RE: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
>>Rather than optimising how people post, I >>would be happy simply to stop the recent flood of lazy top posting. >I don't know how other mail clients behave when it comes to hiding >various elements of messages, but for what it's worth: Wellp, in general, unless a top-posted post is something along the lines of "Thanks!" or "That works great!", in which case I'd just delete it immediately, it'd be something I wouldn't want to read backwards or upside-down, in which case I'd *also* delete it immediately. Ditto for 4 video-pages of nonstop '>'s, or what *appears* to be so but is in fact a line or two of actual reply but buried within with no blank lines to set them off. Or some cutesy html-formatted crap that makes real quoting difficult (blockquoted with indentation, left-border colored, etc.). Or worse, some B'harni-awful colorscheme like green-on-red, or *any* color on a blinding-white background. Make it hard for me to read, and I just won't read it. Simple. If enough people were to have their posts ignored if top-posted (or exhibiting any of the subsequent offenses), they might (eventually) be inclined to change. Simply rewarding bad behavior while complaining about it changes nothing. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[OT] Configuring Opera (was Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 06:52:44AM -0800, Ben Fritz wrote: > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > It would be opera:config. I use the Opera web browser at home, but > I've never been impressed with the mail client. Anyway, opera:config > has a search option that will hide any options that don't contain the > search term. Try searching for "address", though I doubt Opera's mail > client lets you configure the reply to that much detail. As I The line in question is known as the attribution. Munging the "reply to" is an entirely different matter and is considered harmful: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Chris Bannister wrote: > I did not write that. Sorry, but I don't think I misrepresented anyone, if my understanding of quoting is accepted. Suppose I am replying to JCitizen and my message is: JCitizen wrote: >> > That means that JCitizen wrote "" in reply to someone else who had written "". Thanks for that interesting information you gave on /raw at Gmane, however I don't want to comment any further because I've probably taken more than enough of people's time. John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 5:09 AM, John Beckett wrote: > Rather than optimising how people post, I > would be happy simply to stop the recent flood of lazy top posting. > Me too. I don't know how other mail clients behave when it comes to hiding various elements of messages, but for what it's worth: Since Gmail by default hides quoted stuff if it appears at the end of a post, top-posting forces me to click on "show quoted text" just to make sure I haven't missed some context. Which can get annoying, because otherwise the text that's hidden is stuff I'm happy not to see most of the time, such as info about the list. Bottom and inter-posting is much more pleasant on Gmail, at least, so I wish this group's norms were standard practice everywhere. -BC --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 05:42:42PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: > > Chris Bannister wrote: > >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of > >> the person to whom you are replying). I did not write that. > > I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can > > scan the headers, or am I missing something? > > If a spammer subscribes to the list, then yes, they can use the headers > to harvest the email address of everyone who posts. However, our > messages also end up on web pages where there are no mail headers. > > By searching for old posts, we can see that all vim_use mail is archived > at: > groups.google.com > tech.groups.yahoo.com > www.nabble.com > markmail.org > www.mail-archive.com > article.gmane.org http://www.ii.com/internet/robots/procmail/qs/ notes: "Tip: At Gmane you can view the unmunged version of a message by appending /raw to the message's URL. This is discussed in the Gmane FAQ." Gmane FAQ: http://gmane.org/faq.php > It so happens that each of these archives uses some method to obscure > email addresses. However, next week, someone could decide that they Even the "from:" header? You could argue that obscuring the from header is a bad idea because there is then no chance of corresponding with that poster. For example, I would welcome further correspondence from anyone with something worthwhile to say, even if it was an old post in some archive somewhere. > Furthermore, there is good reason to believe that spammers pay to defeat > captcha on Google Groups and Yahoo, etc. As profitable avenues for > spammers dry up, who knows what they will do next? Perhaps they might > pay for a system that harvests all the obscured email addresses from > archived mailing lists. Couldn't be that hard to scan for jjj at example dot com or variants thereof. > Finally, I would recommend an application of common sense (this is not > aimed at Chris). When replying to a public mailing list, it would be > unwise to include anyone's home address and phone number. It's just I snip out sigs anyway and would probably snip out an address and phone number *but* I consider it *extremely* bad manners to edit someones message to my liking and making it look as though that is what they wrote. So, of course, I won't obfuscate anything anyone else wrote. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 10:00:51AM -0500, Marvin Renich wrote: > Inter-posting (or interleaved posting) *is* bottom posting[0]. Bottom [..] > [0] http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/bottom-posting.html No! Bottom posting is just jumping to the end of the message and typing your reply. Proper quoting means taking the time to snip out unnecessary text (as I have done) and typing your reply below the quote referred to. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > On 09/01/09 15:52, Ben Fritz wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > > > > > Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config > > > or whatever Opera calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? > > > > It would be opera:config. [...] > > If filtering on "address" leads nothing useful, [...] Wtf has any of this got to do with the `Easiest way to insert a blank line?'? C'mon dudes, with the collective IQ of this list I'm sure we can manage a relevant subject line if we try hard enough. --Antony P.S. the above was taken from my book `Embroidery and Horsemanship' in the chapter on Fourier transforms. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On 09/01/09 15:52, Ben Fritz wrote: > > > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > >> Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config or whatever Opera >> calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? > > It would be opera:config. I use the Opera web browser at home, but > I've never been impressed with the mail client. Anyway, opera:config > has a search option that will hide any options that don't contain the > search term. Try searching for "address", though I doubt Opera's mail > client lets you configure the reply to that much detail. As I > said...not a very impressive mail client in my opinion. If filtering on "address" leads nothing useful, try filtering on "reply_header" (or maybe on "reply"), which is what distinguishes the equivalent prefs in Thunderbird and SeaMonkey, as follows: mailnews.reply_header_authorwrote mailnews.reply_header_colon mailnews.reply_header_locale mailnews.reply_header_ondate mailnews.reply_header_originalmessage mailnews.reply_header_separator mailnews.reply_header_type The first of these seems the most promising one; but of course, on Opera it might be different. Best regards, Tony. -- With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. -- RFC 1925 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:52:44 +0800, Ben Fritz wrote: > > > > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > >> Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config or whatever Opera >> calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? > > It would be opera:config. I use the Opera web browser at home, but > I've never been impressed with the mail client. Anyway, opera:config > has a search option that will hide any options that don't contain the > search term. Try searching for "address", though I doubt Opera's mail > client lets you configure the reply to that much detail. As I > said...not a very impressive mail client in my opinion. At least it works, and I like its size(browser + mail client < 10M), and it has a function, that is to leave the mails on server until you delete it in opera, I miss it. And it can filter most mails automatically even I don't configure it. Maybe it's fine for lazy man like me. I have searched with keyword "reply" and "address", nothing useful got. -- Regards, Van. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config or whatever Opera > calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? It would be opera:config. I use the Opera web browser at home, but I've never been impressed with the mail client. Anyway, opera:config has a search option that will hide any options that don't contain the search term. Try searching for "address", though I doubt Opera's mail client lets you configure the reply to that much detail. As I said...not a very impressive mail client in my opinion. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:41:45 +0800, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > > Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config or whatever Opera > calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? > > I don't think they are there. -- Regards, Van. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On 09/01/09 09:16, Yue Wu wrote: > On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:40:13 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 01:03:39PM +0800, Yue Wu wrote: >>> On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:16:26 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:55:49PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: > * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the > person to whom you are replying). I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can scan the headers, or am I missing something? >>> I don't too, and I always forget to remove the email address :( >> The Opera client you are using doesn't include the email address in the >> attribution, so you don't need to worry about it. :) >> > > No, I remove address by hand... Don't know how to configure it :( > > Have you tried the about:config page (or opera:config or whatever Opera calls it, I'm no Opera guru)? Best regards, Tony. -- Who messed with my anti-paranoia shot? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:40:13 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 01:03:39PM +0800, Yue Wu wrote: >> On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:16:26 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: >> > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:55:49PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: >> >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the >> >> person to whom you are replying). >> > >> > I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can scan the >> > headers, or am I missing something? >> > >> >> I don't too, and I always forget to remove the email address :( > > The Opera client you are using doesn't include the email address in the > attribution, so you don't need to worry about it. :) > No, I remove address by hand... Don't know how to configure it :( -- Regards, Van. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On 09/01/09 07:40, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 04:20:37AM +0100, Tony Mechelynck wrote:
>> On 05/01/09 05:55, John Beckett wrote:
>>> * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and
>>> put your reply underneath).
>> Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and (I think) will
>> not be enforced.
>
> Top posting is just as bad as bottom posting if you don't remove any
> irrelevant text.
>
> Also if you inline post, delete anything after it. There are lots of
> messages where:
>
> [some text]
>
> reply to [some text]
>
> [heaps and heaps of unnecessary text]
>
> Where the [heaps and heaps of unnecessary text] could easily be deleted
> saving bandwidth/storage etc. and also making message cleaner and easier
> to parse.
>
I try to remove irrelevant text, though quoted text below my last
inline-reply may in some cases be relevant. When in doubt, I usually
prefer to risk quoting a little too much (which is reversible in the
next post) rather than too little (which isn't). Maybe a tendency for 爲
無爲、則無不治 ? ("Enact inaction, a rule without exceptions" -- LAOZI,
Dao-de Jing, ch. III /in fine/)
When confronted with a top-posted mail, and I don't feel like taking the
trouble of correcting the order of the quotes, I usually feel compelled
to remove the "--- Original Message ---" line and everything below it.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
MOCK APPLE PIE (No Apples Needed)
Pastry to two crust 9-inch pie 36 RITZ Crackers
2 cups water 2 cups sugar
2 teaspoons cream of tartar 2 tablespoons lemon juice
Grated rind of one lemonButter or margarine
Cinnamon
Roll out bottom crust of pastry and fit into 9-inch pie plate. Break
RITZ Crackers coarsely into pastry-lined plate. Combine water, sugar
and cream of tartar in saucepan, boil gently for 15 minutes. Add lemon
juice and rind. Cool. Pour this syrup over Crackers, dot generously
with butter or margarine and sprinkle with cinnamon. Cover with top
crust. Trim and flute edges together. Cut slits in top crust to let
steam escape. Bake in a hot oven (425 F) 30 to 35 minutes, until crust
is crisp and golden. Serve warm. Cut into 6 to 8 slices.
-- Found lurking on a Ritz Crackers box
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php
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Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 01:03:39PM +0800, Yue Wu wrote: > On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:16:26 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:55:49PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: > >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the > >> person to whom you are replying). > > > > I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can scan the > > headers, or am I missing something? > > > > I don't too, and I always forget to remove the email address :( The Opera client you are using doesn't include the email address in the attribution, so you don't need to worry about it. :) -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 04:20:37AM +0100, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > > On 05/01/09 05:55, John Beckett wrote: > > * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and > > put your reply underneath). > > Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and (I think) will > not be enforced. Top posting is just as bad as bottom posting if you don't remove any irrelevant text. Also if you inline post, delete anything after it. There are lots of messages where: [some text] reply to [some text] [heaps and heaps of unnecessary text] Where the [heaps and heaps of unnecessary text] could easily be deleted saving bandwidth/storage etc. and also making message cleaner and easier to parse. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On 07/01/09 09:24, Tom Link wrote: >>> Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and >>> (I think) will not be enforced. >> [...] >> (but I won't try to promote inter-posting). > > IIRC there is a rfc about quoting (maybe it's part of the netiquette) > and "inter-posting" is widely considered good practice. IMHO the > function of a quote is to make clear what you're referring to not to > repeat what has been said. > > I know that certain e-mail clients make "inter-posting" difficult but > IIRC even outlook has an option somewhere that puts an end to "bottom > full-quotes"/top posts. It remains a problem with certain web-based > clients though. > > I think "inter-posting" should be promoted. Most new users will > continue to use the Internet and sooner or later they will most likely > be asked (more or less friendly) to change their quoting style anyway. > > Maybe the vim-information page on google groups should be split into > "VIM Community" and "Please read first before posting"? I think that "In Rome, do as the Romans" is a good general rule here. In the Vim mailing lists, top-posting is shunned, so new posters should avoid it (and old posters should know better than to use it). Yet I've heard of other groups where top-posting is the norm, and I've even received mail from support engineers starting "Put your reply at the top, and don't delete anything". Other people, other places, other rules. Similarly, Bram prefers to know who he's talking to, and most of us use our "real" names on this list. Yet I'm subscribed to another "family" of newsgroups where "NoOp" "»Q«" and "Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo" are regarded as perfectly acceptable posters' names. (I still use my real name and email address there, and if any spammer tries to harvest it, I report my spam -whatever of it goes past Google's filters or is sent to my other email addresses- to the SpamCop blocking list and the spammer's ISP's abuse desk.) Best regards, Tony. -- We are all worms. But I do believe I am a glowworm. -- Winston Churchill --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009, Marvin Renich wrote: > > * Tom Link [090107 03:29]: > > > > > > Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and > > > > (I think) will not be enforced. > > > > > > [...] > > > (but I won't try to promote inter-posting). > > > > IIRC there is a rfc about quoting (maybe it's part of the netiquette) > > and "inter-posting" is widely considered good practice. IMHO the > > function of a quote is to make clear what you're referring to not to > > repeat what has been said. > > Inter-posting (or interleaved posting) *is* bottom posting[0]. Bottom > posting is putting the reply after the text to which you are responding. > > I was going to expand on this, but the cited reference does a much > better job. > > ...Marvin > > [0] http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/bottom-posting.html > > > > Then what is the name for *this* type of posting? -- regards, GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24 gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3 唐詩115 王維 輞川閑居贈裴秀才迪 寒山轉蒼翠 秋水日潺湲 倚杖柴門外 臨風聽暮蟬 渡頭餘落日 墟里上孤煙 復值接輿醉 狂歌五柳前 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
* Tom Link [090107 03:29]: > > > > Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and > > > (I think) will not be enforced. > > > > [...] > > (but I won't try to promote inter-posting). > > IIRC there is a rfc about quoting (maybe it's part of the netiquette) > and "inter-posting" is widely considered good practice. IMHO the > function of a quote is to make clear what you're referring to not to > repeat what has been said. Inter-posting (or interleaved posting) *is* bottom posting[0]. Bottom posting is putting the reply after the text to which you are responding. I was going to expand on this, but the cited reference does a much better job. ...Marvin [0] http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/bottom-posting.html --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > To insert an empty line and remain in Normal mode, without going to > Insert mode and back: > >below current line: >:put ='' Was I the only one who misunderstood the two single quotes and thought it was one double quote (which of course does nothing)? BTW, why is there no cmdline completion of expressions when doing :pu = like there is when you do "= (double-quote) in Normal mode? Thanks, Ephraim --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
Hello, "Tom Link" wrote: > IIRC there is a rfc about quoting (maybe it's part of the netiquette) > and "inter-posting" is widely considered good practice. IMHO the > function of a quote is to make clear what you're referring to not to > repeat what has been said. Sven Guckes used to maintain a how-to about posting. http://web.archive.org/web/20020219152132/http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mail/edit.html PS: Happy new year. -- Luc Hermitte http://lh-vim.googlecode.com/ http://hermitte.free.fr/vim/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
Tom Link wrote: > I think "inter-posting" should be promoted. Most new users > will continue to use the Internet and sooner or later they > will most likely be asked (more or less friendly) to change > their quoting style anyway. > > Maybe the vim-information page on google groups should be > split into "VIM Community" and "Please read first before > posting"? While I agree in principle, I think we are likely to get pretty good results from an occasional post of a brief list of suggestions, and that would probably be sufficient. Rather than optimising how people post, I would be happy simply to stop the recent flood of lazy top posting. The problem is that I'd need a long paragraph to explain "inter posting", and once a set of rules exceeds a paragraph it become somewhat self-defeating. John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
> > Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and > > (I think) will not be enforced. > > [...] > (but I won't try to promote inter-posting). IIRC there is a rfc about quoting (maybe it's part of the netiquette) and "inter-posting" is widely considered good practice. IMHO the function of a quote is to make clear what you're referring to not to repeat what has been said. I know that certain e-mail clients make "inter-posting" difficult but IIRC even outlook has an option somewhere that puts an end to "bottom full-quotes"/top posts. It remains a problem with certain web-based clients though. I think "inter-posting" should be promoted. Most new users will continue to use the Internet and sooner or later they will most likely be asked (more or less friendly) to change their quoting style anyway. Maybe the vim-information page on google groups should be split into "VIM Community" and "Please read first before posting"? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Chris Bannister wrote: >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of >> the person to whom you are replying). > > I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can > scan the headers, or am I missing something? If a spammer subscribes to the list, then yes, they can use the headers to harvest the email address of everyone who posts. However, our messages also end up on web pages where there are no mail headers. By searching for old posts, we can see that all vim_use mail is archived at: groups.google.com tech.groups.yahoo.com www.nabble.com markmail.org www.mail-archive.com article.gmane.org It so happens that each of these archives uses some method to obscure email addresses. However, next week, someone could decide that they would like to set up another archive, and they might not bother to obfuscate addresses. Also, while it's rare, I have seen a blog with a comment on a vim_use message, and they posted the whole message including its quoted email address, in plain view. Furthermore, there is good reason to believe that spammers pay to defeat captcha on Google Groups and Yahoo, etc. As profitable avenues for spammers dry up, who knows what they will do next? Perhaps they might pay for a system that harvests all the obscured email addresses from archived mailing lists. Other lists have similar recommendations, for example: http://cygwin.com/acronyms/#PCYMTNQREAIYR Please Configure Your Mailer To Not Quote Raw E-mail Addresses In Your Replies. Finally, I would recommend an application of common sense (this is not aimed at Chris). When replying to a public mailing list, it would be unwise to include anyone's home address and phone number. It's just polite to also not include their email address. Why would you include an address? If it's too much bother to omit it, why post at all? John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:16:26 +0800, Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:55:49PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: >> FOR NEW SUBSCRIBERS on this mailing list: >> >> * Thanks for joining, we like the company ... BUT: >> * No signature/disclaimer/waffle attachments please (an attachment for a >> patch, for example, is fine). >> * Trim waffle from the message you are replying to. >> * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and >> put your reply underneath). > > Agreed! > >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the >> person to whom you are replying). > > I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can scan the > headers, or am I missing something? > I don't too, and I always forget to remove the email address :( -- Regards, Van. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 03:55:49PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: > FOR NEW SUBSCRIBERS on this mailing list: > > * Thanks for joining, we like the company ... BUT: > * No signature/disclaimer/waffle attachments please (an attachment for a > patch, for example, is fine). > * Trim waffle from the message you are replying to. > * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and > put your reply underneath). Agreed! > * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the > person to whom you are replying). I don't understand this. If you can scan the body, you can scan the headers, or am I missing something? -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
Saluton Tony :) On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 04:20:37 +0100, Tony Mechelynck dixit: > > * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the > > person to whom you are replying). > > Note that Bram always _adds_ the email address of the author of the > mail to which he is replying to the To/CC headers, in addition to the > mailing-list address, so I'm not convinced of the relevancy and > applicability of this latest supposed norm. Addresses added in headers are OK, because it is more difficult by spam address-harvesters to get them. If you leave email addresses in the mail *body*, they can be easily picked by the harvesters. If I understand it correctly, the norm applies to email addresses quoted in the mail *body*, not in the headers. BTW, good email user agents can be configured to reply to the list, to the list and all the former recipients, only to the former recipients, etc. > Oh, and by the way, John, you forgot one: > > DO NOT start a thread about a new subject by replying to an existing > post. (The felony is done now, all I can do, I think, is to morph the > subject.) Ditto! Raúl "DervishD" Núñez de Arenas Coronado -- Linux Registered User 88736 | http://www.dervishd.net It's my PC and I'll cry if I want to... RAmen! We are waiting for 13 Feb 2009 23:31:30 + ... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
Tony Mechelynck wrote: >> * No signature/disclaimer/waffle attachments please (an >> attachment for a patch, for example, is fine). > > Why no signature? Or maybe you meant no sig _attachment_? Yes, I was trying to say "no junk attachment" (the message I was replying to had a .gif file as an attachment, which I assume was unhelpful for this mailing list). >> * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are >> replying to, and put your reply underneath). > > Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and > (I think) will not be enforced. In the last couple of months, we have seen a growing trend towards top posting, sometimes with a brief thanks or whatever, followed by the entire original message. I thought I would push back against that trend (but I won't try to promote inter-posting). >> * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address >> of the person to whom you are replying). > > Note that Bram always _adds_ the email address of the author > of the mail to which he is replying to the To/CC headers, in > addition to the mailing-list address, so I'm not convinced of > the relevancy and applicability of this latest supposed norm. Naturally my messages are not aimed at Bram (or any of our other frequently-useful members, such as you). Seriously: Please do NOT inter-post if it would take you (Tony) an extra half minute. You are able to give a coherent reply at the bottom. Sometimes (like in this thread) you might inter post, but in general, if someone is giving several useful replies they should post however they think best, IMHO. I canvassed opinions on quoting addresses here, and there was a small consensus that we should encourage a policy to "remove any email addresses". Again, I don't think Bram et al should change their procedures, but I think it's reasonable to ask occasional contributors to take extra trouble. John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On 05/01/09 04:42, Tim Chase wrote: [...] > As an aside, somewhere I picked up this little shorthand for this > pair of commands: > > :put_ > :put!_ Reading the black hole register! Of course! Now why didn't I think of that? Yet I do use "cp /dev/null filename" in the shell (and I learnt "COPY NUL filename", the equivalent, in my first few days with DOS) to make sure a file exists and is zero-length. > > which is kinda handy, given the number of times I reach for the > command Tony uses, only to get bitten by using the wrong quotes > (double-quotes, making for commented text, rather than > single-quotes). I thought paired double quotes (in the expression register) would work, but experiment shows that they don't. > > Additionally, using the "!" to mean "before the given line" is > another nice twist. and thanks, Tim, I had forgotten that one. > > -tim Best regards, Tony. -- Windows M!uqomz --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Rules for replying to posts on this list (Was: Easiest way to insert a blank line?)
On 05/01/09 05:55, John Beckett wrote: > FOR NEW SUBSCRIBERS on this mailing list: > > * Thanks for joining, we like the company ... BUT: > * No signature/disclaimer/waffle attachments please (an attachment for a > patch, for example, is fine). Why no signature? Or maybe you meant no sig _attachment_? > * Trim waffle from the message you are replying to. Note that the Google Group is clever enough to remove its own waffle from the quoted message while adding it back at the bottom of the reply. > * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and > put your reply underneath). Inter-posting (like this) is even better, but harder, and (I think) will not be enforced. > * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the > person to whom you are replying). Note that Bram always _adds_ the email address of the author of the mail to which he is replying to the To/CC headers, in addition to the mailing-list address, so I'm not convinced of the relevancy and applicability of this latest supposed norm. > > Thanks > John Oh, and by the way, John, you forgot one: DO NOT start a thread about a new subject by replying to an existing post. (The felony is done now, all I can do, I think, is to morph the subject.) Best regards, Tony. -- Captain Hook died of jock itch. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
FOR NEW SUBSCRIBERS on this mailing list: * Thanks for joining, we like the company ... BUT: * No signature/disclaimer/waffle attachments please (an attachment for a patch, for example, is fine). * Trim waffle from the message you are replying to. * Use BOTTOM POSTING (quote a few lines that you are replying to, and put your reply underneath). * Remove any email addresses (do not quote the email address of the person to whom you are replying). Thanks John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Tony Mechelynck wrote: > On 05/01/09 04:11, Aman Jain wrote: >> thanks for the reply tony, but this was not easiest :) > > Depends what you call "easiest". I think "the easiest" is o (below > current line) or O (above current line), but you said you > specifically did not want that. If one key (F5, once you've set it up > once and for all in your vimrc) is not "the easiest" then I wonder what is. > > Best regards, > Tony. I was a little confused why the original question suggested 'o', instead of just 'o'. has nothing to do with adding a new line. If you're already in insert mode, then simply hitting 'return' (twice, if you're not on the beginning/end of a line) will work just fine - similarly to pretty much any other editor, If you're not in insert mode, then 'o' will add a blank line. I would say that, since *I* normally continue typing on the new blank line, 'o' is 'easiest' - no 'esc' necessary. If you want to return to command line, then press as normal. Max. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
> To insert an empty line and remain in Normal mode, without going to > Insert mode and back: > > below current line: > :put ='' > above current line: > :.-1put ='' As an aside, somewhere I picked up this little shorthand for this pair of commands: :put_ :put!_ which is kinda handy, given the number of times I reach for the command Tony uses, only to get bitten by using the wrong quotes (double-quotes, making for commented text, rather than single-quotes). Additionally, using the "!" to mean "before the given line" is another nice twist. -tim --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On 05/01/09 04:11, Aman Jain wrote: > thanks for the reply tony, but this was not easiest :) Depends what you call "easiest". I think "the easiest" is o (below current line) or O (above current line), but you said you specifically did not want that. If one key (F5, once you've set it up once and for all in your vimrc) is not "the easiest" then I wonder what is. Best regards, Tony. -- WARNING: Reading this fortune can affect the dimensionality of your mind, change the curvature of your spine, cause the growth of hair on your palms, and make a difference in the outcome of your favorite war. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
thanks for the reply tony, but this was not easiest :) On Jan 5, 8:08 am, Tony Mechelynck wrote: > On 05/01/09 03:31, Aman Jain wrote: > > > Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC > > > Thanks > > Aman Jain > > To insert an empty line and remain in Normal mode, without going to > Insert mode and back: > > below current line: > :put ='' > above current line: > :.-1put ='' > > elsewhere: add a line number > e.g., above first line > :0put ='' > after last line > :$put ='' > > You can map this to a key: > :map :put ='' > :map:.-1put ='' > :cmap put ='' > :cmap -1put ='' > > then use F5 in normal mode to open a line below current line; Shift-F5 > to open it above current line; or hit : (colon) then a line number (or > anything which is valid as a line number within a |range| e.g. a > pattern, a mark, $ for "last line", etc.) then hit F5 to open an empty > line after that line. Same with Shift-F5 for "before that line". > > Best regards, > Tony. > -- > The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that > will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful. > -- Mark Twain. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
On 05/01/09 03:31, Aman Jain wrote: > Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC > > Thanks > Aman Jain To insert an empty line and remain in Normal mode, without going to Insert mode and back: below current line: :put ='' above current line: :.-1put ='' elsewhere: add a line number e.g., above first line :0put ='' after last line :$put ='' You can map this to a key: :map:put ='' :map :.-1put ='' :cmap put ='' :cmap -1put ='' then use F5 in normal mode to open a line below current line; Shift-F5 to open it above current line; or hit : (colon) then a line number (or anything which is valid as a line number within a |range| e.g. a pattern, a mark, $ for "last line", etc.) then hit F5 to open an empty line after that line. Same with Shift-F5 for "before that line". Best regards, Tony. -- The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
> Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC Not exactly, but vim makes it easy to map. I personally don't use for its intended purpose, so I remap it to do precisely what you describe (along with "-" as the analogue): :nnoremap o :nnoremap - O to put a blank line below/above the current line. -tim --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Suppose there's no blank line already!! On Jan 5, 7:59 am, Alick Guo wrote: > Perhaps you want to insert multi blank line , you can copy a blank line an > than paste it for multi-times OR you can also use "Record" to doing 'o' > ->ESC for multi-times. > > Anyway if "A" blank line is what you want , plz forget above. [?] > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Aman Jain wrote: > > > > > Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC > > > Thanks > > Aman Jain > > > > 330.gif > < 1KViewDownload --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Perhaps you want to insert multi blank line , you can copy a blank line an than paste it for multi-times OR you can also use "Record" to doing 'o' ->ESC for multi-times. Anyway if "A" blank line is what you want , plz forget above. [?] On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Aman Jain wrote: > > Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC > > Thanks > Aman Jain > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- <>
Easiest way to insert a blank line?
Is there a quicker way to insert a blank line, than by doing 'o'->ESC Thanks Aman Jain --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
