[Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
I wrote: Generally speaking, in my experience, the value of a technical claim is inversely proportional to the level of secrecy applied to it. I am not being cynical. Well, not completely cynical. In technology, when you make an important claim you file a patent. A patent must reveal everything or it is invalid. In pure science, when you make an important breakthrough you rush to publish it as soon as possible to establish priority. Sometimes, foolish people make what they think is an important breakthrough and they try to keep it secret. These breakthroughs are usually mistakes or stuff that everyone knows already. Howard Aiken's dictum applies: Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Michael McKubre said that the reason he believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for the last 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front of patent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer… it worked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office was forced to give Papp a patent on his engine. The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote: Generally speaking, in my experience, the value of a technical claim is inversely proportional to the level of secrecy applied to it. I am not being cynical. Well, not completely cynical. In technology, when you make an important claim you file a patent. A patent must reveal everything or it is invalid. In pure science, when you make an important breakthrough you rush to publish it as soon as possible to establish priority. Sometimes, foolish people make what they think is an important breakthrough and they try to keep it secret. These breakthroughs are usually mistakes or stuff that everyone knows already. Howard Aiken's dictum applies: Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. What makes you think it is LENR? I guess in the broader sense it probably is, but I doubt it has anything to do with hydride cold fusion (the F-P effect). But, who knows?! Until it is independently reincarnated and tested I will have little confidence it is real, even if it convinced the Patent Office. I do not dismiss it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
At 12:50 PM 8/30/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Michael McKubre said that the reason he believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for the last 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front of patent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer it worked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office was forced to give Papp a patent on his engine. Is that documented anywhere? (googling doesn't give any quick, definitive links). Are patent office communications archived? The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. Since it depends on a plasma, I'd call it Hot fusion.
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
I think the Papp engine is electric charge accumulation, magnetic alignment, compression and collapse followed by an instant energy burst. Same thing happening in the voids/cracks of the lattice each pop of DGT's spark plugs. I think we saw yesterday that TerraWatt Research LLC also has a patent for their magnetic motor. That electric motor is spinning those magnets and creating a magnetic impulse/alignment and possible compression within the gap between them at 20 times/sec. Electric charge also builds in the gap over time since the burst of matter should release charged particles. It is all the same effect aided by quantum level gravitational attraction finishing the collapse. I am going to continue pounding that thought into everyone's collective brains. Stewart http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. What makes you think it is LENR? I guess in the broader sense it probably is, but I doubt it has anything to do with hydride cold fusion (the F-P effect). But, who knows?! Until it is independently reincarnated and tested I will have little confidence it is real, even if it convinced the Patent Office. I do not dismiss it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Let’s use some Rothmen logic here. How can plasma be produced if the temperature of the engine is just warm to the touch? How can 500 HP be produced sustainably without the presence of huge external electrical feed that is easily detectable? Michael McKubre is a man of common sense; according to Mike, the internal power source is either LENR or derived from the vacuum. All that power coming from the vacuum would be hard to believe. How can 500,000 watts come from the vacuum? So most probably LENR is involved in powering the Papp engine. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 12:50 PM 8/30/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Michael McKubre said that the reason he believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for the last 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front of patent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer… it worked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office was forced to give Papp a patent on his engine. Is that documented anywhere? (googling doesn't give any quick, definitive links). Are patent office communications archived? The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. Since it depends on a plasma, I'd call it Hot fusion.
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Correction: Rothmen logic should have been Jed Rothwell logic… as demonstrated in the touch test by an observer of a hot Rossi reactor to prove over unity and life after death during late stage of the demo conducted by Rossi just before the last public October demo/test conducted by/for the Government. Remember? This man jumped when he burnt his fingers after he touched a hot reactor surface. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Let’s use some Rothmen logic here. How can plasma be produced if the temperature of the engine is just warm to the touch? How can 500 HP be produced sustainably without the presence of huge external electrical feed that is easily detectable? Michael McKubre is a man of common sense; according to Mike, the internal power source is either LENR or derived from the vacuum. All that power coming from the vacuum would be hard to believe. How can 500,000 watts come from the vacuum? So most probably LENR is involved in powering the Papp engine. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 12:50 PM 8/30/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Michael McKubre said that the reason he believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for the last 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front of patent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer… it worked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office was forced to give Papp a patent on his engine. Is that documented anywhere? (googling doesn't give any quick, definitive links). Are patent office communications archived? The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. Since it depends on a plasma, I'd call it Hot fusion.
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Sounds like a pretty effective test. It is apparent that the Papp device, if real, is not a heat engine due to the cool touch. I suspect LENR activity working in conjunction with some form of electric motor behavior. The axial magnetic field would give the ions a twist in direction that would induce a circulating current within the piston and opposing cap. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible Correction: Rothmen logic should have been JedRothwell logic… as demonstrated in the touch test by an observer of a hot Rossireactor to prove over unity and life after death during late stage of the demo conducted by Rossijust before the last public October demo/test conducted by/for the Government. Remember? This man jumped when he burnt his fingers after he touched a hot reactor surface. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Let’s use some Rothmen logic here. How can plasma be produced if the temperature of the engine is just warm to the touch? How can 500 HP be produced sustainably without the presence of huge external electrical feed that is easily detectable? Michael McKubre is a man of common sense; according to Mike, the internal power source is either LENR or derived from the vacuum. All that power coming from the vacuum would be hard to believe. How can 500,000 watts come from the vacuum? So most probably LENR is involved in powering the Papp engine. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 12:50 PM 8/30/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Michael McKubre said that the reasonhe believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for thelast 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front ofpatent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer… itworked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office wasforced to give Papp a patent on his engine. Is that documented anywhere? (googling doesn't give any quick, definitivelinks). Are patent office communications archived? The Papp engine is the only LENRdevice that has ever been patented. Since it depends on a plasma, I'd call it Hot fusion.
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:10 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: It is all the same effect aided by quantum level gravitational attraction finishing the collapse. I am going to continue pounding that thought into everyone's collective brains. Stewart http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 ChemE, I have a suggestion: Rather than pounding that thought into everyone's collective brains obsessively -- which is more likely to merely annoy than to persuade (especially given the vast number of theories for all manner of phenomena people have continually pounded into their brains by various proponents) -- how about if your put forth a hypothetical situation, based on your theory, that can be tested with minimum cost?
[Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
Papp/rohners mentioned it starts overheating above 2800 rpm. If the effect releases a large spectrum of radiation/charged particles only a portion might get absorbed locally resulting in heat. The rest might pass right out of the device after also propelling the piston On Thursday, August 30, 2012, David Roberson wrote: Sounds like a pretty effective test. It is apparent that the Papp device, if real, is not a heat engine due to the cool touch. I suspect LENR activity working in conjunction with some form of electric motor behavior. The axial magnetic field would give the ions a twist in direction that would induce a circulating current within the piston and opposing cap. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible Correction: Rothmen logic should have been Jed Rothwell logic… as demonstrated in the touch test by an observer of a hot Rossi reactor to prove over unity and life after death during late stage of the demo conducted by Rossi just before the last public October demo/test conducted by/for the Government. Remember? This man jumped when he burnt his fingers after he touched a hot reactor surface. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Let’s use some Rothmen logic here. How can plasma be produced if the temperature of the engine is just warm to the touch? How can 500 HP be produced sustainably without the presence of huge external electrical feed that is easily detectable? Michael McKubre is a man of common sense; according to Mike, the internal power source is either LENR or derived from the vacuum. All that power coming from the vacuum would be hard to believe. How can 500,000 watts come from the vacuum? So most probably LENR is involved in powering the Papp engine. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 12:50 PM 8/30/2012, Axil Axil wrote: Michael McKubre said that the reason he believes completely in the reality of the Papp engine reaction for the last 14 years is that Papp ran a full demo of his engine in front of patent examiners to their total satisfaction using a dynamometer… it worked as advertised. On the strength of this demo, the patent office was forced to give Papp a patent on his engine. Is that documented anywhere? (googling doesn't give any quick, definitive links). Are patent office communications archived? The Papp engine is the only LENR device that has ever been patented. Since it depends on a plasma, I'd call it Hot fusion.
Re: [Vo]:Important claims are patented or published as quickly as possible
A patent is not the only way to protect an idea. In practice, trade secret law may be more important. This is particularly true when the idea to be protected is not the product itself, but the process used to produce it. Consider the high-K metal gate process used by Intel at the 45nm and 32nm nodes. Intel published a small amount of information about the process when they introduced it. And competitors have undoubtedly reverse engineered the results, determining the precise geometries and elemental makeup of the devices. But they do not know the process used to produce them. They are forced to hypothesize about the process technology and then test each hypothesis. Certainly, knowing the final result is a huge advantage over having to dream it up in the first place. But reverse engineering the manufacturing process is still daunting, even for engineers already skilled in the art. I think there may be analogies in LENR. Now frankly in the long run, I don't expect this fact to be especially significant. If this stuff plays out as some of us hope, the economic incentive will ensure that what can be done, will be done, and quickly. If it doesn't play out, there are no useful secrets to protect. But trade secrecy may have a large effect on the likelihood of people like me, a curious non-specialist, ever being able to satisfy my curiosity about what the heck is going on. Bummer. ;-) Jeff, speaking for myself. I have never been employed by Intel or had access to any Intel trade-secret information through NDA or anything like that. On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I wrote: Generally speaking, in my experience, the value of a technical claim is inversely proportional to the level of secrecy applied to it. I am not being cynical. Well, not completely cynical. In technology, when you make an important claim you file a patent. A patent must reveal everything or it is invalid. In pure science, when you make an important breakthrough you rush to publish it as soon as possible to establish priority. Sometimes, foolish people make what they think is an important breakthrough and they try to keep it secret. These breakthroughs are usually mistakes or stuff that everyone knows already. Howard Aiken's dictum applies: Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. - Jed
