person I am sure you
> know, I am honestly shocked that Gary would subscribe to such a
> philosophy. Again I urge people to read the link posted re the
> HahtiTrust project and those people claimed they WHERE searching for
> rights holders.
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Dennis Doros 
> wrote:
>> Perhaps I might not put it as strongly as Jessica, but yes, here are a
>> few
>> suggestions for additions, as this is sort of a hobby and job for me to
>> find
>> rights holders. And I know you can't do it (though should) for 1000+
>> films,
>> you're really only duping one at a time if you're following 108
>> correctly.
>> But anyway, just to put it out here for people who are desperate to find
>> a
>> film...
>> 1) Distributors first and foremost. (You're guidelines is really based
>> on
>> calling Warner Brothers and not Milestone or Zeitgeist. If we no longer
>> own
>> a film, we know 99% of the time who does and are willing to share. It is
>> very liable that you don't call the licensed distributor to see who owns
>> the
>> distribution rights for a film.)
>> 2) Frameworks listserve (this kind of question on finding contact
>> information for directors occurs at least once a day)
>> 3) Facebook and LinkedIn (they can find you many, many directors and
>> producers)
>> 4) Cinando.com (lists contact information for just about every
>> distributor
>> in the world)
>> 5) Directors Guild of America
>> There's many others, but this is where I start.
>> Best regards,
>> Dennis Doros
>> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
>> PO Box 128
>> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
>> Phone: 201-767-3117
>> Fax: 201-767-3035
>> email: milefi...@gmail.com
>> www.milestonefilms.com
>> www.comebackafrica.com
>> www.yougottomove.com
>> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
>> www.arayafilm.com
>> www.exilesfilm.com
>> www.wordisoutmovie.com
>> www.killerofsheep.com
>> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
>> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
>> Follow Milestone on Twitter!
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  wrote:
>>>
>>> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
>>> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
>>> research
>>> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
>>> Mellon project).
>>>
>>> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think is
>>> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>>>
>>> Gary Handman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>> serve as
>>> an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> effective
>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> Media Consultant
> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Jessica...

The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in these
protocols) is to find rights holders...

g




> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
> interest.
>
> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,   wrote:
>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and risk
>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed is
>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>>
>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>>
>> gary
>>
>>
>>> Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
>>> in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
>>> the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
>>> contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
>>> in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
>>> be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
>>> rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
>>> have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
>>> plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
>>> to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
>>> arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmakers &
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>> I know I posted this but I will post it again so you can see what
>>> happens when and educational institution does NOT in fact engage in
>>> "due diligence" re copyright law. Actually this is a follow up to the
>>> original Chronicle article, I strongly suggest you read the follow up
>>> posts. I particularly like the part where some librarians tell authors
>>> they should be grateful they were going to have their works available
>>> illegally on line, since no one is taking out those books anyway.
>>>
>>> http://laboratorium.net/archive/2011/09/15/hathitrust_single-handedly_sinks_orphan_works_refo
>>>
>>> Also good luck on the "reasonable" price issue. Suppose you bought a
>>> 16mm print of a film for $1200 20 years ago. You reach the rights
>>> holder and they say yes they will make you a DVD-R for $1,000, is that
>>> "unreasonable"? It is after all less than you paid before?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  
>>> wrote:
 Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
 going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
 research
 guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
 Mellon project).

 The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think
 is
 reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.

 Gary Handman




 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
 issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
 acquisition,bibliographic
 control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
 in
 libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
 serve
 as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
 channel
 of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
 producers and distributors.


>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Media Consultant
>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
>>> serve
>>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>>> of
>>> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>>> producers and distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
>> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel
>> of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
>> producers and distributors.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> 

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Jessica Rosner]

Gary,
Your own link states that one should NOT contact studios because they
will just say no The framework is shoddy at best. If you really want
to find rights holder you can use LOC for a lot more than stuff past
1978 it just takes more time and possibly money.

As I have told you and others a a major person involved in this
project stated openly at an ALA session that one should NOT try to
contact rights holders. I believe they are far more active in this
project than you. This response involved a 16mm print of French film
that was not especially rare and whose owners could easily have been
unidentified. My guess if you they had been contacted they would have
quoted a rather high price , but heck that is what French Rights
holders do. A wide array of venues in the US do pay them very high
fees to project their films so who decides that if they tell you they
want  500 Euros to make a DVD of their 20 minute short that is not
reasonable? The point is a roomful of librarians were told NOT to try
to contact the rights holder. Your "due diligence " list is
specifically aimed at finding out if a film is available not who owns
it. If the Carnegie folks want to help find out who owns rare films
perhaps they could help pay for a decent copyright researcher? It is
really not that hard to find out who owns the vast majority of films,
IF you want to, but again the point of this project is not to contact
and work with rights holders , it is to find a way to make films that
for whatever reason rights holders have chosen not to release
available without paying them a penny.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM,   wrote:
> Jessica...
>
> The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in these
> protocols) is to find rights holders...
>
> g
>
>
>
>
>> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
>> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
>> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
>> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
>> interest.
>>
>> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,   wrote:
>>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and risk
>>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed is
>>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>>>
>>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>>>
>>> gary
>>>
>>>
 Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
 in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
 the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
 contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
 in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
 be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
 rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
 have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
 plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
 to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
 arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmakers &
 distributors.

 I know I posted this but I will post it again so you can see what
 happens when and educational institution does NOT in fact engage in
 "due diligence" re copyright law. Actually this is a follow up to the
 original Chronicle article, I strongly suggest you read the follow up
 posts. I particularly like the part where some librarians tell authors
 they should be grateful they were going to have their works available
 illegally on line, since no one is taking out those books anyway.

 http://laboratorium.net/archive/2011/09/15/hathitrust_single-handedly_sinks_orphan_works_refo

 Also good luck on the "reasonable" price issue. Suppose you bought a
 16mm print of a film for $1200 20 years ago. You reach the rights
 holder and they say yes they will make you a DVD-R for $1,000, is that
 "unreasonable"? It is after all less than you paid before?

 On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM,  
 wrote:
> Following on the, um, lively 108 discussion of the past few days, I am
> going to share some ideas regarding appropriate due diligence and
> research
> guidelines Berkeley is developing (in connection with the NYU/Berkeley
> Mellon project).
>
> The attached represents preliminary thinking regarding what we think
> is
> reasonable research in advance of invoking 108.
>
> Gary Handman
>
>
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
> acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats
> in
>

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Dennis Doros]

Jessica (and Gary),

I think I should step in a state the obvious. You can have a 100 pages of
due diligence regulations but it only works when the audiovisual person
wants to be honest, find the distributor or copyright holder and pay for
rights and/or work hard to get permission. Due diligence is really easy when
you *don't* want to find the owner. BUT a large majority of people on this
listserv are here to do their jobs properly and ethically -- even if I don't
agree sometimes in the ideas expressed here on pushing the envelope of
copyright.

Jessica, we all know Gary is a champion of distributors, filmmakers and
films -- especially those films so far beneath even *my* guilty pleasure
trash meter that they make SHHH! THE OCTOPUS look like GONE WITH THE WIND.
 ;-)

And Gary, if anything I suggested be added to the report, I would be
happier, of course!

The Dennis, 16mm projector guy (and by coincidence, I just put up a photo on
Facebook of myself with my AV geek friend in high school back in those days)
Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
PO Box 128
Harrington Park, NJ 07640
Phone: 201-767-3117
Fax: 201-767-3035
email: milefi...@gmail.com
www.milestonefilms.com
www.comebackafrica.com
www.yougottomove.com
www.ontheboweryfilm.com
www.arayafilm.com
www.exilesfilm.com
www.wordisoutmovie.com
www.killerofsheep.com

AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!

Follow Milestone on Twitter! 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jessica Rosner
wrote:

> Gary,
> Your own link states that one should NOT contact studios because they
> will just say no The framework is shoddy at best. If you really want
> to find rights holder you can use LOC for a lot more than stuff past
> 1978 it just takes more time and possibly money.
>
> As I have told you and others a a major person involved in this
> project stated openly at an ALA session that one should NOT try to
> contact rights holders. I believe they are far more active in this
> project than you. This response involved a 16mm print of French film
> that was not especially rare and whose owners could easily have been
> unidentified. My guess if you they had been contacted they would have
> quoted a rather high price , but heck that is what French Rights
> holders do. A wide array of venues in the US do pay them very high
> fees to project their films so who decides that if they tell you they
> want  500 Euros to make a DVD of their 20 minute short that is not
> reasonable? The point is a roomful of librarians were told NOT to try
> to contact the rights holder. Your "due diligence " list is
> specifically aimed at finding out if a film is available not who owns
> it. If the Carnegie folks want to help find out who owns rare films
> perhaps they could help pay for a decent copyright researcher? It is
> really not that hard to find out who owns the vast majority of films,
> IF you want to, but again the point of this project is not to contact
> and work with rights holders , it is to find a way to make films that
> for whatever reason rights holders have chosen not to release
> available without paying them a penny.
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM,   wrote:
> > Jessica...
> >
> > The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in
> these
> > protocols) is to find rights holders...
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
> >> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
> >> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
> >> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
> >> interest.
> >>
> >> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,  
> wrote:
> >>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and risk
> >>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed
> is
> >>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
> >>>
> >>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
> >>>
> >>> gary
> >>>
> >>>
>  Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this and
>  in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
>  the chief people involved in the Carnegie project) Make NO effort to
>  contact the actual RIGHTS HOLDER.  Whether this is a studio, a company
>  in Europe or an independent filmmaker under no circumstances would it
>  be considered "due diligence" not to make every effort to contact the
>  rights holder. IF the rights holder says they will not sell it and
>  have no intention of releasing it, you will have to decide if what you
>  plan to do is covered by 108, but you can't just say make no attempt
>  to contact a rights holder. I find this not only the height of
>  arrogance but just an outrageous attitude towards filmmake

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[Jessica Rosner]

Sorry but the Carnegie project is set up to find if a film is in
distribution and specifically disclaims contacting rights holders. I
don't think that is the belief of people on this listserv and I hope
they make it clear to Carnegie. I sincerely think it would be great if
some independent distributors were asked to be part of the project and
if contacting and working with rights holders were made a major
component of the project.

I am pretty sure no publishers were involved in the HathiTrust
imitative. Imagine how much better it would have been if they had
worked with publishers and authors and not tried to go around them.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Dennis Doros  wrote:
> Jessica (and Gary),
> I think I should step in a state the obvious. You can have a 100 pages of
> due diligence regulations but it only works when the audiovisual person
> wants to be honest, find the distributor or copyright holder and pay for
> rights and/or work hard to get permission. Due diligence is really easy when
> you don't want to find the owner. BUT a large majority of people on this
> listserv are here to do their jobs properly and ethically -- even if I don't
> agree sometimes in the ideas expressed here on pushing the envelope of
> copyright.
>
> Jessica, we all know Gary is a champion of distributors, filmmakers and
> films -- especially those films so far beneath even my guilty pleasure trash
> meter that they make SHHH! THE OCTOPUS look like GONE WITH THE WIND.  ;-)
> And Gary, if anything I suggested be added to the report, I would be
> happier, of course!
> The Dennis, 16mm projector guy (and by coincidence, I just put up a photo on
> Facebook of myself with my AV geek friend in high school back in those days)
> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefi...@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.comebackafrica.com
> www.yougottomove.com
> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
> Follow Milestone on Twitter!
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jessica Rosner 
> wrote:
>>
>> Gary,
>> Your own link states that one should NOT contact studios because they
>> will just say no The framework is shoddy at best. If you really want
>> to find rights holder you can use LOC for a lot more than stuff past
>> 1978 it just takes more time and possibly money.
>>
>> As I have told you and others a a major person involved in this
>> project stated openly at an ALA session that one should NOT try to
>> contact rights holders. I believe they are far more active in this
>> project than you. This response involved a 16mm print of French film
>> that was not especially rare and whose owners could easily have been
>> unidentified. My guess if you they had been contacted they would have
>> quoted a rather high price , but heck that is what French Rights
>> holders do. A wide array of venues in the US do pay them very high
>> fees to project their films so who decides that if they tell you they
>> want  500 Euros to make a DVD of their 20 minute short that is not
>> reasonable? The point is a roomful of librarians were told NOT to try
>> to contact the rights holder. Your "due diligence " list is
>> specifically aimed at finding out if a film is available not who owns
>> it. If the Carnegie folks want to help find out who owns rare films
>> perhaps they could help pay for a decent copyright researcher? It is
>> really not that hard to find out who owns the vast majority of films,
>> IF you want to, but again the point of this project is not to contact
>> and work with rights holders , it is to find a way to make films that
>> for whatever reason rights holders have chosen not to release
>> available without paying them a penny.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM,   wrote:
>> > Jessica...
>> >
>> > The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in
>> > these
>> > protocols) is to find rights holders...
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
>> >> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
>> >> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
>> >> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
>> >> interest.
>> >>
>> >> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,  
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and
>> >>> risk
>> >>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've developed
>> >>> is
>> >>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>> >>>
>> >>> gary
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement wi

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Thanks much, D.

I think starting out in an adversarial frame of mind is never
(underscore!) productive.

We're talking, after all, about libraries--L*I*B*R*A*R*I*E*S--not Bernie
Madoff's office, not British Petroleum.  While I think there is a fair
amount of misinformation (and, in a few cases, misguided assumption) out
there, I really believe that the majority of us are here to try to
preserve the cultural record and do the right thing by rights owners.

gary


> Jessica (and Gary),
>
> I think I should step in a state the obvious. You can have a 100 pages of
> due diligence regulations but it only works when the audiovisual person
> wants to be honest, find the distributor or copyright holder and pay for
> rights and/or work hard to get permission. Due diligence is really easy
> when
> you *don't* want to find the owner. BUT a large majority of people on this
> listserv are here to do their jobs properly and ethically -- even if I
> don't
> agree sometimes in the ideas expressed here on pushing the envelope of
> copyright.
>
> Jessica, we all know Gary is a champion of distributors, filmmakers and
> films -- especially those films so far beneath even *my* guilty pleasure
> trash meter that they make SHHH! THE OCTOPUS look like GONE WITH THE WIND.
>  ;-)
>
> And Gary, if anything I suggested be added to the report, I would be
> happier, of course!
>
> The Dennis, 16mm projector guy (and by coincidence, I just put up a photo
> on
> Facebook of myself with my AV geek friend in high school back in those
> days)
> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefi...@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.comebackafrica.com
> www.yougottomove.com
> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> 
> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
>
> Follow Milestone on Twitter! 
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jessica Rosner
> wrote:
>
>> Gary,
>> Your own link states that one should NOT contact studios because they
>> will just say no The framework is shoddy at best. If you really want
>> to find rights holder you can use LOC for a lot more than stuff past
>> 1978 it just takes more time and possibly money.
>>
>> As I have told you and others a a major person involved in this
>> project stated openly at an ALA session that one should NOT try to
>> contact rights holders. I believe they are far more active in this
>> project than you. This response involved a 16mm print of French film
>> that was not especially rare and whose owners could easily have been
>> unidentified. My guess if you they had been contacted they would have
>> quoted a rather high price , but heck that is what French Rights
>> holders do. A wide array of venues in the US do pay them very high
>> fees to project their films so who decides that if they tell you they
>> want  500 Euros to make a DVD of their 20 minute short that is not
>> reasonable? The point is a roomful of librarians were told NOT to try
>> to contact the rights holder. Your "due diligence " list is
>> specifically aimed at finding out if a film is available not who owns
>> it. If the Carnegie folks want to help find out who owns rare films
>> perhaps they could help pay for a decent copyright researcher? It is
>> really not that hard to find out who owns the vast majority of films,
>> IF you want to, but again the point of this project is not to contact
>> and work with rights holders , it is to find a way to make films that
>> for whatever reason rights holders have chosen not to release
>> available without paying them a penny.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM,  
>> wrote:
>> > Jessica...
>> >
>> > The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in
>> these
>> > protocols) is to find rights holders...
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
>> >> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
>> >> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
>> >> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
>> >> interest.
>> >>
>> >> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,  
>> wrote:
>> >>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and
>> risk
>> >>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've
>> developed
>> is
>> >>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>> >>>
>> >>> gary
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this
>> and
>>  in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
>>  the chief people involved in the 

Re: [Videolib] Due Diligence

[ghandman]

Thanks much, D.

I think starting out in an adversarial frame of mind is never
(underscore!) productive.

We're talking, after all, about libraries--L*I*B*R*A*R*I*E*S--not Bernie
Madoff's office, not British Petroleum.  While I think there is a fair
amount of misinformation (and, in a few cases, misguided assumption) out
there, I really believe that the majority of us are here to try to
preserve the cultural record and do the right thing by rights owners.

gary


> Jessica (and Gary),
>
> I think I should step in a state the obvious. You can have a 100 pages of
> due diligence regulations but it only works when the audiovisual person
> wants to be honest, find the distributor or copyright holder and pay for
> rights and/or work hard to get permission. Due diligence is really easy
> when
> you *don't* want to find the owner. BUT a large majority of people on this
> listserv are here to do their jobs properly and ethically -- even if I
> don't
> agree sometimes in the ideas expressed here on pushing the envelope of
> copyright.
>
> Jessica, we all know Gary is a champion of distributors, filmmakers and
> films -- especially those films so far beneath even *my* guilty pleasure
> trash meter that they make SHHH! THE OCTOPUS look like GONE WITH THE WIND.
>  ;-)
>
> And Gary, if anything I suggested be added to the report, I would be
> happier, of course!
>
> The Dennis, 16mm projector guy (and by coincidence, I just put up a photo
> on
> Facebook of myself with my AV geek friend in high school back in those
> days)
> Milestone Film & Video/Milliarium Zero
> PO Box 128
> Harrington Park, NJ 07640
> Phone: 201-767-3117
> Fax: 201-767-3035
> email: milefi...@gmail.com
> www.milestonefilms.com
> www.comebackafrica.com
> www.yougottomove.com
> www.ontheboweryfilm.com
> www.arayafilm.com
> www.exilesfilm.com
> www.wordisoutmovie.com
> www.killerofsheep.com
> 
> AMIA Austin 2011: www.amianet.org
> Join "Milestone Film" on Facebook!
>
> Follow Milestone on Twitter! 
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jessica Rosner
> wrote:
>
>> Gary,
>> Your own link states that one should NOT contact studios because they
>> will just say no The framework is shoddy at best. If you really want
>> to find rights holder you can use LOC for a lot more than stuff past
>> 1978 it just takes more time and possibly money.
>>
>> As I have told you and others a a major person involved in this
>> project stated openly at an ALA session that one should NOT try to
>> contact rights holders. I believe they are far more active in this
>> project than you. This response involved a 16mm print of French film
>> that was not especially rare and whose owners could easily have been
>> unidentified. My guess if you they had been contacted they would have
>> quoted a rather high price , but heck that is what French Rights
>> holders do. A wide array of venues in the US do pay them very high
>> fees to project their films so who decides that if they tell you they
>> want  500 Euros to make a DVD of their 20 minute short that is not
>> reasonable? The point is a roomful of librarians were told NOT to try
>> to contact the rights holder. Your "due diligence " list is
>> specifically aimed at finding out if a film is available not who owns
>> it. If the Carnegie folks want to help find out who owns rare films
>> perhaps they could help pay for a decent copyright researcher? It is
>> really not that hard to find out who owns the vast majority of films,
>> IF you want to, but again the point of this project is not to contact
>> and work with rights holders , it is to find a way to make films that
>> for whatever reason rights holders have chosen not to release
>> available without paying them a penny.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:44 PM,  
>> wrote:
>> > Jessica...
>> >
>> > The whole idea of copyright and internet research (firmly planted in
>> these
>> > protocols) is to find rights holders...
>> >
>> > g
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Univ. of Michigan had a team of lawyers. How did that work out? You
>> >> literally admit NOT wanting to contact a rights holder and you are
>> >> going to claim "due diligence" I STRONGLY suggest you get a legal
>> >> opinion from someone outside the project without a vested
>> >> interest.
>> >>
>> >> The Hathitrust project was huge and failed at its most basic level.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:21 PM,  
>> wrote:
>> >>> Disagree away.  This kind of research is all about safe harbor and
>> risk
>> >>> mitigation.  Our lawyer seems to feel the methodology we've
>> developed
>> is
>> >>> sufficient to demonstrate good faith and due diligence.
>> >>>
>> >>> I can't speak for institutions that do not do the homework, Jessica.
>> >>>
>> >>> gary
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  Needless to say I have a very fundamental disagreement with this
>> and
>>  in terms of the law it is absurd. Basically it says ( as did one of
>>  the chief people involved in the