Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 23:42:18 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] So, my ultimate desire is to understand exactly how excess energy is stored within a nucleus. A single proton does not have the ability to perform that function under normal conditions. When fusion occurs, gammas are emitted by some mechanism from the nuclear energy storage process. Classical ideas would suggest that the energy might be stored in a process somewhat like that of a pair of balls connected by a spring which in this case would simulate the strong force. The fact that nuclei often have neutron cross sections with sharp peaks in the energy of the neutron, hints IMO that nuclei have rigid structures. However much like a box of apples, different arrangements are possible. Each different arrangement has its own energy level, but there is a (slight) barrier to overcome in changing between arrangements, e.g. an apple, once having settled into the dip between other apples needs a slight nudge to get it over it's nearest neighbor into the next dip. The ZPE can however provide the energy required to push a nucleon into the next dip, provided that in so doing the nucleus reaches a lower energy level such that the loan from the Bank of Heisenberg is rapidly repaid. Perhaps more accurately, if there is no lower position, then the apple simply roles back to it's original spot, returning the borrowed energy during the process. When a neutron from outside enters the nucleus, many other apples get shifted around, and it takes a while for them all to settle down again, each shift releasing a gamma photon. [snip] I ask these somewhat silly sounding questions because it frequently occurs that a proposed reaction is questioned because of a concern for the conservation of energy and momentum during the fusion process. I seek a way to buy time during the event which might be used to slowly absorb the high level of energy that is ultimately released by fusion. You won't be buying much time. Particle emission usually happens in about 1E-23 seconds, and gamma emission on the order of about 1E-17 seconds, except when a so called meta-stable state is achieved. For instance, a two body collision can always be shown to conserve momentum and energy as long as no energy is released during the collision and they remain attached. Then, the trick is to figure out how to extract that excess energy without significantly upsetting the center of mass of the initial pair. If the energy can be taken over a long enough period of time, then interesting things happen. Indeed if. Another question is why can't a proton have additional mass that exists in the form of kinetic energy of its constituent quarks? I guess this is equivalent of asking whether or not a proton can have a temperature. :-) Only when it has a fever. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
three body forces are important. The shell model and magic numbers fall out of tensor and three-nucleon forces theoryhttp://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2t=4057 http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/59]Viewpoint Pushing Back the Frontier of Stability On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:50 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 23:42:18 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] So, my ultimate desire is to understand exactly how excess energy is stored within a nucleus. A single proton does not have the ability to perform that function under normal conditions. When fusion occurs, gammas are emitted by some mechanism from the nuclear energy storage process. Classical ideas would suggest that the energy might be stored in a process somewhat like that of a pair of balls connected by a spring which in this case would simulate the strong force. The fact that nuclei often have neutron cross sections with sharp peaks in the energy of the neutron, hints IMO that nuclei have rigid structures. However much like a box of apples, different arrangements are possible. Each different arrangement has its own energy level, but there is a (slight) barrier to overcome in changing between arrangements, e.g. an apple, once having settled into the dip between other apples needs a slight nudge to get it over it's nearest neighbor into the next dip. The ZPE can however provide the energy required to push a nucleon into the next dip, provided that in so doing the nucleus reaches a lower energy level such that the loan from the Bank of Heisenberg is rapidly repaid. Perhaps more accurately, if there is no lower position, then the apple simply roles back to it's original spot, returning the borrowed energy during the process. When a neutron from outside enters the nucleus, many other apples get shifted around, and it takes a while for them all to settle down again, each shift releasing a gamma photon. [snip] I ask these somewhat silly sounding questions because it frequently occurs that a proposed reaction is questioned because of a concern for the conservation of energy and momentum during the fusion process. I seek a way to buy time during the event which might be used to slowly absorb the high level of energy that is ultimately released by fusion. You won't be buying much time. Particle emission usually happens in about 1E-23 seconds, and gamma emission on the order of about 1E-17 seconds, except when a so called meta-stable state is achieved. For instance, a two body collision can always be shown to conserve momentum and energy as long as no energy is released during the collision and they remain attached. Then, the trick is to figure out how to extract that excess energy without significantly upsetting the center of mass of the initial pair. If the energy can be taken over a long enough period of time, then interesting things happen. Indeed if. Another question is why can't a proton have additional mass that exists in the form of kinetic energy of its constituent quarks? I guess this is equivalent of asking whether or not a proton can have a temperature. :-) Only when it has a fever. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
sorry try this link: http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/59 On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: three body forces are important. The shell model and magic numbers fall out of tensor and three-nucleon forces theoryhttp://www.energyfromthorium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2t=4057 http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/59]Viewpoint Pushing Back the Frontier of Stability On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:50 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 23:42:18 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] So, my ultimate desire is to understand exactly how excess energy is stored within a nucleus. A single proton does not have the ability to perform that function under normal conditions. When fusion occurs, gammas are emitted by some mechanism from the nuclear energy storage process. Classical ideas would suggest that the energy might be stored in a process somewhat like that of a pair of balls connected by a spring which in this case would simulate the strong force. The fact that nuclei often have neutron cross sections with sharp peaks in the energy of the neutron, hints IMO that nuclei have rigid structures. However much like a box of apples, different arrangements are possible. Each different arrangement has its own energy level, but there is a (slight) barrier to overcome in changing between arrangements, e.g. an apple, once having settled into the dip between other apples needs a slight nudge to get it over it's nearest neighbor into the next dip. The ZPE can however provide the energy required to push a nucleon into the next dip, provided that in so doing the nucleus reaches a lower energy level such that the loan from the Bank of Heisenberg is rapidly repaid. Perhaps more accurately, if there is no lower position, then the apple simply roles back to it's original spot, returning the borrowed energy during the process. When a neutron from outside enters the nucleus, many other apples get shifted around, and it takes a while for them all to settle down again, each shift releasing a gamma photon. [snip] I ask these somewhat silly sounding questions because it frequently occurs that a proposed reaction is questioned because of a concern for the conservation of energy and momentum during the fusion process. I seek a way to buy time during the event which might be used to slowly absorb the high level of energy that is ultimately released by fusion. You won't be buying much time. Particle emission usually happens in about 1E-23 seconds, and gamma emission on the order of about 1E-17 seconds, except when a so called meta-stable state is achieved. For instance, a two body collision can always be shown to conserve momentum and energy as long as no energy is released during the collision and they remain attached. Then, the trick is to figure out how to extract that excess energy without significantly upsetting the center of mass of the initial pair. If the energy can be taken over a long enough period of time, then interesting things happen. Indeed if. Another question is why can't a proton have additional mass that exists in the form of kinetic energy of its constituent quarks? I guess this is equivalent of asking whether or not a proton can have a temperature. :-) Only when it has a fever. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]: Protons and Gammas
Earlier I was curious about electrons and how they might interact with photons. The final conclusion was that they can not originate photons without outside help and that they cannot totally absorb them. The Compton effect allows them to interact, but there must always be a photon leaving the site. I suspect that the same applies to a bare proton and an incoming gamma. Does anyone know of a condition where this is not true? Can a system consisting of entangled protons absorb gammas? The answer should be yes. Dave
Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 15:04:44 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Earlier I was curious about electrons and how they might interact with photons. The final conclusion was that they can not originate photons without outside help and that they cannot totally absorb them. The Compton effect allows them to interact, but there must always be a photon leaving the site. I suspect that the same applies to a bare proton and an incoming gamma. Does anyone know of a condition where this is not true? Can a system consisting of entangled protons absorb gammas? The answer should be yes. Dave There is no such thing as entanglement in the sense that it is commonly applied. I.e. there is nothing connecting entangled particles, and no information is passed between them, let alone instantaneously. Hence the answer to your question is no. However protons in a force field (and effectively all of them are) should be able to, provided that said field allows for exchange of momentum/angular momentum with whatever is on the other end of the field lines. (Entangled particle pairs have perfect correlation at birth). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas
OK Robin, I was making an attempt to consider the nucleus of an atom as a group of protons with the associated neutrons that allow for the absorption and emission of gammas. Perhaps I should have left the entangled part out of the discussion. So, my ultimate desire is to understand exactly how excess energy is stored within a nucleus. A single proton does not have the ability to perform that function under normal conditions. When fusion occurs, gammas are emitted by some mechanism from the nuclear energy storage process. Classical ideas would suggest that the energy might be stored in a process somewhat like that of a pair of balls connected by a spring which in this case would simulate the strong force. Energy could also be stored in a rotational motion. Either of these techniques should allow storage for a finite time before the emission of that excess energy. Also, it is not obvious how this energy should be quantized at such a high level. I ask these somewhat silly sounding questions because it frequently occurs that a proposed reaction is questioned because of a concern for the conservation of energy and momentum during the fusion process. I seek a way to buy time during the event which might be used to slowly absorb the high level of energy that is ultimately released by fusion. For instance, a two body collision can always be shown to conserve momentum and energy as long as no energy is released during the collision and they remain attached. Then, the trick is to figure out how to extract that excess energy without significantly upsetting the center of mass of the initial pair. If the energy can be taken over a long enough period of time, then interesting things happen. Another question is why can't a proton have additional mass that exists in the form of kinetic energy of its constituent quarks? I guess this is equivalent of asking whether or not a proton can have a temperature. :-) Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: Protons and Gammas In reply to David Roberson's message of Fri, 24 May 2013 15:04:44 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Earlier I was curious about electrons and how they might interact with photons. The final conclusion was that they can not originate photons without outside help and that they cannot totally absorb them. The Compton effect allows them to interact, but there must always be a photon leaving the site. I suspect that the same applies to a bare proton and an incoming gamma. Does anyone know of a condition where this is not true? Can a system consisting of entangled protons absorb gammas? The answer should be yes. Dave There is no such thing as entanglement in the sense that it is commonly applied. I.e. there is nothing connecting entangled particles, and no information is passed between them, let alone instantaneously. Hence the answer to your question is no. However protons in a force field (and effectively all of them are) should be able to, provided that said field allows for exchange of momentum/angular momentum with whatever is on the other end of the field lines. (Entangled particle pairs have perfect correlation at birth). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
