[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Their page loaded slowly for me and I'm on broadband. Too many sliced graphics slow down page load. Personally I prefer Jac's stuff she's shown this list when asking for site checks to Newark's site. Theirs looks a bit dated to me. As far as how I start. I don't do high design sites. Most of mine are informational where the content is the most important thing and graphics tend to be of secondary or lower importance unless they are charts or production/product images. When I use graphics they are generally client supplied and relate to the subject of the site for instance image of MTBE molecule on a site for MTBE remediation, company activity photos, product photos that sort of thing. If I want or need something not directly related such as an office worker or whatever I will use Humera's Photo Clip Art. Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer MS-MVP-FrontPage www.wiserways.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713.353.0139 Office -Original Message- From: jmwcruiser I would like to bring this conversation back to the basic design process. How do you begin the design process? Regardless of technically how the page is laid out, you have to start putting the pieces (images, navigation, copy, etc) on the page. I am trying to get away from choppy look I see so often ( in my own site and in others) and go with a more fluid design. The best resource I have found is: http://www.newark1.com/index.htm I really like their designs and the site has a number of articles on good web design. So I am trying to think more like *newark.* When working with a small budget site, images are often hard to come by. Most of my customers are not design-focused so it doesn't make any difference to them-- but I would like to make my sites more artistic/elegant/not sure of the right word--but I know it when I see it! I was just looking for a book or other resource that had samples of well-designed/artistic (but very functional) sites to give me lots of ideas that would spur my own creativity. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Janet wrote: When working with a small budget site, images are often hard to come by. Most of my customers are not design-focused so it doesn't make any difference to them-- but I would like to make my sites more artistic/elegant/not sure of the right word--but I know it when I see it! I was just looking for a book or other resource that had samples of well-designed/artistic (but very functional) sites to give me lots of ideas that would spur my own creativity. Tim: Janet, I know exactly where you're at, and I'm in the same boat...I've been looking for ideas to take our corporate site to the next level of graphical appeal. I'm not a designer by nature but know when something is well-designed. I think you're on the right trail - knowing what you like is sometimes half the problem solved. So far, I've decided that images do contribute to the artistic/elegant site, but I've seen sites without images that feel the same way through judicial use of color and font. Oddly, most of the law firm sites that received awards last year were ugly as sin; it seemed that the one quality the reviewers looked for was news - i.e., a bit of text or streaming stuff that gave the user the impression that the site was fresh content every day (it wasn't, of course). Can you believe one law firm named their site http://www.mofo.com;? That had our marketing director laughing on the floor for several minutes. I'll be following up on these suggestions; I'm wanting to learn this, too. Tim ___ Tim Furry Web Developer Foulston Siefkin LLP The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Hi Tim- I checked out mofo.com. After I realized the firm is really Morrison and Foerster it made more senses! But it still is a good laugh. As for images on sites. Right now I am working on a very small site for a one person consulting business. She has no images to use and I want to avoid the usual image of people sitting at a conference table, hands shaking, etc. She has a number of folks she uses in her business to extend her capabilities so I don't want to use images of her. So I am stuck. The obvious choices are use more color and create some great typography. Also perhaps using *images* done in Photoshop -- such as lines, grids or other geometric shapes. The site needs to reflect her professionalism. I don't want to turn it into an *artsy* site but a few well-placed images would help in addition to color and typography. Its easy to find images when you are designing for a winery or hospital or school or such. It is these less tangible sites that give me trouble. If you have the URLs of any nicely designed sites with few or no images, pleas share them. Good design should be of interest to all on this list, regardless of platform or market focus. Thanks Janet - Original Message - From: Furry, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: [wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box Janet wrote: When working with a small budget site, images are often hard to come by. Most of my customers are not design-focused so it doesn't make any difference to them-- but I would like to make my sites more artistic/elegant/not sure of the right word--but I know it when I see it! I was just looking for a book or other resource that had samples of well-designed/artistic (but very functional) sites to give me lots of ideas that would spur my own creativity. Tim: Janet, I know exactly where you're at, and I'm in the same boat...I've been looking for ideas to take our corporate site to the next level of graphical appeal. I'm not a designer by nature but know when something is well-designed. I think you're on the right trail - knowing what you like is sometimes half the problem solved. So far, I've decided that images do contribute to the artistic/elegant site, but I've seen sites without images that feel the same way through judicial use of color and font. Oddly, most of the law firm sites that received awards last year were ugly as sin; it seemed that the one quality the reviewers looked for was news - i.e., a bit of text or streaming stuff that gave the user the impression that the site was fresh content every day (it wasn't, of course). Can you believe one law firm named their site http://www.mofo.com;? That had our marketing director laughing on the floor for several minutes. I'll be following up on these suggestions; I'm wanting to learn this, too. Tim ___ Tim Furry Web Developer Foulston Siefkin LLP The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Thanks Cheryl, I will check out those references. I would like to bring this conversation back to the basic design process. How do you begin the design process? Regardless of technically how the page is laid out, you have to start putting the pieces (images, navigation, copy, etc) on the page. I am trying to get away from choppy look I see so often ( in my own site and in others) and go with a more fluid design. The best resource I have found is: http://www.newark1.com/index.htm I really like their designs and the site has a number of articles on good web design. So I am trying to think more like *newark.* When working with a small budget site, images are often hard to come by. Most of my customers are not design-focused so it doesn't make any difference to them-- but I would like to make my sites more artistic/elegant/not sure of the right word--but I know it when I see it! I was just looking for a book or other resource that had samples of well-designed/artistic (but very functional) sites to give me lots of ideas that would spur my own creativity. Janet The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] Re: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Janet, http://coolhomepages.com/ is a fun site to visit for ideas. Also, have you thought of using div layers? You can still use your sliced creative images in a table, just wrap the sliced-images-table inside a div layer and use z-index to paste it 'behind' other layers. Then, utilize other layers with a higher-numbered z-index, so their images or text are in the forefront. You can use absolute positioning to make those layers stick to the same coordinate spots every time the page is loaded. In that fashion, you might have a patterned background image, say a circle, or oval, in the background layer, and then paste text navigation links 'around' the edges of the circle using css absolute positioning.This offers you a bit more variety than a 'boxy' look via use of tables. Hope this helps, Jim The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Thanks Cheryl- I haven't moved away from tables as I understand that CSS positioning isn't supported in some of the older browsers. So far, the clients I have are small business and/or nonprofits where their customers may be on older machines. I use CSS for the other display elements however. I know people (and more than I would like to admit) still on Netscape 4 as they believe this is more secure. After all -- browser attacks are usually targeted at newer version (at least that is their belief). So they put up with old browsers. I cannot change their thinking and must accommodate it in the web design. Most of these are low budget sites so I can't afford to do a table layout for older browsers and pure CSS layout for newer ones. I wonder how long it will be before *most* everyone is using a browser that fully supports CSS layout? Thanks for reminding me about csszengarden. I haven't been there for a bit. Janet - Original Message - From: Cheryl D. Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:15 PM Subject: [wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box Go to http://csszengarden.com and look at the different versions. All of which use the exact same html file and css classes, etc. Slicing a bunch of images isn't necessarily the best idea. As far as GoLive, FrontPage, Photoshop, etc. they are just tools. I like Eric Meyer on CSS but there are other books. I'd avoid anything that uses tables for layout and really complex designs that you see in some of the older design books. Find sites you like and take them apart to see what makes them work. If they use something you don't understand try Googling then if you need more help go to the bookstore and browse through books that have those areas in the index. Read their explanation and the book that as an explanation that makes sense to you is the one to buy. Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer MS-MVP-FrontPage www.wiserways.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713.353.0139 Office The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
I haven't created a site in over a year that used anything other than CSS-P for layout. Some of the sites are visited heavily by NN 4.x browsers. Yes, it limits you a bit but you can have a site that is streamlined attractive, works in NN 4.x and uses nothing but css for positioning. Take a look at http://pinespc.org. Works in every browser out there including Lynx. May not look as nice in Lynx but hey that is a pure text browser. I will admit there is one page that displays differently in NN 4.x than in compliant browsers and that is the preschool page. Some of the background images are hidden from NN 4.x because it doesn't handle that type of positioning well. Not a big deal since there was a difference of opinion between some of the client's board on whether the pictures should be used or not. Very little reason that a simple site of the type our clients need can't use css for layout. Cheryl D. Wises Certified Professional Web Developer MS-MVP-FrontPage www.wiserways.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713.353.0139 Office -Original Message- From: jmwcruiser I haven't moved away from tables as I understand that CSS positioning isn't supported in some of the older browsers. So far, the clients I have are small business and/or nonprofits where their customers may be on older machines. I use CSS for the other display elements however. I know people (and more than I would like to admit) still on Netscape 4 as they believe this is more secure. After all -- browser attacks are usually targeted at newer version (at least that is their belief). So they put up with old browsers. I cannot change their thinking and must accommodate it in the web design. Most of these are low budget sites so I can't afford to do a table layout for older browsers and pure CSS layout for newer ones. I wonder how long it will be before *most* everyone is using a browser that fully supports CSS layout? Thanks for reminding me about csszengarden. I haven't been there for a bit. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Thanks Cheryl. I will take at look at pinespc. Perhaps it is time for me to leave tables behind. How limiting do you find IE support of CSS-P? I've read the articles -- which just gave ammunition to my avoidance of CSS-P--that explain how to work around the limitation of IE 5 and 6. Do you find this to be a problem? Or have you just developed a procedure that allows you to live with the situation. I understand the biggest issue is with specifying *width*. Are there other potholes to avoid? Or in practice is the IE5/6 noncompliance not so much of an issue? Janet - Original Message - From: Cheryl D. Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:08 PM Subject: [wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box I haven't created a site in over a year that used anything other than CSS-P for layout. Some of the sites are visited heavily by NN 4.x browsers. Yes, it limits you a bit but you can have a site that is streamlined attractive, works in NN 4.x and uses nothing but css for positioning. Take a look at http://pinespc.org. Works in every browser out there including Lynx. May not look as nice in Lynx but hey that is a pure text browser. I will admit there is one page that displays differently in NN 4.x than in compliant browsers and that is the preschool page. Some of the background images are hidden from NN 4.x because it doesn't handle that type of positioning well. Not a big deal since there was a difference of opinion between some of the client's board on whether the pictures should be used or not. Very little reason that a simple site of the type our clients need can't use css for layout. Cheryl D. Wises Certified Professional Web Developer MS-MVP-FrontPage www.wiserways.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713.353.0139 Office The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
[wdvltalk] RE: Please Help--Getting my Web Design Out of the Box
Personally I don't find the differences all that big of a deal. In many cases the bad behavior is not even noticeable by the average visitor unless you absolutely insist on pixel perfect display cross all browsers and platforms, yeah right. A 3px jog just isn't that big of a deal to me. Then again I do not expect my sites to look identical just attractive and to degrade gracefully. As far as what to avoid. Don't use width 100% if you use any borders, margin or padding on the outside of containers (aka divs or other block level elements) that's where you'll end up with horizontal scrollbars in some cases with the different box models. For common 2 and 3 column layouts take a look at http://positioniseverything.net, www.alistapart.com or one of the css layout generators. Depending on the layout you want you can always use a hybrid layout using the methods in Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards or Eric Meyer's Eric Meyer on CSS. Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer MS-MVP-FrontPage www.wiserways.com mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 713.353.0139 Office -Original Message- From: jmwcruiser Thanks Cheryl. I will take at look at pinespc. Perhaps it is time for me to leave tables behind. How limiting do you find IE support of CSS-P? I've read the articles -- which just gave ammunition to my avoidance of CSS-P--that explain how to work around the limitation of IE 5 and 6. Do you find this to be a problem? Or have you just developed a procedure that allows you to live with the situation. I understand the biggest issue is with specifying *width*. Are there other potholes to avoid? Or in practice is the IE5/6 noncompliance not so much of an issue? The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
