[Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
They're baaack part II. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7634641.stm Yes, yes, yes the megaphone of public office. Most of what they say is true. But guys, that's some fine silk you're wearing and you don't really need a cathedral to preach from as Christ did it in the open air. The land capital of the Anglicans is legendary. Oh and I don't care if two (three, four, whatever) guys, sheep, cat and dogs get married in the privacy of their own homes. Oh and tell you RC friends to stop fiddling with little boys too. Looks like the good ol' feudal day of church and state are back this time they've got G.d, the poor, the environment and maybe a little bit of veggie fascism thrown in and male bashing too. I'm just waiting for these guys to do some miracles, ol' Semtex Sentamu to turn that staff into a lightsabre and deflect laser beams and then 'yoda' Williams to use the force and levitate things. My advice - don't buy it. Let the market correct itself and then some light obvious regulation: No more interest only mortgages More deposits up front with mortgages More transparency (short selling would work then - move money from over inflated businesses to more deserving, wealth redistribution) Separate high street banks from investment and insurance Crisis what bloody crisis? The public is the tit being milked right or is that the golden goose?
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
From Remi Cornwall: They're baaack part II. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7634641.stm Yes, yes, yes the megaphone of public office. Most of what they say is true. But guys, that's some fine silk you're wearing and you don't really need a cathedral to preach from as Christ did it in the open air. The land capital of the Anglicans is legendary. Oh and I don't care if two (three, four, whatever) guys, sheep, cat and dogs get married in the privacy of their own homes. Oh and tell you RC friends to stop fiddling with little boys too. Looks like the good ol' feudal day of church and state are back this time they've got G.d, the poor, the environment and maybe a little bit of veggie fascism thrown in and male bashing too. I'm just waiting for these guys to do some miracles, ol' Semtex Sentamu to turn that staff into a lightsabre and deflect laser beams and then 'yoda' Williams to use the force and levitate things. My advice - don't buy it. Let the market correct itself and then some light obvious regulation: No more interest only mortgages More deposits up front with mortgages More transparency (short selling would work then - move money from over inflated businesses to more deserving, wealth redistribution) Separate high street banks from investment and insurance Crisis what bloody crisis? The public is the tit being milked right or is that the golden goose? I see you're back. Why am I not surprised. According to a recent proclamation you stated: * SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]:Here comes $500 oi SENT: Tue 9/23/2008 5:42 AM Tsck! Vegan f.ing cats. What about in a zoo? Vegan f.ing lions and tigers!? Non-competitive sport, decaffeinated coffee, alcohol free beer, non-penetrative sex (so the woman doesn't feel stabbed in the feminist sense), new men, 'obscene wealth' and on and on. I can't be bothered to argue with these lefty nutcases anymore. I love the American notion of the right to bear arms and form militias to depose a despotic regime. Lefties must learn that you can't force people; the victims will hide wealth and talent and then disappear. I won't be forced to take part in these nutball schemes. I guess that's why there is such a large expat community from Britain and Europe in general. Sickened and out of here. Not like vortex of the old days. No calibre of thinkers only 2 other righties and 2 right-of-centre people worth noticing on this list. 'unsubscribe' * You appear to have stated there are few thinkers of any caliber worth having a discussion with on Vortex. You then state you're out of here, and end the threat with an unsuccessful attempt at unsubscribing yourself. But of course here you are again, back with more Cornwall philosophy. What need does Vortex supply you with that appears to force you continue to subjecting yourself to its low standards? Have we become an addiction? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Talking of calibre, done anything worth recognising? Hold any positions in academia or industry? Walked the talk? What good works do you do? I'm not being confrontational, I'm just asking, right? Don't take it personally. -Original Message- From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 15:09 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... You appear to have stated there are few thinkers of any caliber worth having a discussion with on Vortex. You then state you're out of here, and end the threat with an unsuccessful attempt at unsubscribing yourself. But of course here you are again, back with more Cornwall philosophy. What need does Vortex supply you with that appears to force you continue to subjecting yourself to its low standards? Have we become an addiction? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
For those who have not been following the news and do not have a fixed opinion about the financial problems, let me add a bit of reality. The collapse of the mortgage market was the event that started the collapse but it was not the true cause. The big problem is the derivative market. These are bets between companies about which way various factors such as interest rates or the value of a security will change. For example, I might buy a basket of mortgages and at the same time buy a derivative such that I would be paid a fixed sum if the value of the mortgages dropped below a certain value. Options in the securities world are similar but are more closely regulated. The problem is that the number of these derivatives has increased to a huge amount, as high as 50 trillion depending to who makes the calculation. Because they do not have to be reported, it is impossible to know just how much money is at risk. When the value of mortgages went down, some companies were required to make good on bets that required payment if the value of mortgages would go down. Because of the size of the bet made by some companies, they can't pay and will go into bankruptcy. As a result, the company counting on this payment also can't pay its debts. As a result, a problem has spread throughout the system. The solution requires mortgages be priced higher and money be supplied to allow these bets to be paid without the company having to fold its tent. This is not a simple process and it will invite certain people to gain an advantage. The only issue is how much advantage will be allowed while actually solving the problem. The same people who made the mess are trying to gain all they can while the conservative Republicans and the Democrats are trying to limit the advantage. Of course, McCain is trying to undo the damage his past votes caused while looking like a reformer. Obama is trying to design the bailout so that the pain is more evenly shared. Congress is making its usual attempt to take the easiest path. The outcome will determine the future of many people including some who supported the policies that made the mess. For people who do not understand what is happening to make ignorant suggestions or to think nothing be done is extremely irresponsible. This is like telling people on a sinking ship not to get into a lifeboat because they think the ship can float will being filled with water. Too late, their ignorance is proven wrong. Fortunately, most people have been sense. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 4:56 AM, Remi Cornwall wrote: They're baaack part II. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7634641.stm Yes, yes, yes the megaphone of public office. Most of what they say is true. But guys, that's some fine silk you're wearing and you don't really need a cathedral to preach from as Christ did it in the open air. The land capital of the Anglicans is legendary. Oh and I don't care if two (three, four, whatever) guys, sheep, cat and dogs get married in the privacy of their own homes. Oh and tell you RC friends to stop fiddling with little boys too. Looks like the good ol' feudal day of church and state are back this time they've got G.d, the poor, the environment and maybe a little bit of veggie fascism thrown in and male bashing too. I'm just waiting for these guys to do some miracles, ol' Semtex Sentamu to turn that staff into a lightsabre and deflect laser beams and then 'yoda' Williams to use the force and levitate things. My advice - don't buy it. Let the market correct itself and then some light obvious regulation: No more interest only mortgages More deposits up front with mortgages More transparency (short selling would work then - move money from over inflated businesses to more deserving, wealth redistribution) Separate high street banks from investment and insurance Crisis what bloody crisis? The public is the tit being milked right or is that the golden goose?
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 6:56 AM, Remi Cornwall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No more interest only mortgages You might be interested to know that the interest only loans originated in the UK in the 80s. AAMOF my wife, a home mortgage underwriter, actually refers to them as a LIBOR, which is actually the acronym for London Interbank Offered Rate. So, the US actually copied the UK on these instruments. But we have created our own nooses. One of the deadly ones was stated income. And the 100% LTVs. Terry
RE: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Wow, the church stepping in, in a bid to get more bums on pews and to have 'faith'. This *problem is man-made*. Recessions caused by forces beyond man's control are regrettable; these would include crop blight, bad weather, pandemic disease etc. Yes the insurance industries are under much pressure from a decade of bad weather which may or may not be due to man-made global warming and other factors. The insurer, investment banker, hedge fund manager need to be *spreading their portfolio* and be **generating real wealth** in case it is called upon. The economy is in a mess and there are many *interlinking factors* not being helped by *man-made cock-ups*: under-regulation in some areas, over-regulation in others (say in regards to the price of fuel) or bad foreign policy starting expensive wars. Modelling such a non-linear system is a nightmare. However it is known that non-linear systems far from equilibrium will go into catastrophic behaviour - such as a market crash. The desire to give up understanding such a complicated system and appeal to faith is a childish atavistic cop-out, though tempting, hence the nostrums from the thuggish old left (eat the rich!) and anachronistic church (God will provide, I don't know how, but trust me). Simple measures like that suggested for the mortgage market (have means? have deposit? etc.), reserve banking or not hedging on a hedge helps keep that complicated, multi-variable system more simple in one sector of the economy at least. The complex financial instruments you speak of Ed were caused by the fashion for financial engineering. Mathematics seemed to perform miracles in science so why not mathematical economics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX5II-BJ8hI ? I think we need a Mrs Thatcher type plain and simple grocer's daughter (with a track record in controlling government spending to boot) to practice the common-sense measures of running the family grocery business or dime box saloon. Maybe. I would just hate a world with America in decline against the other power blocks, most of all an America not confident with itself self-flagellating and self loathing as your enemies want it. -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 16:11 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... For those who have not been following the news and do not have a fixed opinion about the financial problems, let me add a bit of reality. The collapse of the mortgage market was the event that started the collapse but it was not the true cause. The big problem is the derivative market. These are bets between companies about which way various factors such as interest rates or the value of a security will change. For example, I might buy a basket of mortgages and at the same time buy a derivative such that I would be paid a fixed sum if the value of the mortgages dropped below a certain value. Options in the securities world are similar but are more closely regulated. The problem is that the number of these derivatives has increased to a huge amount, as high as 50 trillion depending to who makes the calculation. Because they do not have to be reported, it is impossible to know just how much money is at risk. When the value of mortgages went down, some companies were required to make good on bets that required payment if the value of mortgages would go down. Because of the size of the bet made by some companies, they can't pay and will go into bankruptcy. As a result, the company counting on this payment also can't pay its debts. As a result, a problem has spread throughout the system. The solution requires mortgages be priced higher and money be supplied to allow these bets to be paid without the company having to fold its tent. This is not a simple process and it will invite certain people to gain an advantage. The only issue is how much advantage will be allowed while actually solving the problem. The same people who made the mess are trying to gain all they can while the conservative Republicans and the Democrats are trying to limit the advantage. Of course, McCain is trying to undo the damage his past votes caused while looking like a reformer. Obama is trying to design the bailout so that the pain is more evenly shared. Congress is making its usual attempt to take the easiest path. The outcome will determine the future of many people including some who supported the policies that made the mess. For people who do not understand what is happening to make ignorant suggestions or to think nothing be done is extremely irresponsible. This is like telling people on a sinking ship not to get into a lifeboat because they think the ship can float will being filled with water. Too late, their ignorance is proven wrong. Fortunately, most people have been sense. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 4:56 AM, Remi Cornwall wrote
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I can't help but wonder if that isn't a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in. I'm constantly receiving credit card offers in the mail, typically two or three a week. They only have one goal: To get me in debt with them. Unfortunately, too many people have done just that. It's absolutely disgusting. I wish there was better regulation of the industry. We will pay for this mess. Answering Remi's prior question, I hold no position in industry or academia. Walking the talk is a highly subjective matter. Having done anything worth recognizing is also a highly subjective matter. And what good works have I personally done? Also highly subjective. It would seem that the older I've gotten, the more I've come to a personal realization that there is so much I don't know, or understand. But it's a start. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
On Sep 25, 2008, at 11:51 AM, OrionWorks wrote: Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I can't help but wonder if that isn't a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in. I'm constantly receiving credit card offers in the mail, typically two or three a week. They only have one goal: To get me in debt with them. Unfortunately, too many people have done just that. It's absolutely disgusting. I wish there was better regulation of the industry. We will pay for this mess. Indeed we will. As the system melts down, people will not have back-up savings to help them through the healing process. As a result, even more pain will be experienced. The only way the government can bail out the losers is to borrow or print money. This will cause interest rates to rise and inflation. Consequently, more foreclosures and an increase in the price of food will result. The pain will be widespread. We are looking at the beginning of a revolution in the US. We have been taught to believe our present system is the best in the world. When the people who have accepted this idea start to feel the pain, we will see a big change. Being a liberal will not look so bad. Pain is much more effective than argument or logic. Meanwhile, rest of us need to find a safe cave. Ed Answering Remi's prior question, I hold no position in industry or academia. Walking the talk is a highly subjective matter. Having done anything worth recognizing is also a highly subjective matter. And what good works have I personally done? Also highly subjective. It would seem that the older I've gotten, the more I've come to a personal realization that there is so much I don't know, or understand. But it's a start. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
I asked a friend once: How do things get their price? The price of something is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. A false economy of credit is a house of cards. To me, in my simple way of thinking, money must ultimately come down to some form of barter for labour or resources. I just have the feeling that there are too many parasites, speculators, lifestyle gurus, interior designers, flim-flam and not enough people being rewarded for real work such as manufacture or agriculture - too much service sector. That bartering provides a means of living on the planet, right, at its most fundamental level? I break a leg then I need a medic, I need some food then I need a farmer, I need a house then I need a builder. I give something in return they decide if they need it or not. What happens when two pop music starlets need each other? - on a cruise ship imagine the cry, someone is about to suffer a major rhythm defect, is there a pop musician in the house? In times of economic collapse people barter skills or cigarettes. There's then a whole level of life's luxuries that we are willing to pay for - trans fatty acid cream buns, big SUVS, keeping up with the neighbours, sports stars or movie stars that inherently have no value. Therein lies the problem of credit card applications dropping on the doormat. -Original Message- From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 18:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I can't help but wonder if that isn't a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in. I'm constantly receiving credit card offers in the mail, typically two or three a week. They only have one goal: To get me in debt with them. Unfortunately, too many people have done just that. It's absolutely disgusting. I wish there was better regulation of the industry. We will pay for this mess. Answering Remi's prior question, I hold no position in industry or academia. Walking the talk is a highly subjective matter. Having done anything worth recognizing is also a highly subjective matter. And what good works have I personally done? Also highly subjective. It would seem that the older I've gotten, the more I've come to a personal realization that there is so much I don't know, or understand. But it's a start. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Actually, credit is essential in an active economy. For example, suppose I want to start a business making widgets. Before I can get any income from their sale, I have to buy the machinery and hire people. This takes money up front, which must be borrowed. Once again, this is not rocket science. The problem is not the use of credit, it is the use of too much credit of the wrong kind. Normally the system is self regulating based on a bank taking responsibility for the loan and its repayment. This system broke down because a corrupt system was allow to grow in the US, mainly by the Bush administration. Again, this is a matter of fact, not opinion or liberal propaganda. Unless people acknowledge reality, there is no hope for a correction. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Remi Cornwall wrote: I asked a friend once: How do things get their price? The price of something is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. A false economy of credit is a house of cards. To me, in my simple way of thinking, money must ultimately come down to some form of barter for labour or resources. I just have the feeling that there are too many parasites, speculators, lifestyle gurus, interior designers, flim-flam and not enough people being rewarded for real work such as manufacture or agriculture - too much service sector. That bartering provides a means of living on the planet, right, at its most fundamental level? I break a leg then I need a medic, I need some food then I need a farmer, I need a house then I need a builder. I give something in return they decide if they need it or not. What happens when two pop music starlets need each other? - on a cruise ship imagine the cry, someone is about to suffer a major rhythm defect, is there a pop musician in the house? In times of economic collapse people barter skills or cigarettes. There's then a whole level of life's luxuries that we are willing to pay for - trans fatty acid cream buns, big SUVS, keeping up with the neighbours, sports stars or movie stars that inherently have no value. Therein lies the problem of credit card applications dropping on the doormat. -Original Message- From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 18:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I can't help but wonder if that isn't a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in. I'm constantly receiving credit card offers in the mail, typically two or three a week. They only have one goal: To get me in debt with them. Unfortunately, too many people have done just that. It's absolutely disgusting. I wish there was better regulation of the industry. We will pay for this mess. Answering Remi's prior question, I hold no position in industry or academia. Walking the talk is a highly subjective matter. Having done anything worth recognizing is also a highly subjective matter. And what good works have I personally done? Also highly subjective. It would seem that the older I've gotten, the more I've come to a personal realization that there is so much I don't know, or understand. But it's a start. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Of course Ed! That's the normal business cycle. But the concept has been corrupted by people never wanting to repay or ultimately give value. I am sickened. For the years you and I have done good work (I'm ok now by the way for funding) and suggested to state and market that they have the vision to invest in things which generate wealth. The state let us down with NIH because big science was calling all the shots, whilst the market went after dotcom, Britney's tits and other flim-flam. It's the calibre of the people making these decisions left or right, though Bush may have been dropped on his head after the midwife delivered him. It all reminds of the film The Fall of the Roman Empire with, was it Sophia Loren or Rachel Welch? You know the scene at the end with the big hand icon and then the general saying Who will be Emperor of the Roman Empire? and then naming a price. Whoever gets it, it's a poisoned chalice... -Original Message- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 19:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Actually, credit is essential in an active economy. For example, suppose I want to start a business making widgets. Before I can get any income from their sale, I have to buy the machinery and hire people. This takes money up front, which must be borrowed. Once again, this is not rocket science. The problem is not the use of credit, it is the use of too much credit of the wrong kind. Normally the system is self regulating based on a bank taking responsibility for the loan and its repayment. This system broke down because a corrupt system was allow to grow in the US, mainly by the Bush administration. Again, this is a matter of fact, not opinion or liberal propaganda. Unless people acknowledge reality, there is no hope for a correction. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Remi Cornwall wrote: I asked a friend once: How do things get their price? The price of something is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. A false economy of credit is a house of cards. To me, in my simple way of thinking, money must ultimately come down to some form of barter for labour or resources. I just have the feeling that there are too many parasites, speculators, lifestyle gurus, interior designers, flim-flam and not enough people being rewarded for real work such as manufacture or agriculture - too much service sector. That bartering provides a means of living on the planet, right, at its most fundamental level? I break a leg then I need a medic, I need some food then I need a farmer, I need a house then I need a builder. I give something in return they decide if they need it or not. What happens when two pop music starlets need each other? - on a cruise ship imagine the cry, someone is about to suffer a major rhythm defect, is there a pop musician in the house? In times of economic collapse people barter skills or cigarettes. There's then a whole level of life's luxuries that we are willing to pay for - trans fatty acid cream buns, big SUVS, keeping up with the neighbours, sports stars or movie stars that inherently have no value. Therein lies the problem of credit card applications dropping on the doormat. -Original Message- From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 18:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I can't help but wonder if that isn't a significant contributing factor to the mess we are in. I'm constantly receiving credit card offers in the mail, typically two or three a week. They only have one goal: To get me in debt with them. Unfortunately, too many people have done just that. It's absolutely disgusting. I wish there was better regulation of the industry. We will pay for this mess. Answering Remi's prior question, I hold no position in industry or academia. Walking the talk is a highly subjective matter. Having done anything worth recognizing is also a highly subjective matter. And what good works have I personally done? Also highly subjective. It would seem that the older I've gotten, the more I've come to a personal realization that there is so much I don't know, or understand. But it's a start. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
Credit and confidence are essential for the creation of wealth. As Ed points out credit is needed to buy the menas for future production, whether of crops or goods. Confidence, or trust, is essential that the loan will be repaid. Whether implemented by barter, money, or credit cards, the essential structure is the same. Wealth is not in the tokensof exchange but in the created goods -- that the farmer can get seed and machinery to harvest the crops before the harvest occurs. The trap is that money itself can become a commodity, to be bought and sold without actual labor. One is again playing with confidence and its opposite, risk. The bank takes a risk that the loan will not be repaid, and carges a fee, called interest, for assuming the risk. In a way we all play the confidence game. As FDR said we only need to fear itself, the loss of confidence, which disrupts the mutual trust on which commerce depends. The finger of greed points in every direction. We want more than we give. Wealth is not a matter of how much we have, but how little we need. A gift of the industrial age is that essentials for many can be produced by labor of fewer and fewer. A curse of the industrial age is that fewer and fewer havethe satisfaction of meaningful contributions to others. Then the human urges for status play out in trivia. The global credit system should not be blamed on Bush. It is created by us all. The system dynamics is so complex that we individually and collectively do not really understand it, like the weather, climate, or a Mandelbrot Set. We get aircraft safety by analyzing crashes. Adjustments and controls will be necessary to recover fromt the present situation without choking off the dynamics of the creation of wealth. Fundmentally, it depends on energy, the energy of human intelligence, and the physical energy to do work of all kinds. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Actually, credit is essential in an active economy. For example, suppose I want to start a business making widgets. Before I can get any income from their sale, I have to buy the machinery and hire people. This takes money up front, which must be borrowed. Once again, this is not rocket science. The problem is not the use of credit, it is the use of too much credit of the wrong kind. Normally the system is self regulating based on a bank taking responsibility for the loan and its repayment. This system broke down because a corrupt system was allow to grow in the US, mainly by the Bush administration. Again, this is a matter of fact, not opinion or liberal propaganda. Unless people acknowledge reality, there is no hope for a correction. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Remi Cornwall wrote: I asked a friend once: How do things get their price? The price of something is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. A false economy of credit is a house of cards. To me, in my simple way of thinking, money must ultimately come down to some form of barter for labour or resources. I just have the feeling that there are too many parasites, speculators, lifestyle gurus, interior designers, flim-flam and not enough people being rewarded for real work such as manufacture or agriculture - too much service sector. That bartering provides a means of living on the planet, right, at its most fundamental level? I break a leg then I need a medic, I need some food then I need a farmer, I need a house then I need a builder. I give something in return they decide if they need it or not. What happens when two pop music starlets need each other? - on a cruise ship imagine the cry, someone is about to suffer a major rhythm defect, is there a pop musician in the house? In times of economic collapse people barter skills or cigarettes. There's then a whole level of life's luxuries that we are willing to pay for - trans fatty acid cream buns, big SUVS, keeping up with the neighbours, sports stars or movie stars that inherently have no value. Therein lies the problem of credit card applications dropping on the doormat. -Original Message- From: OrionWorks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 September 2008 18:52 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Sobering and provoking thoughts from Remi, Ed, and Terry. Gives me the shudders. I find it curious that the consumer credit card industry doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this mess, or perhaps I missed that aspect. Considering the huge credit card debt load that our population has accumulated over the years, the practice of enticing customers to borrow more and more money to the point that a significant portion of the population is now barely capable of making payments on the principal, I
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
I blame Bush and his attitude because it was the philosophy he supported that removed the necessary controls from the credit market. There is nothing mysterious or difficult to understand about what will happen when children are allowed to do anything they want. Many people pointed out that such a system could not last. The outcome was so obvious that a person had to wonder about the sanity and honesty of the players. However, the no-nothing ideologues and the people who made money fought any change. Now they and the rest of us will pay the price of this ignorance and greed. The situation is very simple and does not require deep analysis now that the predicted consequences have been made clear. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 2:47 PM, Mike Carrell wrote: Credit and confidence are essential for the creation of wealth. As Ed points out credit is needed to buy the menas for future production, whether of crops or goods. Confidence, or trust, is essential that the loan will be repaid. Whether implemented by barter, money, or credit cards, the essential structure is the same. Wealth is not in the tokensof exchange but in the created goods -- that the farmer can get seed and machinery to harvest the crops before the harvest occurs. The trap is that money itself can become a commodity, to be bought and sold without actual labor. One is again playing with confidence and its opposite, risk. The bank takes a risk that the loan will not be repaid, and carges a fee, called interest, for assuming the risk. In a way we all play the confidence game. As FDR said we only need to fear itself, the loss of confidence, which disrupts the mutual trust on which commerce depends. The finger of greed points in every direction. We want more than we give. Wealth is not a matter of how much we have, but how little we need. A gift of the industrial age is that essentials for many can be produced by labor of fewer and fewer. A curse of the industrial age is that fewer and fewer havethe satisfaction of meaningful contributions to others. Then the human urges for status play out in trivia. The global credit system should not be blamed on Bush. It is created by us all. The system dynamics is so complex that we individually and collectively do not really understand it, like the weather, climate, or a Mandelbrot Set. We get aircraft safety by analyzing crashes. Adjustments and controls will be necessary to recover fromt the present situation without choking off the dynamics of the creation of wealth. Fundmentally, it depends on energy, the energy of human intelligence, and the physical energy to do work of all kinds. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo... Actually, credit is essential in an active economy. For example, suppose I want to start a business making widgets. Before I can get any income from their sale, I have to buy the machinery and hire people. This takes money up front, which must be borrowed. Once again, this is not rocket science. The problem is not the use of credit, it is the use of too much credit of the wrong kind. Normally the system is self regulating based on a bank taking responsibility for the loan and its repayment. This system broke down because a corrupt system was allow to grow in the US, mainly by the Bush administration. Again, this is a matter of fact, not opinion or liberal propaganda. Unless people acknowledge reality, there is no hope for a correction. Ed On Sep 25, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Remi Cornwall wrote: I asked a friend once: How do things get their price? The price of something is whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. A false economy of credit is a house of cards. To me, in my simple way of thinking, money must ultimately come down to some form of barter for labour or resources. I just have the feeling that there are too many parasites, speculators, lifestyle gurus, interior designers, flim-flam and not enough people being rewarded for real work such as manufacture or agriculture - too much service sector. That bartering provides a means of living on the planet, right, at its most fundamental level? I break a leg then I need a medic, I need some food then I need a farmer, I need a house then I need a builder. I give something in return they decide if they need it or not. What happens when two pop music starlets need each other? - on a cruise ship imagine the cry, someone is about to suffer a major rhythm defect, is there a pop musician in the house? In times of economic collapse people barter skills or cigarettes. There's then a whole level of life's luxuries that we are willing to pay for - trans fatty acid cream buns, big SUVS
Re: [Vo]:Do do do doo. Do do do doo...
In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:47:34 -0400: Hi, [snip] Fundmentally, it depends on energy, the energy of human intelligence, and the physical energy to do work of all kinds. [snip] ...and this is why a new source of essentially unlimited energy can lead to a golden age for all, not just a few. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
