Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

I think that must be an excited state decay. But I don't know. For a  
ground state decay, that's very high. What's the mass defect?


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2012, at 12:55 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:


I sited this link in my poat, you must have missed it.

http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain

See the PPIII section at the end of list.
Cheers: Axil

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax > wrote:
I think the Be-8 ground state decay to 2 He-4 is at about the 93 KeV  
figure. Not the higher figure. Where did you get 18 MeV?





My understanding is that 4D -> Be-8 + about 47.6 MeV, which is  
initially as a nuclear excited state. Some of that may be emitted as  
a series of photons. If the Be-8 nucleus lasts long enough, it will  
decay to the ground state, leaving only the 93 KeV to show up as  
dual He-4 kinetic energy. If the initial fusion was within a BEC,  
there may also be 4 electrons to share the energy. It's a stretch,  
but this is a rough idea of how TSC fusion might meet the Hagelstein  
limit for charged particle radiation in the FPHE. I'm not saying I  
believe it!


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:


What I don’t understand is if this is possible:

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)

2 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
If this reaction is possible, and if this is what recombination is,  
where does the 18 MeV come from.


Axil

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Axil Axil   
wrote:
When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can  
comfortably assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy  
input.


This is a bad assumption.

If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a  
positron and a neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe  
someone can help.


http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain

In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be  
replaced by the first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process

Explicitly

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)

2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions  
involver electron and hydrogen capture.


3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous  
decay...)


4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)

We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium  
atoms but about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.


Where does this energy come from?

J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion  
process before a third helium atom is fused. He calls this process  
recombination as the Be8 fissions back to two helium atoms.



Cheers:   Axil



On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery   
wrote:
Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and  
emit photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.


OK, so lets ask a real simple question:

When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it  
and the electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a  
very short period of time before photons are emitted but let's talk  
about just the short period of time.  The diameter of the atoms  
presumably increases.  Does the gas pressure increase during that  
interval?


Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the  
electrons away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does  
the ionized gas pressure increase during that interval?


Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a  
magnetic mirror type bottle) used in conjunction with a solid tube  
so that the non-conducting (because non-ionized) gas phase is  
confined by the solid tube and the conducting (because) ionized gas  
phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:


When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can  
comfortably assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy  
input.  However, what if the plasma has expanded during the high  
pressure phase, ie:  done work against the magnetic confinement  
(like, oh, I don't know, generating an electrical power spike in a  
conductor associated with the magnetic field).  Does that mean the  
"free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return to their  
ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that  
they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where  
did the electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to  
substitute for them?

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[Axil Axil]

I sited this link in my poat, you must have missed it.

http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain

See the PPIII section at the end of list.
Cheers: Axil

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
wrote:

> I think the Be-8 ground state decay to 2 He-4 is at about the 93 KeV
> figure. Not the higher figure. Where did you get 18 MeV?
>
>


>
>
> My understanding is that 4D -> Be-8 + about 47.6 MeV, which is initially
> as a nuclear excited state. Some of that may be emitted as a series of
> photons. If the Be-8 nucleus lasts long enough, it will decay to the ground
> state, leaving only the 93 KeV to show up as dual He-4 kinetic energy. If
> the initial fusion was within a BEC, there may also be 4 electrons to share
> the energy. It's a stretch, but this is a rough idea of how TSC fusion
> might meet the Hagelstein limit for charged particle radiation in the FPHE.
> I'm not saying I believe it!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
> What I don’t understand is if this is possible:
>
> 1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
>  2 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
>
> If this reaction is possible, and if this is what recombination is, where
> does the 18 MeV come from.
>  Axil
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
>
>> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
>> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.
>>
>> This is a bad assumption.
>>
>> If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a positron
>> and a neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe someone can help.
>>
>> http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain
>>
>> In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be replaced
>> by the first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process
>>
>> Explicitly
>>
>> 1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
>>
>> 2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions involver
>> electron and hydrogen capture.
>>
>> 3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)
>>
>> 4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
>>
>> We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium atoms
>> but about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.
>>
>> Where does this energy come from?
>>
>> J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion process
>> before a third helium atom is fused. He calls this process recombination as
>> the Be8 fissions back to two helium atoms.
>>
>>
>> Cheers:   Axil
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>>
>>> Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit
>>> photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.
>>>
>>> OK, so lets ask a real simple question:
>>>
>>> When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the
>>> electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period
>>> of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short
>>> period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the
>>> gas pressure increase during that interval?
>>>
>>> Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the
>>> electrons away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the
>>> ionized gas pressure increase during that interval?
>>>
>>> Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic
>>> mirror  type bottle) used
>>> in conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting (because
>>> non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the conducting
>>> (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:
>>>
>>> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
>>> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what
>>> if the plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work
>>> against the magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an
>>> electrical power spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).
>>>  Does that mean the "free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return
>>> to their ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that
>>> they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where did the
>>> electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for
>>> them?
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

I think the Be-8 ground state decay to 2 He-4 is at about the 93 KeV  
figure. Not the higher figure. Where did you get 18 MeV?


My understanding is that 4D -> Be-8 + about 47.6 MeV, which is  
initially as a nuclear excited state. Some of that may be emitted as a  
series of photons. If the Be-8 nucleus lasts long enough, it will  
decay to the ground state, leaving only the 93 KeV to show up as dual  
He-4 kinetic energy. If the initial fusion was within a BEC, there may  
also be 4 electrons to share the energy. It's a stretch, but this is a  
rough idea of how TSC fusion might meet the Hagelstein limit for  
charged particle radiation in the FPHE. I'm not saying I believe it!


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:


What I don’t understand is if this is possible:

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)

2 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
If this reaction is possible, and if this is what recombination is,  
where does the 18 MeV come from.


Axil

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:
When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can  
comfortably assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy  
input.


This is a bad assumption.

If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a  
positron and a neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe  
someone can help.


http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain

In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be  
replaced by the first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process

Explicitly

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)

2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions  
involver electron and hydrogen capture.


3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)

4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)

We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium  
atoms but about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.


Where does this energy come from?

J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion process  
before a third helium atom is fused. He calls this process  
recombination as the Be8 fissions back to two helium atoms.



Cheers:   Axil



On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery   
wrote:
Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and  
emit photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.


OK, so lets ask a real simple question:

When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and  
the electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very  
short period of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about  
just the short period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably  
increases.  Does the gas pressure increase during that interval?


Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the  
electrons away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does  
the ionized gas pressure increase during that interval?


Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a  
magnetic mirror type bottle) used in conjunction with a solid tube  
so that the non-conducting (because non-ionized) gas phase is  
confined by the solid tube and the conducting (because) ionized gas  
phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:


When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can  
comfortably assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy  
input.  However, what if the plasma has expanded during the high  
pressure phase, ie:  done work against the magnetic confinement  
(like, oh, I don't know, generating an electrical power spike in a  
conductor associated with the magnetic field).  Does that mean the  
"free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return to their  
ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that  
they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where  
did the electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to  
substitute for them?

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[James Bowery]

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 4:43 PM, David Roberson  wrote:

> I doubt that the pressure would change very much in the case of excited
> atoms since this is a gas.  The pressure depends more upon the number of
> atoms than their size.
>

While true, that is different from the statement "I doubt that any change
in the pressure would be due to any change in the size of the atoms."

The second question probably depends upon whether or not the gas is heated
> up by the ionization.  If kinetic energy is given to the gas atoms, they
> will move faster and the pressure would rise.
>

Again, that is different from the statement, "The ionized gas pressure
would not change due to ionization per se."


> The third question is complex.  If work was done by the gas during the
> process before the gas neutralized, then the pressure would be less along
> with the temperature.
>

Then consider work done compressing another gas reservoir.  Certainly we
can expect that the ionized gas chamber would decrease in temperature and
pressure as it increased in volume while doing work against the other gas
reservoir.  However, this doesn't do us any good because when the electrons
fall back to their ground state and neutralize the positive ions, the
energy originally input to ionize is re-emitted as photons of,
presumably(?) the same total energy as that originally required to ionize
the gas atoms.

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[David Roberson]

No likely to be true.  Both paths should have the same yields.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions


What I don’t understand is if this is possible:
1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
2 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
If this reaction is possible, and if this is what recombination is, where does 
the 18 MeV come from.
Axil


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:


When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably assert 
that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  

This is a bad assumption.
If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a positron and a 
neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe someone can help.
http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain
In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be replaced by the 
first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process
Explicitly
1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions involver 
electron and hydrogen capture.
 
3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)
4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium atoms but 
about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.
Where does this energy come from?
J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion process before a 
third helium atom is fused. He calls this process recombination as the Be8 
fissions back to two helium atoms.

Cheers:   Axil




On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit photons. 
 You know, xenon lamps etc.


OK, so lets ask a real simple question:


When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the 
electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period of 
time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short period of 
time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the gas pressure 
increase during that interval?


Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the electrons away 
and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the ionized gas pressure 
increase during that interval?


Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic mirror 
type bottle) used in conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting 
(because non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the 
conducting (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:


When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably assert 
that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what if the 
plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work against the 
magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an electrical power 
spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).  Does that mean the 
"free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return to their ground states 
and give up exactly the same amount of energy that they would have in the 
absence of having done work?  If not, where did the electrons go and where do 
the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for them?






 

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[David Roberson]

Interesting questions.  Let me give it a try.
I doubt that the pressure would change very much in the case of excited atoms 
since this is a gas.  The pressure depends more upon the number of atoms than 
their size.
The second question probably depends upon whether or not the gas is heated up 
by the ionization.  If kinetic energy is given to the gas atoms, they will move 
faster and the pressure would rise.
The third question is complex.  If work was done by the gas during the process 
before the gas neutralized, then the pressure would be less along with the 
temperature.  I consider each atom independent to a great degree in space.  The 
electrons would behave the same as before unless they are in different motion.  
If this is true the Doppler effect will show up.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: James Bowery 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 1:48 pm
Subject: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions


Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit photons. 
 You know, xenon lamps etc.


OK, so lets ask a real simple question:


When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the 
electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period of 
time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short period of 
time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the gas pressure 
increase during that interval?


Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the electrons away 
and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the ionized gas pressure 
increase during that interval?


Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic mirror 
type bottle) used in conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting 
(because non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the 
conducting (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:


When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably assert 
that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what if the 
plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work against the 
magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an electrical power 
spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).  Does that mean the 
"free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return to their ground states 
and give up exactly the same amount of energy that they would have in the 
absence of having done work?  If not, where did the electrons go and where do 
the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for them?
 

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[pagnucco]

James,

I am assuming that your question is motivated by the controveral Papp
claims.  While I have not had time to do more than peruse the following
speculative papers, perhaps they are relevant, but I am not sure they are
correct.

"Ion trapping and sonoluminescence"
ABSTRACT: Sonoluminescence is the intriguing phenomenon of strong light
flashes from tiny bubbles in a liquid. The bubbles are driven by an
ultrasonic wave and need to be filled with noble gas atoms (c.f. Fig. 1).
Approximating the emitted light by blackbody radiation indicates very high
temperatures. Although sonoluminescence has been studied extensively, the
origin of the sudden energy concentration within the bubble collapse phase
is still controversial" (p.21)
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/physics/iqt/ECTI/index_files/Booklet3.pdf

"Composite quantum systems and environment-induced heating"
Abstract. In recent years, much attention has been paid to the development
of techniques which transfer trapped particles to very low temperatures.
Here we focus our attention on a heating mechanism which contributes to
the finite temperature limit in laser sideband cooling experiments with
trapped ions. It is emphasized that similar heating processes might be
present
in a variety of composite quantum systems whose components couple
individually to different environments. For example, quantum optical
heating effects might contribute significantly to the very high
temperatures which occur during the collapse phase in sonoluminescence
experiments. It might even be possible to design composite quantum
systems, like atom-cavity systems, such that they continuously emit
photons even in the absence of external driving."
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1110.1551.pdf

"Quantum Optical Heating in Sonoluminescence Experiments"
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.1121

"Sonoluminescence and quantum optical heating"
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0904.0885

"ENVIRONMENT-INDUCED HEATING IN SONOLUMINESCENCE EXPERIMENTS"
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.7022.pdf

"Energy concentration in composite quantum systems"
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0909.5337

-- Lou Pagnucco


James Bowery wrote:
> Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit
> photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.
>
> OK, so lets ask a real simple question:
>
> When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the
> electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short
> period
> of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short
> period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the
> gas pressure increase during that interval?
>
> Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the electrons
> away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the ionized gas
> pressure increase during that interval?
>
> Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic
> mirror  type bottle) used in
> conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting (because
> non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the conducting
> (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:
>
> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However,
> what
> if the plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work
> against the magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an
> electrical power spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).
>  Does that mean the "free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to
> return
> to their ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that
> they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where did the
> electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for
> them?
>

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[Axil Axil]

What I don’t understand is if this is possible:

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
2 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)

If this reaction is possible, and if this is what recombination is, where
does the 18 MeV come from.
Axil

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.
>
> This is a bad assumption.
>
> If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a positron
> and a neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe someone can help.
>
> http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain
>
> In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be replaced
> by the first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process
>
> Explicitly
>
> 1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)
>
> 2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions involver
> electron and hydrogen capture.
>
> 3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)
>
> 4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)
>
> We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium atoms but
> about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.
>
> Where does this energy come from?
>
> J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion process
> before a third helium atom is fused. He calls this process recombination as
> the Be8 fissions back to two helium atoms.
>
>
> Cheers:   Axil
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>
>> Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit
>> photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.
>>
>> OK, so lets ask a real simple question:
>>
>> When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the
>> electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period
>> of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short
>> period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the
>> gas pressure increase during that interval?
>>
>> Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the
>> electrons away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the
>> ionized gas pressure increase during that interval?
>>
>> Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic
>> mirror  type bottle) used
>> in conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting (because
>> non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the conducting
>> (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:
>>
>> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
>> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what
>> if the plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work
>> against the magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an
>> electrical power spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).
>>  Does that mean the "free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return
>> to their ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that
>> they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where did the
>> electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for
>> them?
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[Axil Axil]

When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.

This is a bad assumption.

If two helium atoms fuse about 18 MeV is produced along with a positron and
a neutrino. I do not understand this reaction. Maybe someone can help.

http://everything2.com/title/proton-proton+chain

In the  PPIII stellar fusion reaction, Steps 1 through 3 can be replaced by
the first half of the triple alpha stellar fusion process

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple-alpha_process

Explicitly

1 - 4He + 4He → 8Be(-93.7kEV)

2 – 8Be + proton → B8 (0.135 MeV)   - other possible reactions involver
electron and hydrogen capture.

3 - B8 -> Be8 + positron + neutrino (followed by spontaneous decay...)

4 - Be8 -> 2He4(18.074 MeV)

We start out with two helium atoms and we end up with two helium atoms but
about 19MeV of additional energy is produced.

Where does this energy come from?

J. Rohner says that he stops the triple alpha stellar fusion process before
a third helium atom is fused. He calls this process recombination as the
Be8 fissions back to two helium atoms.


Cheers:   Axil


On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit
> photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.
>
> OK, so lets ask a real simple question:
>
> When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the
> electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period
> of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short
> period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the
> gas pressure increase during that interval?
>
> Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the electrons
> away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the ionized gas
> pressure increase during that interval?
>
> Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic
> mirror  type bottle) used
> in conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting (because
> non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the conducting
> (because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:
>
> When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
> assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what
> if the plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work
> against the magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an
> electrical power spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).
>  Does that mean the "free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return
> to their ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that
> they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where did the
> electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for
> them?
>

[Vo]:Question About Conservation of Energy In Plasma Transitions

[James Bowery]

Let's say you've got a xenon atom.  It likes to absorb energy and emit
photons.  You know, xenon lamps etc.

OK, so lets ask a real simple question:

When a tube filled with xenon gas has some energy pumped into it and the
electrons go to higher orbitals -- yes this happens for a very short period
of time before photons are emitted but let's talk about just the short
period of time.  The diameter of the atoms presumably increases.  Does the
gas pressure increase during that interval?

Now lets say that the energy is sufficient to actually strip the electrons
away and form an ionized gas for a short interval.  Does the ionized gas
pressure increase during that interval?

Now lets talk about really-simple magnetic confinement (say a magnetic
mirror  type bottle) used in
conjunction with a solid tube so that the non-conducting (because
non-ionized) gas phase is confined by the solid tube and the conducting
(because) ionized gas phase is confined by the magnetic bottle:

When the electrons fall back into their ground states we can comfortably
assert that the photons emitted will equal the energy input.  However, what
if the plasma has expanded during the high pressure phase, ie:  done work
against the magnetic confinement (like, oh, I don't know, generating an
electrical power spike in a conductor associated with the magnetic field).
 Does that mean the "free" electrons of the plasma no longer want to return
to their ground states and give up exactly the same amount of energy that
they would have in the absence of having done work?  If not, where did the
electrons go and where do the xenon atoms get electrons to substitute for
them?