Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 10:02 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnsonorionwo...@charter.net wrote: Whitley Strieber has always described his encounters as encounters with visitors. I think it is an apt description. We don't really know who the visitors are, or where they come from. In my own opinion, (an opinion I fully admit has not been proven) what we do not know or really understand yet, is in what context the reality of Whitley's encounters are being played out in. As you surely recall in his books, Strieber describes one particular visitor that I find quite frightening. It is the cloaked dwarfs that make me think of medieval trolls. Their hooded garments sound like a monk's clothes. Terry
RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
From Terry: Whitley Streiber's physical evidence: http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=375 Thank you for bringing Whitley's recent statement to my attention, Terry. I recall quite well Parade Magazine's claim where they incorrectly linked Strieber to someone who suffers from temporal lobe epilepsy. I recall wondering who fed Parade Magazine such a load of Bull S__t. I waited for the retraction, and sure enough a few weeks later, there it was, buried away, a tiny inconsequential correction. It didn't matter. The damage had already been done. Regarding the bulk of Whitley's Aug 5th journal, it should be pointed out that he actually describes the rape sequence in his first abduction book, Communion, published back in 1987, approximately two years after the incident is alleged to have occurred. Like many rape victims the experience was described from a somewhat dethatched and intellectual POV, devoid of much of the raw emotions associated with such trauma. It can often take many years for the actual direct emotions associated with such an experience to surface, where they must be dealt with. Fortunately, Whitley had the sense to seek a medical examination to confirm his intellectualized suspicions. According to Whitley, the exam indicated the fact that his body had experienced physical trauma indicative of having been raped. The physical evidence collected in the form of a medical examination should by all accounts be considered sufficient proof in most courts of law that something physically happened to Whitley. Said different, what happened to Whitley was real. Whitley Strieber has always described his encounters as encounters with visitors. I think it is an apt description. We don't really know who the visitors are, or where they come from. In my own opinion, (an opinion I fully admit has not been proven) what we do not know or really understand yet, is in what context the reality of Whitley's encounters are being played out in. Regardless of how one wishes to argue the finer points of what reality really is, what is clear to me, and what should be clear to everyone, is the fact that the medical examination has made one thing perfectly clear to Whitley, and by proxy, to everyone else who is willing to listen. This is a real experience. Pay attention to it. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
Whitley Streiber's physical evidence: http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=375 Terry On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:24 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnsonorionwo...@charter.net wrote:? YES, I BELIEVE PHYSICAL EVIDNECE HAS BEEN COLLECTED – COUNTLESS TIMES! Please, let us move on from this issue!
RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
Hi Ed, ... The physical evidence consists of parts of space crafts as described by trusted observers, objects removed from abductees as documented by doctors, changes in soil composition and depressions at landing sites, and physical changes in the eye as found by doctors. Identical descriptions of craft and devices by completely independent observers are also important. If we were talking about a normal crime scene, the law would have no trouble coming to a conclusion about what had happened. I was expecting you to be more specific. Nevertheless, I concur with the generalities of your assessment. Has it been your contention that I DON'T believe physical evidence has ever been collected? If so I'd like to squelch that assumption right now. YES, I BELIEVE PHYSICAL EVIDNECE HAS BEEN COLLECTED - COUNTLESS TIMES! Please, let us move on from this issue! My Prior Words: the possibility that the genes themselves are primarily responsible for allowing such experiences to manifest within certain individuals. IMO, such a hypothesis is just as reasonable an explanation as compared to conjecturing that the experiences are generated by encounters with extraterrestrial aliens whom it is alleged are interested in particular DNA lineages Your response to my prior words: Your comment says to me that you separate the real event of an actual encounter with an alien from an imagined encounter. Reality is really a black and white issue in this case. Humans are very good at creating an image of reality in their minds. The issue is always how close is this image to the real world. In the case of events, such as a claim for abduction, either it happened or it was imagined. There is nothing in between as far as I'm concerned. Also, the issue having importance to me is not how many claims are real and how many are imagined. If any are real, this is hugely important And What is trivial to me is an imagined abduction. I agree, if imagined abductions were common, that fact would be interesting but not as important as a real abduction. It seems to me that you are determining that this issue HAS to be a black white issue, that either these UFO abductee/experiences are physically happening, or it's all just a figment of the imagination of the experiencer. Have I understood your perceptions on this matter accurately? If so, it would appear that this is the crux of where our POVs diverge dramatically. I can only offer you my perception on these matters, which obviously doesn't make it the final word, not anymore than your perception should be taken as the final word either. I can only state that my own journey through life, so far, has suggested to me that what many assume reality to be may not necessarily be so black white after all. FWIW, it's been my experience that many of my early-adult troubles, much of my prior angst producing issues seemed to have revolved around desperate efforts on my part to make my perception of reality conform to such black white paradigms, because that was what I was told reality must be. Didn't work for me. But enough of me and my psychobabble. You certainly have given me the impression that you are far less concerned about alleged UFO encounters of the so-called imaginative kind. Personally, I think might be missing out on a lot of interesting stuff. But to each his own. ... OK, if we are debating the number of real vs imagined abductions, this is a different discussion. I have no way to judge the ratio. However, I'm only claiming that a significant number are real and the number is sufficient to be important. Understood. Using my own words: It seems to me that one of the major cruxes of our diverging POVs on this controversial UFO abduction matter revolve around what percentage of these alleged events are happening in the traditional physical sense versus how many might be happening in what I have loosely described as an altered state-of-mind that, for me, suggests a portal into an expanded realm of realities perceptions. At present I doubt neither you nor I have sufficient information to be able to report with confidence on how many are happening the old-fashion physical way versus my alternative explanation. I would conjecture that the recently mentioned Antonia Boas case may very well be an authentic physical UFO abduction. OTOH, I also have to state here that none of the alleged UFO abductees that I have seen, listened to and personally conversed with have given me the impression that their abductions are occurring in such a traditional/physical way as the Antonio Boas case. As I have stated before, some of the experiencers have even stated for the record that they don't believe their abduction experiences are happening in the traditional/physical sense either. They have instead stated that they believe the aliens transport them into a
RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
From: Mr. Storms According to David Jacob's work, the abductees run in families. I suppose some random catch and release might happen, but this does not seem to be the prevailing method. People who are abducted are also caught repeatedly and re-examined. The aliens seem to be interested in following particular genetic lines from one generation to the next. This is exactly how our scientists carry out genetic research in our laboratories, so this approach is not surprising. I suspect both Jacob and I Hopkins would concur with this hypothesis. It's a plausible explanation within the context of our current scientific paradigms. Playing the devil's advocate, the fact that there does seem to be an obvious cross-generation genetic component suggests the possibility that the genes themselves are primarily responsible for allowing such experiences to manifest within certain individuals. IMO, such a hypothesis is just as reasonable an explanation as compared to conjecturing that the experiences are generated by encounters with extraterrestrial aliens whom it is alleged are interested in particular DNA lineages. I'll say it once again for the record, my conjecture does not mean that such experiences should be considered any less valid, certainly not to the experiencer. I suspect our current understanding of what is considered valid reality is likely to undergo radical changes within the next century or two. Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
On Aug 6, 2009, at 5:32 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From: Mr. Storms According to David Jacob's work, the abductees run in families. I suppose some random catch and release might happen, but this does not seem to be the prevailing method. People who are abducted are also caught repeatedly and re-examined. The aliens seem to be interested in following particular genetic lines from one generation to the next. This is exactly how our scientists carry out genetic research in our laboratories, so this approach is not surprising. I suspect both Jacob and I Hopkins would concur with this hypothesis. It’s a plausible explanation within the context of our current scientific paradigms. Playing the devil’s advocate, the fact that there does seem to be an obvious cross-generation genetic component suggests the possibility that the genes themselves are primarily responsible for allowing such experiences to manifest within certain individuals. IMO, such a hypothesis is just as reasonable an explanation as compared to conjecturing that the experiences are generated by encounters with extraterrestrial aliens whom it is alleged are interested in particular DNA lineages. Come now, Steven, I don't know about your kids, but mine are not similar enough to have the same nonreal experiences. While similar vivid hallucinations run in families, the occasions are very rare. Besides, you ignore all the physical evidence that is consistent with the claimed events. I’ll say it once again for the record, my conjecture does not mean that such experiences should be considered any less valid, certainly not to the experiencer. Either the allies and their claimed behavior and supposed intentions are real, or the claims are only in the imagination, as you argue. To me, the former is important and the latter possibility is trivial. Granted, some people suffer from hallucinations, which are only important to the people who have the experience and to people who study brain function. On the other hand, the reality of alien visitation is important to everyone. I suspect our current understanding of what is considered valid reality is likely to undergo radical changes within the next century or two. I expect this is true. Of course, the UFO issue is not the only one that is being debated these days and will result in significant changes in popular belief. Popular belief is usually many years behind what is known by people who make an effort to understand reality. Why not get a head start on this process? Ed Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
On Aug 6, 2009, at 7:11 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From: Mr. Storms According to David Jacob's work, the abductees run in families. I suppose some random catch and release might happen, but this does not seem to be the prevailing method. People who are abducted are also caught repeatedly and re-examined. The aliens seem to be interested in following particular genetic lines from one generation to the next. This is exactly how our scientists carry out genetic research in our laboratories, so this approach is not surprising. I suspect both Jacob and I Hopkins would concur with this hypothesis. It’s a plausible explanation within the context of our current scientific paradigms. Playing the devil’s advocate, the fact that there does seem to be an obvious cross-generation genetic component suggests the possibility that the genes themselves are primarily responsible for allowing such experiences to manifest within certain individuals. IMO, such a hypothesis is just as reasonable an explanation as compared to conjecturing that the experiences are generated by encounters with extraterrestrial aliens whom it is alleged are interested in particular DNA lineages. Come now, Steven, I don't know about your kids, but mine are not similar enough to have the same nonreal experiences. While similar vivid hallucinations run in families, the occasions are very rare. Besides, you ignore all the physical evidence that is consistent with the claimed events. I would appreciate a clarification on what you are referring to when it is stated there is consistent physical evidence. I just want to be on the same page with you should we continue to ponder this complex issue, particularly since definitions of physical evidence can possibly differ in both subtle and profound ways between individuals. Can you give some examples? The physical evidence consists of parts of space crafts as described by trusted observers, objects removed from abductees as documented by doctors, changes in soil composition and depressions at landing sites, and physical changes in the eye as found by doctors. Identical descriptions of craft and devices by completely independent observers are also important. If we were talking about a normal crime scene, the law would have no trouble coming to a conclusion about what had happened. I’ll say it once again for the record, my conjecture does not mean that such experiences should be considered any less valid, certainly not to the experiencer. Either the allies and their claimed behavior and supposed intentions are real, or the claims are only in the imagination, as you argue. To me, the former is important and the latter possibility is trivial. Granted, some people suffer from hallucinations, which are only important to the people who have the experience and to people who study brain function. On the other hand, the reality of alien visitation is important to everyone. I am surprised to see you seemingly position your conjecture on this matter within such a narrow spectrum, a black white scenario of an either / or position. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but quoting you- the possibility that the genes themselves are primarily responsible for allowing such experiences to manifest within certain individuals. IMO, such a hypothesis is just as reasonable an explanation as compared to conjecturing that the experiences are generated by encounters with extraterrestrial aliens whom it is alleged are interested in particular DNA lineages. Your comment says to me that you separate the real event of an actual encounter with an alien from an imagined encounter. Reality is really a black and white issue in this case. Humans are very good at creating an image of reality in their minds. The issue is always how close is this image to the real world. In the case of events, such as a claim for abduction, either it happened or it was imagined. There is nothing in between as far as I'm concerned. Also, the issue having importance to me is not how many claims are real and how many are imagined. If any are real, this is hugely important. I am also under the impression that you perceive my evolving UFO Abduction Paradigm as being trivial because it seems to suggest that UFO abductees are simply suffering from something akin to vivid imaginations. If that is the case, and please correct me if I've misinterpreted your perceptions on this matter, I would have to say that you have either misunderstood or you are deliberately ignoring the underlying ramifications behind the hypothesis. Personally, I would hardly consider the experiencer paradigm trivial by any stretch of the imagination. What is trivial to me is an imagined abduction. I agree, if imagined abductions were common, that fact would be interesting but not as important as a real abduction. FWIW, I have also never, never, EVER, argued that
RE: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
Apparently, there are claims of some potential abductees being rejected due to age or health. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086sid=aILLOMP8rU34refer=latin_america I can't get a job interview and now, even ET's aren't hiring. This interdimensional age discrimination is just wrong. More evidence of discrimination comes from Brazil in that famous Boas case in which a farmer got abducted and was compelled to engage in coitus with an attractive alien female. I guess I consider it a credible account since regardless of how strange or bizarre or miraculously scary a situation is, some of us guys still are moved by a Primal Urge above all else. The same hottie ( or her clone?) shows up in that book, Hair of the Alien, along with a naked Asian woman. The guy wakes up and finds a long white hair wrapped around his Johnson. DNA sez it's human but very, very weird human. Read the book if you think I'm kidding. Big difference from Greys poking you with long needles, I'd say. If any of you get taken this way, I'd get loud about it and complain, Hey, I want the old way! ( a Barbarella reference). In summary, I'm willing to probe but not be probed. Hope the wife will understand. I did it for my planet.
RE: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
From Mr. Zell: Apparently, there are claims of some potential abductees being rejected due to age or health. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086sid=aILLOMP8rU34refer=latin _america I can't get a job interview and now, even ET's aren't hiring. This interdimensional age discrimination is just wrong. More evidence of discrimination comes from Brazil in that famous Boas case in which a farmer got abducted and was compelled to engage in coitus with an attractive alien female. I guess I consider it a credible account since regardless of how strange or bizarre or miraculously scary a situation is, some of us guys still are moved by a Primal Urge above all else. The same hottie ( or her clone?) shows up in that book, Hair of the Alien, along with a naked Asian woman. The guy wakes up and finds a long white hair wrapped around his Johnson. DNA sez it's human but very, very weird human. Read the book if you think I'm kidding. Big difference from Greys poking you with long needles, I'd say. If any of you get taken this way, I'd get loud about it and complain, Hey, I want the old way! ( a Barbarella reference). In summary, I'm willing to probe but not be probed. Hope the wife will understand. I did it for my planet. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. They will name high schools after you! ;-) I hope Mr. Storms is lurking close by because I suspect he might be amused to know that I would concur with Mr. Zell in the sense that the famous Antonio Boas abduction case does strike me as an authentic catch and release program. I also would conjecture that Mr. Boas was probably not the only subject who was picked up for milking during that time period. The Wiki entry on the Boas incident indirectly hints of the fact that there may very well had been prior incident(s). But of course, alleged prior events were subsequently used by skeptics to suggest that that's where Antonio Boas got the idea for his crazy tale in the first place. So, there ya go. Damned if you do! Damned if you don't! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Villas_Boas FWIW there seems to exist several compelling aspects to this incident that, at least for me, suggest the Boas incident may have been an actual physical occurrence - as compared to my alternative and much more complicated UFO Abduction Paradigm hypothesis which I would classify as being just-as-legitimate of an experience but of a very different kind. Boas did not appear to lose consciousness during the entire abduction scenario. He did not appear to experience any paranormal incidents. For example, he was not floated up into the sky, or made to literally pass through solid walls, as is occasionally described by UFO Abductee / experiencers. Antonia Boas was not subject to any manner of psychic tests such as where an alien gets very close to one's face and stares into one's eyes. Such close encounters subsequently cause the experiencer to feel as if an overpowering mind-meld is in progress, where their own identity and that of the alien are essentially becoming one and the same. Mr. Boas appears to have been abducted - once. All the occupants did during his single abduction was take blood samples, and his seed - collected the old [fashion] way with the assistance of an exotic looking lass sporting bright red pubic hair. For his services the occupants gave Mr. Boas a quick tour of the ship before releasing him back into the wild. Since this was a one-shot deal, so to speak, there were no follow-up consultations where Mr. Boas gets to meet sickly hybrids, where he is told to extend his love to them as if they were one of his own children. Neither was Mr. Boas shown any emotionally devastating scenes of our planet experiencing catastrophic disasters. There are other curious factors that seem to lend potential authenticity. Mr. Boas claims he was led in to a room where a gas was pumped into it, making him temporarily ill. It seems plausible to speculate that during this time Mr. Boas' physiology was being acclimated, possibly to the same atmospheric pressure and elemental components that the occupants are more acclimated to. I would speculate that the occupants came from a planet whose atmosphere may have been of a much higher pressure than what we are use to. For example, their atmosphere likely contained different mixtures of oxygen and nitrogen. Such a change in atmospheric density might also help explain why the occupants didn't vocalize or sound the same as we, possibly because the atmospheric density caused them to evolve their audio communication needs (vocal chords?) to better match their own atmospheric conditions. Perhaps some of the most profound revelations that the Antonio Boas incident suggests is the possibility that humanoids, specifically humanoids possessing a majority of homo sapien-like genes may be more prevalent within our corner
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Rejectee Paradigm
According to David Jacob's work, the abductees run in families. I suppose some random catch and release might happen, but this does not seem to be the prevailing method. People who are abducted are also caught repeatedly and re-examined. The aliens seem to be interested in following particular genetic lines from one generation to the next. This is exactly how our scientists carry out genetic research in our laboratories, so this approach is not surprising. Ed On Aug 5, 2009, at 7:53 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From Mr. Zell: Apparently, there are claims of some potential abductees being rejected due to age or health. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086sid=aILLOMP8rU34refer=latin_america I can't get a job interview and now, even ET's aren't hiring. This interdimensional age discrimination is just wrong. More evidence of discrimination comes from Brazil in that famous Boas case in which a farmer got abducted and was compelled to engage in coitus with an attractive alien female. I guess I consider it a credible account since regardless of how strange or bizarre or miraculously scary a situation is, some of us guys still are moved by a Primal Urge above all else. The same hottie ( or her clone?) shows up in that book, Hair of the Alien, along with a naked Asian woman. The guy wakes up and finds a long white hair wrapped around his Johnson. DNA sez it's human but very, very weird human. Read the book if you think I'm kidding. Big difference from Greys poking you with long needles, I'd say. If any of you get taken this way, I'd get loud about it and complain, Hey, I want the old way! ( a Barbarella reference). In summary, I'm willing to probe but not be probed. Hope the wife will understand. I did it for my planet. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. They will name high schools after you! ;-) I hope Mr. Storms is lurking close by because I suspect he might be amused to know that I would concur with Mr. Zell in the sense that the famous Antonio Boas abduction case does strike me as an authentic catch and release program. I also would conjecture that Mr. Boas was probably not the only subject who was picked up for milking during that time period. The Wiki entry on the Boas incident indirectly hints of the fact that there may very well had been prior incident(s). But of course, alleged prior events were subsequently used by skeptics to suggest that that’s where Antonio Boas got the idea for his crazy tale in the first place. So, there ya go. Damned if you do! Damned if you don't! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Villas_Boas FWIW there seems to exist several compelling aspects to this incident that, at least for me, suggest the Boas incident may have been an actual physical occurrence - as compared to my alternative and much more complicated UFO Abduction Paradigm hypothesis which I would classify as being just-as-legitimate of an experience but of a very different kind. Boas did not appear to lose consciousness during the entire abduction scenario. He did not appear to experience any paranormal incidents. For example, he was not floated up into the sky, or made to literally pass through solid walls, as is occasionally described by UFO Abductee / experiencers. Antonia Boas was not subject to any manner of psychic tests such as where an alien gets very close to one's face and stares into one's eyes. Such “close encounters” subsequently cause the experiencer to feel as if an overpowering mind-meld is in progress, where their own identity and that of the alien are essentially becoming one and the same. Mr. Boas appears to have been abducted - once. All the occupants did during his single abduction was take blood samples, and his seed – collected the old [fashion] way with the assistance of an exotic looking lass sporting bright red pubic hair. For his services the occupants gave Mr. Boas a quick tour of the ship before releasing him back into the wild. Since this was a one-shot deal, so to speak, there were no follow-up consultations where Mr. Boas gets to meet sickly hybrids, where he is told to extend his love to them as if they were one of his own children. Neither was Mr. Boas shown any emotionally devastating scenes of our planet experiencing catastrophic disasters. There are other curious factors that seem to lend potential authenticity. Mr. Boas claims he was led in to a room where a gas was pumped into it, making him temporarily ill. It seems plausible to speculate that during this time Mr. Boas’ physiology was being acclimated, possibly to the same atmospheric pressure and elemental components that the occupants are more acclimated to. I would speculate that the occupants came from a planet whose atmosphere may have been of a much higher pressure than what we are use to. For example, their atmosphere likely
