Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:30:39 -0400: Hi, [snip] On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:11 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Smart meters log exactly when you consume power, so the power company can compare this to the times when excess power was available, and charge you a lower rate accordingly. They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes. I agree. However there may be an alternative. Try looking on the web for the wholesale price of electricity. It varies by the hour. It should be possible to write an app that checks regularly and informs you when the price is low. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:07:05 -0400: Hi, [snip] mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yes, I know, but my way is better. It's completely automatic. Kind of problematic though. What if the voltage does not drop in my locale but the power company wants to reduce power anyway? You are talking about reducing power consumption at times of high demand. I was talking about increasing it at times of low demand. More accurately, moving the new load that lots of electrical vehicles will add, to times when excess power is available. That would be e.g. when it's windy. However there is also the possibility that a parked vehicle that already had fully charged batteries could return some power if the voltage dropped below a certain level. Whether or not it did so, would depend on the car knowing when next it would be used, and calculating how long it would take to recharge what it had sold back to the power company. This isn't a panacea, but it would help even out supply and demand. Essentially all the nation's electric vehicles would be acting as a large battery storage for wind and solar power. That would mean that wind and solar could increase their share of the total supply. It's comparable to a free market compared to centralized control in a communist system. Besides who wants a centralized authority turning off the power that is charging their car? A bit too much room for abuse IMO. I can't imagine what kind of abuse there could be. Suppose that someone who doesn't like you decides to tell the power company computer to tell your car to stop charging, so that come morning, when you are about to drive away, you discover that you have a flat battery. Suppose that this happens regularly to people that someone in government considers to be trouble makers. Anyway, if they want to give me a reduced rate in return for this, I would be pleased. That's a decision that each car owner should be able to make for themselves. When corporations and factories give the power company remote access to turn down their equipment, they get a price break. That's fine, as long as it remains within control of the individual. I.e. it should be possible to press a button in your car, allowing you to opt out at any time. With the smart meter, I get a price break now, for not using power during peak summer hours. - Jed ...and there is no reason why the mechanism I described above shouldn't also lead to a price break. The only difference is that mine is automatic, whereas yours is controlled by a central computer at the power company. Smart meters log exactly when you consume power, so the power company can compare this to the times when excess power was available, and charge you a lower rate accordingly. Since my method results in automatic matching, you always get the lowest possible rate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:11 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Smart meters log exactly when you consume power, so the power company can compare this to the times when excess power was available, and charge you a lower rate accordingly. They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes.
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: However there is also the possibility that a parked vehicle that already had fully charged batteries could return some power if the voltage dropped below a certain level. I see. They have arrangements like that for people with rooftop PV electricity. I think the equipment is expensive. It would not be practical until millions of plug-in cars are in use. I can't imagine what kind of abuse there could be. Suppose that someone who doesn't like you decides to tell the power company computer to tell your car to stop charging, so that come morning, when you are about to drive away, you discover that you have a flat battery. In my wildest imagination I cannot imagine the power company doing that. I am pretty sure you could sue them up the wazzoo. I am also pretty sure that a person driving a fully electric car has to pay close attention to the battery level, so you would notice, and this nefarious plan would fail. With a plug-in hybrid this would not work. You would spend a dollar extra on gasoline. Suppose that this happens regularly to people that someone in government considers to be trouble makers. The power company is not the government. And the government does not do things like that. It does not want to draw attention to itself. Anyway, if they want to give me a reduced rate in return for this, I would be pleased. That's a decision that each car owner should be able to make for themselves. That's how it works. You have to sign up for these things. They do not give you the price break without a contract. Georgia Power doesn't, anyway. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes. They don't, but the power company sends you a magnetic sticker for the refrigerator showing the rates and times of day, which is just as good. I guess you could ask for another to stick on the dryer. It is a cute sticker. I cannot find an image of it. I found that a group of people thinks smart meters are making them sick: http://www.stopsmartmetersgeorgia.org/ They say this is caused by the radio transmission from the meters. These transmissions last about 1 s per day, so I doubt there is a problem. I do worry a little about WiFi in the house. Our WiFi transmitter is right next to where my wife works all day. I should move it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
Some utilities are forced to charge a fixed price per kilowatt for generation to foster pricing competition. Distribution and maintenance is also fixed pricing. For those utilities, it seems to me that the smart meter cannot be used to benefit these customers so afflicted. axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: They should display the current (pun intended) rate so that you can personally choose to shed load or wash a load of clothes. They don't, but the power company sends you a magnetic sticker for the refrigerator showing the rates and times of day, which is just as good. I guess you could ask for another to stick on the dryer. It is a cute sticker. I cannot find an image of it. I found that a group of people thinks smart meters are making them sick: http://www.stopsmartmetersgeorgia.org/ They say this is caused by the radio transmission from the meters. These transmissions last about 1 s per day, so I doubt there is a problem. I do worry a little about WiFi in the house. Our WiFi transmitter is right next to where my wife works all day. I should move it. - Jed
[Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
See: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2013/03/nuclear-industry-withers-in-u-s-as-wind-pummels-prices I did not realize there is such a thing as a negative cost per megawatt (a penalty) when there is too much power available. It is a shame that wind seems to be hurting nuclear power more than it is hurting coal. Interesting quotes: The [2012 capacity] surge added a record 13,124 megawatts of wind turbines to the nation’s power grid, up 28 percent from 2011. The new wind farms increased financial pressure on traditional generators such as Dominion Resources Inc. and Exelon Corp. in their operating regions. That’s because wind energy undercut power prices already driven to 10-year-lows by an abundance of natural gas. “Right now, natural gas and wind power are more economic than nuclear power in the Midwestern electricity market,” Howard Learner, executive director of the Environmental Law and Policy Center, a Chicago-based advocate of cleaner energy, said in a phone interview. “It’s a matter of economic competitiveness.” Wind-generated electricity supplied about 3.4 percent of U.S. demand in 2012 and the share is projected to jump to 4.2 percent in 2014, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. . . . Wind power has two advantages. Green energy laws in many states require utilities to buy wind energy under long-term contracts as part of their clean-energy goals and take that power even when they don’t need it. Wind farms also receive a federal tax credit of $22 for every megawatt-hour generated. Thus, even when there is no demand for the power they produce, operators keep turbines spinning, sending their surplus to the grid because the tax credit assures them a profit. On gusty days in the five states with the most wind power — Texas, California, Iowa, Illinois and Oregon -- this can flood power grids, causing prices to drop below zero during times when demand is light. Wholesale electricity during off-peak hours in Illinois has sold for an average price of $23.39 per megawatt hour since Jan. 1, after hitting a record low of -$41.08 on Oct. 11, the least since the Midwest Independent Transmission System Operator Inc. began sharing real-time pricing in 2005. . . . U.S. wind installations have risen 10-fold since 2003 to 60,007 megawatts, attracting $120 billion investment that has produced new capacity equivalent to 14 nuclear power plants and enough to power 14.7 million homes, the AWEA, the industry group based in Washington, D.C., said in a Jan. 30 report. Wind’s rapid gains have created headaches for grid operators since winds often blow strongest when homes and businesses use the least amount of power: at night and during the spring and fall seasons . . . “I think this model’s got problems with it,” Patterson said in a phone interview. “There are not many examples where the product you produce actually has negative value.” Before 2006, when wind power began its latest growth spurt, negative prices were extremely rare. The phenomenon is now prevalent in parts of the Midwest, Texas and the West Coast where turbine installations are growing fastest, data compiled by Bloomberg show. “We can’t find enough demand for the amount of energy created by Mother Nature,” said Doug Johnson, spokesman for the Bonneville Power Administration, which manages the grid in the Pacific Northwest. The transmission operator, based in Portland, Oregon, paid wind operators $2.7 million last year to stay off line so it could make room for the power from hydroelectric generators handling the runoff from melting mountain snows. . . . - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Mar 2013 16:37:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] Thus, even when there is no demand for the power they produce, operators keep turbines spinning, sending their surplus to the grid because the tax credit assures them a profit. On gusty days in the five states with the most wind power Texas, California, Iowa, Illinois and Oregon -- this can flood power grids, causing prices to drop below zero during times when demand is light. Wholesale electricity during off-peak hours in Illinois has sold for an average price of $23.39 per megawatt hour since Jan. 1, after hitting a record low of -$41.08 on Oct. 11, the least since the Midwest Independent Transmission System Operator Inc. began sharing real-time pricing in 2005. More widespread use of electric cars could make a difference here. They could have a built in voltage sensor that allowed them to automatically charge when the grid voltage rose above a certain level (which tends to happen when there is more supply than demand). Of course, they would also have to be programmed to ensure that they were recharged by a settable future time, regardless. However being able to recharge whenever there is a surplus in supply would decrease the demand for recharging power when there wasn't a surplus. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:37 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: It is a shame that wind seems to be hurting nuclear power more than it is hurting coal. Yes this is the real reason, why Germany is getting rid of Nuclear by 2022. As nuclear power is unadjustable, it leads into oversupply of electricity when solar and wind conditions are both favorable and demand for electricity is low. It is quite common misunderstanding that Greenpeace would be the reason why Germany is getting rid of nukes, but if you think even two seconds it, you realize that there must be economic reasons why Germany is getting rid of nukes. There is just no room for idealism at energy markets, because it is about big money! When the second unsubsidized solar boom starts in Europe, especially France will be in problems with its high share of unadjustable nuclear. Latest price update from Australia is that 5 kW roof-top solar with 10 kWh battery storage cost just around $130 per MWh. This is significantly cheaper than grid electricity for households in Australia. Solar panels should get cheaper around 30 % and batteries 8 % in 2013. In 2012 module price of solar fell 50 %. —Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: More widespread use of electric cars could make a difference here. They could have a built in voltage sensor that allowed them to automatically charge when the grid voltage rose above a certain level . . . They may not need that. I have heard that internet connected power supplies can be turned on and off remotely to accomplish this. They are already in use in some places, to remotely reduce loads such as large air conditioners during peak hours. Georgia Power installed a smart meter at our house that charges different amounts at different times of day. It transmits data by radio. See: http://www.georgiapower.com/residential/products-programs/smart-meter/ - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 13 Mar 2013 17:18:50 -0400: Hi, [snip] mix...@bigpond.com wrote: More widespread use of electric cars could make a difference here. They could have a built in voltage sensor that allowed them to automatically charge when the grid voltage rose above a certain level . . . They may not need that. I have heard that internet connected power supplies can be turned on and off remotely to accomplish this. They are already in use in some places, to remotely reduce loads such as large air conditioners during peak hours. Yes, I know, but my way is better. It's completely automatic. It's comparable to a free market compared to centralized control in a communist system. Besides who wants a centralized authority turning off the power that is charging their car? A bit too much room for abuse IMO. Most cars spend 90% or more of their time parked, so they have lots of opportunity to act as a reserve storage system. Georgia Power installed a smart meter at our house that charges different amounts at different times of day. It transmits data by radio. See: http://www.georgiapower.com/residential/products-programs/smart-meter/ Yes, possibly soon coming to my neighborhood too. I wrote to IBM telling them how to do away with the radio transmitters, which some people object to, but I suspect my email ended up in the round archive. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yes, I know, but my way is better. It's completely automatic. Kind of problematic though. What if the voltage does not drop in my locale but the power company wants to reduce power anyway? It's comparable to a free market compared to centralized control in a communist system. Besides who wants a centralized authority turning off the power that is charging their car? A bit too much room for abuse IMO. I can't imagine what kind of abuse there could be. Anyway, if they want to give me a reduced rate in return for this, I would be pleased. When corporations and factories give the power company remote access to turn down their equipment, they get a price break. With the smart meter, I get a price break now, for not using power during peak summer hours. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Yes, I know, but my way is better. It's completely automatic. Kind of problematic though. What if the voltage does not drop in my locale but the power company wants to reduce power anyway? True, the voltage only drops when the system saturates. Does not happen here in Georgia. We supply Florida. :-)
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
I wrote: With the smart meter, I get a price break now, for not using power during peak summer hours. I mean it is optional. You sign up for these rates if you think you can keep your daytime use low: http://www.georgiapower.com/pricing/residential/nights-and-weekends.cshtml - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
They have a super-off-peak rate for charging plug-in electric vehicles: http://www.georgiapower.com/environment/electric-vehicles/what-rate-plan-is-best-for-you.cshtml It looks like the full daytime rate is 24 cents/kWh and the super-off-peak rate is 4 cents/kWh.The super-off-peak is from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. This is the kind of thing you can do with smart meters. This is not quite as flexible as giving the power company the ability to remotely turn off the vehicle charger, but I'll bet it is functionally about the same. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nuclear Industry Withers in U.S. as Wind Pummels Prices
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: With the smart meter, I get a price break now, for not using power during peak summer hours. My power consumption is always well below the energy efficient household average in the occasional power consumption reports that PGE mail out and great. But my power bill is perhaps 150 percent of what it was before the smart meters were installed. I suspect PGE are having a very good year. Eric
