[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Hello Martin, Yes, you'll see that the extract I quoted does indeed refer to the chitarrone. But by c 1600 (ie by1602/1614) the 'tiorba' was considered synonymous with the 'chitarrone' suggesting that at this time Caccini really did mean the instrument with extended basses (various sources). Before this, as I mentioned earlier (and as Bob Spencer's excellent paper makes clear) chitarrone may well have meant just a restrung bass lute. Though, of course, we know that Caccini himself sang his songs in the 1580/90s (possibly some of them date from the 1570s), well before 1602, so an ordinary restrung 6 or 7 course bass (or great bass) lute may have been employed at that time (incidentally, I don't think we have much if any evidence that 10 course lutes were used in the 1570/80s - the painting to which you refer dates from 1610/20 and similar representations by Molenaer to c. 1630). The context is: what instrument would purchasers of his 1602 and 1614 collections used and, bearing in mind the continued influence and popularity of these works, also what later players and might have used. The reason why all this is on the Vihuela list is that the thread is to do with guitars and in this case the similarity between guitar tunings and theorbo/chitarrone tuning in that there are places where the accompanying bass may be above the voice. But as others have already pointed out the theorbo bass line is still very evident even where this does occur. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 16:57 Dear All, Yes, as far as I remember Caccini only talks about chitarrone, not tiorba. It may well be that the two names become synonymous later on, and when we talk of a theorbo we mean a long-necked instrument with the top two courses at the lower octave. If we believe Piccinini, the long neck first appeared in 1595, and in any case we seem to believe him when he tells us that bass lutes could have just the first string re-entrant as long as they weren't too big. It seems the best guess we can make is that, at least in the early days, Caccini's chitarrone was in fact a short-necked bass lute (with 8-10 courses?) with re-entrant tuning of one or both of the top two courses. This would solve most of the problems of chromatic bass notes, 11-10 progressions, etc. I think also of Victoria (whatshername - Archilei?) singing in the Florentine Intermedii of 1589 to her own accompaniment on a liuto grande, and Saraceni's St.Cecilia painting showing a large 8c(?) lute with 8 frets on the neck and the bottom two courses on a short extension. Best wishes, Martin P.S. We seem to have migrated to lutes and theorboes - should all this be on the vihuela list?! On 19/12/2011 16:05, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stewart I agree with almost everything you write (especially about RD's Musicall Banquet!) - I noticed it after sending and wondered who, if any, would spot it first.. But I can't claim is what a deliberate error. Caccini doesn't say one has to only perform his songs to the theorbo - but rather that it is the best accompanying instrument for the voice (particularly the tenor). And I do agree that the composer would have written his music to be performed by a wide variety of instruments. However the question I was originally asked was whether Caccini would have sang to the theorbo since Striggio had reported him singing to the lute. The answer is yes. The use of compound figures has been discussed before I recall. One must bear in mind that the theorbo isn't always the large instrument requiring both top courses the octave down so higher notes are more practicable than might suppose. I suspect an instrument in nominal A or G with just the first course an octave down was much more common throughout the 17th century than is the practice nowadays. I have such an instrument (fingered string length 76cm with double fingerboard courses) and find it a real joy to play this instrument when accompanying such things as English continuo songs by Lanier, Lawes and the like and contemporary French songs by Lambert and LeCamus. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Stewart McCoy[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy[2]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument To: Vihuela List[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011,
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography (
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are
on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
and an
apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more
characteristically, strumming.
When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of
harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If
the
player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use
alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for
example).
But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation
gives
not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't
even
find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set
of
original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know
something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and
little
more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely,
strumming.
The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano
derecha
que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y
los
dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1][5]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with
how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes
are
on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
and an
apparently limited palette. On the other
[VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...)
That seems reasonable. There is one other point which I would make and that is - if you are commenting on something that another individual has said, especially if you are disgreeing or saying something which is critical it is courteous to reply to them directly as well as to the list as they may otherwise overlook the comments. It is quite difficult to keep these discussions completely neutral. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:58 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) I think that is a harder call. With this list, for example, sometimes I'll hit reply, write my reply and then send it off only to realize that I meant to send it to the whole list and not just the individual. So that is one case. The other is when the priority is to the individual but you would like the list to get it to. In a case where I was responding to you via the list, I would try to remember to send it only to the list, but some people I know (me for instance) might go for a couple of days without looking at the list posts while monitoring individual messages daily. Sometimes you want to make sure the person doesn't miss it. I imagine some people might get a digest and skip over things. I suggest using your RH pinky to delete those extra posts, as we all know lute players simply don't get enough exercise for that neglected digit. :-) Stewart McCoy wrote: When people reply to my messages, they often send me the same email twice: one to me and one to the List to which I subscribe. This is unnecessary duplication, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
You need to be aware that it is only a Masters dissertation and is rather
basic and not always accurate. She refers to Carre as Le Carre
throughout - possibly mixing him up with John Le Carre writer of spy
stories!
She is now doing a PHD on a similar subject which should be more scholarly.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1][5]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:17:42 -0800 (PST), Chris Despopoulos wrote I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness, and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that. The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument for Song, Dance and Theatre http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf cud Gosh - just from the abstract: The five-course baroque guitar was regularly employed in the accompaniment of song and dance, and did so predominantly in the rasgueado style, a strummed practice unique to the instrument. Contemporary critics condemned rasgueado as crude and unrefined, and the guitar incited further scorn for its regular use in accompanying the ill-reputed dances of the lower classes. Happy reading, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Thanks for this Chris,
I'd not noticed it before but see that it's very recent so maybe I've
not checked for a bit. Neither do I know of Natasha Miles who wrote it
as her M. Phil dissertation (University of Birmingham).
I wish she hadn't used the word 'rasguedo' (in the opening abstract) as
I think it assumes some sort of direct historical link between modern
flamenco practice and earlier modes of strumming. However I'll read
the full thing in due course. Let us know if you come accross anything
new and directly relevant to the performance of alfabeto strumming
c.1600.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 20/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 20 December, 2011, 14:17
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to
the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts
in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
[1]http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have
(such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in
this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the
iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people
playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later
style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with
their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a
fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') -
but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar
is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But
we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a
Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court.
Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in
Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he
expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century
guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3][7]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually
strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not
giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four
fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in
this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are
two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book
and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that
the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
It seems that even Murcia wasn't all that keen on the antics of those whom
he refers to as punchers or acorn pickers who try to stimilate the senses
by hitting the guitar.
It is interesting that the pieces in the earlier manuscript Cifras
selectas don't include the opening strummed variations. Elsewhere what he
says suggests that he wouldn't have been happy with the way in which his
music is performed today - with massed guitars and percussion. Even if
there are crossed rhythms it doesn't mean that the pieces have to be jazzed.
Another interesting French source is the Tablature de guittarre fait Par
monsieur Du pille dated 1649.
A lot of the pieces have words only with the
mainly strummed accompaniments in French tab showing the direction of the
strumming.
The French probably didn't need to qualify the Guitar as Spanish because
they didn't call the lute a chitarra. Different linguistics. Amat,
Sanz, Ribayaz and Guerau and Nassarre all refer to the instrument as the
guitarra
espanola.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 9:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography (
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are
on
[VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...)
Dear Monica, Like you, I used to think it was a courtesy to reply to an individual as well as to the list, until one such individual pointed out to me that they subscribed to the list and would get the message anyway. If you are actively involved in a thread, you are unlikely to overlook a reply. One could as well say that it is discourteous to send two messages, because the person receiving those messages is inconvenienced with the extra work of dealing with them: almost certainly deleting one of them, but only after checking that the messages are in fact exactly the same. Before sending a message to the list I tidy up the subject title, replacing upper case letters (=shouting) with lower case, removing unnecessary clutter like [Vihuela] Re: Re: Re:, but not correcting spelling, because it is important to keep the thread intact. I also get rid of this sort of thing: Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html which would otherwise have been sent at the bottom of this message. To avoid duplication I delete the sender's name, and replace it with Vihuela List. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 20 December 2011 14:31 To: Ed Durbrow Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) That seems reasonable. There is one other point which I would make and that is - if you are commenting on something that another individual has said, especially if you are disgreeing or saying something which is critical it is courteous to reply to them directly as well as to the list as they may otherwise overlook the comments. It is quite difficult to keep these discussions completely neutral. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:58 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) I think that is a harder call. With this list, for example, sometimes I'll hit reply, write my reply and then send it off only to realize that I meant to send it to the whole list and not just the individual. So that is one case. The other is when the priority is to the individual but you would like the list to get it to. In a case where I was responding to you via the list, I would try to remember to send it only to the list, but some people I know (me for instance) might go for a couple of days without looking at the list posts while monitoring individual messages daily. Sometimes you want to make sure the person doesn't miss it. I imagine some people might get a digest and skip over things. I suggest using your RH pinky to delete those extra posts, as we all know lute players simply don't get enough exercise for that neglected digit. :-) Stewart McCoy wrote: When people reply to my messages, they often send me the same email twice: one to me and one to the List to which I subscribe. This is unnecessary duplication,
[VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...)
Sorry Stewart - there is no way that everyone is going to be happy whatever we might decide to do (and who is going to police it anyway?) I personally have no problem at all with the fact that I receive the messages twice - or indeed with the fact that I receive my own messages back straight away. I think you have to accept that if you are on the list everyone is going to do exactly as they please and there is nothing you can do about it - except not be on the list. As far as tidying the heading is concerned I understand that [VIHUELA] is inserted automatically. As for capital letters - well we all make typing mistakes and sometimes it is helpful to use them to emphasise something. I think it is pretty clear from all the messages so far that we would each like to impose our own protocol on everyone else. But in a free world that's just not going to happen. Regards Monica (who in this instance has sent the message only to the list and has tidied the heading to see what may come back when she presses send). - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 5:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Dear Monica, Like you, I used to think it was a courtesy to reply to an individual as well as to the list, until one such individual pointed out to me that they subscribed to the list and would get the message anyway. If you are actively involved in a thread, you are unlikely to overlook a reply. One could as well say that it is discourteous to send two messages, because the person receiving those messages is inconvenienced with the extra work of dealing with them: almost certainly deleting one of them, but only after checking that the messages are in fact exactly the same. Before sending a message to the list I tidy up the subject title, replacing upper case letters (=shouting) with lower case, removing unnecessary clutter like [Vihuela] Re: Re: Re:, but not correcting spelling, because it is important to keep the thread intact. I also get rid of this sort of thing: Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html which would otherwise have been sent at the bottom of this message. To avoid duplication I delete the sender's name, and replace it with Vihuela List. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 20 December 2011 14:31 To: Ed Durbrow Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) That seems reasonable. There is one other point which I would make and that is - if you are commenting on something that another individual has said, especially if you are disgreeing or saying something which is critical it is courteous to reply to them directly as well as to the list as they may otherwise overlook the comments. It is quite difficult to keep these discussions completely neutral. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:58 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) I think that is a harder call. With this list, for example, sometimes I'll hit reply, write my reply and then send it off only to realize that I meant to send it to the whole list and not just the individual. So that is one case. The other is when the priority is to the individual but you would like the list to get it to. In a case where I was responding to you via the list, I would try to remember to send it only to the list, but some people I know (me for instance) might go for a couple of days without looking at the list posts while monitoring individual messages daily. Sometimes you want to make sure the person doesn't miss it. I imagine some people might get a digest and skip over things. I suggest using your RH pinky to delete those extra posts, as we all know lute players simply don't get enough exercise for that neglected digit. :-) Stewart McCoy wrote: When people reply to my messages, they often send me the same email twice: one to me and one to the List to which I subscribe. This is unnecessary duplication,
[VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...)
People sometimes complain about links not working. These References are copies of the links that generally do work, in the first few iterations of the message, anyways. Wayne I also get rid of this sort of thing: Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...)
Dear Monica, Many thanks for your single message. Much appreciated. :-) I think it's fair enough to discuss how we send messages to each other, but Heaven forbid that any arbitrary protocol should be imposed. If anything is seriously amiss, Wayne will intervene, but otherwise we are free to do things as we think best. One thing which does worry me about emails is their impersonal nature. We cannot see the sender's friendly, smiling face, so it is easy to take something amiss, especially when many of us have never met face to face. The lists at Dartmouth College are a wonderful resource, and I am grateful to Wayne for organising them. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 20 December 2011 17:35 To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Sorry Stewart - there is no way that everyone is going to be happy whatever we might decide to do (and who is going to police it anyway?) I personally have no problem at all with the fact that I receive the messages twice - or indeed with the fact that I receive my own messages back straight away. I think you have to accept that if you are on the list everyone is going to do exactly as they please and there is nothing you can do about it - except not be on the list. As far as tidying the heading is concerned I understand that [VIHUELA] is inserted automatically. As for capital letters - well we all make typing mistakes and sometimes it is helpful to use them to emphasise something. I think it is pretty clear from all the messages so far that we would each like to impose our own protocol on everyone else. But in a free world that's just not going to happen. Regards Monica (who in this instance has sent the message only to the list and has tidied the heading to see what may come back when she presses send). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...)
Being a robot and lacking a friendly, smiling face, I am very grateful for the impersonal nature of e-mail. (Just kidding. ...kinda.) Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart McCoy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:33 PM To: Vihuela List Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Dear Monica, Many thanks for your single message. Much appreciated. :-) I think it's fair enough to discuss how we send messages to each other, but Heaven forbid that any arbitrary protocol should be imposed. If anything is seriously amiss, Wayne will intervene, but otherwise we are free to do things as we think best. One thing which does worry me about emails is their impersonal nature. We cannot see the sender's friendly, smiling face, so it is easy to take something amiss, especially when many of us have never met face to face. The lists at Dartmouth College are a wonderful resource, and I am grateful to Wayne for organising them. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 20 December 2011 17:35 To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Sorry Stewart - there is no way that everyone is going to be happy whatever we might decide to do (and who is going to police it anyway?) I personally have no problem at all with the fact that I receive the messages twice - or indeed with the fact that I receive my own messages back straight away. I think you have to accept that if you are on the list everyone is going to do exactly as they please and there is nothing you can do about it - except not be on the list. As far as tidying the heading is concerned I understand that [VIHUELA] is inserted automatically. As for capital letters - well we all make typing mistakes and sometimes it is helpful to use them to emphasise something. I think it is pretty clear from all the messages so far that we would each like to impose our own protocol on everyone else. But in a free world that's just not going to happen. Regards Monica (who in this instance has sent the message only to the list and has tidied the heading to see what may come back when she presses send). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...)
Just laughing loudly. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuela List' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Protocol of emails (again...) Being a robot and lacking a friendly, smiling face, I am very grateful for the impersonal nature of e-mail. (Just kidding. ...kinda.) Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stewart McCoy Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:33 PM To: Vihuela List Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Dear Monica, Many thanks for your single message. Much appreciated. :-) I think it's fair enough to discuss how we send messages to each other, but Heaven forbid that any arbitrary protocol should be imposed. If anything is seriously amiss, Wayne will intervene, but otherwise we are free to do things as we think best. One thing which does worry me about emails is their impersonal nature. We cannot see the sender's friendly, smiling face, so it is easy to take something amiss, especially when many of us have never met face to face. The lists at Dartmouth College are a wonderful resource, and I am grateful to Wayne for organising them. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 20 December 2011 17:35 To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...) Sorry Stewart - there is no way that everyone is going to be happy whatever we might decide to do (and who is going to police it anyway?) I personally have no problem at all with the fact that I receive the messages twice - or indeed with the fact that I receive my own messages back straight away. I think you have to accept that if you are on the list everyone is going to do exactly as they please and there is nothing you can do about it - except not be on the list. As far as tidying the heading is concerned I understand that [VIHUELA] is inserted automatically. As for capital letters - well we all make typing mistakes and sometimes it is helpful to use them to emphasise something. I think it is pretty clear from all the messages so far that we would each like to impose our own protocol on everyone else. But in a free world that's just not going to happen. Regards Monica (who in this instance has sent the message only to the list and has tidied the heading to see what may come back when she presses send). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
