Re: [Vo]:February 13th A. Rossi interview from 22passi blog
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Charles HOPE lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: Murray should apologize to Earthtech for making derogatory comments on Rossi's experiment that were quotes of Cude's criticism? Not at all. I am saying that Murray should have copied the following to EarthTech. He left them without the rest of the story. fromRich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com reply-tovortex-l@eskimo.com to joshua.c...@yahoo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, michael barron mhbar...@gmail.com, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com, Rich Murray rmfor...@comcast.net, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net dateThu, Feb 10, 2011 at 1:04 AM subject [Vo]:probably, the Rossi demos have a complex control box with thermal controls that lower the electric input power when the reactor gets too hot: Cede: Murray 2011.02.09 mailed-by eskimo.com unsubscribe Unsubscribe from this sender hide details Feb 10 (7 days ago) probably, the Rossi demos have a complex control box with thermal controls that lower the electric input heater power when the reactor gets too hot: Cude: Murray 2011.02.09 fromMark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net reply-tovortex-l@eskimo.com to vortex-l@eskimo.com dateWed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:50 PM subject RE: [Vo]:Levi's interpretation of the two Rossi demos does not hold water 9:50 PM (51 minutes ago) This whole thread started by the critique by Joshua Cude posted by Rich Murray... It would appear that Joshua (and Rich) have not read all of the comments and reports on Rossi's website, so they were UNinformed as to the purpose of the 'control box'. Rich, would you please correct Joshua on this so he doesn't go spreading MISinformation about the demo! -Mark snip end
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Questioned by who? For what reason? Lots of people have questioned lots of things, but there is no rational reason to doubt the flow rate. How about a commercial pump that looks exactly like the one in the picture, with a max flow rate less than half of what is claimed. But if you can find a commercial pump that looks like the one in the picture that provides the flow rate they claim, *then* you could remove that doubt. Rossi could do it more easily. The flow rate was measured with a graduated cylinder and stopwatch, and by observing the reservoir weight fall. There are no better methods than this. It does not matter what anyone claims about the commercial pump, or whether some people are confused by the pump specifications. You measure the flow rate by measuring the flow rate, not by guessing about machine specifications, or by waving your hands. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Here are a couple of additional comments from Celani: a) The NaI (Tl) gamma detector had an energy range from 25 to 2000 keV; b) Celani asked, in several public mail to Rossi, that for a conclusive SCIENTIFIC demonstration of such wonderful device, the maximum temperature of the outgoing water has to be 90°C so that CONVENTIONAL flow calorimetry can be used (rather than phase-change calorimetry). - Jed
[Vo]:ICCF16 Abstracts
Srinivasan sent me the ICCF16 Abstracts. I will upload them soon. I am having some minor technical problems with computers. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Questioned by who? For what reason? Lots of people have questioned lots of things, but there is no rational reason to doubt the flow rate. How about a commercial pump that looks exactly like the one in the picture, with a max flow rate less than half of what is claimed. But if you can find a commercial pump that looks like the one in the picture that provides the flow rate they claim, *then* you could remove that doubt. Rossi could do it more easily. The flow rate was measured with a graduated cylinder and stopwatch, and by observing the reservoir weight fall. There are no better methods than this. And a good way to measure car speed is with a speedometer. But if someone claims have driven 250 mph in a chevy Volt, I'm gonna suspect the honesty first, and the speedometer second.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: And a good way to measure car speed is with a speedometer. But if someone claims have driven 250 mph in a chevy Volt, I'm gonna suspect the honesty first, and the speedometer second. If you suspect that Levi and the others at U. Bologna are not honest, then nothing they say or do will convince you. You will conclude that they are conspiring to fool the world temporarily and destroy their own reputations, for some inexplicable reason. However, if you assume they are ordinary, sane professors who act like any other ex-President of the Chemical Society would act, then you will assume they are capable of measuring a flow rate with a graduated cylinder and stopwatch, or by watching the weight change on a digital weight scale. These tasks are easy. Any grade-school child could handle them. There is no chance that a group of professional scientists working for 6 weeks would continually make mistakes doing them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: With 1 kW, you can raise the temperature of the water at 300 mL/min about 50C to give 65C or so, definitely too hot to touch. That is true, but the power was not 1 kW. It was 400 W. It was 1 kW at the beginning of the experiment, but a flow calorimeter or hot water heater cools down rapidly at these flow rates, so a few minutes after the power falls to 400 W, the water would be lukewarm. In Japan, most kitchen and bathroom sink water heaters are the instant, on-demand type that heat up the water as it flows through. Essentially, they are flow calorimeters. A recalcitrant old gas fired one that I use often goes off and stays off as the water is flowing. The water cools down instantly. (Come to think of it, that's kind of dangerous. We should probably get it replaced.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Peristaltic pumps of exactly this size deliver flows between a few microliters and 2000 ml/minute, depending on the ID of the tube and the number of pulses per minute. However a good report must answer in advance to all the possible (and impossible too) questions of the amateur and professional skeptics. Facts are almot always losing when they fight with memes- this was the reason I have informed the readers of my blog about this, rather disturbing, paper: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full Peter On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Questioned by who? For what reason? Lots of people have questioned lots of things, but there is no rational reason to doubt the flow rate. How about a commercial pump that looks exactly like the one in the picture, with a max flow rate less than half of what is claimed. But if you can find a commercial pump that looks like the one in the picture that provides the flow rate they claim, *then* you could remove that doubt. Rossi could do it more easily. The flow rate was measured with a graduated cylinder and stopwatch, and by observing the reservoir weight fall. There are no better methods than this. And a good way to measure car speed is with a speedometer. But if someone claims have driven 250 mph in a chevy Volt, I'm gonna suspect the honesty first, and the speedometer second. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: With 1 kW, you can raise the temperature of the water at 300 mL/min about 50C to give 65C or so, definitely too hot to touch. That is true, but the power was not 1 kW. It was 400 W. It was 1 kW at the beginning of the experiment, but a flow calorimeter or hot water heater cools down rapidly at these flow rates, so a few minutes after the power falls to 400 W, the water would be lukewarm. In Japan, most kitchen and bathroom sink water heaters are the instant, on-demand type that heat up the water as it flows through. Essentially, they are flow calorimeters. A recalcitrant old gas fired one that I use often goes off and stays off as the water is flowing. The water cools down instantly. (Come to think of it, that's kind of dangerous. We should probably get it replaced. Well, the water did start to cool off. There's a dip in the temperature. But we don't know what the thermal mass of the inside of that device is. It is certainly more than the pipes themselves. What we do know is that it has enough thermal mass that it doesn't heat up in a few minutes; it takes about 30 minutes. And when it is shut off (as in test 2) it cools off rather slowly. The only place it cooled off quickly was at the end of test 1, when they upped the flow rate using tap water, by probably an order of magnitude. I suspect it is designed to have large thermal mass (maybe in hot oil, or even water under pressure), so that after the power is turned off, the thermal mass keeps the output at the bp for some time. That way, they can claim it is self-sustaining, even though it's just cooling off. Clever. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: With 1 kW, you can raise the temperature of the water at 300 mL/min about 50C to give 65C or so, definitely too hot to touch. That is true, but the power was not 1 kW. It was 400 W. It was 1 kW at the beginning of the experiment, but a flow calorimeter or hot water heater cools down rapidly at these flow rates, so a few minutes after the power falls to 400 W, the water would be lukewarm. In Japan, most kitchen and bathroom sink water heaters are the instant, on-demand type that heat up the water as it flows through. Essentially, they are flow calorimeters. A recalcitrant old gas fired one that I use often goes off and stays off as the water is flowing. The water cools down instantly. (Come to think of it, that's kind of dangerous. We should probably get it replaced.) - Jed I meant to add that these flow through water heaters are designed to have low thermal mass (so they heat up quickly), and the flow rate of a tap is much higher than in Rossi's experiment.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: And a good way to measure car speed is with a speedometer. But if someone claims have driven 250 mph in a chevy Volt, I'm gonna suspect the honesty first, and the speedometer second. If you suspect that Levi and the others at U. Bologna are not honest, then nothing they say or do will convince you. You will conclude that they are conspiring to fool the world temporarily and destroy their own reputations, for some inexplicable reason. Wrong. An open demonstration of a benchtop device, to which scientists who are on record as skeptical are permitted, that puts out 10 kW thermal power with no electrical or chemical input for a few consecutive days would convince me they have a new source of energy. If it's a nuclear effect, it should not be that hard to be convincing. But this demo has so many holes, it's truly amazing that anyone is defending it. Then again, if you don't know that steam can be heated above 100C, anything's possible.
Re: [Vo]:ICCF16 Abstracts
Okay, the book is now uploaded here: Srinivasan, M., ed. *ICCF16, 16th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Abstracts*. 2011, ISCMNS. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Srinivasaniccfthinte.pdf I guess the publisher is ISCMNS. The LENR-CANR name came out of kind strange. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Those are good points but the most important thing of all is being left unsaid: NO TIN CUP 100% of all the inventors in the past - who have tried to pull of scams have been seeking immediate funding. That is not the case with Rossi. He has funds in hand to build a MW unit, he says that this plan is underway, and essentially is telling skeptics: stuff it. Even bona fide investors have had a hard time making preliminary contact. I like that attitude. It says to me he is willing to sink or swim based on a demo this year. After which there will be an IPO - and all the normal channels of taking an invention to market will have been bypassed, including the VCs who want 85% of the game. It will be the largest IPO in the history of commerce. Damn the skeptics, damn the VCs, damn the torpedoes - full speed ahead. The people who are complaining the loudest are those who would like - not simply to replicate, but to go beyond. They recognize that the patent is weak (useless, really) and think they can do better. They probably can do better, and Rossi probably realizes that the one thing he has not disclosed is all he has. And it would be easy to lose that. The plan is brilliant - but only if he can deliver. Otherwise, he will look like a fool . but he is going for the gold and doing it his way - and personally I hope he pulls it off. Jones From: Jed Rothwell Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: And a good way to measure car speed is with a speedometer. But if someone claims have driven 250 mph in a chevy Volt, I'm gonna suspect the honesty first, and the speedometer second. If you suspect that Levi and the others at U. Bologna are not honest, then nothing they say or do will convince you. You will conclude that they are conspiring to fool the world temporarily and destroy their own reputations, for some inexplicable reason. However, if you assume they are ordinary, sane professors who act like any other ex-President of the Chemical Society would act, then you will assume they are capable of measuring a flow rate with a graduated cylinder and stopwatch, or by watching the weight change on a digital weight scale. These tasks are easy. Any grade-school child could handle them. There is no chance that a group of professional scientists working for 6 weeks would continually make mistakes doing them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: With 1 kW, you can raise the temperature of the water at 300 mL/min about 50C to give 65C or so, definitely too hot to touch. That is true, but the power was not 1 kW. It was 400 W. It was 1 kW at the beginning of the experiment, but a flow calorimeter or hot water heater cools down rapidly at these flow rates, so a few minutes after the power falls to 400 W, the water would be lukewarm. It was 400 W for less than 15 minutes. After that is was 1.5 kW.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Peter Gluck wrote: However a good report must answer in advance to all the possible (and impossible too) questions of the amateur and professional skeptics. That is impossible. Skeptics can come up with an unlimited number of skeptical objections, especially after they assume that the researchers are dishonest and trying to fool the world. For example, people who think that the Moon Landings were fake will find any amount of evidence for that, and any number of reasons not to believe the truth. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude wrote: I suspect it is designed to have large thermal mass (maybe in hot oil, or even water under pressure), so that after the power is turned off, the thermal mass keeps the output at the bp for some time. That way, they can claim it is self-sustaining, even though it's just cooling off. Clever. The professors tested and calibrated this machine for 6 weeks. They would have discovered that it has a large hidden thermal mass. They observed semi-uncontrolled heat after death among other things. Others in the U.S. have tested it for many hours at a time. There is no chance Rossi has used some trick like this. I suspect is not a particularly useful hypothesis, in any case. Anyone can suspect anything, including hidden wires; a specially reconstructed plug in the wall and a superconducting wire that allows much more electricity than normal while fooling the power meter; oxygen added to the tap water; or a fluid replacing the tap water that happens to be tasteless and potable, but has a lower boiling point than water. All of these have been proposed. Such hypothesis are so far-fetched they should not be taken seriously. Skeptics can come up with hundreds of them, culminating in something like the hypothesis that thousands of rats gathered every night to drink the water in Mizuno's heat after death experiments. I think we should stick to reasonable, plausible hypotheses that have some supporting evidence rather than I suspect or hypothetically someone could . . . or the specifications for a pump I saw on the Internet mean the professors can't read a weight scale. Even allowing the hypothesis that Rossi is a con man, I do not think we should assume that he has an astounding ability to replace wires in walls, or the drinking water in ordinary pipes, or that by standing in the room he can make a university power meter go haywire, or make Dufour think a pipe is hot when it is lukewarm. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Peter Gluck wrote: However a good report must answer in advance to all the possible (and impossible too) questions of the amateur and professional skeptics. That is impossible. Skeptics can come up with an unlimited number of skeptical objections, especially after they assume that the researchers are dishonest and trying to fool the world. For example, people who think that the Moon Landings were fake will find any amount of evidence for that, and any number of reasons not to believe the truth. - Jed Moon landing skeptics are wackos, not scientists. Rossi skeptics are scientists, not wackos. If we are simply to trust people's claims, then what's a demo for? If the effect were real, making a demo that required no trust would be child's play. I don't need to trust Henry Ford to believe internal combustion engines work, or Lisa Meitner to believe fission reactors work, or Richard Garwin to believe hydrogen bombs work... you get the drift.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: That is not the case with Rossi. He has funds in hand to build a MW unit, he says that this plan is underway, and essentially is telling skeptics: stuff it. These are good points. They are not the same kind of evidence as Dufour feeling a hot pipe. They are more the kind of evidence that a police detective would look for in a fraud investigation. Such investigations are not experiments, but they are a valid way to determine what is real and what isn't. The evidence I cited -- that university professors seldom destroy their own reputations for no reason -- is also an example of police detective evidence rather than physical evidence. Beene and are making some assumptions about human nature here. Human nature is, of course, variable and sometime inexplicable, but that does not mean we can make no assumptions based upon in. I prefer physical evidence, but it would be foolish to ignore police detective evidence. If Rossi was asking for capital it would be a red flag. Rossi has many other red flags, as I have often noted, and it sure makes me uncomfortable. They recognize that the patent is weak (useless, really) and think they can do better. They probably can do better . . . That is what I have heard. Rossi mentioned a patent attorney, and someone else told they are taking a second shot at a patent. That is welcome news. Trade secrets will not cut the mustard for this product. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: If we are simply to trust people's claims, then what's a demo for? I do not trust Rossi's claims. I trust that Levi can read a weight scale, and that Dufour is telling me the truth when he says the pipe was too hot to tough. I trust that the power meter was working. If the effect were real, making a demo that required no trust would be child's play. I do not think this demo required any trust. I think that the objections you and others have raised, such as the notion that the flow rate may have been measured wrong, have no merit. I do agree that a better demonstration could have been done, but this one was not as bad as you and others have portrayed it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude wrote: I suspect it is designed to have large thermal mass (maybe in hot oil, or even water under pressure), so that after the power is turned off, the thermal mass keeps the output at the bp for some time. That way, they can claim it is self-sustaining, even though it's just cooling off. Clever. The professors tested and calibrated this machine for 6 weeks. They would have discovered that it has a large hidden thermal mass. They did. It takes 30 minutes to bring the temperature up to the level needed to deliver water at 100C. They observed semi-uncontrolled heat after death among other things. They observed the temperature stay at 100C for 15 minutes. Thermal mass explains that. Others in the U.S. have tested it for many hours at a time. Others? Who? I suspect is not a particularly useful hypothesis, in any case. Well, it is if an experiment can be easily designed to make such suspicions impossible. As would be the case here, if the claims were true. Anyone can suspect anything, including hidden wires; a specially reconstructed plug in the wall and a superconducting wire that allows much more electricity than normal while fooling the power meter; oxygen added to the tap water; or a fluid replacing the tap water that happens to be tasteless and potable, but has a lower boiling point than water. All of these have been proposed. Such hypothesis are so far-fetched they should not be taken seriously. Maybe, but thermal mass, as evidenced by the startup and cool-off times, is not at all far-fetched. And the suspicions you list could be easily excluded with a better designed demo, and in any case, made less likely by allowing observers who are not hand-picked. Skeptics can come up with hundreds of them, culminating in something like the hypothesis that thousands of rats gathered every night to drink the water in Mizuno's heat after death experiments. Right. But set the skeptic in from of his experiments, and he will not suspect rats. I think we should stick to reasonable, plausible hypotheses that have some supporting evidence rather than I suspect or hypothetically someone could . . . or the specifications for a pump I saw on the Internet mean the professors can't read a weight scale. And I think the experiment should be designed so no one could say I suspect, you know like in the examples I gave, there is no room for suspicions. Even allowing the hypothesis that Rossi is a con man, I do not think we should assume that he has an astounding ability to replace wires in walls, or the drinking water in ordinary pipes, or that by standing in the room he can make a university power meter go haywire, or make Dufour think a pipe is hot when it is lukewarm. Whatever. My suspicions do not require any of that. Just some thermal mass inside that giant tin-foil phallus.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I do not think this demo required any trust. But you said, if you trust... then there's no point.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On 02/17/2011 11:41 AM, Joshua Cude wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I do not think this demo required any trust. But you said, if you trust... then there's no point. Calm down, Joshua. Jed meant there's no need to trust the inventor, Rossi, not there's no need to trust anybody anywhere. Jed is a smart dude and there's no call to talk to him like he's an idiot. If you really don't trust anybody then you must conclude that the moon landings *could* have been faked (unless you happen to have been along for the ride on one of them). So, Jed clearly didn't mean there's no need to trust *anybody*. Issues with steam wetness aside, if Rossi's gadget doesn't work, it seems difficult to account for the heat needed simply to bring all the water to the boiling point -- and the evidence is pretty convincing that that, at least, was done. Some notions have been floated to explain the heat of the output in the absence of a working device but none of them seems very convincing (and I'm including the assertion that the pump was insufficient on the list of not very convincing notions, because it requires that Levi et al either be idiots or co-conspirators). As to the investors, or lack thereof, I'm still confused on this point. If there really are Greek investors floating around in the background, then some of Rossi's statements don't make a lot of sense. If there aren't, then some other of Rossi's statements don't seem to make sense. If there are no investors then I would tend to conclude that Rossi, at least, believes in the device; otherwise his behavior doesn't make sense. And if Rossi believes in it, then the idea that there's chemical fuel on board is a non-starter. If there *are* investors, on the other hand, then the demo is a much tougher sell, IMO, because when there's a pile of money involved, even seemingly far-fetched explanations can no longer be discarded out of hand. The only explanation that allows one to comfortably conclude that it's all bogus and which ... er ... holds water even if there are no investors is Horace's, because it could be correct even if Rossi believes the device really works. But I haven't seen a double-check of Horace's math (and I certainly haven't done one myself) and enough slings and arrows have been cast at it to raise some doubt. Of course, as soon as the secret ingredient is revealed we'll know whether Horace was on the right track!
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote: If there *are* investors, on the other hand, then the demo is a much tougher sell, IMO, because when there's a pile of money involved, even seemingly far-fetched explanations can no longer be discarded out of hand. There are plenty of investors dollars floating around. Rossi explains: *In the US we have a factory producing reactors. In Greece there is a Newco owned by large European companies working in the field of energy. There are proposals and we have a contract...* He turns away propositions from new investors because he already has enough money. A lot of it! -- Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying “behold,” This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: The professors tested and calibrated this machine for 6 weeks. They would have discovered that it has a large hidden thermal mass. They did. It takes 30 minutes to bring the temperature up to the level needed to deliver water at 100C. They reportedly had difficulty turning on the excess heat in that run. It would never have risen to 100 deg C without excess heat. My point about the calibrations may be unclear. When you calibrate a system like this, turning on the electric heater only without hydrogen in the nickel, and in various other tests, the presence of a large thermal mass would be revealed. Whatever. My suspicions do not require any of that. Just some thermal mass inside that giant tin-foil phallus. That's funny! Phallus indeed. As I said, the calibration would reveal that. People experienced in flow calorimetry would see it easily. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote: On 02/17/2011 11:41 AM, Joshua Cude wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I do not think this demo required any trust. But you said, if you trust... then there's no point. Calm down, Joshua. Jed meant there's no need to trust the inventor, Rossi, not there's no need to trust anybody anywhere. Jed is a smart dude and there's no call to talk to him like he's an idiot. If you really don't trust anybody then you must conclude that the moon landings *could* have been faked (unless you happen to have been along for the ride on one of them). So, Jed clearly didn't mean there's no need to trust *anybody*. OK. I do get that trust is not necessarily binary, and some trust is needed to believe the moon landing, because tagging along is not feasible, esp. not now. But it is possible to tag along with the good ship Rossi, and, at least for someone present, it should be possible to demonstrate the effect without any need for trust, just like trust is not needed to believe in many other technologies. If that someone is an avowed skeptic, then you could gain the trust of skeptics not present, at least until they can try one out themselves. The problem is that the witnesses they used were hand-picked, and really aren't very believable, and fail to even disclose the apparatus (pump) used, and many of the measurements made (RH vs time, mass of reservoir vs time), and many ordinary observations (what was the expelled fluid like? where did it go? how loud was it; was it consistent with claimed gas flow rate?), etc. And if Rossi believes in it, then the idea that there's chemical fuel on board is a non-starter. I'm not sure. The H-Ni system gives off chemical heat. He may be mistaking it for nuclear.
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it is if an experiment can be easily designed to make such suspicions impossible. As would be the case here, if the claims were true. Seriously, It is nearly impossible to design a demonstration that will eliminate all suspicions, in all people. Some people, such as Robert Park, simply will not believe a claim, no matter how much evidence you present. Even if Park were to attend a first-rate demonstration of the Rossi device, one that addresses all of the issues raised here, he would refuse to believe it. He would make up other objections. I mean it when I say that people can make up unlimited numbers of reasons to dismiss a finding. The scientific method demands that an arbitrary limit be placed on objections. It is a matter of opinion how much proof is needed, and how many objections should be met, but you cannot leave the question undecided indefinitely. Do that, and no question will be settled, nothing will ever be ready for the textbooks, and research will not proceed to the next step. I am not saying that Rossi has met that limit. He is far from it! But you cannot keep moving the goalposts and asking for more and more proof, and is your standard is: Are the skeptics satisfied? Does anyone still have doubts? then you will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely. Many people still dispute special relativity. That's fine. They have every right to do that. But we should not expect physicists to keep repeating experiments that demonstrate the effect of gravity on time, for instance, just to satisfy these skeptics. The physicists have other things to do. Cold fusion researchers should not be forced to do boil off experiments again and again just because the latest crop of nitwits in Wikipedia are unaware of the steps taken to ensure that unboiled water did not leave the cells at Toyota and the French AEC. Just to clarify, Stephen Lawrence is correct. I meant you do not have to trust Rossi. You do have to trust Levi, Celani and Dufour and some other people. They might be conspiring together to fool us. If they can keep a secret, it would be easy for them to fool us. I have no actual proof that the demonstration even took place. The video might have been staged, and the data invented out of whole cloth. If you think that Levi, Celani and the others might do such a thing, then you have no reason to believe any of this is true. I doubt they would, because it would be out of character, and there does not seem to be a motive. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On 02/17/2011 03:27 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: ... I meant you do not have to trust Rossi. You do have to trust Levi, Celani and Dufour and some other people. They might be conspiring together to fool us. If they can keep a secret, it would be easy for them to fool us. I have no actual proof that the demonstration even took place. The video might have been staged, and the data invented out of whole cloth. If you think that Levi, Celani and the others might do such a thing, then you have no reason to believe any of this is true. I doubt they would, because it would be out of character, and there does not seem to be a motive. This reminded me of something which has been bothering me. According to Celani, observers were not allowed into the room until the experiment began to work: The device did not work at first. He and others were waiting impatiently in a room next to the room with the device. ... About 1 to 2 minutes after this /[gamma ray burst]/ event, Rossi emerged from the other room and said the machine just turned on and the demonstration was underway. Why was that? It seems very strange. In particular, it leaves us speculating, entirely in the dark, as to exactly what was going on in the room at the moment when the burst of gamma radiation was detected. That burst of gamma rays has been taken as being highly significant, as it indicated *something* besides chemistry was happening. However, since nobody who was present where the burst was detected also saw what was going on in the demo room at that moment, there is no way to rule out the possibility that the gamma burst was also staged, with Rossi's entrance announcing the start of the show carefully timed to come just after the burst, to make it appear to have been an emission produced by the device when it started. Without more information as to what was going on just before the show, I don't think that particular speculation is all that far-fetched. (Or is it terribly difficult to produce a radiation burst, possibly with a small source in a lead box? I'm assuming it would have been easy for Rossi to do that. Perhaps that's not true.)
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
I wrote: The scientific method demands that an arbitrary limit be placed on objections. It is a matter of opinion how much proof is needed, and how many objections should be met, but you cannot leave the question undecided indefinitely. . . . In this case, I think we need to start drawing some limits to some objections. Skeptical arguments must meet the same level of rigor as any other. I think concerns about the flow rate should be dismissed. I don't care about pump specifications someone found on the Internet. The methods Levi et al. used to measure flow are rock solid and it is silly to dispute them. With all due respect, the assertion made by Horace Heffner that 20 L container of water left a hot room for 1 hour will heat from 15 deg C to 27 deg C is wrong, and should be dismissed. Before people write things like that, I wish they would test the idea. Many assertions about physics are difficult to test, but this one is easy. Fill a large bucket with ~10 L of cold tap water (easy to get this time of year), measure the temperature, leave it in warm room for an hour, and measure it again. Please don't tell us it will rise 10 deg C per hour until you confirm that. In my experience it will do nothing of the sort. To do a more careful test, look at the photo to see what kind of plastic container they used. Find a similar one if possible, one that is closed on all sides like a jerrican or a gasoline container. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: Why was that? It seems very strange. (Image of Rossi, a la Bear Gryllis, with a firesteel trying to start his fire.) firesteel.com T
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
If we had a spectrum, we would know what it was - or more to the point, what it wasn't. I really, REALLY want a spectrum. Just one. On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.comwrote: On 02/17/2011 03:27 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: ... I meant you do not have to trust Rossi. You do have to trust Levi, Celani and Dufour and some other people. They might be conspiring together to fool us. If they can keep a secret, it would be easy for them to fool us. I have no actual proof that the demonstration even took place. The video might have been staged, and the data invented out of whole cloth. If you think that Levi, Celani and the others might do such a thing, then you have no reason to believe any of this is true. I doubt they would, because it would be out of character, and there does not seem to be a motive. This reminded me of something which has been bothering me. According to Celani, observers were not allowed into the room until the experiment began to work: The device did not work at first. He and others were waiting impatiently in a room next to the room with the device. ... About 1 to 2 minutes after this *[gamma ray burst]* event, Rossi emerged from the other room and said the machine just turned on and the demonstration was underway. Why was that? It seems very strange. In particular, it leaves us speculating, entirely in the dark, as to exactly what was going on in the room at the moment when the burst of gamma radiation was detected. That burst of gamma rays has been taken as being highly significant, as it indicated *something* besides chemistry was happening. However, since nobody who was present where the burst was detected also saw what was going on in the demo room at that moment, there is no way to rule out the possibility that the gamma burst was also staged, with Rossi's entrance announcing the start of the show carefully timed to come just after the burst, to make it appear to have been an emission produced by the device when it started. Without more information as to what was going on just before the show, I don't think that particular speculation is all that far-fetched. (Or is it terribly difficult to produce a radiation burst, possibly with a small source in a lead box? I'm assuming it would have been easy for Rossi to do that. Perhaps that's not true.)
RE: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
From: albedo5 If we had a spectrum, we would know what it was - or more to the point, what it wasn't. I really, REALLY want a spectrum. Just one. Hmm . could it be simply a matter of deduction ? . connect the dots with Celani being specifically the only party being disallowed, his earlier Cincinnati group replication paper (which Rossi must have read), the range of common signatures that are possible for Celani to have identified with a portable NaI meter, even if allowed, and the fact that to produce power for $.01/kWhr, a natural emitter instead of an expensive isotope would need to be used. . how many possibilities are there to chose from ?
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Also, the fact that both meters were pegged. That sounds more like an event, and less like the momentary exposure of a shielded catalyst. On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: albedo5 If we had a spectrum, we would know what it was - or more to the point, what it wasn't. I really, REALLY want a spectrum. Just one. Hmm … could it be simply a matter of deduction ? … connect the dots with Celani being specifically the only party being disallowed, his earlier Cincinnati group replication paper (which Rossi must have read), the range of common signatures that are possible for Celani to have identified with a portable NaI meter, even if allowed, and the fact that to produce power for $.01/kWhr, a natural emitter instead of an expensive isotope would need to be used… … how many possibilities are there to chose from ? -- Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying “behold,” This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew
[Vo]:More about ICCF-16
Okay, the abstracts are uploaded, as noted. I hope to have the paper from Robert Duncan by next week. The conference proceedings will be published by Biberian in his electronic journal. Here are a few of my own comments about the conference. The first day of the conference was mainly devoted to nano particle gas loaded cold fusion, the Arata method. Compared to a few years ago, that technique has swept the field. Ever since Arata announced his results I have been hoping this would happen and recommending the technique. I think it is the most likely to be commercially useful. Unfortunately Arata himself could not attend the conference, although his papers listed in the abstracts. Many authors were not able to attend the conference. I hope that Biberian will accept papers from absent authors. Otherwise the proceedings will be skimpy. Takahashi and Kitamura reported on the continuing nano particle work at Kobe University. I was disappointed. My impression is that they have not made much progress. They have still not tried a large sample of material, which I think might produce significantly more heat. Dmitriyeva described the nanoparticle loading experiments underway at Coolescence. They sound promising but I do not think she is ready to sign off on a definite anomaly yet. The trouble with the gas loading experiments at Kobe U., the NRL and Coolescence is that they produce an awful lot of chemical heat and is difficult to separate the chemical heat from the anomalous heat. Kidwell, Knies and Dominguez described many different experiments at the NRL. I found this interesting but disturbing. They have received calorimetric equipment directly from SRI and energetics technology, cathodes from ENEA, and nano particle powder from a variety of sources in Japan and from Brian Ahern. These are hard-working first-class people, yet they still cannot make experiments produce definite excess heat! I have been under the impression that given the right materials and instruments, a “person skilled in the art” (Patent Office jargon) can reliably reproduce cold fusion. Apparently that is still not true. The NRL electrochemical experiments have produced marginal levels of heat several times, and in one recent instance a significant amount of heat. Unfortunately that run got cut off by technical problem. Dominguez displayed a bunch a slides describing ~130 experiments. She went zipping through them. One said “Did not achieve sufficient current density.” She explained later that it did not reach high enough current density because the recombiner failed. Another went for only a few days before something else failed. As she closed the talk she mentioned that they removed the four wire loading measurement sensor in recent experiments because it causes problems. Problems with recombiners and four-wire measurements and so on are normal. These are the reasons the experiments are so hard to do. I said to her after the talk: I think it would be helpful if you would separate the 130 experiments into two groups: 1. Experiments that failed for a known reason such as a recombiner problem; 2. Experiments that met known control parameters and should have worked.” She agreed that would be a good idea. She said that most experiments are in the latter group. Okay, though I, but if they have removed the 4-wire gadget, they are not measuring loading so they do not know whether they have met the control parameters. I do not think they are measuring loading by other methods such as lost gas, but I may be wrong about that. The four wire measurement is what McKubre uses, and he is the one who set the minimum loading control parameter standard. It could be that if you measure loading by some other method you get a different answer, and a different control parameter standard. For example, while I do not know this to be the case, the lost gas method may give a better answer for the entire bulk, but the 4-wire method may tell you about loading near the surface, and near-surface is where you need the high loading. So you should stick to McKubre’s method to be sure you are meeting his parameters. I hope I can upload their slides so readers can see for yourself what I'm blathering on about here. The two Davids Knies and Kidwell described the gas loading experiments in great detail. They are trying every means they can think of to disprove the heat or to show that it is all chemical heat. I sense they are running out of excuses, and they are on the verge of being forced to agree it has to be anomalous heat. Some people say they have gone too far trying to find objections, because they don't want to believe it is cold fusion. Others say they are doing good science and it is up to them to eliminate every conceivable objection before setting off on experiment. Let the reader decide. The biggest anomaly is that the heat from deuterium is much higher than from hydrogen and there is no corresponding endothermic phase after it appears. That seems
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
If you want a natural emitter that would do a burst that would saturate a small NaI detector, that's easy. You would have to have access to something like a Cs137 or Co60/Co57 source, or even something as common as Tc99m, but any medical imaging facility or drilling outfit would have something. The trouble is, each of those have very distinctive spectra that any detector with identification capability would recognise immediately. Most of the strong sources (that wouldn't get you in trouble with the big guys at DHS) have medical or industrial uses. He could have just bought a LOT of kitty litter or bananas (yes, a BIG LOT), and thrown a lead blanket over the pile and removed it just before showing in the room! Handheld detectors are not designed to see really large sources at close range. I bet if I ask the right people I can find out what it would take, based on easily-acquired sources, to saturate a handheld NaI detector. But if, instead of a burst, you get a collected spectrum, I can *tell* you what it is, with very high confidence. That is information, not data. We have lots of data, but very little information. It is very frustrating that someone with an ID-capable detector didn't collect something. Debbie On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: albedo5 If we had a spectrum, we would know what it was - or more to the point, what it wasn't. I really, REALLY want a spectrum. Just one. Hmm … could it be simply a matter of deduction ? … connect the dots with Celani being specifically the only party being disallowed, his earlier Cincinnati group replication paper (which Rossi must have read), the range of common signatures that are possible for Celani to have identified with a portable NaI meter, even if allowed, and the fact that to produce power for $.01/kWhr, a natural emitter instead of an expensive isotope would need to be used… … how many possibilities are there to chose from ?
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Gotta run. I'll catch up in 3 or 4 days. Don't take my absence as a concession. JC On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Well, it is if an experiment can be easily designed to make such suspicions impossible. As would be the case here, if the claims were true. Seriously, It is nearly impossible to design a demonstration that will eliminate all suspicions, in all people. Some people, such as Robert Park, simply will not believe a claim, no matter how much evidence you present. Even if Park were to attend a first-rate demonstration of the Rossi device, one that addresses all of the issues raised here, he would refuse to believe it. He would make up other objections. I mean it when I say that people can make up unlimited numbers of reasons to dismiss a finding. The scientific method demands that an arbitrary limit be placed on objections. It is a matter of opinion how much proof is needed, and how many objections should be met, but you cannot leave the question undecided indefinitely. Do that, and no question will be settled, nothing will ever be ready for the textbooks, and research will not proceed to the next step. I am not saying that Rossi has met that limit. He is far from it! But you cannot keep moving the goalposts and asking for more and more proof, and is your standard is: Are the skeptics satisfied? Does anyone still have doubts? then you will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely. Many people still dispute special relativity. That's fine. They have every right to do that. But we should not expect physicists to keep repeating experiments that demonstrate the effect of gravity on time, for instance, just to satisfy these skeptics. The physicists have other things to do. Cold fusion researchers should not be forced to do boil off experiments again and again just because the latest crop of nitwits in Wikipedia are unaware of the steps taken to ensure that unboiled water did not leave the cells at Toyota and the French AEC. Just to clarify, Stephen Lawrence is correct. I meant you do not have to trust Rossi. You do have to trust Levi, Celani and Dufour and some other people. They might be conspiring together to fool us. If they can keep a secret, it would be easy for them to fool us. I have no actual proof that the demonstration even took place. The video might have been staged, and the data invented out of whole cloth. If you think that Levi, Celani and the others might do such a thing, then you have no reason to believe any of this is true. I doubt they would, because it would be out of character, and there does not seem to be a motive. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Joshua Cude joshua.c...@gmail.com wrote: Gotta run. I'll catch up in 3 or 4 days. Don't take my absence as a concession. Concession to what? We are truthseekers, not competitors. If you are an eternal septic, you will never be convinced. Albedo5 (who ran the septic forum on CompuServe) once said If a UFO landed on my front lawn and an alien came in and bit me on the arse, I'm not sure I would believe it. sigh T
RE: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Debbie, It is very frustrating that someone with an ID-capable detector didn't collect something. That is not a given. There could easily have been data collected but not disclosed. Celani may have been covering his tracks with what seems to be a persistent effort to explain to journalists on several occasions how he was frustrated to make this measurement - when in fact it could have been done, prior to - or following the main activity. All of Celani's recent papers have been on Pd-D systems. It will be interesting in the coming weeks to see if he should come out with something different. in response to what he may, or may not have learned. That goes for others as well. . oh, it was just a lucky guess g Jones
[Vo]:Experts have concerns about an upcoming Wiley physics textbook
Here is a letter I just sent to four editors at Wiley, with a copy to Steve Krivit. I suppose Krivit may not be pleased with it. Let me explain some of the background below the message -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To Author Services Editors -- I do not know the right person to address this to. I would appreciate it if one of you would forward this message. I recently attended the 16th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Chennai, India, February 6 -11, 2011. “Condensed Matter Nuclear Science” is another name for cold fusion, also known as the Fleischmann-Pons effect. During this conference, Stephen Krivit (http://www.newenergytimes.com/) announced that Wiley has commissioned him to write a textbook on cold fusion. This raised some concerns among experts in the field. Krivit has made valuable contributions by editing technical compilations. He and Marwan did a superb job co-editing the Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook (American Chem. Soc. and Oxford U. Press). He has written non-technical journalistic reports, and with the help of scientists he has written semi-technical articles for the general public. If his plan is to farm out textbook chapters to scientists, it should go well. However, he gave the impression he is planning to write the material himself. He is not qualified to do this. He refused to discuss his plans with the scientists at the conference, so they do not know what he and Wiley intend to do. Most of the leading experts were there at the conference, and some offered to contribute or assist. He rebuffed their offers rather rudely, which left everyone wondering who, if anyone, he intends to work with. One of the professors at the conference pointed out that writing a textbook chapter is the culmination of years of effort. A textbook author must: - Have a professional scientific background - Perform the experiment - Teach university students about the experiment for several semesters - Use the class notes and experience teaching to write the chapter Krivit does not meet any of these criteria. To be blunt, he sometimes makes amateur mistakes when describing technical issues. The experts fear that if he writes the text, the book may have many errors and misrepresentations. If your plan is to have professional scientists write this textbook, with Krivit coordinating and editing, then I am sure everyone in the field will welcome this contribution. Sincerely, Jed Rothwell Librarian, http://lenr-canr.org/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This is self-explanatory. But let me add a few details that will, perhaps, make it clearer why I sent this message. I would not normally do such a thing, because it is none of my business and I do not care what Krivit or anyone else does with his time, or what Wiley plans to do. In this case, however, I along with several other people at the conference got the impression that Krivit is either crazy, or he is Up To Something Nefarious. Let me explain, and let me again emphasize that this illustrates that if you had the comedy movie rights to cold fusion you could earn millions. Krivit explained first that he has been to visit Richard Garwin, who is not such a bad apple after all, and might be helpful to the field. Then he said he has been commissioned to write a textbook on cold fusion by Wiley. This is a prestigious company and it is highly unlikely they would commission a technical volume from someone who does not understand exponential notation, so the listeners began to suspect that the two events might be connected. Garwin might have put Wiley up to this. We do not trust Garwin's motives. We suppose this is a plan to hatch Taubes II, attacking researchers in the field, and claiming that cold fusion is not fusion but the researchers are conspiring and publishing fake data to make people think it is. In this message I describe Krivit's behavior as rather rude. That is putting it mildly. just after his announcement I went up to him and asked do you have the authors lined up? Who are you going to farm the chapters out to? He turned away so I tapped him on this shoulder and repeated the question. He stalked off, as if I did not exist. Come to think of it, he did not say a word to me during the entire conference. I did not attach any importance to this. In this field one gets used to moody behavior and eccentric people. However, it turns out that he pulled this stunt with several scientists as well. McKubre, naturally, but also several that Krivit has not attacked in his webpage. Or at least, not yet. One of them, who assumed he was on good terms, asked, Do you have outline for this textbook yet? Krivit barked back: Are you talking to me?! The conversation went downhill from there. The scientist gathers he does not have an outline yet. Asking around, it seems that he insulted, alienated or ignored just about every person who is qualified to write a chapter in a textbook. He has not asked anyone I know to write a
Re: [Vo]:Experts have concerns about an upcoming Wiley physics textbook
He certainly could qualify for this to some degree: http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Brand/id-9.html T
[Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL
The city of Madison, and the rest of the state of Wisconsin is experiencing something akin to its own Cairo, Egypt, moment. It's happening right now. http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2 It is now day three of messy, raunchy, ear splitting loud, state-wide protesting. Peaceful pandemonium has been unleashed out on the streets and within the state capital building. It's also known as democracy. Private unions of all walks have gathered to protest in unison against republican governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill. Teachers who called in sick brought students to the state capital to show them how democracy works, such as when an unjust bill attempts to ram something through legislature without any discussion on the matter, from the very individuals who would be most affected by the changes. It's a repair bill which includes provisions which would strip public employees of the right to bargain collectively, a right that has been in place for fifty years. If the bill passes as-is it would essentially reverse fifty years of the right to sit down at a bargaining table and negotiate terms. The state of Wisconsin (and some other states) are experiencing so much turmoil that it is finally getting national coverage. Everybody has been heading to our state capital to protest against the plan to do away with the right to bargain collectively. I haven't seen this caliber of political protesting erupt onto the streets and into the state capital since the 1960s. I never thought I'd see this amount of protesting again in my life time. Where are my bell bottom pants, my flower shirts and love beads when I need them. Today, Thursday, was the day when the Wisconsin state senators were to be in session. Senators, democratic republican were to vote yes or no to Scott Walker's bill, as-is. I suspect many protestors felt like it was a hopeless situation. Everyone knew that the republican dominated legislature had enough votes to get their way - to remove collective bargaining. But that didn't stop protesters and the sympathetic from filling the capital building for the past three days straight. The halls have been filed with endless shouts and chanting - noise that never stopped. The building was packed with those wishing to have their voice heard. Suddenly, the unexpected happened. I was in the capital building video recording events when an even louder uproar reverberated through the halls of the capital building. We were informed of the fact that 16 Wisconsin state senators -- 14 who were Democrats (two that weren't) failed to show up to vote on the republican rammed bill. Sixteen State senators revolted. They went AWOL. They essentially stated they would NOT VOTE on the provisions of the bill as-as. They were conspicuously absent because the repair bill included the provision to destroy the right to bargain collectively. The provision has absolutely nothing to do with repairing the state deficit, and that's what most of the protesting is all about. Incredulously, republicans who continue to back the bill as-is continue to claim that the protesting is simply about the lack of money that won't be doled out. They continue to side-step the real issue, what the protesting is really all about. Incidentally, from the Wheeler Report, here are a couple of statements from the AWOL senators. This one from Senator Taylor: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/February11/0217/0217taylor.pdf Please note that the location the letter had been sent from is currently: (UNKNOWN) ... and another official statement from missing senator, Senator Jauch: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/February11/0217/0217jauch.pdf We suspect a few of these rogue senators may be hiding out in a neighboring state, Illinois, right now - maybe Rockford. They left the borders of Wisconsin so that they can't be picked up by state troopers (which Scott Walker threatened to do) and forcefully brought back to senate floor to complete the vote. We are hoping that enough of the remaining republican senate members (a few which we have been told might be waffling just a little) will finally get the idea that perhaps this notion of destroying a fifty year tradition pertaining to the right to bargain collectively may not be such a good idea after all. Maybe they will finally begin to wonder: What does removing the right to bargain collectively have to do with repairing the state budget. All that public employees are asking for is the right to sit at the negotiation table, just like we always have done for the past 50 years. Final Comment: As previously mentioned, the reason I have posted this seemingly off topic message here is the fact that it is not entirely off topic as one might think. I doubt we'd all be in as bad a mess we are currently experiencing if it wasn't for the fact that Wall Street hired had some very naughty white collar hoodlums who stole from the
[Vo]:A note from Biberian about the biological transmutation session
Bear with me on this one. Funny how - when you are focused on LENR, the typical National Geographic animal story begins to looks like anomalous energy. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/110217-bears-hibernation-war m-sleep-animals-science/ . juxtaposed against: Anomalous Heat Generation during Hydrogenation of Carbon (Phenanthrene) Mizuno, T. and S. Sawada ICCF-14 http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTanomaloushb.pdf Of course, Mizuno got his Phenanthrene from coal tar, which is a concentrated source for it - but it is a common organic ring structure found in plant life all over the world. Phenanthrene is a pigment with bluish fluorescence. It is found in a number of fluorescent insects, such a butterflies. I cannot find a citation - or evidence that it is found in the Monarch species specifically - but these fragile flyers travel between 50-100 miles a day for up to two months to complete a yearly migration of thousands of miles. Mizuno finds 12C - 13C. Larsen focused on 14N -15N. Both would seem more likely in biology than heavy metal transmutations. Jed Rothwell wrote: The Biological Transmutation meeting of Tuesday went extremely well with almost 300 students attending. A program is already on its way too look at the Mn-55+D-2 = Fe-57 experiments of Vysotskii.
Re: [Vo]:A note from Biberian about the biological transmutation session
But the good news: http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=387067CategoryId=13003 T
Re: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL
Off topic or not, thanks for the vivid eye-witness report. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL
Yes, this is wonderful! I hope democracy erupts freely at all levels in our society. Rich On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 7:40 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Off topic or not, thanks for the vivid eye-witness report. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: According to Celani, observers were not allowed into the room until the experiment began to work: The device did not work at first. He and others were waiting impatiently in a room next to the room with the device. I don't think he said they were not allowed. He didn't happen to be there. He and the others had been waiting for a long time, and they were grousing (he told me). I think he said that out of the 50 people only 10 or so could look at the thing up close at one time. I don't know why. Small room? To prevent crowding? Maybe you can tell from the video . . . Levi and the others from U. Bologna were there from start to finish of this test, and the other tests and calibrations. Notice in the update he sent to me today, he refers to this as a wonderful device. I think he is pretty much convinced it is real, despite his complaints about the test and the fact that Rossi prevented him from taking a spectrum. Melich and I are also pretty much convinced. Not 100%. Celani says that people in Italy have been aware of Rossi's claims for about two years, and several groups are working to replicate. Some openly, and some incognito. I doubt they are getting any cooperation from Rossi. My impression is that after the demo, some of them went into high gear. If one of them figures out what the 2 magic elements are, Rossi's intellectual property will be in jeopardy. And speaking of Jeopardy How you like them apples, carbon-based life-forms? As Ken Jennings put it, I for one welcome our new computer overlords. See: http://live.washingtonpost.com/jeopardy-ken-jennings.html (great interview) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/17/AR2011021701591.html - Jed
RE: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL
I forgot to post my You Tube channel account: I have downloaded countless videos of the capital protests from Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. I plan on attending Friday's demonstrations as well. Crowds have gotten bigger each day. Tens and thousands are now marching. Check out: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrionworksVideos The outcome is still frighteningly uncertain. In the end, we may still lose the vote. We may still lose the right to bargain collectively. But we organized with only a day's notice. Within a day we organized and started fighting back. And some are now finally beginning to listen to what the real issues are. PS: Power to Rossi. and Mills too. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzlec.com/orionworks From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 6:26 PM To: Vortex Subject: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL The city of Madison, and the rest of the state of Wisconsin is experiencing something akin to its own Cairo, Egypt, moment. It's happening right now. http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2 It is now day three of messy, raunchy, ear splitting loud, state-wide protesting. Peaceful pandemonium has been unleashed out on the streets and within the state capital building. It's also known as democracy. Private unions of all walks have gathered to protest in unison against republican governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill. Teachers who called in sick brought students to the state capital to show them how democracy works, such as when an unjust bill attempts to ram something through legislature without any discussion on the matter, from the very individuals who would be most affected by the changes. It's a repair bill which includes provisions which would strip public employees of the right to bargain collectively, a right that has been in place for fifty years. If the bill passes as-is it would essentially reverse fifty years of the right to sit down at a bargaining table and negotiate terms. The state of Wisconsin (and some other states) are experiencing so much turmoil that it is finally getting national coverage. Everybody has been heading to our state capital to protest against the plan to do away with the right to bargain collectively. I haven't seen this caliber of political protesting erupt onto the streets and into the state capital since the 1960s. I never thought I'd see this amount of protesting again in my life time. Where are my bell bottom pants, my flower shirts and love beads when I need them. Today, Thursday, was the day when the Wisconsin state senators were to be in session. Senators, democratic republican were to vote yes or no to Scott Walker's bill, as-is. I suspect many protestors felt like it was a hopeless situation. Everyone knew that the republican dominated legislature had enough votes to get their way - to remove collective bargaining. But that didn't stop protesters and the sympathetic from filling the capital building for the past three days straight. The halls have been filed with endless shouts and chanting - noise that never stopped. The building was packed with those wishing to have their voice heard. Suddenly, the unexpected happened. I was in the capital building video recording events when an even louder uproar reverberated through the halls of the capital building. We were informed of the fact that 16 Wisconsin state senators -- 14 who were Democrats (two that weren't) failed to show up to vote on the republican rammed bill. Sixteen State senators revolted. They went AWOL. They essentially stated they would NOT VOTE on the provisions of the bill as-as. They were conspicuously absent because the repair bill included the provision to destroy the right to bargain collectively. The provision has absolutely nothing to do with repairing the state deficit, and that's what most of the protesting is all about. Incredulously, republicans who continue to back the bill as-is continue to claim that the protesting is simply about the lack of money that won't be doled out. They continue to side-step the real issue, what the protesting is really all about. Incidentally, from the Wheeler Report, here are a couple of statements from the AWOL senators. This one from Senator Taylor: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/February11/0217/0217taylor.pdf Please note that the location the letter had been sent from is currently: (UNKNOWN) ... and another official statement from missing senator, Senator Jauch: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/February11/0217/0217jauch.pdf We suspect a few of these rogue senators may be hiding out in a neighboring state, Illinois, right now - maybe Rockford. They left the borders of Wisconsin so that they can't be picked up by state troopers (which Scott
Re: [Vo]:Revised version Celani reports on gamma emission from Rossi device
Jed said, Notice in the update he [ Celani ] sent to me today, he refers to this as a wonderful device. I think he is pretty much convinced it is real, despite his complaints about the test and the fact that Rossi prevented him from taking a [ gamma ] spectrum. Melich and I are also pretty much convinced. Not 100%. Celani says that people in Italy have been aware of Rossi's claims for about two years, and several groups are working to replicate. Some openly, and some incognito. I doubt they are getting any cooperation from Rossi. My impression is that after the demo, some of them went into high gear. If one of them figures out what the 2 magic elements are, Rossi's intellectual property will be in jeopardy. I'm more on the skeptical side of these assessments, and am glad to appreciate the candid sharings. Happily, Rich Murray
RE: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL
I've uploaded tons of video clips so it's a bid daunting. You Tube is still processing them. I haven't had time to organize them. For a quick view of inside the capital I would recommend the following clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S3f_3GWoqY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S3f_3GWoqYfeature=related feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOBGggVxn44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOBGggVxn44feature=related feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpGirjnXytM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0VPpPpQwrw Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:39 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL I forgot to post my You Tube channel account: I have downloaded countless videos of the capital protests from Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. I plan on attending Friday's demonstrations as well. Crowds have gotten bigger each day. Tens and thousands are now marching. Check out: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrionworksVideos The outcome is still frighteningly uncertain. In the end, we may still lose the vote. We may still lose the right to bargain collectively. But we organized with only a day's notice. Within a day we organized and started fighting back. And some are now finally beginning to listen to what the real issues are. PS: Power to Rossi. and Mills too. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzlec.com/orionworks From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 6:26 PM To: Vortex Subject: [Vo]:OT (But Not Entirely) - Wisconsin Public Employees Continue Protesting. State Senators AWOL The city of Madison, and the rest of the state of Wisconsin is experiencing something akin to its own Cairo, Egypt, moment. It's happening right now. http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2 It is now day three of messy, raunchy, ear splitting loud, state-wide protesting. Peaceful pandemonium has been unleashed out on the streets and within the state capital building. It's also known as democracy. Private unions of all walks have gathered to protest in unison against republican governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill. Teachers who called in sick brought students to the state capital to show them how democracy works, such as when an unjust bill attempts to ram something through legislature without any discussion on the matter, from the very individuals who would be most affected by the changes. It's a repair bill which includes provisions which would strip public employees of the right to bargain collectively, a right that has been in place for fifty years. If the bill passes as-is it would essentially reverse fifty years of the right to sit down at a bargaining table and negotiate terms. The state of Wisconsin (and some other states) are experiencing so much turmoil that it is finally getting national coverage. Everybody has been heading to our state capital to protest against the plan to do away with the right to bargain collectively. I haven't seen this caliber of political protesting erupt onto the streets and into the state capital since the 1960s. I never thought I'd see this amount of protesting again in my life time. Where are my bell bottom pants, my flower shirts and love beads when I need them. Today, Thursday, was the day when the Wisconsin state senators were to be in session. Senators, democratic republican were to vote yes or no to Scott Walker's bill, as-is. I suspect many protestors felt like it was a hopeless situation. Everyone knew that the republican dominated legislature had enough votes to get their way - to remove collective bargaining. But that didn't stop protesters and the sympathetic from filling the capital building for the past three days straight. The halls have been filed with endless shouts and chanting - noise that never stopped. The building was packed with those wishing to have their voice heard. Suddenly, the unexpected happened. I was in the capital building video recording events when an even louder uproar reverberated through the halls of the capital building. We were informed of the fact that 16 Wisconsin state senators -- 14 who were Democrats (two that weren't) failed to show up to vote on the republican rammed bill. Sixteen State senators revolted. They went AWOL. They essentially stated they would NOT VOTE on the provisions of the bill as-as. They were conspicuously absent because the repair bill included the provision to destroy the right to bargain collectively. The provision has absolutely nothing to do with repairing the state deficit, and that's what most of the protesting is all about. Incredulously,
