RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
I did wonder about power gain, given that thermonic emission isn't very efficient. I spoke with a very competent BSEE field engineer some years ago and he said he and a fellow engineer wondered about efficiency figures in klystron transmitters - to the effect that they often seemed too high, once all the heat losses were considered. From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance I was not familiar with Nelson's invention. I am now. Its an interesting patent. However the discussion is ambiguous as to whether on not it creates usable energy over and above the energy needed to power the magnetic field and the electron gun used to create a cloud of electrons- - parts of the invention. It avoids the issue of whether the COP is greater than 1 or if there is COE in the operation of the device. It does point out an apparent attraction of electrons in the cloud of electrons that formed by the cathode (elect Bob - Original Message - From: Chris Zellmailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:19 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.commailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axilmailto:janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-lmailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below. These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q. Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.commailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
You mention thermonic emission as being fairly inefficient. That made me wonder how effeicient it would be if the emitting surface were well insulated from the outside world. What if the radiation loss, the convection loss and conduction losses could be essentially eliminated by good design practices? Would that ensure that mainly electrons would carry away the heat energy? I have zero experience in this area of technology but am curious about how the energy would escape the system if every avenue were plugged except for one. Dave -Original Message- From: Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, May 4, 2014 10:18 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance I did wonder about power gain, given that thermonic emission isn't very efficient. I spoke with a very competent BSEE field engineer some years ago and he said he and a fellow engineer wondered about efficiency figures in klystron transmitters - to the effect that they often seemed too high, once all the heat losses were considered. From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance I was not familiar with Nelson's invention. I am now. Its an interesting patent. However the discussion is ambiguous as to whether on not it creates usable energy over and above the energy needed to power the magnetic field and the electron gun used to create a cloud of electrons- - parts of the invention. It avoids the issue of whether the COP is greater than 1 or if there is COE in the operation of the device. It does point out an apparent attraction of electrons in the cloud of electrons that formed by the cathode (elect Bob - Original Message - From:Chris Zell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:19 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - From:Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon “In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below.” These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect “Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q.” Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea
RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
From: David Roberson You mention thermonic emission as being fairly inefficient. That made me wonder how effeicient it would be if the emitting surface were well insulated from the outside world. What if the radiation loss, the convection loss and conduction losses could be essentially eliminated by good design practices? Would that ensure that mainly electrons would carry away the heat energy? The problem with that suggestion is that if you superimpose the electron emission curve (for the Edison effect) over the blackbody curve, most of the thermal heat spectrum of combustion is not very useful (steep enough), even if all heat was completely retained. The threshold for thermionic emission is high, and thermal distribution curve was never adequate to begin with (for chemical reactions). To be useful, the rejected heat must not only be retained, but upshifted. Another problem is that if the heat is from combustion, then removal of exhaust will necessarily carry away heat. However, if the heat source is nuclear, then things are different since the origin of the thermal spectrum is extremely high, MeV level - and one needs only to prevent rapid downshifting before electron emission. A case in point (and a huge missed opportunity for the USA) was the Topaz reactor fiasco. We may have missed a great opportunity for civilian use, had we joined forces with the Russians on this – since we had part of the answer (computer controls) and they had the main part (high temp hardware). Instead, petty jealousies kept everyone from benefiting (assuming that it would have evolved into a civilian reactor). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topaz_Nuclear_Reactor This design can be made to work with low enriched fuel - and also in a subcritical regime where a “desktop accelerator” provides both makeup neutrons, positive flux control, and a voltage gradient to accelerate electron “boil-off”. That kind of synergy is what would push it into civilian use. The thermal spectrum for thermionics is essentially the same with low enrichment as high. Now that we have seen the possibility of driving small electron accelerators with solid state lasers, the possibility of un-enriched thermionic reactors makes the Topaz fiasco seem even more short-sighted in the big picture perspective. (for everyone except the coal and natural gas purveyors).
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. Here is a copy of the patent with less moving images: http://www.google.com/patents/US20010040434 From glancing over the patent, I understand that Nelson is claiming to have an overunity device and that the mechanism somehow relates to thermionic emission. Did anyone catch Nelson's own understanding of how thermionic emission leads to overunity gain? Does he put the mechanism in the chemical bucket, the nuclear bucket, or another bucket? Or does he leave an explanation out of the patent? (I didn't see one, but I didn't read the patent too closely.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 7:56 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. This is an interesting thought. But note that the electrons in shells around a nucleus are probably not in pairs due to some kind of mutual attraction; they're strongly attracted to the positively charged protons in the nucleus and settle into pairs because with opposite spins they don't cancel each other out. Or so my understanding would lead me to believe. Eric
RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axilmailto:janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-lmailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below. These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q. Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.commailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the [nu] = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge of an electron is distributed over a volume--at least the source of the virtual photons that carry the force from an electron emanate from a volume of the electron. As the volumes of the pairing electrons coincide there is a reduced repulsive force, since the centers are inside the surface of each of the respective electron's spherical surfaces and the virtual photons can have no effect of force on the center of mass of either electron.Of course TMK no one knows the volume or the structure of an electron nor the charge density as the radius goes to 0 radius at the effective center. The spin attraction is a much shorter range force and acts within the spherical boundaries of the electrons.
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
That device does not look like a two dimensional system as LENR is. On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. -- *From:* Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:36 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon “In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below.” These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect “Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q.” Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the [image: nu] = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge of an electron is distributed over a volume--at least the source of the virtual photons that carry the force from an electron emanate from a volume of the electron. As the volumes of the pairing electrons coincide there is a reduced repulsive force, since the centers are inside the surface of each of the respective electron's spherical surfaces and the virtual photons can have no effect of force on the center of mass of either electron.Of course TMK no one knows the volume or the structure of an electron nor the charge density as the radius goes to 0 radius at the effective center. The spin attraction is a much shorter range force and acts within the spherical boundaries
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
I was not familiar with Nelson's invention. I am now. Its an interesting patent. However the discussion is ambiguous as to whether on not it creates usable energy over and above the energy needed to power the magnetic field and the electron gun used to create a cloud of electrons- - parts of the invention. It avoids the issue of whether the COP is greater than 1 or if there is COE in the operation of the device. It does point out an apparent attraction of electrons in the cloud of electrons that formed by the cathode (elect Bob - Original Message - From: Chris Zell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:19 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2001/0040434.html I assume you are familiar with Lawrence Nelson's patents in regard to screened electrons. -- From: Bob Cook [mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below. These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q. Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
More... Here is the entire paper http://www.phys.vt.edu/~scarola/cooper.pdf Cooper Instability of Composite Fermions On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 1:58 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6798/abs/406863a0.html *Cooper instability of composite fermions* This should answer your question about cooper pairing and how it happens. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:21 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does not require a positive charge to keep them together? It is good to see that you have been considering the pairing of electrons as a unit. That is the root of my question about whether or not electrons repel each other at all normal distances. Much depends upon how the spin generated magnetic field falls off with distance when compared with electric field fall off. The Dirac articles imply that the energy associated with the spin magnetic field is greater than that of the energy needed to free up the epos. I find this very interesting and also leads me to question the normal pair production concept. My tendency is to cling to the COE with all claws until no other explanation can be proven. If epos actually exist, they would be neutral and difficult to isolate. One might suggest that a large magnetic field might be able to pull them apart in a matter somewhat like we are considering for the activity of LENR systems. There seems to be so many possible avenues to explore as we attempt to explain how nuclear reactions can occur at low temperatures. Spin coupling via strong magnetic forces still offers the best solutions in my estimate. It will be ironic if it turns out that the high energy physics experiments totally miss this means of interaction due to the very fact that they operate at such elevated energy levels and low densities. Dave -Original Message- From: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org http://arxiv.org/ nucl-exhttp://arxiv.org/list/nucl-ex/recent arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - *From:* MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:06 AM *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave asked: “The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair.” Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma… If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple… two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will ‘couple’, and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call ‘charge’, the pair is free to move w/o being influenced by other charged entities in the lattice. -Mark *From:* David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com dlrober...@aol.com?] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Dave-- My additional thoughts on the pairing of electrons. The atomic chart reveals electronic structure of electrons in shells at various distances from the nucleus. The inner shells have fewer electrons than the outer shells have and the inner shells when filled are filled with an even number of electrons that have been paired. As I understand the theory such configurations are stable minimum energy states. Thus pair electrons constitute a lower energy state than single unpaired electrons in an atom would. However, since the electrons can not occupy the same energy state within a QM coherent system, even any given pair do not have the same energy. This is because the spin of each electron is on average opposite to its paired neighbor. I am not aware of experimental data that has indicated what the average separation is. In the theory I believe it is quite close and at an equilibrium position that balances a spin attractive force to the coulomb repulsion force. It is I would guess like the Cooper Pairing we have discussed in the past and potentially act like a boson with 0 spin. If the magnetic field of an electron is cancelled out by the opposite magnetic field of its pair, the resulting field is null. Thus paramagnetic materials that have a high magnetic susceptibility have lots of unpaired electrons in their electronic structure that are able to line up in an external field and increase the resulting magnetic field, those with fewer pairs respond to a lesser degree to a external field. Even though the electrons are paired, they do not lose their charge and they represent a -2e charge at a distance from the pair that is great with respect to the distance between the charges in the paired electron quasiparticle. - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does not require a positive charge to keep them together? It is good to see that you have been considering the pairing of electrons as a unit. That is the root of my question about whether or not electrons repel each other at all normal distances. Much depends upon how the spin generated magnetic field falls off with distance when compared with electric field fall off. The Dirac articles imply that the energy associated with the spin magnetic field is greater than that of the energy needed to free up the epos. I find this very interesting and also leads me to question the normal pair production concept. My tendency is to cling to the COE with all claws until no other explanation can be proven. If epos actually exist, they would be neutral and difficult to isolate. One might suggest that a large magnetic field might be able to pull them apart in a matter somewhat like we are considering for the activity of LENR systems. There seems to be so many possible avenues to explore as we attempt to explain how nuclear reactions can occur at low temperatures. Spin coupling via strong magnetic forces still offers the best solutions in my estimate. It will be ironic if it turns out that the high energy physics experiments totally miss this means of interaction due to the very fact that they operate at such elevated energy levels and low densities. Dave -Original Message- From: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org nucl-ex arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:06 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave asked: The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will couple, and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call charge, the pair
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge of an electron is distributed over a volume--at least the source of the virtual photons that carry the force from an electron emanate from a volume of the electron. As the volumes of the pairing electrons coincide there is a reduced repulsive force, since the centers are inside the surface of each of the respective electron's spherical surfaces and the virtual photons can have no effect of force on the center of mass of either electron.Of course TMK no one knows the volume or the structure of an electron nor the charge density as the radius goes to 0 radius at the effective center. The spin attraction is a much shorter range force and acts within the spherical boundaries of the electrons. In effect the electron surface boundary is a surface like the vacuum surface in ZPE theory. Inside the surface you have virtual photons coming and going in equal amounts, establishing a force field that affects other electrons and electrically charged particles. The center of the electron is made of a fine line of virtual + and - magnetic monopoles that are segregated at each end of the fine line. The virtual magnetic monopoles are constant spin particles and transmit the magnetic force outside the boundary of the electron as a magnetic field. They obey the theory of constant spin particles being touted by the likes of Schuster and Toto in Canada. See the item cited below. arXiv:1302.3225v2 [hep-th] 1 Nov 2013 Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6798/abs/406863a0.html Cooper instability of composite fermions This should answer your question about cooper pairing and how it happens. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:21 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does not require a positive charge to keep them together? It is good to see that you have been considering the pairing of electrons as a unit. That is the root of my question about whether or not electrons repel each other at all normal distances. Much depends upon how the spin generated magnetic field falls off with distance when compared with electric field fall off. The Dirac articles imply that the energy associated with the spin magnetic field is greater than that of the energy needed to free up the epos. I find this very interesting and also leads me to question the normal pair production concept. My tendency is to cling to the COE with all claws until no other explanation can be proven. If epos actually exist, they would be neutral and difficult to isolate. One might suggest that a large magnetic field might be able to pull them apart in a matter somewhat like we are considering for the activity of LENR systems. There seems to be so many possible avenues to explore as we attempt to explain how nuclear reactions can occur at low temperatures. Spin coupling via strong magnetic forces still offers the best solutions in my estimate. It will be ironic if it turns out that the high energy physics experiments totally miss this means of interaction due to the very fact that they operate at such elevated energy levels and low densities. Dave -Original Message- From: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org nucl-ex arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon “In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below.” These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect “Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q.” Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the [image: nu] = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge of an electron is distributed over a volume--at least the source of the virtual photons that carry the force from an electron emanate from a volume of the electron. As the volumes of the pairing electrons coincide there is a reduced repulsive force, since the centers are inside the surface of each of the respective electron's spherical surfaces and the virtual photons can have no effect of force on the center of mass of either electron.Of course TMK no one knows the volume or the structure of an electron nor the charge density as the radius goes to 0 radius at the effective center. The spin attraction is a much shorter range force and acts within the spherical boundaries of the electrons. In effect the electron surface boundary is a surface like the vacuum surface in ZPE theory. Inside the surface you have virtual photons coming and going in equal amounts, establishing a force field that affects other electrons and electrically charged particles. The center of the electron is made of a fine line of virtual + and - magnetic monopoles that are segregated at each end of the fine line. The virtual magnetic monopoles are constant spin particles and transmit the magnetic force outside the boundary of the electron as a magnetic field. They obey the theory of constant spin particles being touted by the likes of Schuster and Toto in Canada. See the item cited below. arXiv:1302.3225v2 [hep-th] 1 Nov 2013 Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:58 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6798/abs/406863a0.html *Cooper instability of composite fermions* This should answer your question about cooper pairing and how it happens. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:21 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Axil-- The Nature abstract, which I quoted, states that the that...the formation of composite fermions resulting in a weak attractive interaction. Why didn't the authors make this screening clear? From what you say the anyons are not composite Fermions but quasiholes. I can understand that and even suggested that as a possible screening effect. Why doesn't the abstract say this. That's the reason I thought it was merely hand waving. Universal acceptance is pretty absolute. I doubt your inference is accurate. It sounded to me that the authors did not accept Cooper pairing mechanism as a possibility. I wonder if it is referenced in the full article? If you have the full article at hand, maybe you could answer this question. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Bob said: The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. Axil says: From what I can tell, this theory of how the fractional quantum hall effect(FQHE) works is universally accepted in science and is one of the backbone theories of how cooper pairs of electrons form in a superconductor, Bob said: In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? Axil says: A magnetic field will produce a pair of vortexes of magnetic flux that connects themselves to the electron. As the magnetic field increases, addition pairs of vortexes are created in quantum steps. These are Anyons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anyon “In physics, an anyon is a type of particle that occurs only in two-dimensional systems, with properties much less restricted than fermions and bosons; the operation of exchanging two identical particles may cause a global phase shift but cannot affect observables. Anyons are generally classified as abelian or non-abelian, as explained below.” These vortexes are also called quasiholes. They have fractional positive charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_quantum_Hall_effect “Laughlin states and fractionally-charged quasiparticles: this theory, proposed by Laughlin, is based on accurate trial wave functions for the ground state at fraction as well as its quasiparticle and quasihole excitations. The excitations have fractional charge of magnitude e=c/q.” Bob asks: A positive Coulomb charge? Axil answers: Yes, a fractional positive charge. Bob asks: Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? Axil answers: Yes. These are quasiholes that form in a two dimensional system in the vacuum by a magnetic field and connect themselves to the electron. GOOGLE quasiholes to see the theory behind the concept and observe how much work has gone into this theory. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil and Dave-- The following quote from the abstract cited below from Nature seems like a lot of hand waving to me. In effect, the repulsive Coulomb interaction between electrons is overscreened in the = 5/2 state by the formation of composite fermions, resulting in a weak, attractive interaction. Overscreened by what? A positive Coulomb charge? Or maybe holes in the electron sea that seem a little positive with respect to the rest of the sea? It seems that whatever is causing the attraction must get between the two particles being paired if its a screening effect. I think it is more likely that the charge of an electron is distributed over a volume--at least the source of the virtual photons that carry the force from an electron emanate from a volume of the electron. As the volumes of the pairing electrons coincide there is a reduced repulsive force, since the centers are inside the surface of each of the respective electron's spherical surfaces and the virtual photons can have no effect of force on the center of mass of either electron.Of course TMK no one knows the volume or the structure of an electron nor the charge density as the radius goes to 0 radius at the effective center. The spin attraction is a much shorter range force and acts within the spherical boundaries of the electrons. In effect the electron surface boundary is a surface like the vacuum surface in ZPE theory. Inside the surface you have virtual photons coming and going in equal amounts, establishing a force field that affects other electrons and electrically charged particles. The center of the electron is made of a fine line of virtual + and - magnetic monopoles that are segregated at each end of the fine line. The virtual magnetic monopoles are constant spin particles and transmit
[Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just make that assumption? Perhaps slightly elevated temperatures break apart the weak connection that exists between pairs or relatively small electromagnetic fields tear them apart under test conditions. One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. Could that be their normal state of existence? Dave
RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Dave asked: The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma. If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple. two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will 'couple', and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call 'charge', the pair is free to move w/o being influenced by other charged entities in the lattice. -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just make that assumption? Perhaps slightly elevated temperatures break apart the weak connection that exists between pairs or relatively small electromagnetic fields tear them apart under test conditions. One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. Could that be their normal state of existence? Dave
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Electrons can take on a large number of phases of matter based on how they move relative to each other. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121221233120.htm The 500 phases of matter: New system successfully classifies symmetry-protected phases One possibility is that an electron can be broken up into 3 different quasiparticles. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electron-splits-into-quasiparticles/ Electeron Splits into Quasiparticles When the charge quasiparticle becomes remote from its associated electron, the electron will pair with its opposite spin partner to minimize its energy level. This is similar to what happens with quarks where two quarks with opposite spin pair together connected by a strong force channel. Particles without charge will pair together based on spin like a bar magnet with two opposite poles. Other matter that surround the electrons force the electrons to move in a very precise copper pair forcing dance to initiate the start of that unusual phase of matter. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:56 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just make that assumption? Perhaps slightly elevated temperatures break apart the weak connection that exists between pairs or relatively small electromagnetic fields tear them apart under test conditions. One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. Could that be their normal state of existence? Dave
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
More... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_fermion The Fractional Quantum Hall Effect causes a reduction in the charge of the electron in quantum fractional steps. A magnetic field generates two paired vortexes (magnetic flux quanta) to form that are connected to the electron. The vortexes take charge away from the electron as the magnetic field increases until all the charge is removed. This effect may well be how Cravins sees a LENR reaction based on powered magnet. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Electrons can take on a large number of phases of matter based on how they move relative to each other. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121221233120.htm The 500 phases of matter: New system successfully classifies symmetry-protected phases One possibility is that an electron can be broken up into 3 different quasiparticles. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electron-splits-into-quasiparticles/ Electeron Splits into Quasiparticles When the charge quasiparticle becomes remote from its associated electron, the electron will pair with its opposite spin partner to minimize its energy level. This is similar to what happens with quarks where two quarks with opposite spin pair together connected by a strong force channel. Particles without charge will pair together based on spin like a bar magnet with two opposite poles. Other matter that surround the electrons force the electrons to move in a very precise copper pair forcing dance to initiate the start of that unusual phase of matter. On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:56 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just make that assumption? Perhaps slightly elevated temperatures break apart the weak connection that exists between pairs or relatively small electromagnetic fields tear them apart under test conditions. One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. Could that be their normal state of existence? Dave
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org nucl-ex arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:06 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave asked: The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma. If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple. two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will 'couple', and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call 'charge', the pair is free to move w/o being influenced by other charged entities in the lattice. -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just make that assumption? Perhaps slightly elevated temperatures break apart the weak connection that exists between pairs or relatively small electromagnetic fields tear them apart under test conditions. One observation that appears valid is that electrons certainly occur in pairs around nuclei. Could that be their normal state of existence? Dave
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does not require a positive charge to keep them together? It is good to see that you have been considering the pairing of electrons as a unit. That is the root of my question about whether or not electrons repel each other at all normal distances. Much depends upon how the spin generated magnetic field falls off with distance when compared with electric field fall off. The Dirac articles imply that the energy associated with the spin magnetic field is greater than that of the energy needed to free up the epos. I find this very interesting and also leads me to question the normal pair production concept. My tendency is to cling to the COE with all claws until no other explanation can be proven. If epos actually exist, they would be neutral and difficult to isolate. One might suggest that a large magnetic field might be able to pull them apart in a matter somewhat like we are considering for the activity of LENR systems. There seems to be so many possible avenues to explore as we attempt to explain how nuclear reactions can occur at low temperatures. Spin coupling via strong magnetic forces still offers the best solutions in my estimate. It will be ironic if it turns out that the high energy physics experiments totally miss this means of interaction due to the very fact that they operate at such elevated energy levels and low densities. Dave -Original Message- From: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org nucl-ex arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:06 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave asked: The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will couple, and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call charge, the pair is free to move w/o being influenced by other charged entities in the lattice. -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:57 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes. Another question that immediately comes to the table is whether or not pairs of electrons are the natural manner in which they exist within metals, etc. Do techniques exist that can prove that they are individuals under normal conditions or do we just
Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6798/abs/406863a0.html *Cooper instability of composite fermions* This should answer your question about cooper pairing and how it happens. On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 12:21 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Bob, I am a bit confused about how the electron pair acts like a -2 charge in an atom according to your theory. Do you visualize the -2 charge pair orbiting a nucleus of hydrogen for example in this description? Or, are they moving together as a pair that does not require a positive charge to keep them together? It is good to see that you have been considering the pairing of electrons as a unit. That is the root of my question about whether or not electrons repel each other at all normal distances. Much depends upon how the spin generated magnetic field falls off with distance when compared with electric field fall off. The Dirac articles imply that the energy associated with the spin magnetic field is greater than that of the energy needed to free up the epos. I find this very interesting and also leads me to question the normal pair production concept. My tendency is to cling to the COE with all claws until no other explanation can be proven. If epos actually exist, they would be neutral and difficult to isolate. One might suggest that a large magnetic field might be able to pull them apart in a matter somewhat like we are considering for the activity of LENR systems. There seems to be so many possible avenues to explore as we attempt to explain how nuclear reactions can occur at low temperatures. Spin coupling via strong magnetic forces still offers the best solutions in my estimate. It will be ironic if it turns out that the high energy physics experiments totally miss this means of interaction due to the very fact that they operate at such elevated energy levels and low densities. Dave -Original Message- From: Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Apr 30, 2014 6:50 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave-- Also it has been my concept that the pair act like a -2 charge in an atom. The dipole interaction distance is fairly short compared to the 1/r associated with a bare charge. I also like to think of the attraction as a spin coupling effect not unlike the spin orbit force discussed in the following item: The mechanism is not described very well in this item however. arXiv.org http://arxiv.org/ nucl-exhttp://arxiv.org/list/nucl-ex/recent arXiv:1401.1593v1 Bob - Original Message - *From:* MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:06 AM *Subject:* RE: [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance Dave asked: “The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair.” Just one more of the inconsistencies in modern fizzix dogma… If the electron/hole is modeled as a dipole-like oscillation, then the answer to your question Is very simple… two electron-oscillations 180 degrees out of phase will ‘couple’, and the complementary ends together will cancel what we call ‘charge’, the pair is free to move w/o being influenced by other charged entities in the lattice. -Mark *From:* David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com dlrober...@aol.com?] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:57 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* [Vo]:Electron Repulsion Versus Distance We have been discussing spin coupling as one element that might allow LENR to proceed without dangerous radiation emissions. And, it is well known that super conductive materials use Cooper pairs of electrons to operate. The fact that a pair of electrons can work together even though they are repelled by the electric charge they possess leads me to wonder how they ever work as a pair. The force of repulsion between two like charges varies as the square of the distance separating them according to the E field distribution. The closer they approach each other, the stronger is the repulsion. But magnetic near field effects vary as the third order with distance for two pole sources. If the electrons find a way to allow the magnetic attraction to be positive by for example having opposite spin, then is there a certain distance where the two forces balance out? If so, one might expect the two to actually become attracted to each other when closer approach occurs. So, does spin of an electron lead to a magnetic field that can actually allow a pair to become attracted at very close ranges? If the attraction possibility exists would it be demonstrated in a beam of electrons traveling within a vacuum? The relative velocity and hence temperature variation along the beam can be reduced significantly by adjusting the source and control electrodes
