Dear Monica, I'm not suggesting that continuo on the guitar was never done - clearly that'd be daft since there are continuo instructions for the instrument.
All this was trying to do was to suggest to guitarists (who, understandably, favour their own instrument first) that other arrangements were rather more general: eg chamber organ which, in this case, is the instrument I'd favour. Especially since it enables the very distinctive sound of the two instruments (guitar and organ) to be well differentiated. I play theorbo with organ quite a lot when performing sacred works and it is one of the most satisfying experiences - but I wld say that..... rgds M --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 17:56 Dear Martin Unfortunately I am not familiar with any of these sources! As a general observation however, I think that all these sources suggest that a variety of different accompaniments and arrangements could be used. You can't lay down hard and fast rules because in the 17th century they didn't have any. Interestingly Piccinini apparently suggests that some of his pieces could be played on the lute and organ with basso continuo or chitarrone and organ although no parts for these instruments are included in the printed book. [I have a recording of some of the pieces played in this way]. As far as unambiguous (17th c) references to the guitar playing basso continuo together with other bass instruments is concerned - is there any unamibiguous evidence that it didn't. Why should it not do so? We don't really have any evidence one way or the other. There seem to me to be completely unrealistic expectations as to what any of the sources ought to tell us. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata > > Dear Monica, > > You may well be right that the guitar part was originally independent > and the string parts added to it (by Granata?): that might explain the > harmonic discrepencies both you and I have pointed out. > > Do you know Pittoni's 1669 printed collection of tiorba solos (with > figured bass)? They have something to tell us here I think: the bass is > often more 'complete' than the intabulated tiorba part. But, even more > intriguing, is that a MS of violin music was discovered in contemporary > hand which Orlando Christoferetti identified as an additional violin > part grafted on to some of the tiorba solos (not all the Sonatas had > the added part). The presents a good model of the practice which might > apply in the case of the Granata collection. In Pittoni's collection > the basso is specified as being for 'l'Organ'o for the 12 church > sonatas and 'Il Clavicembalo' for the 12 chamber sonatas. > > A facsimile (cheap!) of the printed books and the MS are available from > the SPES publishing house. > > Martyn > > --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata > To: "Stuart Walsh" <[6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 12:41 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stuart Walsh" <[1][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > To: "[2][9]michael.f...@notesinc.com" <[3][10]michael.f...@notesinc.com> > Cc: <[4][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:43 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Granata > > On 14/04/2011 22:28, [5][12]michael.f...@notesinc.com wrote: > >> Dear List, > >> > >> > >> I have recently finished editing all the known chamber music for > >> Baroque guitar and strings, including all these "Capricci" by > >> Granata. > >> I noted the light figured bass markings here and in Granata's > Sonata > >> (1659) for the same instrumentation (in which the violin is > *not* a > >> mere doubling). However, I decided not to include any continuo > >> realizations, because the guitar already provides a nice sketch > of > >> the > >> harmonies. (This decision was reached partly in conference with > >> Monica.) > >> > >> > >> That said, please let me point out three "Simphonies" by Henry > >> Grenerin > >> for two violins, guitar, and "basse" with figures, where the > figures > >> are specified to be for a theorbo. We should probably consider > the > >> theorbo/chitarrone to be a good continuo instrument for > Granata's > >> music > >> as well. > >> > >> > >> Mike > > > > Mike > > > > I've been looking through more of Granata's "Novi Capricci" (1674). > For a > > start I feel a little unsettled by some of the tablature. Why are g#s > > (you'd think, first string fourth fret) sometimes put on the second > course > > at the ninth fret? There are other awkward moments too where you > might > > expect a guitarist to smooth things out... and just be a it more > > guitaristic.. > > > > And the guitar doesn't always merely double the top string part. > > > > Most strikingly, there are places where the guitar harmony simply > doesn't > > match the bass part. For example, the D minor Giga (p.18). In bars > 6,7 and > > 10 the guitar is playing a C chord in inversion and the bass line > seems to > > indicate F major. And in the B minor Alemanda, there is a point where > the > > guitar plays an alfebeto B minor and the bass line (on a strong > beat, not > > a passing note) has the note G. As far as I can see, you fairly often > > have to make small adjustments to get the parts to fit. And there > would be > > far fewer issues if the guitar was fully re-entrant. > > > > If the guitarist read the music, not the notation, there would be no > > issues! It does look rather like like the guitar part is independent. > > > > > > Stuart > > > > I can't help thinking there is something odd going on. > Well - with the baroque guitar we can be pretty sure that something odd > is > going on. But I am inclined to agree with you that the guitar parts > may > have originally been independent of the string parts. If indeed they > are > the pieces which Corbetta says he pirated, or if they are actually by > Corbetta rather than Granata, it could be that the versions printed in > 1674 > are re-arrangements of rather earlier pieces. > And needless to say I think you are right about them being intended for > the > re-entrant tuning. I think this is the most suitable for Granata's > late > books at least. But I am not sure about the G#s - haven't had time to > go > through and look at them. > Monica > >> > >> [1][6][13]mich...@lgv-pub.com > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> References > >> > >> 1. mailto:[7][14]michael.f...@notesinc.com > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [8][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com > 2. > [17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Michael.Fink@NotesInc. com > 3. > [18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.fink@notesinc. com > 4. [19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e du > 5. > [20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Michael.Fink@NotesInc. com > 6. [21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com > 7. > [22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.fink@notesinc. com > 8. [23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com 23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html