[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
Dear Monica, I'm not suggesting that continuo on the guitar was never done - clearly that'd be daft since there are continuo instructions for the instrument. All this was trying to do was to suggest to guitarists (who, understandably, favour their own instrument first) that other arrangements were rather more general: eg chamber organ which, in this case, is the instrument I'd favour. Especially since it enables the very distinctive sound of the two instruments (guitar and organ) to be well differentiated. I play theorbo with organ quite a lot when performing sacred works and it is one of the most satisfying experiences - but I wld say that. rgds M --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 17:56 Dear Martin Unfortunately I am not familiar with any of these sources! As a general observation however, I think that all these sources suggest that a variety of different accompaniments and arrangements could be used. You can't lay down hard and fast rules because in the 17th century they didn't have any. Interestingly Piccinini apparently suggests that some of his pieces could be played on the lute and organ with basso continuo or chitarrone and organ although no parts for these instruments are included in the printed book. [I have a recording of some of the pieces played in this way]. As far as unambiguous (17th c) references to the guitar playing basso continuo together with other bass instruments is concerned - is there any unamibiguous evidence that it didn't. Why should it not do so? We don't really have any evidence one way or the other. There seem to me to be completely unrealistic expectations as to what any of the sources ought to tell us. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata Dear Monica, You may well be right that the guitar part was originally independent and the string parts added to it (by Granata?): that might explain the harmonic discrepencies both you and I have pointed out. Do you know Pittoni's 1669 printed collection of tiorba solos (with figured bass)? They have something to tell us here I think: the bass is often more 'complete' than the intabulated tiorba part. But, even more intriguing, is that a MS of violin music was discovered in contemporary hand which Orlando Christoferetti identified as an additional violin part grafted on to some of the tiorba solos (not all the Sonatas had the added part). The presents a good model of the practice which might apply in the case of the Granata collection. In Pittoni's collection the basso is specified as being for 'l'Organ'o for the 12 church sonatas and 'Il Clavicembalo' for the 12 chamber sonatas. A facsimile (cheap!) of the printed books and the MS are available from the SPES publishing house. Martyn --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata To: Stuart Walsh [6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 12:41 - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [1][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: [2][9]michael.f...@notesinc.com [3][10]michael.f...@notesinc.com Cc: [4][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:43 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata On 14/04/2011 22:28, [5][12]michael.f...@notesinc.com wrote: Dear List, I have recently finished editing all the known chamber music for Baroque guitar and strings, including all these Capricci by Granata. I noted the light figured bass markings here and in Granata's Sonata (1659) for the same instrumentation (in which the violin is *not* a mere doubling). However, I decided not to include any continuo realizations, because the guitar already provides a nice sketch of the harmonies. (This decision was reached partly in conference with Monica.) That said, please let me point out three Simphonies by Henry Grenerin for two violins, guitar, and basse with figures, where the figures are
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
Thank you Michael, To give you my views on yr questions (in no particular order!): 1. I used chamber organ when last playing these pieces - I recall the organist just used the 8 foot stop. A harpsichord or theorbo (or even another guitar be it 5 course or atiorbatto) do not, in my view, provide or allow sufficient differentiation between the solo guitar and the BC. Organo and plucked tiorba seems to have been a pretty common mid-17th century pairing in Italy. Incidentally, in this context, I think the more likely identification of 'viola concertati' is a small bass violin rather than a bass viol/gamba. 2. BC lines of the time are rarely fully figured and it's part of the joy and challenge of continuo playing being able to realise an unfigured bass. However we should always seek to use any given figuring unless there's very clearly something wrong. Thus I do implore you to insert the few figures there are into your edition. I do not see what you gain by excluding them and can see much you will loose. Incidentally, it really is not only 'scholars' who ask for accuracy in such things: practical performing continuo players like to see them too! 3.I wouldn't say G's harmonies are especially strange for this period and place. I'm also not at all convinced when you suggest he didn't think harmonically but more contrapuntally - being a guitarist brought up on alfabeto would, I'd have thought, automatically given him a strong harmonic sense. Further, just because Rameau's treatise was not published until 1722 does not mean that composers did not compose tonally well before then. Indeed, it has been suggested that the emergence of guitar alfabeto at the beginning of the 17th century was a factor in encouraging a drift towards tonality. By mid century surely much music was very clearly tonal. 4. Your responses to my questions about some mismatches between the guitar and BC part on page 21 are, I'm afraid, incorrect. ME - Bar 10 beat 4: first inversion of A major chord ie with C# 6 in the bass not shown in tablature; YOU: *6 Comes on the third beat, though it is really a 6/4. ME again: Do you really think it's a F#min chord (2nd invert) here rather than a simple A major chord (1st invert) which resolves onto the D of the next bar? ME - Bar 11 beat 4: 43 on a D not shown in the tablature; YOU: *Looks like the figures are in error, since the upper part(s) move 5-4, not 4-3. ME again: not an error as you think - merely incomplete guitar harmony but with no practical problem in performance - especially if a continuo player is realising the BC. It is quite common to find these two lines occuring simultaneously in cadences of the period - the 5-4 is not a harmonic formula but simply the 5th (against a 4-3) with the root of the next chord anticipated just before the beat. Contemporary music is full of this. ME - Bar 15 beat 4: 65 on an A not shown in the tablature (ditto bar 17) YOU *6-5 are the melody notes (violin and guitar); the full 6/5 chord is not represented. ME again - the point I was making is that the root of the chord (the A) is not in the guitar tablature. --- On Sat, 16/4/11, michael.f...@notesinc.com michael.f...@notesinc.com wrote: From: michael.f...@notesinc.com michael.f...@notesinc.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 0:02 Hello Everyone, Thanks for so many great responses to my little post. Let me make three general observations; then address some of your responses; and finally put out a question to all. 1) Baroque music was dominated by an overarching principle of treble-bass polarity. Thus, ensemble music would ordinarily have a bass part, regardless whether full harmonizations were realized above them. So, the presence of the bass in Granata is more important than whether the guitar fills out all the harmonies or whether the figures are complete. 2) Very likely Granata added the violin part (and maybe the bass, too) to the tablature, mostly doubling the guitar's melody. (However, occaisionally, they play in parallel 10ths, etc., and at some cadences the penultimate notes are a step apart, resulting in the Italianate acciaccatura.) There is violin music in his last 4 books. Keep in mind that Granata was writing and publishing in Bologna, home of the famous Bologna School of violin playing/composition. Yet his starting point was probably consistently the guitar. 3) The strangeness, in places, of Granata's harmony and sparseness of basso continuo figures (some of which are not accurate) may be attributed to different things. One may be the lack of a complete musical education (though that might be inexcusable in a center like Bologna). Another
[VIHUELA] LTD archlute?
Dear Stuart, Very good! The thing is one can easily see how people are beguiled by such pictures: at a quick glance they look about right but it's only when anyone who knows a smidgen looks at things like the high bridge position and very shjort (and wide) neck that doubts would arise and, of course, all this before actually seeing the quality of the work. But I don't blame the artisans making such things but rather those who design the instruments for them to make. It surely shouldn't be impossible to get many of these basic features right and establish decent quality controls. That way sales might increase very significantly (even if prices had to increase a bit) and the poor artisans paid more for their efforts. Martyn --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata - chitarra atiorbata To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 22:32 On 15/04/2011 16:09, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Granata could even have thought of the chitarra atiorbata for the continuo. This instrument is on currently on ebay - possibly designed by Z. Taylor. A snip at -L-450? [1][1]http://tinyurl.com/642tybt -- References 1. [2]http://tinyurl.com/642tybt To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://tinyurl.com/642tybt 2. http://tinyurl.com/642tybt 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
It's probably old news but I've just noticed that the B minor Alemanda on p.10 of Granata's Novi Capricci (guitar part alongside parts for 'violin e viola'= figured bass) is also on p.43 but this time in a fancier version and here, unquestionably, a solo. Maybe some other pieces at the beginning of the book (with violin and figured bass) also have fancier versions. The solos starting with the Toccata on p.30 seem a lot more difficult than the guitar pieces/guitar parts with the violin and bass. The late James Tyler made a nice recording of the Toccata and an Alemanda decades ago. I find the solos from p.30 onwards really challenging (apart from a couple of exceptions). But they do look like fully contrived guitar pieces whereas the earlier, simpler ones with guitar and bass don't. Anyway, if Granata has given us a crafted B minor solo on p.43, maybe the simpler version on p.10 really is meant to be played in concert, not a solo? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
Thanks for posting, Chris! I'm tending to prefer the re-entrant tuning, but I like the bourdons--at least in some passages--more than I thought I would. Most importantly, it's fun to listen and notice the differences. Best wishes, Jocelyn On 4/16/2011 11:56 AM, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1][2]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- References 1. [3]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 3. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Granata
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:33 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata It's probably old news but I've just noticed that the B minor Alemanda on p.10 of Granata's Novi Capricci (guitar part alongside parts for 'violin e viola'= figured bass) is also on p.43 but this time in a fancier version and here, unquestionably, a solo. Maybe some other pieces at the beginning of the book (with violin and figured bass) also have fancier versions. The solos starting with the Toccata on p.30 seem a lot more difficult than the guitar pieces/guitar parts with the violin and bass. The late James Tyler made a nice recording of the Toccata and an Alemanda decades ago. I find the solos from p.30 onwards really challenging (apart from a couple of exceptions). But they do look like fully contrived guitar pieces whereas the earlier, simpler ones with guitar and bass don't. Anyway, if Granata has given us a crafted B minor solo on p.43, maybe the simpler version on p.10 really is meant to be played in concert, not a solo? Stuart Possibly. Maybe the guitar versions are originally by Corbetta and the simplified versions were created by Granata to play with the other parts. (Only joking). Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
Hi Stuart... Thanks The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill. Basically, it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is up and D is down, then the gesture is: Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I use the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for nearly every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it any other way. __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1][1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. [2]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
