Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
From: Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 7:17:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too 2011/9/9 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com: The engine that truly drives the growth of jobs in the US economy is innovation and its handmaiden, new small company establishment and growth. Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more important to create automation and robots who does the productive work. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation. As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to create jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of median people by introducing basic income. Basic Income for all, men, women, even children. Money should be created on a human basis. This is the solution! http://live.worldbank.org/open-forum-gender/ideas/basic-income-all Vote by adding your name. Most popular idea for achieving more equality will be discussed by a panel arranged by the World Bank on Sept. 21. Harry
RE: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
From Harry Veeder Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more important to create automation and robots who does the productive work. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation. As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to create jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of median people by introducing basic income. I disagree. Vehemently so. Perhaps I should actually say that the above premise misses an important point that I will attempt to clarify - as I see it. It is inevitable that outsourcing, which is then permanently followed by automation robotics is what is in store for us, what the above comment completely misses is how will we go about employing increasing numbers of individuals who have been misplaced as a result of their traditional jobs having been outsourced and eventually taken over by automation and robotics. A subtle point the above premise may have gotten completely wrong is the fact that as automation takes over more and more jobs in traditional manufacturing sectors it is NOT necessarily true that these misplaced workers will end up being reemployed in various service sector areas of the economy. The problem many politicians seem oblivious to and subsequently refuse to acknowledge to their constituents is the fact that increasing numbers of service sector jobs are ALSO ending up being automated. This is happening because it is far cheaper for companies providing various services to automate rather than to continue employing troublesome people who need expensive health insurance and other bennies like unions that management hates. For example, the last time I called my cable company to complain about the fact that my internet service was down I never talked to a human. The ENTIRE phone conversation was handled through a combination of voice recognition and recorded responses that guided me step-by-step through a complex process that helped me restore internet access. At my place of employment, more and more individuals we employ for computer related work are contractors hired from India and China - (Outsourcing). Sooner or later many of these outsourced jobs will end up being automated as well. Other service sectors that one might think would be impervious to the ravages of automation are also in danger of being replaced, such as the lawyer industry. Specialized search engines can take over many tasks previously employed by lawyers whose job had been to search text for various rulings. National wealth will NOT be created if the ONLY thing we see happen to our nation is the inevitable implementation of more and more automation. All that will produce is increasing numbers of individuals thrown out of job market where they may remain permanently unemployed or underemployed as they desperately take up the only kinds of jobs they can find, such as flipping burgers at McDonalds or manning cash registers at Wall Mart or Office Depot. Time after time, amount of income these displaced workers end up earning after being reemployed is far less than what they were previously earning, and this inevitably results in the fact that they will not earn enough income to be able to afford the very fruits that automation is supposed to offer them. This issue has been going on for years and it is insidious. It is a major contributing factor to our current economic woes. It is vividly described in detail by author, Martin Ford in his book The Lights in the Tunnel which Mr. Rothwell originally brought to our attention not long ago. http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/ It's worth reading. As a nation, as a world, we will have to devise ways in which to both evenly and fairly redistribute income (currency) amongst the population regardless of whether these individual are employed in the traditional sense or not. Our economies are consumer based. This means that if too many remain unemployed they cannot consume anything, and our economy tanks permanently. It will make no difference if automation produces everything we need if too many individuals have no means at their disposal in which to earn a decent income in which to earn goods and services that end up being created via through automation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: A subtle point the above premise may have gotten completely wrong is the fact that as automation takes over more and more jobs in traditional manufacturing sectors it is NOT necessarily true that these misplaced workers will end up being reemployed in various service sector areas of the economy. The problem many politicians seem oblivious to and subsequently refuse to acknowledge to their constituents is the fact that increasing numbers of service sector jobs are ALSO ending up being automated. Yes, the pace of progress has picked up. Progress in computers and robots was stalled for a long time. In the 1960s, some experts believed we might have something like the HAL computer portrayed in the movie 2001 by the year 2000. That did not happen. Many people went to the opposite extreme, saying that computers will never be able to translate, drive automobiles, or think in any sense of the word. Now we have effective translation and prototype antonymous automobiles (Google) and artificial intelligence in the Watson computer far ahead of what I expected a few years ago. I do not know the state of the art in robotics but I expect it will soon improve rapidly. This is bound to have a profound impact on all sectors of the economy. *All sectors* -- that's Johnson's point. The notion that we can go from manufacturing to service reminds me of Asimov's classic short story The Last Question which begins with two inebriated scientists arguing about entropy and the fate of the universe: . . . What I say is that a sun won’t last forever. That’s all I’m saying. We’re safe for twenty billion years, but then what? Lupov pointed a slightly shaky finger at the other. And don’t say we’ll switch to another sun. There was silence for a while. Adell put his glass to his lips only occasionally, and Lupov’s eyes slowly closed. They rested. Then Lupov’s eyes snapped open. You’re thinking we’ll switch to another sun when ours is done, aren’t you? I’m not thinking. Sure you are. You’re weak on logic, that’s the trouble with you. You’re like the guy in the story who was caught in a sudden shower and who ran to a grove of trees and got under one. He wasn’t worried, you see, because he figured when one tree got wet through, he would just get under another one. I get it, said Adell. Don’t shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
One can make the case that displaced old workers can't be retrained, and so should be kept alive on transfer payments, but their children should be able to take part in the new economy, as software workers, so there should never be a permanently displaced class. Sent from my iPhone. On Sep 10, 2011, at 10:14, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: From Harry Veeder Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more important to create automation and robots who does the productive work. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation. As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to create jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of median people by introducing basic income. I disagree. Vehemently so. Perhaps I should actually say that the above premise misses an important point that I will attempt to clarify – as I see it. It is inevitable that outsourcing, which is then permanently followed by automation robotics is what is in store for us, what the above comment completely misses is how will we go about employing increasing numbers of individuals who have been misplaced as a result of their traditional jobs having been outsourced and eventually taken over by automation and robotics. A subtle point the above premise may have gotten completely wrong is the fact that as automation takes over more and more jobs in traditional manufacturing sectors it is NOT necessarily true that these misplaced workers will end up being reemployed in various service sector areas of the economy. The problem many politicians seem oblivious to and subsequently refuse to acknowledge to their constituents is the fact that increasing numbers of service sector jobs are ALSO ending up being automated. This is happening because it is far cheaper for companies providing various services to automate rather than to continue employing troublesome people who need expensive health insurance and other bennies like unions that management hates. For example, the last time I called my cable company to complain about the fact that my internet service was down I never talked to a human. The ENTIRE phone conversation was handled through a combination of voice recognition and recorded responses that guided me step-by-step through a complex process that helped me restore internet access. At my place of employment, more and more individuals we employ for computer related work are contractors hired from India and China – (Outsourcing). Sooner or later many of these “outsourced” jobs will end up being automated as well. Other service sectors that one might think would be impervious to the ravages of automation are also in danger of being replaced, such as the lawyer industry. Specialized search engines can take over many tasks previously employed by lawyers whose job had been to search text for various rulings. National wealth will NOT be created if the ONLY thing we see happen to our nation is the inevitable implementation of more and more automation. All that will produce is increasing numbers of individuals thrown out of job market where they may remain permanently unemployed or underemployed as they desperately take up the only kinds of jobs they can find, such as flipping burgers at McDonalds or manning cash registers at Wall Mart or Office Depot. Time after time, amount of income these displaced workers end up earning after being reemployed is far less than what they were previously earning, and this inevitably results in the fact that they will not earn enough income to be able to afford the very fruits that automation is supposed to offer them. This issue has been going on for years and it is insidious. It is a major contributing factor to our current economic woes. It is vividly described in detail by author, Martin Ford in his book The Lights in the Tunnel which Mr. Rothwell originally brought to our attention not long ago. http://www.thelightsinthetunnel.com/ It's worth reading. As a nation, as a world, we will have to devise ways in which to both evenly and fairly redistribute income (currency) amongst the population regardless of whether these individual are employed in the traditional sense or not. Our economies are consumer based. This means that if too many remain unemployed they cannot consume anything, and our economy tanks permanently. It will make no difference if automation produces everything we need if too many individuals have no means at their disposal in which to earn a decent income in which to earn goods and services that end up being created via through automation. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:09:17 -0400: Hi, [snip] I get it, said Adell. Dont shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too. This is of course not true. New stars are being born all the time. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: I get it, said Adell. Don’t shout. When the sun is done, the other stars will be gone, too. This is of course not true. New stars are being born all the time. They know that. The basic point remains valid. Read the whole story: http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm - Jed
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
The large mufti-national companies are not where new jobs come from. These companies will usually spread any increase in their work forces throughout the world with only a small fraction allocated to the US. So government incentives that are targeted to advantage this corporate category is not productive or cost effective. The engine that truly drives the growth of jobs in the US economy is innovation and its handmaiden, new small company establishment and growth. The underfunding of the US patent system during the last decade has nearly crippled commercialization of new ideas in the US which in tern has led to a increasing erosion of the US jobs base. This last Thursday, the House of representatives voted to rewrite the 60-year-old patent law to give inventors a better shot of obtaining patents in a timely manner and bringing the U.S. patent system in line with those of other industrialized nations. The legislation also takes steps to help the underfunded U.S. Patent and Trademark Office deal with a backlog that forces inventors to wait three years to get a decision on patent applications and has swamped the agency with some 1.2 million pending applications. Another drag on innovation and associated American prosperity is the restrictions placed on immigration that have been set in place since the 9/11 attack. The worlds best and brightest have been largely excluded from setting up new companies that would exploit their innovative ideas. During the Clinton administration, new small company formation mostly in the high tech and internet areas was instrumental in the production of 20,000,000 jobs. The anti-innovation policies set in place by government during the 2000's was one cause in a great reduction in the formation of small companies and the jobs that spring from them. Easing the patent process is one big step that will help the jobs problem in the US. On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 8:14 PM, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: He is going to streamline the patent process. I hope he takes personal charge and helps Rossi get his patent in the USA. I cant help myself, I love the man. Great speech, he is a war time president, at war with the collapse of America. I wish I could counsel him on cold fusion with Jed. That would be a dream. Obama, we in the new energy field are trying to make your dreams come true. Frank Znidarsic
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
2011/9/9 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com: The engine that truly drives the growth of jobs in the US economy is innovation and its handmaiden, new small company establishment and growth. Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more important to create automation and robots who does the productive work. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation. As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to create jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of median people by introducing basic income. I think that this is more and more the picture of the modern economy. Jobs are just out of fashion, because most of the wealth is produced by automation. This should be the reason why basic income (ca. $2000 per month) should be urgent goal, because without basic income, labor market will develop more and more into direction that humans compete against robots. And this is not the competition we do not wish for. Basic income would also make labor markets very flexible, therefore it will give perfect ground for breeding innovations, because it encourages developing automation rather than hiring people to do robots' work. And also basic income removes all the financial barriers from creative people to employ themselves by founding new small companies. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too
Yes has you read Lights in a Tunnel it is shareware and goes through this. Would free energy mean more or less jobs, perhaps Jed knows. The population bomb did not detonate in 1990 as predicted by Urlick. I have a great deal of hope for the future. Frank z -Original Message- From: Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Sep 9, 2011 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:I love Obama, great speach on jobs, patents too 2011/9/9 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com: The engine that truly drives the growth of jobs in the US economy is innovation and its handmaiden, new small company establishment and growth. Actually, creating jobs is rather irrelevant goal, because it is more mportant to create automation and robots who does the productive ork. Of course, creating automation, does return into innovation. As the wealth is acquired from automation, then it is possible to reate jobs into service sector by boosting the purchasing power of edian people by introducing basic income. I think that this is more and more the picture of the modern economy. obs are just out of fashion, because most of the wealth is produced y automation. This should be the reason why basic income (ca. $2000 er month) should be urgent goal, because without basic income, labor arket will develop more and more into direction that humans compete gainst robots. And this is not the competition we do not wish for. Basic income would also make labor markets very flexible, therefore it ill give perfect ground for breeding innovations, because it ncourages developing automation rather than hiring people to do obots' work. And also basic income removes all the financial barriers rom creative people to employ themselves by founding new small ompanies. –Jouni
