Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Dima Barsky]

Hi Mark,

I'm on holiday now until the 13th of April. When I get back I'll continue
working on the gluon package. There is not much to document there, it's
quite straightforward. If you want to help you could start with developing
the setup.py file for the gluon module. You can find the setuptools manual
here: http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/setuptools

Regards,
Dima.
 

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 07:01:01 -0700 (PDT), Mark Breedveld
 wrote:
> Hi Dima,
> 
> I have to plan my work for the coming weeks.
> Because I was wondering when you could need some help.
> 
> Because when there is a concrete plan,
> I could try to start a project at my school.
> Which could give this project a development boost.
> 
> We could also start a document on google docs.
> To make it more collaborative and a good spread of the work.
> 
> Regards Mark Breedveld,
> 
> 
> On Mar 23, 8:40 pm, Dima Barsky  wrote:
>> On Mar 23, 6:00 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
>>
>> > I do not have any object. I think I need more details to understand
it
>> > better. I think you should give it a shot and we'll see later if we
>> > find any problem.
>>
>> I'm not very happy about this, I would prefer to reach an agreement
>> before I start. I would not want to spend several evenings developing
>> something that you eventually reject for some ideological reasons.
>>
>> Let's do it one step at a time. I'll package the gluon module anyway,
>> there seem to be no problems with  it. After that I'll try to write
>> down a small document describing the structure of other web2py related
>> packages. If you are happy with it I'll go ahead with the second part.
>> If not, we'll just stop there.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dima.

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Dima Barsky]

> I am not sure I understand. If I understand you are proposing:
> 
> 1) installing web2py into /usr/ as it (it will not run there)
> 2) provide a script to allow users to make a copy of what is needed
> for runtime (inluding applications/)
> 3) allow the user to run from the folder where files have been copied
> but using the shared gluon files.
> 
> If I understand I am fine with this.

That's correct, but it's only part of my proposal. 

The most difficult bit would be to create "production" application. See my
previous post about
symlinks from /usr into /var. Do you have any objections to that?

Regards,
Dima.

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Dima Barsky]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 02:06:16 -0700 (PDT), Mark Breedveld
 wrote:
> I'll see both problems and another solution to work around this.
> We could install web2py into /usr/ directories with apt.
> 
> Then create a startup script that makes a copy of web2py and the
> web2py applications that are installed trough apt  to the /var folder.
> A so called runtime version of web2py.

This will work, but why would you want to do this? It will create more
problems than it solves. 

Imagine the following scenario: you develop a web2py application called
XYZ, which is packaged and distributed via Debian. A user installs XYZ
version 1.2.3 and starts playing with the runtime version in /var, adding
new views and controllers and modifying the existing ones. Some time later
you release XYZ 1.3.0 which gets installed on the user's computer via an
automatic update. Now there are two version of XYZ on that computer - the
mainstream 1.3.0 in /usr and user-modified 1.2.3 in /var. The changes that
you made in 1.3.0 are incompatible with the user's changes, so there is no
easy way to merge them together. The startup script can not just override
the user's changes and install 1.3.0 in /var, that would be cruel. Let's
assume it leaves 1.2.3 in /var intact. Now the user notices a bug in your
application and decides to submit a bug report using one of the standard
bug-reporting tools in Debian. The tool looks at the packaging database and
reports that the user has XYZ 1.3.0 installed. Imagine your confusion when
you receive this bug report, you thought you had fixed this problem, but
it's still there. It's a nightmare, I would not want to maintain such an
application.

Let's admit that there are different roles: developers develop
applications, users use them. When a user wants to become a developer he
can install the application in his home dir and start working on it. There
is another class of users who don't have any intention of modifying the
application. They just want to use it, they want stability and
predictability, and the packaging system gives them that.

Regards,
Dima.

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RE: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Mark Breedveld]

Ill used ms outlook as mailer, but I could return to webmail.
If that is the problem.

Mark 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens
mdipierro
Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 22:54
Aan: web2py-users
Onderwerp: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

> - Where to put web2py.py? //Because this aint user data, but the
> application/webserver

Do not know but web2py.py should be called by something like /etc/
init.d/web2py

Why all your emails get blocked pending moderation?
It only happens with your emails and I cannot figure out why.
According to google gruous you are allowed to post yet your messages
get stuck.
If no manager is online your messages will not be posted.
If the problem persists I will make you manager and we see how that
works.

Massimo

On Mar 22, 4:33 pm, "Mark Breedveld"  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree that it must become /var/web2py/applications,
> because the hole application is dynamic, except for the gluon folder.
> Which could be under the py path.
>
> I heard that is possible to cluster web2py by putting it on a central
> server.
> And start it through a share on another server.
> To keep this easily be possible it recommended to keep the data of a
web2py
> application together.
> So it keep possible to mount applications from anywhere, but also to
install
> them locally.
> This would become
> I also tested what happens when you remove the rights of the web2py user
on
> one application.
> This will not prevent webserver to run, but it cannot execute that app.
>
> So we could separate web2py applications from several user by their
rights.
> In order to run those applications we execute a instance under group
> www-data,
> But as the application owner.
> This is possible for wsgi, but it has some difficulties for a standalone
> execution.
> Because every user will need its own port.
>
> Summary
> - The application under /var/web2py
> - Except for gluon which comes in the python path (if possible)
> - Except for /etc/web2py/options_std.py
> - Applications are by default owned by www-data user and group
> - except user depend applications which have themselves as owner
> - There is an "deamon"/start up entry for www-data on port 8000
>
> Definitions
> - Web2py applications are for debian interpretation user data
>         Which is allowed in the var directory.
>
> Open issue
> - Where to put web2py.py? //Because this aint user data, but the
> application/webserver
> - Who decides which package is allowed in the repo? We might contact them.
>
> I hope this is a right conclusion from all those mails
>
> Regards Mark Breedveld,
>
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens Kuba
> Kucharski
> Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 21:24
> Aan: web2py@googlegroups.com
> Onderwerp: Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!
>
> So /var/www..
>
> --
> Kuba
>
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RE: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Mark Breedveld]

Hi everyone,

I agree that it must become /var/web2py/applications, 
because the hole application is dynamic, except for the gluon folder.
Which could be under the py path.

I heard that is possible to cluster web2py by putting it on a central
server.
And start it through a share on another server.
To keep this easily be possible it recommended to keep the data of a web2py
application together.
So it keep possible to mount applications from anywhere, but also to install
them locally.
This would become
I also tested what happens when you remove the rights of the web2py user on
one application.
This will not prevent webserver to run, but it cannot execute that app.

So we could separate web2py applications from several user by their rights.
In order to run those applications we execute a instance under group
www-data, 
But as the application owner. 
This is possible for wsgi, but it has some difficulties for a standalone
execution.
Because every user will need its own port.

Summary
- The application under /var/web2py
- Except for gluon which comes in the python path (if possible)
- Except for /etc/web2py/options_std.py 
- Applications are by default owned by www-data user and group
- except user depend applications which have themselves as owner 
- There is an "deamon"/start up entry for www-data on port 8000

Definitions
- Web2py applications are for debian interpretation user data
Which is allowed in the var directory.

Open issue
- Where to put web2py.py? //Because this aint user data, but the
application/webserver
- Who decides which package is allowed in the repo? We might contact them.

I hope this is a right conclusion from all those mails

Regards Mark Breedveld,

  
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens Kuba
Kucharski
Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 21:24
Aan: web2py@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

So /var/www..

-- 
Kuba

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Kuba Kucharski]

So /var/www..

-- 
Kuba

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Kuba Kucharski]

yes, there may be no "home" in Debian, but the proper user always have
some directory assigned in /etc/passwd

mysql:x:116:122:MySQL Server,,,:/var/lib/mysql:/bin/false

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Kuba Kucharski]

web2py application are higher level. Like php scripts in www
directory. They are edtable. They are apps within web2py. They are
isolated and independent. They sometimes contain sqlite data inside.
web2py is about user-developers. So in some way applications are "user
data". Applying default security policy to such project is a nonsene
IMHO.

My opinion is the application folder should go to the home folder of
the user which runs web2py. Like in Django /home/user/mycode..


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RE: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Mark Breedveld]

Hi Massimo,

I thought that would be.
Because of the cache and sessions dir for example.

But in order to stay close to the guidelines, (which is required for repo)
We need to define the purpose of web2py application folder structure.

But controllers/models/modules/views/cron are the core of a web2py
application.
And should formal be under "/opt/"or "/usr/", right? (See the point of view
in an earlier mail : extension/application)

The /cache, /errors/,sessions, tests are true /var directories and are even
created instantly when missing.

Doubtful for me are /databases /static /languages, I believe that these
should belong in the /var directory.
Because language ain't static and database contains files which are create
on database connection.
Static could contain files which are dynamic from the app view, so I think a
doubtful /var file.

If Massimo or someone else can confirm this.
Then I believe that Dima is able to define a directory structure for non
compiled apps.
With or without links.

I suggest we first do the non compiled apps.
So we can consider that as done.
Before we continue to discuss the compiled apps,

Regards Mark Breedveld, 

P.s. we could create our own apt-repo (like moovidia in its early day), but
this should our last option...

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens
mdipierro
Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 19:29
Aan: web2py-users
Onderwerp: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

You can bytecode compile hem but you cannot break the deplyment
mechanism. Even bytecode compiled apps must be under a writable
applications, therefore under /vars/

On Mar 22, 1:20 pm, "Mark Breedveld"  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thought that it was possible to pre-compile applications in web2py.
>
> Never used it before, but I found it out on the website.
>
> We could consider pre-compiled applications as production applications.
>
> Which means they may not and cannot be edited.
>
> All non compiled application could be considers as source/development
> applications.
>
> Which may exist in the apt repo.
>
> All pre-compiled application should be in the /opt/ directory, If you
define
> a web2py application as an extention of web2py.
>
> But there is also a say for a web2py app as indepent application, build on
> the os web2py.
>
> Which means it should be in the /usr dictory.
>
> The non pre-compiled applications,
>
> Should all be under /var/, because they change.
>
> Well I'm not an expert on this topic,
>
> but this is my first interpretation of the guidelines.
>
> Because we should design it prefect and then create work arounds.
>
> My excuse for putting things in a hurry.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Breedveld,
>
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
>
> Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens Dima
> Barsky
>
> Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 18:55
>
> Aan: web2py-users
>
> Onderwerp: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!
>
> On Mar 22, 5:33 pm, Kuba Kucharski < 
>
> kuba.kuchar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There are two type of "apps":
>
> > the core, web2py itself
>
> > applications that runs in the web2py environment. Those have to be
> > editable. This is a hard case, since web2py is "kind of an OS itself",
> > this should be solved with /var.
>
> Kuba, could you clarify please? Why do you think pre-packaged applications
> have to be editable?
>
> Debian is not unique in this respect, it is generally not a good idea to
> modify applications after they have been deployed.  It makes bug reporting
> and investigation much more difficult, it makes the intrusion detection
> impossible.. should I continue?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dima.
>
> --
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RE: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Mark Breedveld]

Hi everyone,

 

Thought that it was possible to pre-compile applications in web2py.

Never used it before, but I found it out on the website.

 

We could consider pre-compiled applications as production applications.

Which means they may not and cannot be edited.

 

All non compiled application could be considers as source/development
applications.

Which may exist in the apt repo.

 

All pre-compiled application should be in the /opt/ directory, If you define
a web2py application as an extention of web2py.

But there is also a say for a web2py app as indepent application, build on
the os web2py.

Which means it should be in the /usr dictory. 

 

The non pre-compiled applications,

Should all be under /var/, because they change.

 

Well I'm not an expert on this topic,

but this is my first interpretation of the guidelines.

Because we should design it prefect and then create work arounds.

My excuse for putting things in a hurry.

 

Regards,

 

Mark Breedveld,

 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-

Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens Dima
Barsky

Verzonden: maandag 22 maart 2010 18:55

Aan: web2py-users

Onderwerp: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

 

On Mar 22, 5:33 pm, Kuba Kucharski < 
kuba.kuchar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are two type of "apps":

> 

> the core, web2py itself

> 

> applications that runs in the web2py environment. Those have to be 

> editable. This is a hard case, since web2py is "kind of an OS itself", 

> this should be solved with /var.

 

Kuba, could you clarify please? Why do you think pre-packaged applications
have to be editable?

 

Debian is not unique in this respect, it is generally not a good idea to
modify applications after they have been deployed.  It makes bug reporting
and investigation much more difficult, it makes the intrusion detection
impossible.. should I continue?

 

Regards,

Dima.

 

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Kuba Kucharski]

There are two type of "apps":

the core, web2py itself

applications that runs in the web2py environment. Those have to be
editable. This is a hard case, since web2py is "kind of an OS itself",
this should be solved with /var.

-- 
Kuba

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RE: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Mark Breedveld]

Hi Dima,

I agree on the fact that it is not an elegant solution.
But till now we have we have two possible solutions.

The First one is to create a user web2py and make it a member of www-data. 
And put the application in the home folder which will work.
- No diskprotected multi-user system (or it has be programmed into web2py)
+ easy done with no modification to web2py
 

The second solution
With symlinks (see mail history)
+ multi-user and protected by file system
- possible securite leaks through web2py application data (Massimo?)
+ easy to update through apt

The read only problem could be fixed with the Group rights.
We could grant the www-data only write rights, 
And the web2py user only read rights and member of www-data group.
This will make sure that users can't read each other files, 
but still can write in the app dictory by its Group rights.

I hope to starting testing a few of those things on short notice.
But i'm quite busy at the moment, so it might take a few days.

And there are a few things more to discuss.
Coming in my following mail later this day.

Regards Mark Breedveld, 

Ps. Massimo could you make a seperation between app and user data?

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: web2py@googlegroups.com [mailto:web...@googlegroups.com] Namens Dima
Barsky
Verzonden: zondag 21 maart 2010 17:32
Aan: web2py-users
Onderwerp: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

Hi Mark,

The idea with symlinks might work, although it's not very elegant.

Packaging individual applications is not easy either, there is another
problem I forgot to mention. Currently web2py assumes that it has
write permissions for the whole web2py directories (including
subdirectories).  It creates various files inside the application's
directory - databases, error tickets, session-related files, and so
on.  That would never work with a debian package, all runtime files
should be created under /var/run.  In short, the web2py code should be
able to run from a read-only directory structure.  I guess it'll take
a fair amount of work to achieve this, I don't feel confident enough
to do this on my own. Any volunteers?

Regards,
Dima.


On Mar 21, 3:08 pm, Mark Breedveld  wrote:
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> Aldo my first reply suggested that I wanted to seperate the admin app.
> This not my intention.
> With web2py-.deb was for verified user apps from web2py.com.
>
> But still your interpretation of it ain't an wrong idee.
> For securite and vps reasons/situations it's required to run in there
> own directory.
>
> So if possible, we could link the application to user directory
> which means that every user that is running web2py will get a web2py
> directory.
> somethink like.
> /home//web2py/
> which contains a symlink to following directories
> /usr/local/bin/web2py/gluon/
> /usr/local/bin/web2py/scripts/
> and the following files
> /usr/local/bin/web2py/web2py.py
> and all other user independent files /*massimo knows which files that
> would be
> create directory
> /home//web2py/application
> put a symlink to
> /usr/local/bin/web2py/application/admin/
> then put under
> /home//web2py/
> parameters_8000.py
>
> Then create a start up entry for that user.
>
> There are a few problems with this plan.
> Does every user has his own web2py?
> Has web2py problems with symlinks?
> Is the symlink a real bottleneck for web2py and should there be a
> hardlink?
> Are the directories accoording the ubuntu guidlines?
>
> I fairly interested in your opinion.
>
> regards Mark Breedveld,
>
> On Mar 21, 1:15 pm, Dima Barsky  wrote:
>
> > On Mar 20, 5:01 pm, Mark Breedveld  wrote:
>
> > > The web2py community is searching help ondebian/ ubuntu packaging.
> > > The are concrete plans to deploy web2py as Turnkey Appliance.
>
> > Mark,
>
> > I'll see what I can do, although it might be not straightforward.
> > There is no clear separation in web2py between the library code and
> > the user code.  Take, for example, the admin application: it is
> > located under the applications directory nearby the user code, but
> > it's really part of the core, as web2py refuses to start without it.
>
> > I would say the first step should be to patch web2py to allow the user
> > code to be located somewhere else, not in the web2py directory, which
> > is currently not possible. I'll give it a go, but I'm not very
> > familiar with web2py internals, so I would appreciate a bit of help
> > from somebody more experienced. Once this is done, the actual
> > packaging will be quite simple.
>
> > Regards,
> > Dima.

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Re: [web2py] Re: Debian / Ubuntu packager needed!

[Thadeus Burgess]

How would you propose web2py to write sql.log, or its .table files
used in migrations for that matter?

-Thadeus





On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Dima Barsky  wrote:
> kaging individual applications is not easy either, there is another
> problem I forgot to mention. Currently web2py assu

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