[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of music by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately has a bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the campanellas. Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to different conclusions, we
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the early guitar ning site. Stuart --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hallmjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
I was speaking only of French practice, but you may be right - I'll
look at Ning
The French books which I have facsimiles are:
Merchi 1761 - stringing in staff notation seems to show doubled basses
- both low octaves. BUT in discussing pitching to accompany the voice
he says (I think? - better translation required plse) put the small La
at the most favourable pitch - implying an octave on at least the 5th -
but nothing about the high octave being in or out.
Bailleux 1773 - I think the implication here is that the bass of the
4th and 5th octave pair is outside but on reading it again I see he's
not actually quite so specific.
Baillon 1781 - stringing explained in the 'Avertissement'. - octaves
on 4th and 5th but now I look at this again he doesn't (I think) say
whether the high octaves are out or in. My schoolboy French is not up
to being certain of getting what he does say 100% correct - has anyone
a trans with which they are confident?)
Lemoine 1795 - seems to be for single strung 5 course
Sparks says Corrette 1763 shows the high octave on the 4th and 5th on
the outside - but I don't have a copy (is this the diagram perhaps?).
Also other schools certainly seemed to have continued with the thumb
striking the high octave first up to the end of the century (not the
reverse as Sparks says - I think maybe the common confusion of what is
meant by 'the first') Ferandiere's 6 course guitar has octave basses
with the highest outwards. ('The first two bourdons are called sextos,
with the different(ce) that the first is called sextillo, through being
thinner than the other, and it must be an octave higher; but both are
called E.' trans Brian Jeffery).
Mandoras (and gallichons if double) had the high octave on the inside
(like a lute in fact sometimes actually called 'demi-luth')
Martyn
.
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 11:03
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th
century
French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the
style
is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like
. M
There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the
the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the
early guitar ning site.
Stuart
--- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
To: Martyn Hodgson[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41
Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there
was any
early
source which mentioned selective plucking of individual
strings of
an
octave pair - no response so far.
No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't
remember
the
exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz
doesn't
mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution
is to
change the stringing.
Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1
this
morning
I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on
the
5th but
obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer
opportunities
to fit in ornamentation.
Monica
From: Stewart McCoy[1][5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint
To: Vihuela List[2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47
Dear Martyn,
Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the
effect
of
reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be
more in
evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e.
lute)
stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high
octave
to
predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high
octave as a
note
in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely
enhance a
bass
note on a duff gut string.
There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of
a
course
is
used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of
Haray tre
amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of music by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately has a bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the campanellas. Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to different conclusions, we may be duplicating what actually happened in the 17th century, when guitarists will have had their own preferences, depending on what music they were playing. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 06 February 2011 08:55 To: Vihuela List; Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint Dear Stewart, I agree with some of what you say (in particular perhaps Sanz was expressing a desire for the most 'modern' style even if still composing some pieces with bourdons) but I think you overlook an obvious possibility when you write 'Why should the lower string of an octave pair on the baroque guitar be placed on the treble side? This is the other way round from the lute, and seems counter-intuitive. There must be a difference in sound, or guitarists would not have
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two lower courses in the first two books: * Marionas in two separate pieces * El que gustare de falsas ponga cuidado en estos cromaticos * Gallardas * Espanoletas #3 * Pasacalles por la O * Clarines y Trompetas __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:41:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of music by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately has a bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the campanellas. Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to different conclusions, we may
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two lower courses in the first two books: Also, in his Regla quarta del trino Sanz offers this advice: I want to give a famous rule so that you know where a trill sounds good, and you can always do it even though it is not written down. In the first place, the open first, and second courses, trill them if you have a free finger, even though the trill is not written down. Also the fourth and fifth courses on the second fret, and all fourth frets. The reason is, because they are flats, or sharps, and in music this name corresponds to the trill Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Excellent work by both of you. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Peter Kooiman To: [2]Chris Despopoulos Cc: [3]Vihuelalist ; [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Martyn Hodgson Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two lower courses in the first two books: Also, in his Regla quarta del trino Sanz offers this advice: I want to give a famous rule so that you know where a trill sounds good, and you can always do it even though it is not written down. In the first place, the open first, and second courses, trill them if you have a free finger, even though the trill is not written down. Also the fourth and fifth courses on the second fret, and all fourth frets. The reason is, because they are flats, or sharps, and in music this name corresponds to the trill Peter -- References 1. mailto:pe...@crispu.com 2. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
