[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Dear Stuart,
I hope that isn't all I said - if so parts got lost in the ether!
You'd have seen from my eml that in fact I think it's a matter of
horses for courses so that, for example, to return to Les Bouffons:
yes
- I would strum the block chords (including those where one is
requiired to leave out the top course); and no - I wouldn't strum
most
of the chords in the diminuee section. Similarly in your 'sober'
pieces
I might not strum even if it were possible - however to automatically
link strumming with jocund play and plain plucking for sombre/sober
music is selling the guitar short (there are strums in 17thC
tombeaux) - so I might.
The point about inversions is not that they don't sometimes appear
when
one is obliged to pluck (such as a chord using the 1st, 2nd and 4th
courses only), but that in sequences of block chords they
are disguised by strumming (as, of course, common in 17thC tablatures
as well as this 4 course example). This is why I choose Les
Bouffons as
a good example of such block chords rather than a fantasia which may
not have such and would suggest plucking. In short, I don't think
it's
one or the other: both can be employed in the same piece.
The relevance of the cittern isn't to suggest that the guitar was
played with a plectrum but that strumming was a well known
technique in
the 16th century. Indeed, purchasers of Morlaye's fourth book (1552)
would have bought not only four course guitar music (including fine
fantasias by da Rippe and lovely Italian dances such as La Seraphine)
but also music for the cittern printed in the same book!
Incidentally,
if you look at La Seraphine you'll see that the second two note
chord
in bar one (and elsewhere) is played with a upstroke strum of the
index
finger.
Finally, I've just been playing through Bartolotti's second book
and am
again struck not only by the originality and beauty of this music but
by the way he uses many different types of play in the same piece:
strummed chords - full, partial and inner: plucked chords - ditto;
arpeggios, single notes etc in a very fluent manner. I see no
reason to
suppose earlier guitarists were incapable of playing in a similar
manner - allbeit with less virtuosity.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 10:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds
faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged
only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is
notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the
vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate
divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for
it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine
the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and
it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might
be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/
Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2
and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no
need to
add s
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Dear Stuart,
I hope that isn't all I said - if so parts got lost in the ether!
You'd have seen from my eml that in fact I think it's a matter of
horses for courses so that, for example, to return to Les Bouffons:
yes
- I would strum the block chords (including those where one is
requiired to leave out the top course); and no - I wouldn't strum
most
of the chords in the diminuee section. Similarly in your 'sober'
pieces
I might not strum even if it were possible - however to automatically
link strumming with jocund play and plain plucking for sombre/sober
music is selling the guitar short (there are strums in 17thC
tombeaux) - so I might.
The point about inversions is not that they don't sometimes appear
when
one is obliged to pluck (such as a chord using the 1st, 2nd and 4th
courses only), but that in sequences of block chords they
are disguised by strumming (as, of course, common in 17thC tablatures
as well as this 4 course example). This is why I choose Les
Bouffons as
a good example of such block chords rather than a fantasia which may
not have such and would suggest plucking. In short, I don't think
it's
one or the other: both can be employed in the same piece.
The relevance of the cittern isn't to suggest that the guitar was
played with a plectrum but that strumming was a well known
technique in
the 16th century. Indeed, purchasers of Morlaye's fourth book (1552)
would have bought not only four course guitar music (including fine
fantasias by da Rippe and lovely Italian dances such as La Seraphine)
but also music for the cittern printed in the same book!
Incidentally,
if you look at La Seraphine you'll see that the second two note
chord
in bar one (and elsewhere) is played with a upstroke strum of the
index
finger.
Finally, I've just been playing through Bartolotti's second book
and am
again struck not only by the originality and beauty of this music but
by the way he uses many different types of play in the same piece:
strummed chords - full, partial and inner: plucked chords - ditto;
arpeggios, single notes etc in a very fluent manner. I see no
reason to
suppose earlier guitarists were incapable of playing in a similar
manner - allbeit with less virtuosity.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 10:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds
faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged
only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is
notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the
vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate
divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for
it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine
the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and
it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might
be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the
dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/
Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2
and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no
need to
a
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
A postscript to my previous message...
Phalese has not included the voice part separately in his edition probably
because this was in mensural notation and he had no means of printing it and
didn't think it was worth his while financially anyway. If he wasn't going
to include the mensural notation there wouldn't be any point his including
the words either. It is a cheap plagiarized reprint.
The book is a reprint of the earlier books and I don't think one can assume
that he had any more insight into how the music should be played than the
editors of the original books.
It is very important to understand how these things were produced when
evalutaing the contents - somthing which is often overlooked today.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart Walsh"
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and then
the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only at
the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say: how
could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With the
development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th century,
strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated - it's what
the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small (Gerard
Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?). Most of the
Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela repertoire.Not
obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France have fantasies,
settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions, and there is no
textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it. The fourth book of
Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies, psalms and lengthy chanson
settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the setting of La Guerre without
strums (presumably the setting here, rather than the Pavane and Galliarde
de la guerre set by Leroy) and it would certainly be a striking effect in
this one piece - but is there anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where
strumming strongly suggest itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of
prior commitment to the intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent
where it might be. I only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but
again there are sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and
the dances written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you
could play much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne MS
is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the possibility
that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and are solos (as
they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to add strumming -
which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut up a bit!
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant at
all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle play, which presumably we are
not). When played with a plectrum it is not a matter of choice: to play a
chord you have to move the plectrum over the strings (strum) . On a guitar
you can pluck (in different ways) OR strum.
Martyn suggest that strumming disguises the sound of some chord
inversions - but there are many places where you can't strum and just have
to live with the sound of the rootless chord anyway. (There are examples
of this even in the 18th century on the English guitar where pieces in F
major will end on a chord with the bottom note A, even when it would be
possible to play F below it).
But underlying it all seems to be some kind of commitment to the
instrinsic strumminess of the guitar ('intrinsically natural', 'idiomatic'
as Jocelyn puts it). Well strumming is certainly the thing of the 17th
century guitar. But later? Merchi et al? Or the thousands of pieces from
the 19th century?
Flamenco and modern popular guitar uses strums but that doesn't make
strumming ancient and the 16th century four-course guitar repertoire, as
it exists, doesn't seem to exhibit any necessity for strumming except for
a bit of colour, here and there (La Guerre, Les Bouffons). The guitar can
'do' strumming but it isn't obliged to, as it were.
Monica says that I'm adopting a lutecentric (I just made that word up)
view of the four-course guitar. But on the evidence of most of the
repertoire, the little guitar does s
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
I might not strum even if it were possible - however to automatically
link strumming with jocund play and plain plucking for sombre/sober
music is selling the guitar short (there are strums in 17thC
tombeaux) - so I might.
I'll second that! Think of De Visee not to mention Corbetta...there is
nothing trivial about their music.
Finally, I've just been playing through Bartolotti's second book and am
again struck not only by the originality and beauty of this music but
by the way he uses many different types of play in the same piece:
strummed chords - full, partial and inner: plucked chords - ditto;
arpeggios, single notes etc in a very fluent manner. I see no reason to
suppose earlier guitarists were incapable of playing in a similar
manner - allbeit with less virtuosity.
Hear! hear! or is it Here! here! Even in book 1 Bartolotti is a master
of different right-hand techniques. That is his hallmark.
Monica
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 10:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to
add strumming - which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut
up a bit!
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant
at all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle play, which presumably
we are not). When played with a plectrum it is not a matter of choice:
to play a chord you have to move the plectrum over the strings (strum)
. On a guitar you can pluck (in different ways) OR strum.
Martyn suggest that strumming disguises the sound of some chord
inversions - but there are many places where you can't strum and just
have to live with the sound of the rootless chord anyway. (There are
examples of this even in the 18th century on the English guitar where
pieces in F major will end on a chord with the bottom note A, even when
it would be possible to play F below it).
But underlying it all seems to be some kind of commitment to the
instrinsic strumminess of the guitar ('intrinsically natural',
'idiomatic' as Jocelyn puts it). Well strumming is certainly the thing
of the 17th century guitar. But later? Merchi et al? Or the thousands
of pieces from the 19th century?
Flamenco and modern popular guitar uses strums but that doesn't make
strumming ancient and the 16th century four-course guitar repertoire,
as it exists, doesn't seem to exhibit any necessity for strummin
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and then
the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I will try to reply to this message point by point..
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only at
the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say: how
could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With the
development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th century,
strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated - it's what
the guitar is all about at this time.
In the 1960s it became very popular to play the guitar and lots of little
"hold down a chord" tutors appeared for players who suddenly wanted to do
just that! This doesn't indicate that no one had played the guitar
previously or had strummed accompaniments to popular songs. It was a
sudden craze - and indeed different ways of indicating the chords without
staff notation were devised or re-surfaced from earlier times.
There is a rather similar situation at the end of the 16th century
particularly in Italy - where the guitar may have been less popular than
Spain or even France - and suddenly became popular with the development of
solo accompanied song.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small (Gerard
Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
The operative word is "existing". All of these French books
(with the exception of Phalese - which consists largely of pieces taken from
the earlier books) date from the 1550s. I don't think we should assume
that no-one had played the guitar before then or that they stopped doing so
in 1560
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material.
That is true but Mudarra does includes a version of the romanesca which is
based a regular chord sequence which points towards a popular tradition -
these grounds existed long before the 5-course guitar came on the scene.
The vihuela books are intended for serious musicians rather than
dilettantes. And there are only 7 of them..
The Leroy books in France have
fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions, and
there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it. The
fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies, psalms and
lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the setting of La
Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here, rather than the Pavane
and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it would certainly be a
striking effect in this one piece - but is there anywhere else in that
Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest itself? Obviously, if you
have some sort of prior commitment to the intrinsic strumminess of the
guitar you can invent where it might be. I only have some pieces from the
Gorlier books - but again there are sober duos and some religious things
as well as dances and the dances written out for fingerstyle play, not
chords. I think you could play much (most?) of the existing repertoire
without even having to consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming.
(The Braye/Osborne MS is one
small exception, of course)
This may be an exception but it doesn't indicate that it is less typical.
This is more a question of what happens to get published and what happens to
survive - accidents of preservation..
I don't seem to have received this message from Jocelyn but I'm glad she
seems to agree that strumming is sometimes appropriate.
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the possibility
that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and are solos (as
they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to add strumming -
which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut up a bit!
I an afraid Jonathan Le Cocq's article is largely nonsense and I am not sure
whether the Lute Society would have published it if they had realized this.
You should read Veronica K Laforge's response in Lute 1998. The fact that
the voice part is included in the guitar doesn't rule out the possibility
that it might be sung. There is no golden rule that the instrument must
not double the voice, or vice versa (what about the hymns we sing in church)
Some of the vihuela books do include various instructions about this. If
you
are accompanying yourself it might be quite helpful to include the voice
part when playing.
Even if the arrangements of these songs are intended for instrumental
performance only there is no reason to suppose that singers didn't work out
their own accompaniments to them.
References to the citt
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Dear Stuart,
I hope that isn't all I said - if so parts got lost in the ether!
You'd have seen from my eml that in fact I think it's a matter of
horses for courses so that, for example, to return to Les Bouffons: yes
- I would strum the block chords (including those where one is
requiired to leave out the top course); and no - I wouldn't strum most
of the chords in the diminuee section. Similarly in your 'sober' pieces
I might not strum even if it were possible - however to automatically
link strumming with jocund play and plain plucking for sombre/sober
music is selling the guitar short (there are strums in 17thC
tombeaux) - so I might.
The point about inversions is not that they don't sometimes appear when
one is obliged to pluck (such as a chord using the 1st, 2nd and 4th
courses only), but that in sequences of block chords they
are disguised by strumming (as, of course, common in 17thC tablatures
as well as this 4 course example). This is why I choose Les Bouffons as
a good example of such block chords rather than a fantasia which may
not have such and would suggest plucking. In short, I don't think it's
one or the other: both can be employed in the same piece.
The relevance of the cittern isn't to suggest that the guitar was
played with a plectrum but that strumming was a well known technique in
the 16th century. Indeed, purchasers of Morlaye's fourth book (1552)
would have bought not only four course guitar music (including fine
fantasias by da Rippe and lovely Italian dances such as La Seraphine)
but also music for the cittern printed in the same book! Incidentally,
if you look at La Seraphine you'll see that the second two note chord
in bar one (and elsewhere) is played with a upstroke strum of the index
finger.
Finally, I've just been playing through Bartolotti's second book and am
again struck not only by the originality and beauty of this music but
by the way he uses many different types of play in the same piece:
strummed chords - full, partial and inner: plucked chords - ditto;
arpeggios, single notes etc in a very fluent manner. I see no reason to
suppose earlier guitarists were incapable of playing in a similar
manner - allbeit with less virtuosity.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 10:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
"Now maybe other people of the time were strumming from dusk until
dawn - but there is no particular reason to think they were."
on a taverna, fireside, hoi polloi level, i would think they were -
especially when played for dancing ... not an outrageous supposition,
me thinks.
- bill
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=billkilpatrick
--- On Tue, 3/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 3 August, 2010, 11:41
(I prefer to reply after the message, so you read the the message and
then the reply ("bottom posting" as it is called, which sounds faintly
ridiculous). But Monica has asked me to reply at the top.)
I rather incautiously claimed that strumming on the guitar emerged only
at the end of the 16th century. Obviously that's a daft thing to say:
how could anyone know? But evidence for strumming on the guitar? With
the development of alfabeto and the 5-course guitar in the 17th
century, strumming is talked about a very great deal and it is notated
- it's what the guitar is all about at this time.
The existing repertoire for the four-course guitar is quite small
(Gerard Rebours has the actual number on his website! ...about 400?).
Most of the Spanish stuff is really very sober - just like the vihuela
repertoire.Not obviously strum material. The Leroy books in France
have fantasies, settings of chansons, dances with elaborate divisions,
and there is no textual evidence for strumming nor little place for it.
The fourth book of Brayssing is particularly sober with fantasies,
psalms and lengthy chanson settings. Joceyln says she can't imagine the
setting of La Guerre without strums (presumably the setting here,
rather than the Pavane and Galliarde de la guerre set by Leroy) and it
would certainly be a striking effect in this one piece - but is there
anywhere else in that Book (Book 4) where strumming strongly suggest
itself? Obviously, if you have some sort of prior commitment to the
intrinsic strumminess of the guitar you can invent where it might be. I
only have some pieces from the Gorlier books - but again there are
sober duos and some religious things as well as dances and the dances
written out for fingerstyle play, not chords. I think you could play
much (most?) of the existing repertoire without even having to
consider possibility/appropriateness of strumming. (The Braye/Osborne
MS is one small exception, of course)
Jocelyn says that strumming is important in the songs. (books 2 and5?).
Jonathan LeCoq wrote an article (The Lute 1995) looking at the
possibility that these songs were never meant to be actually sung and
are solos (as they appear in Phalese 1570) so there would be no need to
add strumming - which isn't there. Or, if sung, get the singer to shut
up a bit!
References to the cittern of the time don't seem to me to be relevant
at all (unless we are talking about fingerstyle play, which presumably
we are not). When played with a plectrum it is not a matter of choice:
to play a chord you have to move the plectrum over the strings (strum)
. On a guitar you can pluck (in different ways) OR strum.
Martyn suggest that strumming disguises the sound of some chord
inversions - but there are many places where you can't strum and just
have to live with the sound of the rootless chord anyway. (There are
examples of this even in the 18th century on the English guitar where
pieces in F major will end on a chord with the bottom note A, even when
it would be possible to play F below it).
But underlying it all seems to be some kind of commitment to the
instrinsic strumminess of the guitar ('intrinsically natural',
'idiomatic' as Jocelyn puts it). Well strumming is certainly the thing
of the 17th century guitar. But later? Merchi et al? Or the thousands
of pieces from the 19th century?
Flamenco and modern popular guitar uses strums but that doesn't make
strumming ancient and the 16th century four-course guitar repertoire,
as it exists, doesn't seem to exhibit any necessity for strumming
except for a bit of colour, here and there (La Guerre, Les Bouffons).
The guitar can 'do' strumming but it isn't obliged to, as it were.
Monica says that I'm adopting a lutecentric (I just made that word up)
view of the four-course guitar. But on the evidence of most of the
repertoire, the little guitar does seem to being treated as a little
lute or vihuela. Now maybe other people of the time were strumming from
dusk until dawn - but there is no particular reason to think they were.
Stuart
> For starters Foscarini does not claim to be the first person to hav
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
century. What did happen at the end of the century is that the 5th course was added to the guitar - or at least became more common. These things never happen overnight and are seldom the invention of an individual. Notation evolves as musical styles change and always lags behind. (The very first essay I had to write at Uni was on this subject!) Returning to the 4-course books, as I originally pointed out these are printed using the same font of type as the lute books published by Leroy & Co. At least one of them includes music for cittern printed in the same way although - since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must have been strummed. The font of type probably didn't include any means of indicate elaborate right-hand technique. Since the lute (I believe) was also originally played with a plectrum it's hard to believe that chords were not occasionally strummed even if there is no indication of this. Many of the 4-part chords in these books are the standard alfabeto chords minus the 5th course. Les Bouffons is a classic example since it is based on a standard chord sequence - I IV I V I IV I V I and the chords in alfabeto are A B A C A B A C A i.e. Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm They didn't suddenly start strumming them when they added the 5th course. My fingers don't end up miles away from the strings when strumming and I have no difficulty in playing pieces in mixed style - and I'm only an amateur! Leaving out the first course is standard practice - De Visee and others even puts in dots to indicate the ones to be left out. It is also standard practice to strum the inner three courses on the 5-course guitar. When playing the baroque guitar you should not play close to the bridge at all. That is a lute thing This is what Santiago de Murcia says- "The usual method of all beginners is to place the little finger beside the bridge of the guitar, so as to steady the hand, because many are unable to strike the strings with the hand free, but only in the aforesaid manner. This [manner of playing] will not be seen used by any expert who plays this instrument with any skill, especially if the works being played are delicate with strummed chords because these must be played in the middle of the instrument. The hand should only be placed on the bridge when it is necessary to play loudly, as when accompanying another instrument." You shouldn't be playing the guitar as if it were a lute. That will have to do for now - but Please, Please, Stuart when you reply to messages can you put your reply at the top. As far as I am aware this is standard "netiquette" or what you will - practice. Otherwise the messages are a complete muddle!! Monica . - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such as it is. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
For starters Foscarini does not claim to be the first person to have combined tablature with alfabeto or to have written pieces in mixed style. The point made by myself and others is that his is the first surviving printed book to include music of this kind. There is at least one Italian ms. - I:Bc Ms. V.280 - dated 1614 in which guitar music is written out in tablature on 5-lines and although the chords are apparently intended to be strummed because there are stroke marks beneath them some of the chords are almost certainly intended to consist of fewer than 5-courses.There are also some obscure passages in the alfabeto pieces where figures seem to be used to indicate short passages in two parts. There is no evidence that strumming emerged only at the end of the 16th century. What did happen at the end of the century is that the 5th course was added to the guitar - or at least became more common. These things never happen overnight and are seldom the invention of an individual. Notation evolves as musical styles change and always lags behind. (The very first essay I had to write at Uni was on this subject!) Returning to the 4-course books, as I originally pointed out these are printed using the same font of type as the lute books published by Leroy & Co. At least one of them includes music for cittern printed in the same way although - since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must have been strummed. The font of type probably didn't include any means of indicate elaborate right-hand technique. Since the lute (I believe) was also originally played with a plectrum it's hard to believe that chords were not occasionally strummed even if there is no indication of this. Many of the 4-part chords in these books are the standard alfabeto chords minus the 5th course. Les Bouffons is a classic example since it is based on a standard chord sequence - I IV I V I IV I V I and the chords in alfabeto are A B A C A B A C A i.e. Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm Cm Gm Dm Gm They didn't suddenly start strumming them when they added the 5th course. My fingers don't end up miles away from the strings when strumming and I have no difficulty in playing pieces in mixed style - and I'm only an amateur! Leaving out the first course is standard practice - De Visee and others even puts in dots to indicate the ones to be left out. It is also standard practice to strum the inner three courses on the 5-course guitar. When playing the baroque guitar you should not play close to the bridge at all. That is a lute thing This is what Santiago de Murcia says- "The usual method of all beginners is to place the little finger beside the bridge of the guitar, so as to steady the hand, because many are unable to strike the strings with the hand free, but only in the aforesaid manner. This [manner of playing] will not be seen used by any expert who plays this instrument with any skill, especially if the works being played are delicate with strummed chords because these must be played in the middle of the instrument. The hand should only be placed on the bridge when it is necessary to play loudly, as when accompanying another instrument." You shouldn't be playing the guitar as if it were a lute. That will have to do for now - but Please, Please, Stuart when you reply to messages can you put your reply at the top. As far as I am aware this is standard "netiquette" or what you will - practice. Otherwise the messages are a complete muddle!! Monica . - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming wo
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Dear Stuart,
You're quite right - I do think strumming is appropriate in many of
these pieces, such as Les Bouffons. The block chords across all four
courses are, I suggest, a very clear indicator.
Part of the problem with just finger plucking is that the many
inversions commonly found in these dances are effectively disguised by
strumming (as, of course, in the later 5 course guitar repertoire) but
are laid bare with plucking. Also interestingly, look at bar 5: in the
first section where I suggest the block chords are strummed the lowest
note is the 5th of the chord (2nd inversion) but in the following
divisions section where strumming is not generally practical the lowest
note is the open third course - that is in root position.
The perceived difficulty of plucking the single note in bar one (and
elsewhere) is only a problem if the hand moves back to a bridge
plucking posture and position; if it's taken as though with a light
upstroke (ie a strum movement) of the index (as commonly found in later
5 course tablatures) the difficulty evaporates.
When you say strumming on the guitar only 'emerged at the end of the
16th century' - what's your evidence for this? Of course, the tutors
of the late 16th/and 17th C with alfabeto naturally indicate strumming
but that by no means excludes a similar practice being adopted earlier
before alfabeto was invented. The numerous cittern works also published
by Phalese et al at this time also often require strumming (with
plectrum). We know that small guitars were used to accompany dances
and singing in Intermedii - a good example is Cavalieri's setting in
the Florentine Intermedi of 1589 of 'O che nuove miracolo' (which later
transmogrified into the hit tune 'Aria del gran duca'). where the three
soprano solists sing to a spanish guitar and a small neopolitan guitar.
Strumming of both instruments seems the obvious and practical manner of
performance in such a context.
Does not Foscarini report his own local knowledge when he claims to be
the inventor of mixed notation and, in any event, isn't he really
making the case that he was the first to combine alfabeto with
tablature - a rather different claim.
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 2/8/10, Stuart Walsh wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
To:
Cc: "'Vihuelalist'"
Date: Monday, 2 August, 2010, 11:11
Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalese edition of 1570 and in
Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and
strumming symbols that are not in the original.
[1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg
Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn
think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would -
have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this
repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as
first option but something that might just be added in places.
Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute
music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the
thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the
pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So
strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would
seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the
end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!)
but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve
the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have
invented in the 17th century.
I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers
are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the
issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy
strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and
then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les
Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are
strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a
bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of
another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple
downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such
as it is.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar - strumming
Here's 'Les Buffons' as in the Phalèse edition of 1570 and in Geisbert's 1969 trancription. Giesbert has added fingering and strumming symbols that are not in the original. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons.jpg Now some people, like (I hope I'm right in this) Monica and Martyn think that a piece like this (and many others) might - or even would - have been strummed. Whenever I have had a run through of this repertoire - and pieces like this - I've never thought of strumming as first option but something that might just be added in places. Martin Shepherd pointed out some examples of strumming in the lute music of the time but it would seem to be fair to say that out of the thousands of lute pieces from this time when the lute was the pre-eminent instrument, strumming occupies only a minute fragment. So strumming was not a typical or common practice on the lute, it would seem.Strumming block chords on guitars (on all strings) emerged at the end of the 16th century (of course, correct me on this if I'm wrong!) but playing this version of Les Bouffons with strumming would involve the mixed strumming and plucking style that Foscarini claimed to have invented in the 17th century. I play Les Bouffons (and pieces like this) fingerstyle and the fingers are in position to play the punteado,fingerstyle bits. One of the issues of the mixed style of the 17th century is that if you do a fancy strum then your fingers end up half a mile away from the strings and then you have to get them back to do some fingerstyle play. Also in Les Bouffons, in the second bar of the second section, if you are strumming, you have to do a strum which omits the top course. That's a bit tricky to do and the arranger didn't include the addition of another note on the top course (fret one) which would make a simple downward strum easy to do and hardly interrupts the melodic line such as it is. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes - that sums it up nicely. And as far as the 6/4 chords are concerned - strumming them does effectively eliminate the odd effect of the 4th between the two lowest parts. There are other chords which are also 6/4s as with the 5-course instrument. In fact they are the same old chords without the 5th course. This G major chord is actually the original form of Chord A in alfabeto with three open courses. This is how it is in the Cancionero Bezon and Montesardo - 2nd, 3rd and 4th courses open, 1st course stopped at the 3rd fret and the additional 5th course stopped at the 2nd fret. Later books have the 2nd course stopped at the 3rd fret. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" To: "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar This is very good and lively discussion! I have just a few things to add. First, we do have a strong indication that the 4-course guitar *was* strummed, at least in Spain by 1611. Sebastian de Covarrubias Horozco's "Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española" has an article on the guitar, which he defines as have 5 or 4 courses. His article on the "Vigüela" laments its decline in favor of the guitar with the famous quote: ". . . ahora la guitarra no es más que un cencerro, tan fácil de tañer, especialmente en lo rasgado, que no hay mozo de caballos que no sea músico de guitarra." (. . . now the guitar is no more than a cowbell, so easy to play, especially when strummed, that there is hardly a stable boy who is not a guitar player.) I cannot find any strumming indications in Phalèse 1570. However, repeated 4-note chords in some chanson intabulations strongly suggest that technique. The "Braye Ms.", now called the "Osborn Ms." or "Osborn Collection Commonplace-book" (c. 1560) is discussed and transcribed in John M. Ward, "Sprightly & Cheerful Musick: Notes on the cittern, gittern, and guitar in 16th- and 17th-century England", Lute Society Journal XXI, 1979-81. The "article" takes up the entire book, and I believe it is still available from The Lute Society. A fascinating read! In the Osborn Ms. there are several pieces comprised mostly or entirely of repeated chords. (See, for example, "20. The [?Fantaze], Ward, p. 128.) Ward believes that these passages were to be strummed, and it seems to me entirely impossible to interpret them othewise. Finally a personal suggestion: If the 4-course guitar is tuned to E, many pieces are in G with an inherent problem with the final chord: The open low D string on the 4th course produces a 6-4 chord when plucked, with the 5th sounding prominently below the key note G (which "should" be in the bass). Possibly, people didn't care, or there was a popular undocumented solution. I believe that a good solution for these and other chords with the same basic problem is simply to strum the chord (perhaps with the thumb). Effectively, the voicing of the chord is thereby obscured (and with it the transgression of the harmony/counterpoint rule). Michael michael.f...@notesinc.com There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message -
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
This is very good and lively discussion! I have just a few things to add. First, we do have a strong indication that the 4-course guitar *was* strummed, at least in Spain by 1611. Sebastian de Covarrubias Horozco's "Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española" has an article on the guitar, which he defines as have 5 or 4 courses. His article on the "Vigüela" laments its decline in favor of the guitar with the famous quote: ". . . ahora la guitarra no es más que un cencerro, tan fácil de tañer, especialmente en lo rasgado, que no hay mozo de caballos que no sea músico de guitarra." (. . . now the guitar is no more than a cowbell, so easy to play, especially when strummed, that there is hardly a stable boy who is not a guitar player.) I cannot find any strumming indications in Phalèse 1570. However, repeated 4-note chords in some chanson intabulations strongly suggest that technique. The "Braye Ms.", now called the "Osborn Ms." or "Osborn Collection Commonplace-book" (c. 1560) is discussed and transcribed in John M. Ward, "Sprightly & Cheerful Musick: Notes on the cittern, gittern, and guitar in 16th- and 17th-century England", Lute Society Journal XXI, 1979-81. The "article" takes up the entire book, and I believe it is still available from The Lute Society. A fascinating read! In the Osborn Ms. there are several pieces comprised mostly or entirely of repeated chords. (See, for example, "20. The [?Fantaze], Ward, p. 128.) Ward believes that these passages were to be strummed, and it seems to me entirely impossible to interpret them othewise. Finally a personal suggestion: If the 4-course guitar is tuned to E, many pieces are in G with an inherent problem with the final chord: The open low D string on the 4th course produces a 6-4 chord when plucked, with the 5th sounding prominently below the key note G (which "should" be in the bass). Possibly, people didn't care, or there was a popular undocumented solution. I believe that a good solution for these and other chords with the same basic problem is simply to strum the chord (perhaps with the thumb). Effectively, the voicing of the chord is thereby obscured (and with it the transgression of the harmony/counterpoint rule). Michael michael.f...@notesinc.com There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > Monica Hall wrote: >> You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't >> indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why >> they shouldn't be. >> >> The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books >> printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. >> Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate >> right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are >> lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be >> strummed. > > Monica, are you
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
That's helpful. The tablature just doesn't tell everything. We have to use our imagination sometimes. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martin Shepherd" To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:21 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Hi Monica and All, Newsidler is pretty definite - "mit durch streichen" and (I think) even specifies using the thumb. Similar six-note chords appear in Dalza as well, in contexts where there is no doubt that strumming is intended. Nothing to do with strumming, but there was some mention earlier on this thread of fine recordings of music for 4c guitar, so I'd just like to remind everyone that you can hear splendid performances of all Mudarra's music for 4c guitar on the CD by Jacob Heringman and Catherine King (Gaudeamus - but I guess the CD may be out of print - is it on Magnatune? Worth a look). Martin Monica Hall wrote: There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn&#
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Hi Monica and All, Newsidler is pretty definite - "mit durch streichen" and (I think) even specifies using the thumb. Similar six-note chords appear in Dalza as well, in contexts where there is no doubt that strumming is intended. Nothing to do with strumming, but there was some mention earlier on this thread of fine recordings of music for 4c guitar, so I'd just like to remind everyone that you can hear splendid performances of all Mudarra's music for 4c guitar on the CD by Jacob Heringman and Catherine King (Gaudeamus - but I guess the CD may be out of print - is it on Magnatune? Worth a look). Martin Monica Hall wrote: There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
There is a facsimile of the Phalese book published by Tree Editions - modestly priced at 36 euros. There is no indication in the tablature that the chords should be strummed. It does however seem to me to be self-evident that at least some passages must be strummed. I don't see how else you could conveniently play them. The same is true of the Braye ms.I haven't seen the Giesbert - but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to indicate that the chords should be strummed if the edition is for classical guitarists. The other thing is that many of the chords are actually the same as standard alfabeto chords without the fifth course. The fifth course was added later. There is clearly a continuous tradition. Some of the pieces in one of the Newsidler books do have an instruction "mit streichen" in pieces which have 6-part chords. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that even the noble lute was sometimes strummed. But because the 4-course guitar was perhaps more of a popular instrument, more likely to be played by amateurs, strumming may have been considered more appropriate. There is the famous quotation which I can't actually quote verbatim but says to effect "All the world's a gitterning and the lute is quite laid off etc..". I don't think that treating the text as if it were holy writ is helpful. Just because there are no specific indications in the sources as to how the chords should be played doesn't mean that they must be played in what I would call "lute style". This is an assumption. Quite possible full chords were strummed on the lute too. There is no indication either way. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renai
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Monica Hall wrote: You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. Monica, are you saying that the 1570 publication of Phalèse and Bellère has no indications of strumming either? Like Martyn, I've never seen these tablatures and, like Martyn, I have the 1970s Geisbert two volumes of transcriptions for modern guitar. Geisbert gives indications of strumming in some of the pieces, so presumably he made it all up? It might have been difficult to indicate strums in the way that music was set at that time but even the four-course guitar music in the Braye MS - which has loads of block chords - doesn't have any indications of strumming. Of course, absence of strumming indications doesn't mean that players didn't use strums. Strumming might just have been expected as a natural thing to do, given the nature of the instrument. (But then - apart from some precious French stuff from the following century anyway - why was the 16th century lute not typically strummed too?). It might have been the case that strumming was an option but only by those with good taste, or the complete opposite, as something only fit for peasants! Stuart One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces.
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Dear Stuart,
Is it really the case that no printed books of music for 4 course
guitar show strumming?
I was under the impression that the Phalese (Selectissima ... in
Guiterna ludenda carmina... ) of 1570 by its use of a mark under a
chord indicated a downwards (ie to the floor) strum and a dot under a
chord an upwards stroke (strum). However this is one of the printed 4
course guitar books of which I don't have a facsimile but only
Geisbert's edition of 1969 (quite good for the time I think). A good
example might be no 39 'Les Bouffons' which in the first bar Gsbt
shows as a G chord with dotted crotchet downstroke, plucked single
upper g', crotchet downstroke, crotchet upstroke.
If any kind person could let me have a facsimile scan of this book I'd
be very grateful.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sat, 31/7/10, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
To: "Stuart Walsh"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Saturday, 31 July, 2010, 9:06
You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't
indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason
why
they shouldn't be.
The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books
printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same
way. Either
they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate
right
hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots
of
places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed.
One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces
for
the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and
therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide
whether
the strokes were up and down etc.
I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged
to
Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from
Moulinie's
book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be
strummed
but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values
are on
the stave with tails up and down.
Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think
some of
the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course.
All are clearly intended to be strummed.
Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly
don't
give us the whole picture!
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart Walsh" <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[2]brai...@osu.edu>
Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" <[3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Vihuelalist'"
<[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
> Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>> Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief
dance
>> melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what
improvisation on
>> guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era.
It's
>> when
>> there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on
new-agey-sounding
>> suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting.
>>
>> Best,
>> Eugene
>>
>>
>>
>
> I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays
very
> beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the
original
> but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some
strange
> inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as
a
> musician, hears the music.
>
> (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all
over
> the place)
>
> What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a
> number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this
> little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the
little
> vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the
vamp
> figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a
very
> attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it
into
> something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of
> character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out
'plus
> diminuee') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just
play
> it twice.
>
> opening (Ex1)
>
> [5]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/e
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
You mention the fact that the printed sources of 4-course music don't indicate that the chords should be strummed. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be. The guitar books are printed using the same font of type as lute books printed by Leroy and Ballard & co and are printed in the same way. Either they didn't have anything suitable in the font of type to indicate right hand technique or they didn't think it was necessary. There are lots of places where repeated chords seem obviously intended to be strummed. One of the books - can't remember off hand which - also includes pieces for the 4-course cittern which would have been played with a plectrum and therefore strummed. It would have been up to the player to decide whether the strokes were up and down etc. I have just got a copy of this manuscript copied in 1649 which belonged to Monsier DuPille. This includes one of the guitar songs from Moulinie's book. Moulinie hasn't indicated that the accompaniment should be strummed but in the manuscript it is clear that it should be - the note values are on the stave with tails up and down. Haven't had time to go through the manuscript in detail but I think some of the pieces may from the 4-course repertoire but up-graded for 5-course. All are clearly intended to be strummed. Printed sources are constrained by what is practical. They certainly don't give us the whole picture! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a fl
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Chris Despopoulos wrote: Interesting... I didn't find this to be so much out of character. If anything, I would want to hear it played a little bolder perhaps. A branle is a dance, and the same tune was probably repeated many times. It had to be embellished. What if the crowd needed a moment to get back to the starting position before commencing again? THrow in a little vamp. Yes, but...probably the little four-course guitar was not providing dance music for a crowd. And the four-course guitar dance arrangements were probably not intended to provide music for any dancers (though it's possible). The LeRoy guitar books have a selection of dances, chanson settings and fantasias, they're not dance books per se, like the Gervaise publications (though some tunes in Gervaise are in LeRoy). And Massimo Lonardi isn't a live recording from a dance event, trying to adjust to errant dancers. Stuart Well, all this is speculation. Really, period musicians should study dances of the time just to get a better sense of the situation. I'm hoping for a chance to do that some day. But this year I think my big lesson is that much of the music was functional. And so the chore in front of me now is to learn more about those functions. cud *From:* Stuart Walsh *To:* Eugene C. Braig IV *Cc:* List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 2:03:31 PM *Subject:* [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance > melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on > guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when > there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding > suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. > > Best, > Eugene > > > I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu>] On >> Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM >> To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar >> >>Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de >>Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... >>Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of >>ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, >>any player above the beginner level would have taken these as >>suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I >>took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that >>is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have >>made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that >>most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a >>similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) >>I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar >>performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does >>this wonderfully, I think. >>In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and >>ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to >>include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, >>and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
It seems nothing but ethnic to me. RT - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __________ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene I hope Massimo won't mind me including an example. Overall, he plays very beautifully and he adds strums, which, of course, are not in the original but which sound really appropriate and musical. And he uses some strange inegale at times too, which maybe what some people did or how he, as a musician, hears the music. (And in general, no doubt, all sorts of improvisation was used all over the place) What bothers me are these rather fay little vamps which he uses in a number of the dances. Here is an example: many people will know this little Branle de Champaigne. Ex1 is the opening - four bars of the little vamp figure and then the actual music. At the end of the Branle the vamp figure returns as a sort of interlude into a repeat (Ex2). It's a very attractive little dance and it's very short and the vamp makes it into something bigger. But it seems, to me anyway, really quite out of character. Surely an improvised second run through (or a written out 'plus diminueé') would surely be better. Or play a set of dances. Or just play it twice. opening (Ex1) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex1.mp3 middle Ex2) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/ex2.mp3 Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now s
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Believe it or not, I agree. A musician should perform what s/he would like. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. If you do, there is no shame in your taste differing from mine. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of G. Crona > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 1:06 PM > To: Vihuelalist > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Well... > > I for one am very much for autenticity, but by Jove, there should also be > room for experimentation. Lets not get fundamentalist here. There is too > much fundamentalism in this world already unfortunately! Live and let > live, > to each its own and all that. I quite like the New Agey stuff, I must say. > And the authenticity is not going to disappear because of experimentation > or > do you really think so? There should be room for all IMO... > > Best > > G. > > - Original Message - > From: "Monica Hall" > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:50 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > > >I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque > > guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything > > ethnic/new agey. > > > > I am inclined to think this is a mistake! > > > > Monica > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Well... I for one am very much for autenticity, but by Jove, there should also be room for experimentation. Lets not get fundamentalist here. There is too much fundamentalism in this world already unfortunately! Live and let live, to each its own and all that. I quite like the New Agey stuff, I must say. And the authenticity is not going to disappear because of experimentation or do you really think so? There should be room for all IMO... Best G. - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 6:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Dear List, Thank you for the kind words and encouragement for my CD and videos! Yes, I agree improvised embellishment has to do with the genre and function of the music, and only makes sense in historically well-informed contexts. For instance, I wouldn't feel comfortable embellishing most fantasies, other than an occasional cadential emphasis or strummed flourish. But in regard to those scalar diminutions in many of Le Roy's dances that we discussed on this list some months back: I hear those as suggested embellishments; the player has many options in those passages. As for accompaniment: I arranged much of my accompaniment to the songs on my CD. I did most of them both as written and also arranged, in different verses. In fact, I was still arranging when we recorded, in short 10-minute breaks for instance with my pencil and tab, and sometimes I even tried new things as we recorded. (Very exciting when your singer only has a few hours to record with you before her flight home.) The written 4-course guitar parts in the songbooks published in mid-16th century France have been the subject of some discussion: were they meant to be played as written with the singer even though the guitar parts have the entire melody? Or was the guitar part only for guitar solo and if the singer takes the melody, should the guitarist let the singer have it and do something else? I discuss this in my CD notes. Best, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax [1]nels...@ecu.edu ___ From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:50:48 -0400 To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[3]brai...@osu.edu> Cc: Vihuelalist <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[5]brai...@osu.edu> To: "'List LUTELIST'" <[6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "'Vihuelalist'" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance > melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on > guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's > when > there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding > suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. > > Best, > Eugene > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[9]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >> Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM >> To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar >> >>Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de >>Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... >>Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of >>ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, >>any player above the beginner level would have taken these as >>suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how >> I >>took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that >>is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have >>made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that >>most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a >>similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) >>I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar >>performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does >>this wonderfully, I think. >>In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion >> and >>ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to >>include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, >>and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a >>word, improvisation.
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
I think you have hit the nail on the head. The problem with the baroque guitar is that everyone seems to treat it as fair game for anything ethnic/new agey. I am inclined to think this is a mistake! Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, > folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's > trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of > actually taking the trouble to edit them out. > > > Stuart &g
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes, I agree with all, especially regarding elaborating on brief dance melodies or chord progressions. It's hard to guess what improvisation on guitar might have sounded like in the renaissance or baroque era. It's when there is an abrupt change of style leaning heavily on new-agey-sounding suspensions, etc. that such improvisations can be distracting. Best, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 12:23 PM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; List LUTELIST; Vihuelalist > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > >Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de >Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... >Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of >ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, >any player above the beginner level would have taken these as >suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I >took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that >is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have >made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that >most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a >similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) >I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar >performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does >this wonderfully, I think. >In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and >ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to >include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, >and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a >word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving >this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered >a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that >Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, >but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to >the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a >series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to >be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" >improvised??? >And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured >improvisation. >I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where >improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other >words, um... er... Well, you know... >cud > __________________ > >From: Eugene C. Braig IV >To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist > >Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM >Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar >Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater >proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, >etc.) >than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string >guitars. I >wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a >bit >distracting. >Eugene >> -Original Message- >> From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >> Behalf Of Stuart Walsh >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM >> To: Eugene C. Braig IV >> Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar >> >> Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: >> > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to >have a >> > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. >> > >> > Also look into: >> > >> > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. >Stradivarius. >> > >> >> Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he >adds >> a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who >> didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, >> folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's >> trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of >> actually taking the trouble to edit them out. >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to "sound" improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: List LUTELIST ; Vihuelalist Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, > folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's > trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of > actually taking the trouble to edit them out. > > > Stuart > > > > > > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques > > Pierre Verany. > > > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras > Para > > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree. > > > > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter > two > > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty > guitar > > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > > effort: [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley > > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only > a > > little. > > > > Best, > > Eugene > > > > > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Yes - this is a bit of a vexed question. I suspect that in the 16th/17th century players did create their own versions and elaborations - especially when many of the pieces are very short and last less than a minute. The problem today perhaps is that not all players are inspired enough to do this well. Monica - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: "'List LUTELIST'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > Also look into: > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. > Disques > Pierre Verany. > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. > > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The > latter two > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a > little. > > Best, > Eugene > > > >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM >> To: Bruno Correia >> Cc: List LUTELIST >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar >> >> Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around >> 2008... >> >> >> Enviado desde mi iPod >> >> El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia >> escribió: >> >> >>> I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his >>> own >>> instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially >>> after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. >>> >>> >>> >>> [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Stuart Walsh > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV > Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > > copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > > Also look into: > > > > Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > > Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds > a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who > didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, > folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's > trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of > actually taking the trouble to edit them out. > > > Stuart > > > > > > Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques > > Pierre Verany. > > > > Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras > Para > > Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. > > > > The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter > two > > features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty > guitar > > solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > > effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley > > indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only > a > > little. > > > > Best, > > Eugene > > > > > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Laura Maschi > >> Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM > >> To: Bruno Correia > >> Cc: List LUTELIST > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar > >> > >> Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... > >> > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPod > >> > >> El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia > >> escribió: > >> > >> > >>> I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his > >>> own > >>> instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially > >>> after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> References > >>> > >>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > >>> > >>> > >>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia escribió: I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Well, that is reasonable. Thanks for this word! Last I looked, Amazon vendors (not Amazon directly) were asking in the neighborhood of US$50 for Craddock's disc. I'm guessing they didn't sell many at that price. Best, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Edward Martin [mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com] > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 10:33 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar > > Eugene, > > You apparently can get one in the USA for about $21. > > http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field- > keywords=michael+craddock&x=0&y=0&ih=11_2_0_1_0_2_0_0_0_1.128_229&fsc=-1 > > I have one, and it is very nice. > > ed > > > > At 08:58 AM 7/30/2010, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > >Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a > >copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. > > > >Also look into: > > > >Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. > > > >Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques > >Pierre Verany. > > > >Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras > Para > >Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. > > > >The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter > two > >features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty > guitar > >solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent > >effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley > >indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a > >little. > > > >Best, > >Eugene > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > > Behalf Of Laura Maschi > > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM > > > To: Bruno Correia > > > Cc: List LUTELIST > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar > > > > > > Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around > 2008... > > > > > > > > > Enviado desde mi iPod > > > > > > El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia > > > escribió: > > > > > > > I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his > > > > own > > > > instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, > specially > > > > after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > voice: (218) 728-1202 > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Eugene, You apparently can get one in the USA for about $21. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=michael+craddock&x=0&y=0&ih=11_2_0_1_0_2_0_0_0_1.128_229&fsc=-1 I have one, and it is very nice. ed At 08:58 AM 7/30/2010, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Laura Maschi > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM > To: Bruno Correia > Cc: List LUTELIST > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar > > Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... > > > Enviado desde mi iPod > > El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia > escribió: > > > I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his > > own > > instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially > > after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > > > > > > > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comiença la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astrée. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Laura Maschi > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM > To: Bruno Correia > Cc: List LUTELIST > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar > > Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... > > > Enviado desde mi iPod > > El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia > escribió: > > > I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his > > own > > instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially > > after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > > > > > > > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
I don't think he is talking about the earliest 16th-c. publications of guitar music (hopefully), but referring to the semi-obscure, iconography-based history of things like gittern, citole, etc. The dates he gives fall in the couple centuries before the music Jocelyn offered us. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Bruno Correia > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 10:41 PM > To: List LUTELIST > Subject: [LUTE] Four c. guitar > >I think John Williams never read anything about the history of his own >instrument. Check at 1:38. Couldn't believe he said that, specially >after watching those great videos by Jocelyn Nelson. > > > >[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > > > >-- > > References > >1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_LNU1-s4BE&feature=related > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
