[VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Welcome! I can't really answer the first part of your question as I am not an instrument maker. In order to answer the second part we need to know what you mean by the Spanish tuning as this is not a recognised definition of any particlar tuning/stringing. And also which part of the Spanish repertoire you are drawn to as it is rather varied and opinion differs as to what is appropriate. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same instrument. On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor right hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the right hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your right hand do all that. I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer much information -- historical and practical. Cheers cud __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Harlan, I have built and re-fretted a bunch of period instruments (romantic and renaissance guitars, and lutes) and it is likely you will need a few gauges of gut for the frets (gamut strings is the easiest place to get them). If the action is low the first three/four frets will need to be stepped down (ex: 1mm .95mm .90mm .85 to end). A higher action off the bridge will allow you to avoid this step down, but will change the playing action and potentially the sound. There is more then one opinion on this and many builders try for a single gauge and end up scaling down to avoid buzzing off lower frets when the instrument is first strung up. This all assumes the soundboard/neck to fingerboard angle is held at 0 degrees when built. Any change in this dramatically effects the action and all bets are off. If you have other questions get in contact. Blair On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:59 AM, Harlan Glotzer wrote: Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. I couldn't agree more! I am a dedicated re-entrant tuner myself. To my delight someone in Italy has just sent me a little manuscript with clear tuning instructions for the re-entrant tuning too. Made my day! In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. I just didn't want our new member to start worrying too much about the method of stringing he wants to use. Monica __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I'd follow that overthinking line of thought... Pick one, and plunge. Than after a while, pick another and plunge. Don't stick on any one unless you are getting special inspiration from it. Or, if you want to strive for historical accuracy, then you do have to let the composer guide you to some extent, as far as that's possible. Like I hinted at before, the archives of this list should amaze you with the amount of discussion this very topic can generate. There's no end to how seriously you can take this subject... You're at the right place if you want pointers for handling a specific composer, era, or song/dance form. As for pulling out the axe and strumming along... My family's been known to play XMas carols with trumpet, French horn, clarinet, and me strumming along. Sometimes my ukulele, and sometimes my baroque guitar. No controversey about the way it's strung. And in my experience, people who ordinarily roll their eyes when you bring out a modern guitar (believe me, I have decades of experience in that) actually kind of perk up when they see a baroque one. __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:11:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1][5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2][6]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject:
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same instrument. On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor right hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the right hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your right hand do all that. I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer much information -- historical and practical. Cheers cud __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Did you see the guitar tablature Toshiaki linked us to? BSB Mus.ms.1522: Alfabeto/mixed guitar tablature (Bavarian provenance): Tabulaturbuch fuer Guitarre [ex-libris:] H. M. Adelaide di Sauoia, Ellettria di Bauaria http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0005/bsb00050861/images/ There's a tuning and alfabeto on folio 9. The book has blank pages after foilio 28. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
