[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Again my memory fails, since I think I've seen a paper (about 5 years ago?) with this pattern in it. But all I can lay my hands on at the moment is Sacconi's work of 1979 ' I SEGRETI DI STRADIVARI' in which he describes all the relics contained in the Civic Museum Cremona. Of course, these were handed on through Strad's sons who themselves wrote some of the docs and may even have drawn some patterns. Item 375 is listed as: 'Pattern in paper of neck and fingerboard 320mm long by 72mm and 60mm in width(?),with a description of the strings and their arrangement at the nut'. On this in the hand of the sons of Strad is written Misura della Longezza del manico della Chitara Tiorbata and the well known stringing description [starting Questa deve essere compani due cantini di Chitara . and ending . un cantino da violino] where some violin strings are to be used for the guitar (hence how we can estimate the guages and tensions - see FoMRHI Comm 663, October 1985) but, sadly, only for the fingerboard strings! MH --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 7:28 AM I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
You've probably all seen this picture on Mimmo's site? http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo12.htm - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Again my memory fails, since I think I've seen a paper (about 5 years ago?) with this pattern in it. But all I can lay my hands on at the moment is Sacconi's work of 1979 ' I SEGRETI DI STRADIVARI' in which he describes all the relics contained in the Civic Museum Cremona. Of course, these were handed on through Strad's sons who themselves wrote some of the docs and may even have drawn some patterns. Item 375 is listed as: 'Pattern in paper of neck and fingerboard 320mm long by 72mm and 60mm in width(?),with a description of the strings and their arrangement at the nut'. On this in the hand of the sons of Strad is written Misura della Longezza del manico della Chitara Tiorbata and the well known stringing description [starting Questa deve essere compani due cantini di Chitara . and ending . un cantino da violino] where some violin strings are to be used for the guitar (hence how we can estimate the guages and tensions - see FoMRHI Comm 663, October 1985) but, sadly, only for the fingerboard strings! MH --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 7:28 AM I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Thank you Lex - I don't think this was where I saw it: I vaguely recall the pic I saw was a black and white photo. On Mimmo's site one can see part of the pattern but, maddingly, not all Martyn --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 11:27 AM You've probably all seen this picture on Mimmo's site? [1]http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo12.htm - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Again my memory fails, since I think I've seen a paper (about 5 years ago?) with this pattern in it. But all I can lay my hands on at the moment is Sacconi's work of 1979 ' I SEGRETI DI STRADIVARI' in which he describes all the relics contained in the Civic Museum Cremona. Of course, these were handed on through Strad's sons who themselves wrote some of the docs and may even have drawn some patterns. Item 375 is listed as: 'Pattern in paper of neck and fingerboard 320mm long by 72mm and 60mm in width(?),with a description of the strings and their arrangement at the nut'. On this in the hand of the sons of Strad is written Misura della Longezza del manico della Chitara Tiorbata and the well known stringing description [starting Questa deve essere compani due cantini di Chitara . and ending . un cantino da violino] where some violin strings are to be used for the guitar (hence how we can estimate the guages and tensions - see FoMRHI Comm 663, October 1985) but, sadly, only for the fingerboard strings! MH --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 7:28 AM I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1][8]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10]http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo12.htm 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Maybe in the Cambridge companion? - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Thank you Lex - I don't think this was where I saw it: I vaguely recall the pic I saw was a black and white photo. On Mimmo's site one can see part of the pattern but, maddingly, not all Martyn -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
I wish... - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:07 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Who's going to Cremona for holidays this summer? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Many thanks - fascinating to see at least part of the original. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe You've probably all seen this picture on Mimmo's site? http://www.aquilacorde.com/catalogo12.htm - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Again my memory fails, since I think I've seen a paper (about 5 years ago?) with this pattern in it. But all I can lay my hands on at the moment is Sacconi's work of 1979 ' I SEGRETI DI STRADIVARI' in which he describes all the relics contained in the Civic Museum Cremona. Of course, these were handed on through Strad's sons who themselves wrote some of the docs and may even have drawn some patterns. Item 375 is listed as: 'Pattern in paper of neck and fingerboard 320mm long by 72mm and 60mm in width(?),with a description of the strings and their arrangement at the nut'. On this in the hand of the sons of Strad is written Misura della Longezza del manico della Chitara Tiorbata and the well known stringing description [starting Questa deve essere compani due cantini di Chitara . and ending . un cantino da violino] where some violin strings are to be used for the guitar (hence how we can estimate the guages and tensions - see FoMRHI Comm 663, October 1985) but, sadly, only for the fingerboard strings! MH --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 7:28 AM I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Thanks - that's the information which I had. Maddening. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Again my memory fails, since I think I've seen a paper (about 5 years ago?) with this pattern in it. But all I can lay my hands on at the moment is Sacconi's work of 1979 ' I SEGRETI DI STRADIVARI' in which he describes all the relics contained in the Civic Museum Cremona. Of course, these were handed on through Strad's sons who themselves wrote some of the docs and may even have drawn some patterns. Item 375 is listed as: 'Pattern in paper of neck and fingerboard 320mm long by 72mm and 60mm in width(?),with a description of the strings and their arrangement at the nut'. On this in the hand of the sons of Strad is written Misura della Longezza del manico della Chitara Tiorbata and the well known stringing description [starting Questa deve essere compani due cantini di Chitara . and ending . un cantino da violino] where some violin strings are to be used for the guitar (hence how we can estimate the guages and tensions - see FoMRHI Comm 663, October 1985) but, sadly, only for the fingerboard strings! MH --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 7:28 AM I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let)
My memory IS going! I DO have Berner's book. My excuse is that I was thrown off the scent by it being called a book - it's actually a rather small paperbound booklet... Pagw 45 has the picture, but I'm afraid it's entitled 'Head of theorboed guitar, late eighteenth-century - attributed to Cosineau 1780' (G. Thibault collection - Thibault was one of the authors of the booklet). In short, one of those instruments using overwound strings and many extant examples some pictured on the Harp-Guitar site previously mentioned. The page also has two other depictions of guitars: a four course and a 5 course both taken from Mersenne. I wouldn't take Berners little work as at all reliable/accurate these days: even in 1967, when published, we knew that the chitarrone was not generally strung 'usually with metal', and that Mersenne's depiction of what he called a theorbe was actually an archlute (as indeed M later said in an autograph emendation to his own copy) tho' Berners calls it a theorbo. Similarly, of the 5 course guitar he says the ' lower three courses double in octaves' Martyn --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:58 AM Yes - Donald does say that it is late - presumably 18th century. The illustration Alexander has mentioned is beautiful but obviously a different instrument from either Gallot or Granata. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee PS to my last: the significance of this depiction hinges around how 'late' it is. By the end of the 18thC there was the fashion for classically inspired guitars with two necks (after Kithara) and theorbo like extensions; they used overwound basses (as contemporary guitars). I see these as new inventions rather than development of the 17thC Gth/Gat and thus telling us nothing about the stringing of the earlier instruments. M --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:02 AM Me neither. But I see Donald from time to time so will ask him about it in due course. Martyn --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 10:20 PM I see that Donald Gill says that there is a drawing of the neck and pegbox of a late example of a theorboed guitar in the G. Thibault collection reproduced in a book by A. Berners Preservation and resoration of musical instruments. Has anyone seen this? It's in the BL but I can't get there this week. Martyn? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1][10]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: [14]http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 7.
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
I'm not sure if there are such illustrations that show the actual head and neck of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivari museum. To my knowledge, the most comprehensive information about paper templates and patterns that are relevant to Stradivari guitars are found in the article Antonio Stradivari and baroque guitar making by Stewart Pollens (in The Cambridge companion to the guitar). Stewart Pollens recons that if one applies similar proportions / ratios that are found indicated on some Stradivari guitar templates to the chitarra tiorbata then it would have 67.4 - 73.1 cm for fingerboard strings and 1595 - 1653 for diapasons. It's an article worth reading. Alexander - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let)
Many thanks - that saves me a trip to the British Library. What you say does highlight a big problem ...there is so much inaccurate information in circulation. We should all be careful we don't add to it! Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) My memory IS going! I DO have Berner's book. My excuse is that I was thrown off the scent by it being called a book - it's actually a rather small paperbound booklet... Pagw 45 has the picture, but I'm afraid it's entitled 'Head of theorboed guitar, late eighteenth-century - attributed to Cosineau 1780' (G. Thibault collection - Thibault was one of the authors of the booklet). In short, one of those instruments using overwound strings and many extant examples some pictured on the Harp-Guitar site previously mentioned. The page also has two other depictions of guitars: a four course and a 5 course both taken from Mersenne. I wouldn't take Berners little work as at all reliable/accurate these days: even in 1967, when published, we knew that the chitarrone was not generally strung 'usually with metal', and that Mersenne's depiction of what he called a theorbe was actually an archlute (as indeed M later said in an autograph emendation to his own copy) tho' Berners calls it a theorbo. Similarly, of the 5 course guitar he says the ' lower three courses double in octaves' Martyn --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:58 AM Yes - Donald does say that it is late - presumably 18th century. The illustration Alexander has mentioned is beautiful but obviously a different instrument from either Gallot or Granata. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee PS to my last: the significance of this depiction hinges around how 'late' it is. By the end of the 18thC there was the fashion for classically inspired guitars with two necks (after Kithara) and theorbo like extensions; they used overwound basses (as contemporary guitars). I see these as new inventions rather than development of the 17thC Gth/Gat and thus telling us nothing about the stringing of the earlier instruments. M --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:02 AM Me neither. But I see Donald from time to time so will ask him about it in due course. Martyn --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 10:20 PM I see that Donald Gill says that there is a drawing of the neck and pegbox of a late example of a theorboed guitar in the G. Thibault collection reproduced in a book by A. Berners Preservation and resoration of musical instruments. Has anyone seen this? It's in the BL but I can't get there this week. Martyn? Monica __ I am using the Free version of [1]SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. -- References 1. [1][10]http://www.spamfighter.com/len To get on or off this list see list information at [2][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [12]http://www.spamfighter.com/len 2. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: [14]http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2.
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Yes I read Stewart Pollens' paper but am also pretty sure the Strad patterns give no information about the theorboed extension so the c. 160cm for the open basses is Stewart Pollens' own guess (based, I'd suggest, on the octave low disposition of the basses and similar theorbo/archlute relationships currently being discussed rather than the relatively shorter basses (c 90/100?). Mh. --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 2:15 PM I'm not sure if there are such illustrations that show the actual head and neck of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivari museum. To my knowledge, the most comprehensive information about paper templates and patterns that are relevant to Stradivari guitars are found in the article Antonio Stradivari and baroque guitar making by Stewart Pollens (in The Cambridge companion to the guitar). Stewart Pollens recons that if one applies similar proportions / ratios that are found indicated on some Stradivari guitar templates to the chitarra tiorbata then it would have 67.4 - 73.1 cm for fingerboard strings and 1595 - 1653 for diapasons. It's an article worth reading. Alexander - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let)
Well, surely this is precisely why we're engaged in this exchange of views: to see if their is a reasonably well-informed concencus which may be established. M --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 2:21 PM Many thanks - that saves me a trip to the British Library. What you say does highlight a big problem ...there is so much inaccurate information in circulation. We should all be careful we don't add to it! Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) My memory IS going! I DO have Berner's book. My excuse is that I was thrown off the scent by it being called a book - it's actually a rather small paperbound booklet... Pagw 45 has the picture, but I'm afraid it's entitled 'Head of theorboed guitar, late eighteenth-century - attributed to Cosineau 1780' (G. Thibault collection - Thibault was one of the authors of the booklet). In short, one of those instruments using overwound strings and many extant examples some pictured on the Harp-Guitar site previously mentioned. The page also has two other depictions of guitars: a four course and a 5 course both taken from Mersenne. I wouldn't take Berners little work as at all reliable/accurate these days: even in 1967, when published, we knew that the chitarrone was not generally strung 'usually with metal', and that Mersenne's depiction of what he called a theorbe was actually an archlute (as indeed M later said in an autograph emendation to his own copy) tho' Berners calls it a theorbo. Similarly, of the 5 course guitar he says the ' lower three courses double in octaves' Martyn --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:58 AM Yes - Donald does say that it is late - presumably 18th century. The illustration Alexander has mentioned is beautiful but obviously a different instrument from either Gallot or Granata. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee PS to my last: the significance of this depiction hinges around how 'late' it is. By the end of the 18thC there was the fashion for classically inspired guitars with two necks (after Kithara) and theorbo like extensions; they used overwound basses (as contemporary guitars). I see these as new inventions rather than development of the 17thC Gth/Gat and thus telling us nothing about the stringing of the earlier instruments. M --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Martyn Hodgson [4][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson [5][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Monica Hall [6][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:02 AM Me neither. But I see Donald from time to time so will ask him about it in due course. Martyn --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Monica Hall [7][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [8][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist [9][16]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 10:20 PM I see that Donald Gill says that there is a drawing of the neck and pegbox of a late example of a theorboed guitar in the G. Thibault collection reproduced in a book by A. Berners Preservation and resoration of musical instruments. Has anyone seen this? It's in the BL but I can't get there this week. Martyn? Monica
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Just a short clarification to my previous posting. The paper template for the extended neck measures 921.5 mm x 53 mm. So it is quite long! Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
You should read it again ;) AB - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Yes I read Stewart Pollens' paper but am also pretty sure the Strad patterns give no information about the theorboed extension so the c. 160cm for the open basses is Stewart Pollens' own guess (based, I'd suggest, on the octave low disposition of the basses and similar theorbo/archlute relationships currently being discussed rather than the relatively shorter basses (c 90/100?). Mh. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
Many thanks for that and for sending the pages. I actually have the book and must have read the article when I first bought it - and forgotten all about it.. I see to my sorrow that he has translated into English Foscarini's instructions for tuning three guitars to play in consort - without realizing that they have been misprinted and don't make sense. Foscarini - bless him - copied them from Colonna - whose instructions work out clearly. Also Pollens evidently didn't realize that Calvi's book is a plagiarized book of Corbetta's 1639 book. I must however read the whole article again. Monica - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe I'm not sure if there are such illustrations that show the actual head and neck of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivari museum. To my knowledge, the most comprehensive information about paper templates and patterns that are relevant to Stradivari guitars are found in the article Antonio Stradivari and baroque guitar making by Stewart Pollens (in The Cambridge companion to the guitar). Stewart Pollens recons that if one applies similar proportions / ratios that are found indicated on some Stradivari guitar templates to the chitarra tiorbata then it would have 67.4 - 73.1 cm for fingerboard strings and 1595 - 1653 for diapasons. It's an article worth reading. Alexander - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbe I have one more question - about the drawing of a chitarra atiorbata in the Stradivarius Museum. According to the sources I have consulted this shows the head and neck of the instrument, but not the body. Is that correct? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let)
Hope springs eternal to the human breast. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) Well, surely this is precisely why we're engaged in this exchange of views: to see if their is a reasonably well-informed concencus which may be established. M --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 2:21 PM Many thanks - that saves me a trip to the British Library. What you say does highlight a big problem ...there is so much inaccurate information in circulation. We should all be careful we don't add to it! Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee - Berners book(let) My memory IS going! I DO have Berner's book. My excuse is that I was thrown off the scent by it being called a book - it's actually a rather small paperbound booklet... Pagw 45 has the picture, but I'm afraid it's entitled 'Head of theorboed guitar, late eighteenth-century - attributed to Cosineau 1780' (G. Thibault collection - Thibault was one of the authors of the booklet). In short, one of those instruments using overwound strings and many extant examples some pictured on the Harp-Guitar site previously mentioned. The page also has two other depictions of guitars: a four course and a 5 course both taken from Mersenne. I wouldn't take Berners little work as at all reliable/accurate these days: even in 1967, when published, we knew that the chitarrone was not generally strung 'usually with metal', and that Mersenne's depiction of what he called a theorbe was actually an archlute (as indeed M later said in an autograph emendation to his own copy) tho' Berners calls it a theorbo. Similarly, of the 5 course guitar he says the ' lower three courses double in octaves' Martyn --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:58 AM Yes - Donald does say that it is late - presumably 18th century. The illustration Alexander has mentioned is beautiful but obviously a different instrument from either Gallot or Granata. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [2][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Monica Hall [3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] PS to ...Re: Guitarre theorbee PS to my last: the significance of this depiction hinges around how 'late' it is. By the end of the 18thC there was the fashion for classically inspired guitars with two necks (after Kithara) and theorbo like extensions; they used overwound basses (as contemporary guitars). I see these as new inventions rather than development of the 17thC Gth/Gat and thus telling us nothing about the stringing of the earlier instruments. M --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Martyn Hodgson [4][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson [5][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Monica Hall [6][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, 22 July, 2009, 7:02 AM Me neither. But I see Donald from time to time so will ask him about it in due course. Martyn --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Monica Hall [7][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [8][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist [9][16]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 10:20 PM I see that Donald Gill says that there is a drawing of the neck and pegbox of a late example of a theorboed guitar in the G. Thibault collection reproduced in a book by A. Berners Preservation and resoration of musical instruments.
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
I just read the article again... The one crucial thing which it doesn't seem to mention is the shape of the body. Everyone is assuming that it had a guitar-shaped figure of 8 body. But it may have been lute shaped. There is the Grammatica painting of a theorbo with 5 fingerboard courses and other music for the instrument e.g. Robert Spencers ms. of music for the chitarrone francese by Fontanelli. Another thing - do the gauges of the strings give any indication of the actual pitch? Monica And Stradivarius apparently made lutes and mandolins as well. I compared the measurements with my own guitar - and it seems this chitarra was a rather curiosu instrument. - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe You should read it again ;) AB - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe Yes I read Stewart Pollens' paper but am also pretty sure the Strad patterns give no information about the theorboed extension so the c. 160cm for the open basses is Stewart Pollens' own guess (based, I'd suggest, on the octave low disposition of the basses and similar theorbo/archlute relationships currently being discussed rather than the relatively shorter basses (c 90/100?). Mh. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbe
I know what you mean but, in a way, it doesn't really matter what SHAPE the body is! From acoustical point of view an average baroque guitar and / or lute body is more than sufficient to support the lower (down from the 5th course bourdon) tuning of extended strings. It's the body's volume that matters here, not its shape! As for the length of the extended strings, I'd say even 90 - 100 cm would be enough to get a reasonably good balance of treble and bass registers (I'm telling this from my personal experience by the way, not just speculation). c.160 cm would certainly make the life easier simply because one can utilise thinner strings; and that's what is suggested (the way I see it anyway) on the templates. What would be really unlikely is for the extended strings of this sort of length to be tuned to the higher octaves (I mean in the way you were suggesting in your transcriptions). And I don't actually find any contradictions in placing bass and treble parts so far apart, i.e. as with the low octave tuning. There is plenty of repertoire (down from Piccinini's for a 14-course archlute to a 13-course Weiss) using virtually identical tessitura. Whether the names like 'citara / chitara tiorbata' (in the context of those Stradivari templates) can mean a sort of Grammatica-like instrument or not is totally separate issue altogether. For the time being, it's more a question of speculation, isn't it. They may even be called like that, for example, independently of the body type. And again, in the light of the present discussion it does not matter whether it's a lute- or guitar-shaped body, as far as one can play the same sort of music either on one or another. And the last point. Pollens may not be that informed which particular guitar book was copied or, indeed, plagiarized from another author but I can't really fail him (apart from a few relatively minor issues) where the actual organological analysis of Stradivari guitars, templates and other related information is concerned. He's done a pretty good job there, even just by gathering all the factual information on the Stradivari guitars in one place, surely worth of many purely speculative discussions. Alexander PS: I'm not sure what you mean by comparing the measurements with your own guitar? Which particular measurements do you find curious? It may depend on your guitar in the first place anyway, not the measurements derived from Stradivari's templates ... just an idea. Monica Hall wrote: I just read the article again... The one crucial thing which it doesn't seem to mention is the shape of the body. Everyone is assuming that it had a guitar-shaped figure of 8 body. But it may have been lute shaped. There is the Grammatica painting of a theorbo with 5 fingerboard courses and other music for the instrument e.g. Robert Spencers ms. of music for the chitarrone francese by Fontanelli. Another thing - do the gauges of the strings give any indication of the actual pitch? Monica And Stradivarius apparently made lutes and mandolins as well. I compared the measurements with my own guitar - and it seems this chitarra was a rather curiosu instrument. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
