Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Yes, this is the big question. If it worked, why didnt it blow up? I have calculated elsewhere in this forum that it is technical possible to dissipate the heat with a big ventilated air heatexchanger. This is believable to me. But the big unsolved question for me is: Steam temperature was 105°C. So the absolute pressure of steam is 1.2 bar or less. (respective 0.2 bar above air pressure) It was calculated before that the steam must reach a speed of some 100km/h with those pipes that where seen before. This speed seems to be impossible at this low pressure. So this must be explained. Possibly Rossi should publish basic and raw technical data about the water and steam path, pipe diameters and lengths and heat exchangers and so on. This can impossibly been kept as a proprietary secret, there is nothing secret about this. And please note: I dont doubt it in order to destroy it. I doubt it to find the truth. Doubting the truth is the best way find and to to harden it. This is the scientific way. It is slow, but produces hard results. Of course I would be happy to find it to be true, but with this open question I cannot say that I can understand and believe it. Peter Am 29.10.2011 04:37, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Also, this was not a colossal disappointment to me because, hey, it did not blow up. As readers here know, I was seriously worried the damn thing might explode or irradiate the audience. I am relieved that nothing like that happened. It seemed to work at 1/2 of nameplate power. For a reactor they just finished building, that's fantastic. That is as good as 1 MW. Rossi is much braver than I am, or much more foolhardy, or both. As you hear in this video, I am not the only one who is worried about radiation and other dangers. So are the Italian authorities, as well they should be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAdGduQ50A Rossi says here that they issued some sort of conditional permit, with restrictions. That is the sort of thing you would expect for an experimental device. That sounds plausible. It is what I would expect a responsible government official to issue. I still think it was much too big a reactor, and I still think the test schedule was too fast. But evidently Rossi and the Italian officials share some of my concerns about safety and that's good. I predicted that a major company such as GE or Mitsubishi would want to get involved in such risky tests. Perhaps I was wrong and this was a big company. But if it was an up-and-coming profitable, risk-taking place such as Manutencoop, that may be the kind of thing they would get into. Back in the go-go late 1960s, companies such as Data General used to get involved in risky start-up technology. According to Soul of a New Machine there were rumors that Data General was involved in some actual physical risk and possibly criminal behavior such as burning down the buildings of rival companies. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: Jed, in your opinion, why does Rossi bother with these demoes, if they don't impress fence sitters, and he doesn't need new investors? It seems to clear to me why he did these demos. Different reasons: Oct. 6 was a demonstration. It proved beyond any question the device is real. Anyone who doubts that is a scientific illiterate, in my opinion. The proof is in the physical shape, configuration and the temperatures you can feel even without instruments. People who do not understand basic physics, and who look only at instrument readings instead of the experiment itself may convince themselves it proved nothing. That is because Rossi is sloppy with instruments. If he had included another K-type thermocouple and an SD card, he would have convinced most of these people as well. Oct. 28 was a customer acceptance trial. It sure looked like that to me. An engineer came and measured everything, and then noted it was fine except there are some leaking gaskets. Rossi allowed some of his friends to attend. He wined them and dined them, just for the fun of it. He said beforehand that the test would be closed and he meant it. By the way, he blamed *me*for that. Me personally, in a e-mail. That was after I told him he is sloppy and rude to his audience. He took offence and said 'just for that I will make the Oct. 28 test closed. No more demonstrations!' (Something like that.) I think he was looking around for an excuse to close the test, and he decided to blame me. I copied my message to him here, and it is pretty much what I wrote here: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3295498.ece/BINARY/Conclusion+Ecat+Oct+6+by+Jed+Rothwell+%28pdf%29 What it boils down to is that Rossi hates to reveal information. He likes to micromanage things. He wants you look over his shoulder at a computer and trust whatever he says. He really, really hates it when people criticize him. He pretends to be oh-so-tough I don't care what anyone thinks, but in fact he is a thin-skinned as a teenage kid. Also he is sloppy and he does not understand how to do a proper, convincing demonstration. Those attitudes are not productive for a scientist or engineer. We all have our limitations. What he is trying to do now is to make money selling individual reactors, and getting a contract with what I suspect is a mid-level, go-go Italian company, Manutencoop. That is actually a pretty good choice. But he could do a lot better. Some people I know have offered him huge sums of money. He ignores them or blows them away because they insist that he must allow real testing, he must hand over all of his secrets, and he must let them make the business decisions. Rossi resembles Patterson and many others in that he would take this technology to the grave with him, so that no one gets it, rather than lose control or do what other people want him to do. Regarding Manutencoop, someone should check the earlier spreadsheets to see where they came from. I don't think I have that software on this computer. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Rossi says here that they issued some sort of conditional permit, with restrictions. That is the sort of thing you would expect for an experimental device. That sounds plausible. It is what I would expect a responsible government official to issue. Jed, please. How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? I don’t know in bangladesh or in afrika, but here in Italy even a dentist with his ultra-low-power X-Ray device, he must have a “Nuclear Warning” panel. And Rossi said that his machine generate heat by gamma thermalization. Which mean MEGAWATTS of gamma. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 4:37 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit. I wrote: This test has been a colossal disappointment. I know Rossi pretty well by now, so I was expecting something like this. Given who Rossi is and how he thinks, this wasn't a colossal disappointment. Also, this was not a colossal disappointment to me because, hey, it did not blow up. As readers here know, I was seriously worried the damn thing might explode or irradiate the audience. I am relieved that nothing like that happened. It seemed to work at 1/2 of nameplate power. For a reactor they just finished building, that's fantastic. That is as good as 1 MW. Rossi is much braver than I am, or much more foolhardy, or both. As you hear in this video, I am not the only one who is worried about radiation and other dangers. So are the Italian authorities, as well they should be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAdGduQ50A Rossi says here that they issued some sort of conditional permit, with restrictions. That is the sort of thing you would expect for an experimental device. That sounds plausible. It is what I would expect a responsible government official to issue. I still think it was much too big a reactor, and I still think the test schedule was too fast. But evidently Rossi and the Italian officials share some of my concerns about safety and that's good. I predicted that a major company such as GE or Mitsubishi would want to get involved in such risky tests. Perhaps I was wrong and this was a big company. But if it was an up-and-coming profitable, risk-taking place such as Manutencoop, that may be the kind of thing they would get into. Back in the go-go late 1960s, companies such as Data General used to get involved in risky start-up technology. According to Soul of a New Machine there were rumors that Data General was involved in some actual physical risk and possibly criminal behavior such as burning down the buildings of rival companies. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
On Sat, 2011-10-29 at 15:20 +0200, Mattia Rizzi wrote: How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? Nuclear Warning Panel? This is still an unknown phenomenon, and the idea that it's nuclear is still speculation. It is not known to be a nuclear reactor. It might very well be some sort of zero-point energy device. The only explanations out there are just hypothesis -- not even theories. The only thing a government might be interested in are the regulations which would apply to creating steam in a large device. Craig
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? I don't know. I have not seen his application or permit. You have a good point. It might be prudent to set up some signs. I am not sure where you would put them, or how far away people should stay. Bianchini set up detectors and found nothing, so they did pay some attention to this issue. Still, as far as anyone knows, cold fusion never generates dangerous radiation. So it is a little silly to apply the safety standards of fission or plasma fusion to it. This is like saying that hydrogen airships can explode, so we should take extreme precautions when working with helium balloons. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Am 29.10.2011 16:32, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com mailto:mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? I don't know. I have not seen his application or permit. You have a good point. It might be prudent to set up some signs. I am not sure where you would put them, or how far away people should stay. Bianchini set up detectors and found nothing, so they did pay some attention to this issue. Still, as far as anyone knows, cold fusion never generates dangerous radiation. In contradiction to this, Rossi says the heat is made from soft gamma rays. Some 100 kW of gamma rays are dangerous. So it is a little silly to apply the safety standards of fission or plasma fusion to it. This is like saying that hydrogen airships can explode, so we should take extreme precautions when working with helium balloons. No it is like saying a helium Zeppelin is dangerous, because the inventor says, it is filled with hydrogen ;-) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Still, as far as anyone knows, cold fusion never generates dangerous radiation. So it is a little silly to apply the safety standards of fission or plasma fusion to it. This is like saying that hydrogen airships can explode, so we should take extreme precautions when working with helium balloons. No matter of what his going on inside the reactor. Rossi made spectacular claims. He said that he generate heat by gamma emission. If you go to the NRC asking for an autohrization for a test with potential gamma emission, nobody release you authorization without installing some precautions, and Nuclear Warning panels. Here, in Italy too. 2011/10/29 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? I don't know. I have not seen his application or permit. You have a good point. It might be prudent to set up some signs. I am not sure where you would put them, or how far away people should stay. Bianchini set up detectors and found nothing, so they did pay some attention to this issue. Still, as far as anyone knows, cold fusion never generates dangerous radiation. So it is a little silly to apply the safety standards of fission or plasma fusion to it. This is like saying that hydrogen airships can explode, so we should take extreme precautions when working with helium balloons. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Gamma rays may have a subjective definition.You can say that Gamma Rays are photons emitted by state transitions of the nucleus and X-Rays are photons that comes from electrons. X-Ray machines emits what would be otherwise consider gamma rays, around 140KeV. For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technetium-99m The gamma ray can have a small wavelength such that it could almost fit in the range of visible light, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_thorium#Thorium-229m If you consider a gamma ray as photons originated by decays of excited decays of the nucleus, you can have wave lengths near the visible spectrum, 2011/10/29 Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de Am 29.10.2011 16:32, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: How can rossi had a permit if inside the nuclear site there isn’t even a SINGLE “Nuclear Warning” panel? I don't know. I have not seen his application or permit. You have a good point. It might be prudent to set up some signs. I am not sure where you would put them, or how far away people should stay. Bianchini set up detectors and found nothing, so they did pay some attention to this issue. Still, as far as anyone knows, cold fusion never generates dangerous radiation. In contradiction to this, Rossi says the heat is made from soft gamma rays. Some 100 kW of gamma rays are dangerous. So it is a little silly to apply the safety standards of fission or plasma fusion to it. This is like saying that hydrogen airships can explode, so we should take extreme precautions when working with helium balloons. No it is like saying a helium Zeppelin is dangerous, because the inventor says, it is filled with hydrogen ;-) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: No matter of what his going on inside the reactor. Rossi made spectacular claims. He said that he generate heat by gamma emission. Yes, he did. Experts think that is unlikely, but he did say that. But did he tell that to the government when he applied for a permit? Does he still believe that? I do not know. If you have read the application or the permit please tell us. Perhaps you can find it on-line in an Italian government web site. I would love to see that permit -- assuming it exists. If you go to the NRC asking for an autohrization for a test with potential gamma emission, nobody release you authorization without installing some precautions, and Nuclear Warning panels. That does seem likely. Perhaps that means he did not tell them there is potential gamma emissions. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
I mean that I predicted GE would NOT want to get involved. Look at the Manutencoop profile: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=9156703 Recently founded, growing rapidly, still hungry. Privately owned, leaving them free to make big decisions and take risks. Just the kind of go-go place you would expect to run with this. People think the microcomputer biz began exclusively with garage start ups such as Apple and Microsoft. It did to a large extent, but the money came from established venture capitalists and many of the players were mid-sized companies such as Radio Shack, with its Trash-80. It could'a been a contenda. It was, for several years. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
Jed, in your opinion, why does Rossi bother with these demoes, if they don't impress fence sitters, and he doesn't need new investors? Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 28, 2011, at 22:37, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I wrote: This test has been a colossal disappointment. I know Rossi pretty well by now, so I was expecting something like this. Given who Rossi is and how he thinks, this wasn't a colossal disappointment. Also, this was not a colossal disappointment to me because, hey, it did not blow up. As readers here know, I was seriously worried the damn thing might explode or irradiate the audience. I am relieved that nothing like that happened. It seemed to work at 1/2 of nameplate power. For a reactor they just finished building, that's fantastic. That is as good as 1 MW. Rossi is much braver than I am, or much more foolhardy, or both. As you hear in this video, I am not the only one who is worried about radiation and other dangers. So are the Italian authorities, as well they should be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLAdGduQ50A Rossi says here that they issued some sort of conditional permit, with restrictions. That is the sort of thing you would expect for an experimental device. That sounds plausible. It is what I would expect a responsible government official to issue. I still think it was much too big a reactor, and I still think the test schedule was too fast. But evidently Rossi and the Italian officials share some of my concerns about safety and that's good. I predicted that a major company such as GE or Mitsubishi would want to get involved in such risky tests. Perhaps I was wrong and this was a big company. But if it was an up-and-coming profitable, risk-taking place such as Manutencoop, that may be the kind of thing they would get into. Back in the go-go late 1960s, companies such as Data General used to get involved in risky start-up technology. According to Soul of a New Machine there were rumors that Data General was involved in some actual physical risk and possibly criminal behavior such as burning down the buildings of rival companies. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Hey, it didn't blow up! And by the way, there does seem to be a permit.
At first I was disappointed it wasn't a major US company for selfish reasons - cause I want one as soon as possible :) but their profile does make a lot of sense. More info on them posted on the ecatnews site with a shout out to Jed. http://ecatnews.com/?p=1129 Joe On 10/28/2011 10:50 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: I mean that I predicted GE would NOT want to get involved. Look at the Manutencoop profile: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=9156703 Recently founded, growing rapidly, still hungry. Privately owned, leaving them free to make big decisions and take risks. Just the kind of go-go place you would expect to run with this. People think the microcomputer biz began exclusively with garage start ups such as Apple and Microsoft. It did to a large extent, but the money came from established venture capitalists and many of the players were mid-sized companies such as Radio Shack, with its Trash-80. It could'a been a contenda. It was, for several years. - Jed
