[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
We'll have to simply disagree here. Whjilst havinmg no further historical evidence either way, all I can say is that actual performance practice with a mezzo and bass viol player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic musicologists!) did not meet with anything other than complete acceptance of this nice anticipatory bass line. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 16:28 Dear Martyn Yes I'm pretty sure it's NOT a mistake but is just a not untypical (of the period style) passing dissonance - please let us not try and iron out all these in a Victorian manner - the hemiola is really in the upper vocal line. I knew this would set the cat amongst the pigeons but I still think that the bass could be misprinted. Easy to get the semibreve and minim in the wrong order. How can you be sure that it is a characteristic dissonance and not an error? This is our dilemma. With the bass line adjusted it is a straightforward cadential progression iib7 V4-3 I. Why should the bass part anticipate the cadence? The parts are not aligned correctly anyway. Either way I don't think it indicates that the guitar part was written before the bass part. Monica --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 13:28 Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for one beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody note d'. May be I missed something here - but I did a quick transcription. Are sure the bass line is not misprinted? Because as written you have G in the bass with f-c in the voice part. I think the F in the bass should be repeated perhaps with the harmony changing; the G in the should be a minim co-inciding with the c - b natural in the voice part. The hemiola is in effect present in the bass part and the guitar and bass part match up. Otherwise you get a very odd clash between the voice part and the bass part. I can put it on my ning page if anyone wants to look at it. It's interesting that in the guitar part the 4-3 suspension is in the bass (with bordons). A lot would depend on how you strummed the chords - you would at least repeat them in time to the voice part. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, Yes - I guess we are in general agreement abnout the process of creation of these light songs - good! Re the closing bars of Il Verno: as you'll see from my response to Monica (also you'll note seconding your own position) I will stick to what the printed page reveals especially when it has such a fine effect in performance. Also note the clear position of the G (Fmaj) and .A.A (G43) cadence above the staff notation - of course this might be wrongly aligned (tho interestingly the alfabeto looks pretty well aligned throughout this collection) but the alfabeto alignment coincides with the literal position of the staff notation. In short, with the two notations in agreement and anticipatory notes a feature of instrumental music in the period we should to stick with the literal reading. Please, let's not become old-fashioned (ie mid 20th century) editors of such works and impose our retrospective judgements automatically. When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass) might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Vihuela Dmth vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 16:36 Dear Martyn, thanks for your patience Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that an alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. If I now understand you, yopu do not think this was the case and agree with me that in these light airs the tune would have generally come first to which harmony was later added. We seem to almost agree. I suppose that composition is more of a gradual process, with mutual influence of melody and harmony. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty best, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica, No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord sequences. Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style (See Da Gagliano for examples of these passing dissonances). I've just now responded in detail to yr queries re this so you'll see better where I stand if you read these. But, on this lovely Spring day (again!), regards to you Martyn --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 21:11 Dear Both of You A couple of points Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that an alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic musicologists!) And this is supposed to be a recommendation ... ? ;-) David - sorry, couldn't resist To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass) might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written. I thought you were suggesting voice, guitar and theorbo. Do you think the combination of guitar and bowed bass would be a better option in this repertoire? best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: La Cocq Chaccone
I can mail you a scan privately if you want. Alexis Blumberg -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Durbrow Sent: maandag 25 april 2011 2:59 To: ROMAN TUROVSKY; vl Subject: [VIHUELA] La Cocq Chaccone Man, I thought the guitar was going to catch fire in that La Cocq Chaccone! [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/audioeidos?email=share_youtube_user#p /a/ u/1/25sn20hi8o0 Any idea if the tab for that amazing piece is available online? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/audioeidos?email=share_youtube_user#p/ 2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Ha ha - very Good! To be fair it wasn't really a recommendation of interpretative powers (tho' I hasten to say they are both excellent) but rather of an ability to pick up 'mistakes' in the part writing to which a contemporary auditor might object M. --- On Mon, 25/4/11, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 9:07 player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic musicologists!) And this is supposed to be a recommendation ... ? ;-) David - sorry, couldn't resist To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, Well - this is moving on from how M (and others) approached to job of creating light songs and I really have no firm view either way; tho' we certainly know all sorts of arrangements were employed at the time. On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) - but I find the more substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked harpsichord. However note that Pittoni allows both organ with theorbo in his Church sonatas and harpsichord with theorbo in his Chamber sonatas. And also note that in the ritornelli to M's songs the only accompaniment to the violin is given as the chitarrone...(tho' as Monica points out, not necessarily a procrustean requirement). But in performance and in lieu of another plucker I'm certainly not going to put the guitar down and pick up the theorbo inbetween each song verse. rgds M --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Vihuela Dmth vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 9:24 When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass) might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written. I thought you were suggesting voice, guitar and theorbo. Do you think the combination of guitar and bowed bass would be a better option in this repertoire? best, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? - but I find the more substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked harpsichord. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, See Boyes list for sources naming, guitar, lute, theorbo on title page. But, of course, this is self-selective so excludes sources not naming these instruments ie bowed and/or keyboard. Certainly bowed basses were used in purely instrumental works by Marini and his contemporaries - which may account for lack of figuring in the 1622 ritornelli. As I asked earlier: does this imply no chordal accompaniment in these (just a single line bass)? Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo. And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass if the guitar was present - thus there need be no clash of harmonies as you fear. But even if the theorbo player wished to add chords they would see the vocal (and alfabeto line) line and adjust accordingly ( in practice simply carry over preceding 65 over the g in the bass) to avoid the chordal clash you fear. rgds M --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Vihuela Dmth vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 12:47 On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? - but I find the more substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked harpsichord. best wishes, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord sequences. Sorry - but I think you have misunderstood some of what I am saying. Some of the songs are based on existing harmonic patterns. For example in Dean's dissertation look at the following 17. Falconieri - O vezzosetta (on p.355/discussed on p.173) This is based on the chord sequence of the Ciacona. 19. Falconieri - Cara e la rosa (on p.357/discussed on p.164). This is based on a clearly defined harmonic progession. Clearly the melody was not written first in instances like this.This doesn't however prove that they were written originally for guitar accompanment. Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. I don't think it is retropspective modern judgement to question received wisdom - and as David has pointed out being an academic musicologist is not necessarily a recommendation. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... Marini may have intended the piece to be played in the way you think - I am happy to keep an open mind on that.But have you any idea how complex an operation typesetting a book like that really is? Anyone who thinks that these sources are 100% accurate is being unrealistic. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
On Apr 18, 2011, at 1:07 AM, Monica Hall wrote: In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have printed previously (desia). etc. I don't quite understand this. At another point in the instructions, doesn't he state that stems going down are downstrokes and stems going up are upstrokes? Or am I assuming this? As all of this batterie in the autre chacone are alternating up and down stems, what does he mean 'carrying the hand downwards'? Does he he mean do 4 downstrokes on the lower three courses then two upstokes on the top two courses? Sorry - somehow this has all got muddled up - and my translation may not have been very helpful in the first place. Corbetta describes two different repiccos. I usually play these alternating up and down emphasising the lower courses for the first four beats and higher two courses for the last two beats. You have got it the wrong way round - this maybe because James Tyler has misunderstood what C says in the Italian preface. Corbetta refers to the courses in the opposite order to the usual - the first and second are actually the 5th and 4th. You should play 4 down/up/down/up strokes on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses and 2 - down/up on the 4th/5th. That's assuming that Corbetta himself has not got in a muddle. Hope that helps. Monica Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs. Different repertoire etc. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking you were supposed to accompany yourself. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica, It is tha bane of these sort of online exchanges that things said in passing earlier are overlooked subsequently (Mea culpa too). So I already excluded chord sequences like ground basses/harmonic patterns and the like from what I was discussing - sorry if it wasn't as clear as it ought to have been. I accept totally and agree with what you say about much typesetting, But this source seems reasobly free from errors (have you spotted any - other than this under discussion) and I'm simply uneasy about 'rationalising' harmonies and justifying them on the basis that this is what the early typesetters really meant. I also think Dalza's harmony is rather less unexpected than Marini's and gis contemporaries. rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:40 Dear Martyn No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord sequences. Sorry - but I think you have misunderstood some of what I am saying. Some of the songs are based on existing harmonic patterns. For example in Dean's dissertation look at the following 17. Falconieri - O vezzosetta (on p.355/discussed on p.173) This is based on the chord sequence of the Ciacona. 19. Falconieri - Cara e la rosa (on p.357/discussed on p.164). This is based on a clearly defined harmonic progession. Clearly the melody was not written first in instances like this.This doesn't however prove that they were written originally for guitar accompanment. Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. I don't think it is retropspective modern judgement to question received wisdom - and as David has pointed out being an academic musicologist is not necessarily a recommendation. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... Marini may have intended the piece to be played in the way you think - I am happy to keep an open mind on that.But have you any idea how complex an operation typesetting a book like that really is? Anyone who thinks that these sources are 100% accurate is being unrealistic. As ever Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica, Oh dear In Marini, why should not the bass line instrument (theorbo, bowed bass) just play the bass line of the song since the guitar isn't producing a bass line (and it's occasionaly of interest) rgds M . --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:57 I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs. Different repertoire etc. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking you were supposed to accompany yourself. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution for me at least. On F you play iib7 On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the 4th are prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence. Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious to me and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I don't know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the accomapniment. O happy day - the sun is shining. Rgds Monica alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Oh dear In Marini, why should not the bass line instrument (theorbo, bowed bass) just play the bass line of the song since the guitar isn't producing a bass line (and it's occasionaly of interest). No reason at all - except that it might not fit with the harmony which I have carefully worked out and am rather proud of!. (See my last message). Rgds M . --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:57 I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs. Different repertoire etc. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking you were supposed to accompany yourself. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica, It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. If I really had to figure it I'd simply put the well used figuring sign - a dash - under the first G in the pass to show the previous harmony is held over until the next beat (G4 ) I'm slowly losing the will to live ... regards Martyn --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40 Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution for me at least. On F you play iib7 On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the 4th are prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence. Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious to me and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I don't know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the accomapniment. O happy day - the sun is shining. Rgds Monica alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the voice part is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord - F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C. The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in fact it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of playing an F major chord there? The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can also belong to the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the problem. I'm slowly losing the will to live ... It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example and an instrument to hand. Regards Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40 Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution for me at least. On F you play iib7 On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the 4th are prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence. Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious to me and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I don't know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the accomapniment. O happy day - the sun is shining. Rgds Monica alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
