Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
At 11:38 PM 8/20/2012, Kelley Trezise wrote: Nicely done. The most likely conclusion to the Papp Engine story is that there is nothing there. Papp retired after tinkering with toys and then luring in investors and the Rohner bro's took up the thread. Nothing will ever come of the Papp engine other than unrequited expectations. It has been said before, and is worth repeating, "A sucker is born every minute." Rather inspiring, I must say, as it suggests there is a plentitude of fools that I too might bilk. Should a fool and his money necessarily be parted for their, and society's own good? I highly favor prosecution of fraud, where there is sound evidence of it, and I mean criminal fraud. Often investors don't have the resources to pursue civil fraud. Criminal prosecution should be done to protect the public. I also favor civil pursuit of defamation charges, where a business is damaged by allegations that they are engaged in fraud. By the way, amusing detail: John Rohner -- and Stirling Allen of PESN -- have complained about Bob Rohner's getting youtube to take down all of John's videos, even those he shot himself. I'm surprised to see that Stirling Allen doesn't know about DCMA takedown notices. Youtube cannot hire lawyers to research copyright! Rather, they follow the DCMA procedure. If you think someone is infringing on your copyright, you can send a takedown notice to Youtube. They are obligated to take down the video, and will only refuse if they have *strong reason to believe* that your claim is bogus. Essentially, Stirling's comment about "innocent until proven guilty" is misplaced. The sender of the takedown notice is presumed innocent. They will normally take down the video. If they do that, they are not, themselves, liable for copyright violation! It's a safe harbor. Absent such a notice, they have little responsibility. Can you imagine them having to investigate all the videos they host? However, filing a false DCMA takedown notice can have some legal consequences. More to the point here, John, could file a counter-claim, that, yes, he has the legal right to post those videos, and he can do this for any video he thinks is his. He could actually do it for any video, but ... I wouldn't recommend that. He'd be entering a seriously hazardous territory, legally. If a counterclaim is filed, Youtube will generally put the video back up. And then they will wait for a court order. Bob would have to get one, and John could defend. The law actually does provide for "innocent until proven guilty," but you have to use due process. John makes a big deal out of Bob violating the TeslaTech copyright, but, in fact, if TeslaTech doesn't object, there is no violation. People get nuts about this, and it looks like John loves to find stuff to toss at his brother. I wonder what they were like as kids. Big brother: Look, a cowpie! Next you know it's all over the brother, one or the other. Or both, with the parents trying to figure out whose fault it is, a lost cause. Sisters can do this, too
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Nicely done. The most likely conclusion to the Papp Engine story is that there is nothing there. Papp retired after tinkering with toys and then luring in investors and the Rohner bro's took up the thread. Nothing will ever come of the Papp engine other than unrequited expectations. It has been said before, and is worth repeating, "A sucker is born every minute." Rather inspiring, I must say, as it suggests there is a plentitude of fools that I too might bilk. Should a fool and his money necessarily be parted for their, and society's own good? - Original Message - From: James Bowery To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine? Erratum: "the Rohner brothers were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Rohner" should (of course) read: "the Rohner brothers were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Papp"
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Collapsed Matter. No fraud. No conspiracy theories. Call it Inverted Rydberg Matter, call them "Super Atoms", they create blueshifted, high frequency radiation at their surface able to rip apart any matter in their vicinity. They all behave the same way. Papp knew the coil needed to stay energized to collect these charged particles else the machine may quickly self-destruct - that is the secret only he knew. They consume matter and energy and release energy. They can grow and shrink resulting in temporary inversions. On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:59 AM, James Bowery wrote: > There are no good explanations for the Papp phenomenon. One isn't simply > talking about the veracity of two men signing an affidavit but of > world-class experts in high power machinery who actually fabricated the > device attested by the two men. We can ignore, for the sake of argument, > all of the midwestern investors who were from a long tradition of agrarian > self-sufficiency which featured a great deal of on-the-spot fabrication of > make-shift inventions to get the job done without the support of urban > infrastructure. Let's just talk about these 5 people (excluding, of > course, Papp himeself). One might be convinced that the Rohner brothers > were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Rohner but one cannot be > convinced that Rohner Machine Works was so inept as to mistake negative net > work from one of their own machines for 100 horsepower. > > So let's run with the Rohner conspiracy theory: > > The two highest-likelihood conditional hypotheses involving the Joint > Affidavit signed by George J. Nolan, PhD and Dennis Hodges are, again, > ineptitude in mistaking net negative work for 100hp -- or collusion in the > Rohner conspiracy. Do we have any reason to believe that either of Nolan > or Hodges had any prior connection with Papp or the Rohners or that Nolan > or Hodges had a background of suspected fraud? It seems ineptitude is more > likely since neither Nolan nor Hodges could be considered in the same class > as the Rohners when it comes to high power machinery. So let's run with > that branch in the conditional hypotheses tree: > > The geographically remote Papp and the Rohners entered into a conspiracy > to defraud the public and sought out, as dupes in their scheme, a PhD in > chemistry and the owner of an "independent diesel service", also > geographically remote from Papp and the Rohners. Papp and the Rohners then > presented their dupes with a form in which the dupes were to place numbers > and signatures. Papp then managed to make it appear that 100hp came out of > his fraudulent device for an hour to the satisfaction of the dupes, so that > they would sign the affidavit. > > Papp took the secret to his grave and the Rohners continued in their > efforts to defraud to the present day (we can, I suppose, explain the > rancor between the brothers Rohner as a continuation of the fraud taking > the form of two fraud artists competing for the same pool of marks). > > Does that about sum up the best alternative to "For some mysterious reason > no one has been able to get this thing to work for decades but its real." > hypothesis? > > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >> You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with >> Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free >> spinning? Somebody correct me. >> >> If it was just free spinning without a load, a single battery would have >> suffice for a long time. >> >> If you are talking about the dyno test with the affidavit from 2 men, I >> guess it all boils down the veracity of those two men. >> >> >> But the obvious question is, why don't we have a working Papp engine by >> now. If the patent is public domain, surely someone close to Papp would >> have realized the potential of this engine and recreated it. The Rohner >> boys would have been in such a position and yet, after 30 years, all they >> have are kits and demo poppers. >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> - Original Message - From: "Alan Fletcher" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:29 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble >> Gas Engine? >> >> >> From: "Alan Fletcher" \ >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM >>>> >>> >>> While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension >>>> cord needed to power it from the mains! >>>> >>> >>> 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps >&g
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
I think Papp knew that the charged particles generated from his devices were bad actors and needed to be contained as much as possible, thus his containment coil. I am of the opinion, that the only way to safetly confine this collapsed matter(gremlin) is some type of magnetic/inertial/gravitational confinement field once you have created the collapsed matter. After that you need to feed the suspended gremlin hydrogen to minimize harmful radiation and remove the heat and do not feed him too much too fast (although I think he is so "hot" that it would be hard to grow him in size very quickly) If I knew collapsed matter evaporated I would feel better. Results from Celani and that Papp video tend to make me believe it sticks around for awhile on its way ultimately to the center of the earth. On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 3:19 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with > Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free > spinning? Somebody correct me. > > If it was just free spinning without a load, a single battery would have > suffice for a long time. > > If you are talking about the dyno test with the affidavit from 2 men, I > guess it all boils down the veracity of those two men. > > > But the obvious question is, why don't we have a working Papp engine by > now. If the patent is public domain, surely someone close to Papp would > have realized the potential of this engine and recreated it. The Rohner > boys would have been in such a position and yet, after 30 years, all they > have are kits and demo poppers. > > > Jojo > > > - Original Message ----- From: "Alan Fletcher" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas > Engine? > > > From: "Alan Fletcher" \ >>> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM >>> >> >> While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension >>> cord needed to power it from the mains! >>> >> >> 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps >> >> https://wiktel.com/standards/**ampacit.htm<https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm> >> >> Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) >> http://www.powerstream.com/**Wire_Size.htm<http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm> >> = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). >> >> Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. >> >> To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 >> >> So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension >> cords. >> >> >> >
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Erratum: "the Rohner brothers were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Rohner" should (of course) read: "the Rohner brothers were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Papp" On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 9:59 AM, James Bowery wrote: > There are no good explanations for the Papp phenomenon. One isn't simply > talking about the veracity of two men signing an affidavit but of > world-class experts in high power machinery who actually fabricated the > device attested by the two men. We can ignore, for the sake of argument, > all of the midwestern investors who were from a long tradition of agrarian > self-sufficiency which featured a great deal of on-the-spot fabrication of > make-shift inventions to get the job done without the support of urban > infrastructure. Let's just talk about these 5 people (excluding, of > course, Papp himeself). One might be convinced that the Rohner brothers > were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Rohner but one cannot be > convinced that Rohner Machine Works was so inept as to mistake negative net > work from one of their own machines for 100 horsepower. > > So let's run with the Rohner conspiracy theory: > > The two highest-likelihood conditional hypotheses involving the Joint > Affidavit signed by George J. Nolan, PhD and Dennis Hodges are, again, > ineptitude in mistaking net negative work for 100hp -- or collusion in the > Rohner conspiracy. Do we have any reason to believe that either of Nolan > or Hodges had any prior connection with Papp or the Rohners or that Nolan > or Hodges had a background of suspected fraud? It seems ineptitude is more > likely since neither Nolan nor Hodges could be considered in the same class > as the Rohners when it comes to high power machinery. So let's run with > that branch in the conditional hypotheses tree: > > The geographically remote Papp and the Rohners entered into a conspiracy > to defraud the public and sought out, as dupes in their scheme, a PhD in > chemistry and the owner of an "independent diesel service", also > geographically remote from Papp and the Rohners. Papp and the Rohners then > presented their dupes with a form in which the dupes were to place numbers > and signatures. Papp then managed to make it appear that 100hp came out of > his fraudulent device for an hour to the satisfaction of the dupes, so that > they would sign the affidavit. > > Papp took the secret to his grave and the Rohners continued in their > efforts to defraud to the present day (we can, I suppose, explain the > rancor between the brothers Rohner as a continuation of the fraud taking > the form of two fraud artists competing for the same pool of marks). > > Does that about sum up the best alternative to "For some mysterious reason > no one has been able to get this thing to work for decades but its real." > hypothesis? > > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >> You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with >> Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free >> spinning? Somebody correct me. >> >> If it was just free spinning without a load, a single battery would have >> suffice for a long time. >> >> If you are talking about the dyno test with the affidavit from 2 men, I >> guess it all boils down the veracity of those two men. >> >> >> But the obvious question is, why don't we have a working Papp engine by >> now. If the patent is public domain, surely someone close to Papp would >> have realized the potential of this engine and recreated it. The Rohner >> boys would have been in such a position and yet, after 30 years, all they >> have are kits and demo poppers. >> >> >> Jojo >> >> >> - Original Message - From: "Alan Fletcher" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:29 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble >> Gas Engine? >> >> >> From: "Alan Fletcher" \ >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM >>>> >>> >>> While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension >>>> cord needed to power it from the mains! >>>> >>> >>> 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps >>> >>> https://wiktel.com/standards/**ampacit.htm<https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm> >>> >>> Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) >>> http://www.powerstream.com/**Wire_Size.htm<http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm> >>> = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). >>> >>> Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. >>> >>> To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 >>> >>> So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension >>> cords. >>> >>> >>> >> >
RE: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Good point JoJo. Proponents are conflating two different Papp anecdotes which completely warp the story. The flimsiest extension cord would be adequate to run the engine in a no-load condition, and it could continue to run for several minutes with the benefit of a hidden capacitor. This was what happened, in fact. (see below). Plus - A thirty+ year old meaningless affidavit from deceased individuals who supposedly tested the engine for the newly scammed owner of the technology on the premises of a third rate university - that does nothing to make the case … other than by that time, Papp was desperate and could convince no one in LA or the rest of California to buy-into the scam - and had to go all the way to what had recently been known as the "Cherokee National Female Seminary" to find two chumps to "validate." -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free spinning? Yes it was. BTW to set the record straight - Testimony given by Feynman indicates that Papp, not Feynman unplugged the engine. To wit: "Mr. Papp pulled the plug from the wall, and the fan propeller continued to turn. 'You see, this cord has nothing to do with the engine; it's only supplying power to the instruments,' Papp said. Well, that was easy. He's got a storage battery inside the engine. 'Do you mind if I hold the plug?' I [Feynman] asked? 'Not at all,' replied Mr. Papp, and he handed it to me. It wasn't very long before he asked me to give me back the plug. 'I'd like to hold it a little longer,' I said, figuring that if I stalled around enough, the damn thing would stop. Pretty soon Mr. Papp was frantic, so I (Richard Feynman) gave him back the plug and he plugged it back into the wall. A few moments later there was a big explosion: A cone of silvery uniform stuff shot out and turned to smoke." <>
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
There are no good explanations for the Papp phenomenon. One isn't simply talking about the veracity of two men signing an affidavit but of world-class experts in high power machinery who actually fabricated the device attested by the two men. We can ignore, for the sake of argument, all of the midwestern investors who were from a long tradition of agrarian self-sufficiency which featured a great deal of on-the-spot fabrication of make-shift inventions to get the job done without the support of urban infrastructure. Let's just talk about these 5 people (excluding, of course, Papp himeself). One might be convinced that the Rohner brothers were in some kind of conspiracy to defraud with Rohner but one cannot be convinced that Rohner Machine Works was so inept as to mistake negative net work from one of their own machines for 100 horsepower. So let's run with the Rohner conspiracy theory: The two highest-likelihood conditional hypotheses involving the Joint Affidavit signed by George J. Nolan, PhD and Dennis Hodges are, again, ineptitude in mistaking net negative work for 100hp -- or collusion in the Rohner conspiracy. Do we have any reason to believe that either of Nolan or Hodges had any prior connection with Papp or the Rohners or that Nolan or Hodges had a background of suspected fraud? It seems ineptitude is more likely since neither Nolan nor Hodges could be considered in the same class as the Rohners when it comes to high power machinery. So let's run with that branch in the conditional hypotheses tree: The geographically remote Papp and the Rohners entered into a conspiracy to defraud the public and sought out, as dupes in their scheme, a PhD in chemistry and the owner of an "independent diesel service", also geographically remote from Papp and the Rohners. Papp and the Rohners then presented their dupes with a form in which the dupes were to place numbers and signatures. Papp then managed to make it appear that 100hp came out of his fraudulent device for an hour to the satisfaction of the dupes, so that they would sign the affidavit. Papp took the secret to his grave and the Rohners continued in their efforts to defraud to the present day (we can, I suppose, explain the rancor between the brothers Rohner as a continuation of the fraud taking the form of two fraud artists competing for the same pool of marks). Does that about sum up the best alternative to "For some mysterious reason no one has been able to get this thing to work for decades but its real." hypothesis? On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with > Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free > spinning? Somebody correct me. > > If it was just free spinning without a load, a single battery would have > suffice for a long time. > > If you are talking about the dyno test with the affidavit from 2 men, I > guess it all boils down the veracity of those two men. > > > But the obvious question is, why don't we have a working Papp engine by > now. If the patent is public domain, surely someone close to Papp would > have realized the potential of this engine and recreated it. The Rohner > boys would have been in such a position and yet, after 30 years, all they > have are kits and demo poppers. > > > Jojo > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Fletcher" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas > Engine? > > > From: "Alan Fletcher" \ >>> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM >>> >> >> While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension >>> cord needed to power it from the mains! >>> >> >> 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps >> >> https://wiktel.com/standards/**ampacit.htm<https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm> >> >> Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) >> http://www.powerstream.com/**Wire_Size.htm<http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm> >> = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). >> >> Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. >> >> To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 >> >> So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension >> cords. >> >> >> >
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
You're right about the wire size calculations but during the test with Feynman, the Papp engine was not connected to a dyno. Wasn't it just free spinning? Somebody correct me. If it was just free spinning without a load, a single battery would have suffice for a long time. If you are talking about the dyno test with the affidavit from 2 men, I guess it all boils down the veracity of those two men. But the obvious question is, why don't we have a working Papp engine by now. If the patent is public domain, surely someone close to Papp would have realized the potential of this engine and recreated it. The Rohner boys would have been in such a position and yet, after 30 years, all they have are kits and demo poppers. Jojo - Original Message - From: "Alan Fletcher" To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine? From: "Alan Fletcher" \ Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension cord needed to power it from the mains! 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension cords.
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
> From: "Alan Fletcher" > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 5:29:35 PM > So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension > cords. None of the reports indicate whether the Papp engine was running under load or not.
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Shirley, you're joking Mr. Feynmann! Feynmann: Stop calling me Shirley. On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Alan Fletcher wrote: > > From: "Alan Fletcher" \ > > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM > > > While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension > > cord needed to power it from the mains! > > 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps > > https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm > > Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) > http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). > > Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. > > To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 > > So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension > cords. > >
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
> From: "Alan Fletcher" \ > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:46:13 PM > While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension > cord needed to power it from the mains! 107 hp = 78.7 KW / 120 V = 655 Amps https://wiktel.com/standards/ampacit.htm Highest gauge listed = = 260A (in insulated 3-wire cable) http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm = Diameter 0.46" (1.6mm). Allowing for insulation, that makes a bundle of about 1 inch diameter. To carry 655 amps you need 2.5 of them -- round up to 3 So, Feynman would have needed to yank out 3 1-inch diameter extension cords.
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
Do you expect to see 107 HP for an hour with a automobile sized battery? I have a larger one that powers a small johnboat and it is lucky to run for a couple of hours at much less power. You need a special deep discharge type to have a chance of any serious power over time from what I have seen. Also, I recall they disconnected the batteries after the engine was running. Dave -Original Message- From: Alan Fletcher To: vortex-l Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine? > From: "James Bowery" > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:09:07 PM > Subject: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine? > 2.5MJ/automobile battery > 1 hour at 107 horsepower > = 110.47821 battery Hah! It was actually 1 hour 6 minutes .. so add another 10 batteries. While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension cord needed to power it from the mains!
Re: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine?
> From: "James Bowery" > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:09:07 PM > Subject: [Vo]:110 automobile batteries to power the Oklahoma Noble Gas Engine? > 2.5MJ/automobile battery > 1 hour at 107 horsepower > = 110.47821 battery Hah! It was actually 1 hour 6 minutes .. so add another 10 batteries. While you're at it, calculate the diameter of the 3-wire extension cord needed to power it from the mains!
