Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Andrus Adamchik]

On Jun 16, 2007, at 1:56 AM, Pierre Bernard wrote:

Hibernate is a joke of a pile of crap! It is by no means a  
persistence framework. You might at best call it a SQL generator.  
No validation, no object graph management, makes you have SQL-like  
Strings in your Java code, ...


Hehe, hear ya :-) Coincidentally I am now working to add a new type  
of query to Cayenne [1] based on the JPA SQL-like object syntax  
(probably a lot like the Hibernate one). I really don't see this  
being used as a default query by our users for the reasons you've  
mentioned, still since the EJBQL syntax ("oh my god, he said  
'EJB'!" :-)) supports all kinds of SQL-inspired things (aggregates,  
subqueries, explicit join semantics etc.), I see it as a solution for  
those 10-20% of cases that normal object queries  
(EOFetchSpecification or Cayenne SelectQuery) don't handle very well.


Yes I know there are numerous extensions to EOFetchSpecification to  
do most of those extra things, and we've been doing that in Cayenne  
to some extent, but I always had a feeling I am stretching the basic  
object query concept too much when doing that.


Cheers,
Andrus

[1] http://cayenne.apache.org/doc/ejbqlquery.html
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Re: WO WWDC NDA

[Chuck Hill]

I _believe_ it will happen much sooner than the Leopard release.


On Jun 15, 2007, at 4:54 PM, Jeremy Matthews wrote:

So...since we can't hear what was discussed under NDA, does anyone  
care to wager a guess as to when their intentions (and the WWDC NDA  
info) will be made public?


Will we have to wait until Leopard is officially released?

I hope not...especially since the Apple Bridge/Tools are  
deprecatedthey shouldn't have to coincide with the release of  
an OS+Tools that are no longer the planned Application Dev IDE.


-j
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--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Pierre Bernard]

Beware of Hibernate!

* You cannot write clean code that ages well: you mix model  
information, java code and SQL in one file. The compiler cannot  
validate HQL/SQL


* No way to query the model. Thus no fancy stuff like D2W is possible

* No transactions !!! You must add Spring to get transactions. To bad  
Spring and Hibernate come from 2 competing groups.


* Validation does not work. E.g. you cannot trip a relationship while  
doing validation


* Implementing your own validation is close to impossible as there is  
no editing context keeping track of modified objects


* No object uniqueing This clearly shows that this was not meant  
as ORM but as SQL generator


* _Relying_ on aspect oriented programming for production is just  
bad. There is no way to predict what is going to happen



Add to that the "Hibernate experts" I had the pleasure to meet. They  
will come in droves to claim funny (read tragic) stuff:


* Business objects must be lightweight. So we should not put business  
code in there. That belongs into the UI


* MVC is for the UI layer only!


BTW, I have no trouble handling large amounts of data with EOF. It is  
just a matter of choosing the adequate strategies and tools.



Pierre Bernard
Houdah Software s.à r.l.


P.S: KVC is pretty easy to implement yourself using Java reflection


On Jun 15, 2007, at 8:16 PM, Dov Rosenberg wrote:

So far I have to agree with your assessment regarding the  
differences. While
we are still pretty early on in learning Hibernate and we have  
never used
any previous version than the current release. Here are some things  
that we

have found to be actually pretty cool about Hibernate:

* EOF and most Object relation tools tend to have a lot of issues  
dealing
with bulk operations. ORM tools in general like to create Objects  
by the
jillions. EOF allows you to do things like RawRows but you are  
still dealing
with large amounts of data. Hibernate allows you to deal with  
server side

cursors and have much finer grained control over the transaction.

* We can mix SQL and hibernate syntax in the same statement - while  
that
sounds bad it provides us with a great deal of flexibility in  
working with a

complex data model.

* The reliance on external caching mechanisms that can be  
configured via
property files is pretty nice. EOF shields a lot of what is going  
on and
being cached making it difficult to keep things in sync if and when  
changes
are made outside of our application. Short of invalidating objects  
after
everyuse we have had to rely on a JMS based change notification  
(which we

borrowed and modified from Wonder) to clear our caches.

* There is an extensive set of Qualifiers

Things I don't like about Hibernate:

* No centralized place to see the entire model. We use annotations  
which

leave all of the model information in the code.

* The syntax for creating qualifiers is not as elegant as EOF

* No key value coding

Overall Hibernate has a steep learning curve but once you get past  
the fact

that it isn't EOF it isn't too bad

Dov



On 6/15/07 6:56 PM, "Pierre Bernard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



We have been seriously investigating Hibernate.


No matter where in the world you are now. You might have heard me
crying!

I had the "pleasure" to be involved in a Hibernate project. I
wouldn't know where to start criticizing this whatever you want to
call it. I actually purged much of my memory on this experience as to
keep my mental sanity.

Hibernate is a joke of a pile of crap! It is by no means a
persistence framework. You might at best call it a SQL generator. No
validation, no object graph management, makes you have SQL-like
Strings in your Java code, ...

Pierre

- - -
Houdah Software s. à r. l.
http://www.houdah.com

HoudahGeo: One-stop photo geocoding
HoudahSpot: Powerful Spotlight frontend







- - -
Houdah Software s. à r. l.
http://www.houdah.com

HoudahGeo: One-stop photo geocoding
HoudahSpot: Powerful Spotlight frontend



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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Dov Rosenberg]

So far I have to agree with your assessment regarding the differences. While
we are still pretty early on in learning Hibernate and we have never used
any previous version than the current release. Here are some things that we
have found to be actually pretty cool about Hibernate:

* EOF and most Object relation tools tend to have a lot of issues dealing
with bulk operations. ORM tools in general like to create Objects by the
jillions. EOF allows you to do things like RawRows but you are still dealing
with large amounts of data. Hibernate allows you to deal with server side
cursors and have much finer grained control over the transaction.

* We can mix SQL and hibernate syntax in the same statement - while that
sounds bad it provides us with a great deal of flexibility in working with a
complex data model.

* The reliance on external caching mechanisms that can be configured via
property files is pretty nice. EOF shields a lot of what is going on and
being cached making it difficult to keep things in sync if and when changes
are made outside of our application. Short of invalidating objects after
everyuse we have had to rely on a JMS based change notification (which we
borrowed and modified from Wonder) to clear our caches.

* There is an extensive set of Qualifiers

Things I don't like about Hibernate:

* No centralized place to see the entire model. We use annotations which
leave all of the model information in the code.

* The syntax for creating qualifiers is not as elegant as EOF

* No key value coding

Overall Hibernate has a steep learning curve but once you get past the fact
that it isn't EOF it isn't too bad

Dov



On 6/15/07 6:56 PM, "Pierre Bernard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> We have been seriously investigating Hibernate.
> 
> No matter where in the world you are now. You might have heard me
> crying!
> 
> I had the "pleasure" to be involved in a Hibernate project. I
> wouldn't know where to start criticizing this whatever you want to
> call it. I actually purged much of my memory on this experience as to
> keep my mental sanity.
> 
> Hibernate is a joke of a pile of crap! It is by no means a
> persistence framework. You might at best call it a SQL generator. No
> validation, no object graph management, makes you have SQL-like
> Strings in your Java code, ...
> 
> Pierre
> 
> - - -
> Houdah Software s. à r. l.
> http://www.houdah.com
> 
> HoudahGeo: One-stop photo geocoding
> HoudahSpot: Powerful Spotlight frontend
> 
> 
> 

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Hibernate was Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Q]

On 16/06/2007, at 8:56 AM, Pierre Bernard wrote:


We have been seriously investigating Hibernate.


No matter where in the world you are now. You might have heard me  
crying!


I had the "pleasure" to be involved in a Hibernate project. I  
wouldn't know where to start criticizing this whatever you want to  
call it. I actually purged much of my memory on this experience as  
to keep my mental sanity.


On the bright side, you survived.

Hibernate is a joke of a pile of crap! It is by no means a  
persistence framework. You might at best call it a SQL generator.  
No validation, no object graph management, makes you have SQL-like  
Strings in your Java code, ...


In the style of Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear (BBC).

"So if you must to use Hibernate, don't, it's rubbish, use Cayenne  
instead".


(assuming EOF is not an option)

--
Seeya...Q

Quinton Dolan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
Ph: +61 419 729 806


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Re: Hibernate

[Andrew Lindesay]

Hello Dov;


I just wish
Apple would give it more respect and realize that the rest of the  
world

would benefit from it.


I might be being pessimistic, but I'm not so sure if significant  
portions of the software engineering population would have the  
mindset to really get into the groove with WO's architecture  
unfortunately.  I also think this small but vibrant community is a  
much happier and productive place like it is.



Project Wonder should be incorporated into EOF/WO ASAP by Apple.


I hope that does not happen.  All they need to do is to *very*  
carefully maintain EOF and the application server framework.


cheers.

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Andrew Lindesay
technology : www.lindesay.co.nz
business : www.silvereye.co.nz


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WO WWDC NDA

[Jeremy Matthews]

So...since we can't hear what was discussed under NDA, does anyone  
care to wager a guess as to when their intentions (and the WWDC NDA  
info) will be made public?


Will we have to wait until Leopard is officially released?

I hope not...especially since the Apple Bridge/Tools are  
deprecatedthey shouldn't have to coincide with the release of an  
OS+Tools that are no longer the planned Application Dev IDE.


-j
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D2WS, Fetch with Stored Procedure?

[seevion]

I am trying to make a fetch using a stored procedure via EO Modeler and 
would like some insight please.  I add the fetch to a table object and 
in the fetch interface select the 'SQL' tab.  Under this tab I click 
the 'Use Stored Procedures' toggle and see all SPROCs.  I try to select 
the one I want but no luck.  How do I select the SPROC I want to use 
from the list?  From there I'll try to use in in the D2WS app.


I know that many (most) of you don't like the idea of sprocs but I 
don't know of a better way to get the functionality I need into my D2WS 
project.  In case anyone is willing to suggest another way to get the 
needed functionality to a WSDL, here is what the sproc from MySQL 5.1 
looks like:


PARAMETER: TargetZip

BEGIN
SET @targetLng = (Select longitude from vw_ZCUG where zip= TargetZip);
SET @targetLat = (Select latitude from vw_ZCUG where zip= TargetZip );
SELECT vw_DealerLongLat.*, ROUND(ACOS(SIN(vw_DealerLongLat.latitude * 
0.017453293) * SIN(@targetLat * 0.017453293) + 
COS(vw_DealerLongLat.latitude * 0.017453293) * COS(@targetLat * 
0.017453293) * COS(@targetLng * 0.017453293 - 
vw_DealerLongLat.longitude * 0.017453293)) * 3956, 1) AS distance

FROM vw_DealerLongLat
WHERE Active_Flag = 1
ORDER BY distance ASC
LIMIT 10;
END


Essentially it shows "dealers" from nearest to furthest (based on a 
postal code) and includes the mile distance.  Works well as a Query in 
MySQL.   I tried raw SQL also but it didn't work the way I was doing 
it.  I need this to be a webservice so a client can input a postal and 
get the array returned.

Thanks for any insight and help.
--Mat

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How to Consume D2WS via .NET

[seevion]

For some reason the WSDL from D2WS isn't as well done as .NET users 
need.  For this reason I've made this little How-To for them and it may 
help others on this list to know.  Here it is in short:


.NET INSTRUCTIONS FOR CONSUMING WO D2WS...
To more easily consume these services with .NET, you need to make a few 
minor modifications:
•  try using the WS client tool inside the VS.Net IDE, do "Add Web 
Reference", and give it the URL
•  manually change all of the references to the name "Class" to 
"[Class]"
•  manually change the inconsistent namespace references from "default" 
to "http://WOserveraddress/";


Here is the simple method:
Figure out that you manually edit the code generated by the parser. 
That's normally hidden from view.  Specifically, in the IDE, highlight 
the project name, and select "Project...Show All Files" from the top 
menu.  Then expand the "Web References" tree, then the specific 
service, then the Reference Map, then edit the Reference.vb (or .cs if 
using C#) file.


After you point it to the URL for the WSDL, it grabs the WSDL file, 
parses it and spews all the code needed to connect.  The resulting 
classes then just become available to your project, same as any other.


IF STILL TROUBLESOME, ALSO TRY
After pulling the xml down and editing it locally (changing Class to 
[Class] and default to the ip) and adding the reference, remove-
    http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; 
targetNamespace="http://lang.java/";>

  
    
  
    
from each of the wsdl’s.



Hope this proves helpful.

--Mat

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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Pierre Bernard]

We have been seriously investigating Hibernate.


No matter where in the world you are now. You might have heard me  
crying!


I had the "pleasure" to be involved in a Hibernate project. I  
wouldn't know where to start criticizing this whatever you want to  
call it. I actually purged much of my memory on this experience as to  
keep my mental sanity.


Hibernate is a joke of a pile of crap! It is by no means a  
persistence framework. You might at best call it a SQL generator. No  
validation, no object graph management, makes you have SQL-like  
Strings in your Java code, ...


Pierre

- - -
Houdah Software s. à r. l.
http://www.houdah.com

HoudahGeo: One-stop photo geocoding
HoudahSpot: Powerful Spotlight frontend



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Re: RSA for WO

[Tore Halset]

On Jun 15, 2007, at 23:01, Thierry Kramis wrote:

so regardeless what radius authentication server we use we can pick  
jradius?


Probably. Back then I do not think radius was an valid option for our  
RSA SecurID server. Perhaps they added radius later or the radius  
support was in another product.


 - Tore.
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Re: Hibernate

[Guido Neitzer]

On 15.06.2007, at 14:06, Dov Rosenberg wrote:


Project Wonder should be incorporated into EOF/WO ASAP by Apple.


No, it shouldn't. They should take some of the ideas and add them to  
the core, but they should definitely not "integrate Wonder". Wonder  
is a huge framework maintained by a community that can react quickly  
without the hazzle of going through release cycles and having updates  
only coming with new Xcode versions.


Yes, WO should get some of the features of Wonder (like  
editingContext locking), but integrating it: No.


The last major upgrade to EOF was the daylight savings time update.  
Before that was probably the move to 5.0 from 4.x. I still love WO.  
I just wish Apple would give it more respect and realize that the  
rest of the world would benefit from it.


I see a couple of things lacking, but none of these aren't fixed  
either in Wonder or in other frameworks. So, why should I move away  
from WebObjects? And what is it exactly that you're missing?


cug
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Localization funnies (was: Re: WO 5.3.3/Tiger/No template found for component)

[Rick Innis]

On 13-Jun-07, at 1:58 PM, Ralf Schuchardt wrote:


Am 12.06.2007 um 18:57 schrieb Rick Innis:

From some previous searching I believe this may be connected to  
the fact that the applications affected are both localized, so the  
template it's looking exists in Contents/Resources/ 
{French,English}.lproj but not in Contents/Resources.


I have the same issue in one of my apps. It may happen when the  
browser language detection does not return not a valid language set  
(WORequest.browserLanguages).
There is the special language "Nonlocalized". According to the  
NSBundle documentation all Resources in this language get mapped to  
the Resources directory itself. You could put a fallback page here.


I ended up symlinking Contents/Resources/English.lproj/*.wo to  
Contents/Resources, which appears to work. However, I remain baffled  
as to why this is necessary. WORequest.browserLanguages looks OK - it  
prints as ("English","English") - but using this as input to  
session.setLanguages() didn't seem to matter a set of foetid dingoes  
kidneys.


The application basically consists of a static page and a few forms,  
available in both English and French, and each page is invoked via a  
method on DirectAction. defaultAction() invokes englishAction(), and  
frenchAction exists to allow switching from the English page to  
French one. Interestingly, calling /1/wa/ 
frenchAction actually *does* work as expected; calling url>/1/wa/englishAction does *not*.


I did track down the threads "A problem with localization" and  
"Strange WebObjects Localization,  need help" from a couple of years  
ago in the list archives, but none of what was suggested there seemed  
to help this situation either.


Since the workaround seems to work I'm not desperate for a fix, but I  
remain baffled as to why it's necessary. For further context and  
bafflement, it runs fine on my dev machines (both my G5 and my  
MacBook); the problem only manifests on the production server (to  
be), which is an Intel Xserve with a shiny fresh new install of Tiger  
Server, complete with all required patches. (The only difference I  
can think of is that the Xserve have Java 1.4.2 while the dev  
machines have 1.5, but I can't see that being a factor. Still, I  
suppose it's worth exploring...)


--Rick.

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Re: Hibernate

[Dov Rosenberg]

I think the WO community is a very strong one. I have been using WO since
1996. While Hibernate has a big learning curve to it ­ it has also made a
lot of forward progress in comparison to EOF. There are still a lot of
things I like about EOF including having a centralized place to look for
model information versus storing it in annotations inside the Java files,
and the handling of relationships, and key value coding to name a few. But
not having native support for databases like DB2, lack of easy to use
connection pooling (there are some things that can be done), a richer set of
Qualifiers, etc. Project Wonder should be incorporated into EOF/WO ASAP by
Apple.

The choice to move away from WO/EOF is a hard one ­ it is still one of the
most well designed frameworks on the market (we have looked at a lot of them
over the past few months) - it is hard to believe that it is 12 years old
already. The core group of the WO community including Chuck, Mike, and the
gang have been a huge help. I think in some respects having a smaller group
of users actually makes the group more cohesive and less fragmented. It has
been my experience that the average WO/EOF developer is much more
technically competent that other groups of developers. Maybe it is my biased
opinion.

The last major upgrade to EOF was the daylight savings time update. Before
that was probably the move to 5.0 from 4.x. I still love WO. I just wish
Apple would give it more respect and realize that the rest of the world
would benefit from it.

Dov Rosenberg


On 6/15/07 4:33 PM, "Jeremy Rosenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On 15-Jun-07, at 12:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> 1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture) anytime soon?
>> 2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?
>> 3. Any word on open source status?
>> 
>> 
>> We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has mountains of
>> documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF) and a
>> pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
>> replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be easy but in
>> light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice from a
>> business perspective.
>> 
>> Any news is good news.
>> 
>> Dov Rosenberg
> 
> 
> One of my colleagues has been using Hibernate because he's part of an open
> source project that requires him to find a solution outside of WebObjects.  He
> bitches about missing EOF almost daily (and that's after a year of working
> with it).  If there is no technological reason for you to leave WebObjects
> then it would be a mistake to do so.  If your concern is that you feel
> Hibernate or JSF has a more vibrant community then WebObjects then I think
> your concern is unfounded.  I'd be surprised if any community based initiative
> has a more committed core than WebObjects and that includes the dozens of
> developers within Apple projects, like iTunes and the Apple Store (I got that
> from Wikipedia, not from any specific knowledge gained at WWDC under NDA).
> 
> There's lots of news and it's all good news for anyone who hopes to continue
> working in WebObjects.
> 
> A wise man once said that there is nothing in the NDA against saying that you
> are happy, and I am very happy. :)
> 
> Jeremy
> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy Rosenberg 
> Systems Consultant
> Academic Computing Services
> Simon Fraser University
> Burnaby, BC, Canada V5A 1S6
> 
> Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> "AMAINT, provisioning good times since 1994!"
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
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Re: RSA for WO

[Thierry Kramis]

so regardeless what radius authentication server we use we can pick  
jradius?


Am 15.06.2007 um 22:56 schrieb Tore Halset:


Hello.

A couple of years ago I had to create an ugly jini binding to the  
securid c-library. Later we switched to Vasco and connect to the  
authentication server using jradius.


Regards,
 - Tore.

On Jun 13, 2007, at 16:28, Thierry Kramis wrote:


Have to clarify this: RAS SecurID...

Am 13.06.2007 um 16:22 schrieb Thierry Kramis:

Has anyone of you already implemented RSA to authenticate the  
user of his webobjects app?


tk


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Re: RSA for WO

[Tore Halset]

Hello.

A couple of years ago I had to create an ugly jini binding to the  
securid c-library. Later we switched to Vasco and connect to the  
authentication server using jradius.


Regards,
 - Tore.

On Jun 13, 2007, at 16:28, Thierry Kramis wrote:


Have to clarify this: RAS SecurID...

Am 13.06.2007 um 16:22 schrieb Thierry Kramis:

Has anyone of you already implemented RSA to authenticate the user  
of his webobjects app?


tk


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Hibernate

[Jeremy Rosenberg]

On 15-Jun-07, at 12:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture)  
anytime soon?

2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?
3. Any word on open source status?


We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has  
mountains of

documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF) and a
pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be  
easy but in

light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice from a
business perspective.

Any news is good news.

Dov Rosenberg



One of my colleagues has been using Hibernate because he's part of an  
open source project that requires him to find a solution outside of  
WebObjects.  He bitches about missing EOF almost daily (and that's  
after a year of working with it).  If there is no technological  
reason for you to leave WebObjects then it would be a mistake to do  
so.  If your concern is that you feel Hibernate or JSF has a more  
vibrant community then WebObjects then I think your concern is  
unfounded.  I'd be surprised if any community based initiative has a  
more committed core than WebObjects and that includes the dozens of  
developers within Apple projects, like iTunes and the Apple Store (I  
got that from Wikipedia, not from any specific knowledge gained at  
WWDC under NDA).


There's lots of news and it's all good news for anyone who hopes to  
continue working in WebObjects.


A wise man once said that there is nothing in the NDA against saying  
that you are happy, and I am very happy. :)


Jeremy






Jeremy Rosenberg
Systems Consultant
Academic Computing Services
Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, BC, Canada V5A 1S6

Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"AMAINT, provisioning good times since 1994!"


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AjaxGrid

[Thierry Kramis]

I was just lookin into ajax grid example. We've built something  
similiar, apart from some differences. But what we didn't get our row  
selection to be ajax capable. Who would we do this? Presently we are  
working with checkboxes. but selection a checkbox results in a normal  
action > page refresh. how can we do this the ajax way? is there  
something like a an AjaxCheckbox?


apart from that we implemented search capabilities in our navbar.  
what would be the most efficient way to do searches over multiple  
attributes?


say: doing search for string in surname and firstname field?

thanks
tk

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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Gavin Eadie]

At 11:42 AM -0700 6/15/07, Chuck Hill wrote:
The move would not be easy but in light of the lack of news I don't 
think we have a lot of choice from a business perspective.


... if this is a big deal for you, or your company, it might be worth 
the investment of a trip to Cupertino to talk to people directly.

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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Chuck Hill]

I don't think that what was not mentioned is under NDA so...


On Jun 15, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Dov Rosenberg wrote:


I am curious about a few things that perhaps people can comment on:

1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture)  
anytime soon?

2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?


Neither of those was mentioned, directly or indirectly.



3. Any word on open source status?


From private conversations: never.  This is just not going to  
happen.  Ever.



We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has  
mountains of

documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF) and a
pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be  
easy but in

light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice from a
business perspective.


You really have to attend WWDC if you want in depth news.  :-)


Chuck

--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[James Cicenia]

Well that is good to know. With all the non-news, and quite frankly  
disappointing news, I had no desire to spend the money and the time  
to go.

However, with this bit of news, I will definitely attend next year.

On Jun 15, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:



On Jun 15, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mark Ritchie wrote:


On 12-Jun-07, at 12:24 PM, netBrackets wrote:

Without giving any technical details, can you state whether you're:
A. More excited about WO than before the session.
B. Less excited about WO than before the session.
C. About the same.


A++ for the WO sessions, A+ for the week over all.

If you are doing WO, you _want_ to attend WOWODC and WWDC next year.

Chuck

--
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overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 15, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mark Ritchie wrote:


On 12-Jun-07, at 12:24 PM, netBrackets wrote:

Without giving any technical details, can you state whether you're:
A. More excited about WO than before the session.
B. Less excited about WO than before the session.
C. About the same.


A++ for the WO sessions, A+ for the week over all.

If you are doing WO, you _want_ to attend WOWODC and WWDC next year.

Chuck

--  

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Dov Rosenberg]

I am curious about a few things that perhaps people can comment on:

1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture) anytime soon?
2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?
3. Any word on open source status?


We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has mountains of
documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF) and a
pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be easy but in
light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice from a
business perspective.

Any news is good news.

Dov Rosenberg

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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[James Cicenia]

Well having devoted three full years with WebObjects I am finally  
feeling ok with my decision. Don't get me wrong the learning curve  
was steep,
however, I had a secret weapon back in the first six months... this  
list and Chuck.


I too now have a very nice success story with WebObjects. And, I just  
love working in it. Now I will buy a new 17" Powerbook, move to the  
latest version of eclipse and wolips ( I have been using an old g4  
powerbook with eclipse 2.2 and a very old version of wolips. It has  
served me well. Now after readign all the eclipse wolips lists, I  
feel that the time is right for my new upgrade.


So with that and with the news that people are happy about where  
WebObjects is going, all I can say is I am psyched again.


James Cicenia

On Jun 15, 2007, at 2:10 PM, Janine Sisk wrote:

The session list is never complete when first posted;  I don't  
think they make that very clear, but they add things all the time.   
There are even new sessions announced the night before sometimes.   
So It's best to make the assumption that there will be something  
for just about everyone.


Besides, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in feeling that the face  
time with other developers alone is worth the price of admission.   
Any actual sessions held and information imparted is just the icing  
on the cake.


janine

On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

When Apple first posted the sessions for WWDC, it looked like  
there would be absolutely nothing at all about WebObjects at the  
developers conference (I was under the impression that this was  
the major impetus for WOWODC).  So after WOWODC, I opted to skip  
WWDC and head back home.  I am now kicking myself since apparently  
there's more news regarding WebObjects this year than at any  
developer's conference in the past.  Of course, I'm merely  
speculating since any non-attendees are banned by the iron hand of  
Apple's NDA from knowing what all this cheery banter is about :)


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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Janine Sisk]

The session list is never complete when first posted;  I don't think  
they make that very clear, but they add things all the time.  There  
are even new sessions announced the night before sometimes.  So It's  
best to make the assumption that there will be something for just  
about everyone.


Besides, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in feeling that the face time  
with other developers alone is worth the price of admission.  Any  
actual sessions held and information imparted is just the icing on the  
cake.


janine

On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

When Apple first posted the sessions for WWDC, it looked like there  
would be absolutely nothing at all about WebObjects at the  
developers conference (I was under the impression that this was the  
major impetus for WOWODC).  So after WOWODC, I opted to skip WWDC  
and head back home.  I am now kicking myself since apparently  
there's more news regarding WebObjects this year than at any  
developer's conference in the past.  Of course, I'm merely  
speculating since any non-attendees are banned by the iron hand of  
Apple's NDA from knowing what all this cheery banter is about :)


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WOWODC recording

[Pascal Robert]

Hi,

a lot of people wants to know what's the deal with the WOWODC  
recording.  Like Chuck said a couple of days ago, we had some  
problems, and we need to check out what we will do.  For people who  
attended the conference, yes you will get some material, so don't  
worry about that.


I will send an another email to the lists in a couple of days when I  
have the exact details.

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Re: Ajax and Accessibility

[Mike Schrag]

This is obviously a challenge we have w/ the Ajax.framework as well.   
I met a couple people who asked questions about this at WWDC, and I  
would be very interested in having people who have experience with  
accessibility issues try out the framework and make recommendations  
to us on what reasonable "fallbacks" would be for the ajax components  
under various binding scenarios to make sure that it meets all the  
relevant international guidelines.


ms

On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Ray Kiddy wrote:



I have read this and I think it might be of more general interest  
in the wider web community. It is a bit academic, but is not too  
long. It is only 8 pages.


It describes the challenges of accessibility in Ajax-ified web  
pages. Web pages are no longer linear and static and this provides  
a challenge to the accessibility tools that are available.


thanx - ray



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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Steven Mark McCraw]

When Apple first posted the sessions for WWDC, it looked like there  
would be absolutely nothing at all about WebObjects at the developers  
conference (I was under the impression that this was the major  
impetus for WOWODC).  So after WOWODC, I opted to skip WWDC and head  
back home.  I am now kicking myself since apparently there's more  
news regarding WebObjects this year than at any developer's  
conference in the past.  Of course, I'm merely speculating since any  
non-attendees are banned by the iron hand of Apple's NDA from knowing  
what all this cheery banter is about :)



On Jun 15, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Janine Sisk wrote:

Hmm, I think I can only go so far as A+ - I guess I am just not as  
exuberant as Mark and Pierre.  Call it understated happiness. :)


janine


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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Gavin Eadie]

At 8:14 AM -0500 6/12/07, James Cicenia wrote:

Can we at least get a nugget like..

things are happening?
same as it always is.. nothing new.. just opensource.




We just finished the WebObjects Feedback session, about forty 
questions and suggestions to the Apple people up front.  What was 
different this year was that the audience and the stage were in synch 
- there was very little criticism of Apple, and what there was seemed 
reasonable and constructive (especially mine!).


As others have said, WWDC attendees are not allowed to disclose any 
of the material content of the presentations, but I'll join others 
here in saying things are looking good, in offering my thanks to the 
Apple team for making this year different, and to key members of our 
non-Apple community who have done heroic work this year.


We asked for a short note to this list from an Apple person - they 
can't disclose certain things either, but they know how close they 
can get to the line and stay safe!


A++
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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Janine Sisk]

Hmm, I think I can only go so far as A+ - I guess I am just not as  
exuberant as Mark and Pierre.  Call it understated happiness. :)


janine

On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Pierre Bernard wrote:


A++

On Jun 15, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mark Ritchie wrote:


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Ajax and Accessibility

[Ray Kiddy]

I have read this and I think it might be of more general interest in  
the wider web community. It is a bit academic, but is not too long.  
It is only 8 pages.


It describes the challenges of accessibility in Ajax-ified web pages.  
Web pages are no longer linear and static and this provides a  
challenge to the accessibility tools that are available.


thanx - ray

Subject: W4A Ajax Live Regions Paper
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 6/13/07 9:42 AM
Newsgroup: mozilla.dev.accessibility

Greetings,

Charles Chen and I presented our paper on Ajax Live Regions at the  
W4A 2007 conference. A special thanks to the Mozilla Foundation for  
funding our research. Below is a link to the Ajax Live regions paper  
followed by the Abstract as well as a shorter, summarized version of  
our paper for the W4A accessibility challenge. The papers discus ARIA  
live regions and show a practical example of   an Ajax chat, ReefChat  
(http://reefchat.overscore.com), exposing DOM updates using Live  
Regions to a screen reader, Fire Vox (http://www.firevox.clcworld.net).


Ajax Live Regions: Chat as a Case Example
http://www.w4a.info/2007/prog/1-thiessen.pdf

Abstract
Web 2.0 enabled by the Ajax architecture has given rise to a new  
level of user interactivity through web browsers. Many new and  
extremely popular Web applications have been introduced such as  
Google Maps, Google Docs, Flickr, and so on. Ajax Toolkits such as  
Dojo allow web developers to build Web 2.0 applications quickly and  
with little effort. Unfortunately, the accessibility support in most  
toolkits and Ajax applications overall is lacking. WAI-ARIA markup  
for live regions presents a solution to making these applications  
accessible. A chat example is presented that shows the live regions  
in action and demonstrates several limitations of ARIA live regions.



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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Pierre Bernard]

A++

On Jun 15, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Mark Ritchie wrote:


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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Mark Ritchie]

On 12-Jun-07, at 12:24 PM, netBrackets wrote:

Without giving any technical details, can you state whether you're:
A. More excited about WO than before the session.
B. Less excited about WO than before the session.
C. About the same.


Just to be clear, I'm A++
NDA precludes further specific comment ;-)
Mark
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Cocoa and WebObjects Developer
Diamond Lake Consulting Inc.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada



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Re: WO Template parsing

[Mike Schrag]

Project Wonder's ERXInlineTemplate with inline bindings enabled ...

ms

On Jun 15, 2007, at 1:15 AM, Cedarstone wrote:


Hi

We have a WO application that uses components to return strings to  
certain sections of a web page, pretty standard stuff.  However now  
we would like to be able to embed variables within those strings  
that get evaluated at runtime, essentially turning them into mini  
templates.  We don't use Wonder at the moment but I noticed  
ERXSimpleTemplateParser which is capable of handling a template  
like ... "Hello, @@name@@.  How are you feeling today?"  where name  
is obviously substituted for a value at runtime.  This may be a  
starting point for us but ideally we need something more powerful  
capable of handling @@user.address.postcode@@ where user and  
address are EOs also perhaps the handling of conditionals etc.


Clearly WO itself has all these abilities in its handling of  
component templates and I would like to try and leverage this.  My  
problem is where do I start!  I am assuming that people are already  
doing this, if so which WO classes should I be looking at?  Or even  
better are there any code snippets to get me started.


Many thanks

Giles
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D2W and D2WS together?

[Txinto Vaz]

Hi, is there a way to merge a Direct to Web and a Direct to Web Services
project so as to provide both interfaces to user while keeping the
assistants to change/tune/upgrade the web application functionalities?

I am developing an in-house application and I need a fast way to develop
the data management through web (Direct to Web) and to provide easily some
simple web services (Direct to Web Services).  I have test both assistants
separately and everything is ok.

As far I can see (I'm a newbie in WebObjects), each web application is
caching data from the database, so if I use the management side to change
values the services one will not "see" those changes.  I think the way is to
"freeze" the services once they are defined in the D2WS project, and then
try to import them to D2W project but...  is there a way to merge both
projects in one and continue using both assistants?

I have searched (using tools, not reading every word) the documentation
and googled, but found no way to do it.

Thank you.

Tx.

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Re: WO Template parsing

[Cedarstone]

Hi

As I guessed it looks like the hooks are there already.  Looks like  
WOComponent.templateWithHTMLString might be the starting point.


Giles


Hi

We have a WO application that uses components to return strings to  
certain sections of a web page, pretty standard stuff.  However now  
we would like to be able to embed variables within those strings  
that get evaluated at runtime, essentially turning them into mini  
templates.  We don't use Wonder at the moment but I noticed  
ERXSimpleTemplateParser which is capable of handling a template  
like ... "Hello, @@name@@.  How are you feeling today?"  where name  
is obviously substituted for a value at runtime.  This may be a  
starting point for us but ideally we need something more powerful  
capable of handling @@user.address.postcode@@ where user and  
address are EOs also perhaps the handling of conditionals etc.


Clearly WO itself has all these abilities in its handling of  
component templates and I would like to try and leverage this.  My  
problem is where do I start!  I am assuming that people are already  
doing this, if so which WO classes should I be looking at?  Or even  
better are there any code snippets to get me started.


Many thanks

Giles
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WO Template parsing

[Cedarstone]

Hi

We have a WO application that uses components to return strings to  
certain sections of a web page, pretty standard stuff.  However now  
we would like to be able to embed variables within those strings that  
get evaluated at runtime, essentially turning them into mini  
templates.  We don't use Wonder at the moment but I noticed  
ERXSimpleTemplateParser which is capable of handling a template  
like ... "Hello, @@name@@.  How are you feeling today?"  where name  
is obviously substituted for a value at runtime.  This may be a  
starting point for us but ideally we need something more powerful  
capable of handling @@user.address.postcode@@ where user and address  
are EOs also perhaps the handling of conditionals etc.


Clearly WO itself has all these abilities in its handling of  
component templates and I would like to try and leverage this.  My  
problem is where do I start!  I am assuming that people are already  
doing this, if so which WO classes should I be looking at?  Or even  
better are there any code snippets to get me started.


Many thanks

Giles
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Re: historical context ...

[Alexander Spohr]

Am 15.06.2007 um 09:13 schrieb Andrus Adamchik:

Once WO got cheap, it didn't make any sense for those consultants  
to continue to push it.  Imagine how many of the big 5 accounting  
firms would drop SAP if SAP where $249.95 ?


Still the idea that the price drop caused WO being squeezed out of  
the enterprise market is a myth.


Andrus, this is wrong. At least for Germany. We had an Apple sales  
force that pushed WO in almost every big player. Then Steve dropped  
the price at WWDC - and the Apple Germany sales guys did not know it  
in advance! The crowd cheered and we sat there aghast, as we just  
sold some licenses to the big T for 3/4 million DM. Another  
Consultant in a different company bought some at the same time and  
was lucky because he did not open that package and so could just give  
them back to Apple without reason, and then buy the cheap version.


Anyway, the sales team was not interested any more in WO as it made  
no more money. We where too small with just 50 people to invade the  
big companies with a 699-product. And did any of those big ones ever  
look at you from the side? Thinking what a stupid product you sold  
them for a 100k when in fact it was worth only 699? What a bad, bad  
feeling for the customer and us.


Another example is the biggest all-inclusive-travel company in  
Germany. We where three developers to manage their whole web site. We  
connected to plain ASCII-files, some databases and even the Amdahl- 
host in the cellar.
Then they got a bigger budget (around 10 millions), that screamed for  
more developers but WO was just to cheap by now. So they went to IBM  
as they had everything expensive to spend the 10 millons on. IBM  
needed 1.5 years to replicate with WebSphere what we had with WO...


I have more stories of the kind „WO going cheap, everyone runs“

There are other more realistic explanations that's been mentioned,  
but the price drop was simply a reaction to the given technology  
becoming a commodity, with alternatives tools being either free as  
in beer or free as in open source.


What is the current price of BEA WebLogic?
Any info on WebSpheres prices?
Those where the competitors.

SAP market is not nearly as commoditized as web application market,  
so that comparison is wrong.


This is true.

In other words, if Apple were to reinstate WO "enterprise pricing",  
WO use would go from hundreds (possibly thousands) of installations  
to single digits.


First i think it is to late to do so.

But really, I'd sell 1 WO licenses for 100k and consulting in a  
fitting range instead of explaining every customer for $0 why I want  
to use WO and not Struts to make better software faster.


atze

ps. I know that this went different in other countries where Apple  
had own developers and tried to snatch the good projects from the  
external companies. I must say that the German version worked _very_  
good for Apple and the free companies - Germany sold the most WO  
licenses worldwide as I recall...


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Re: Moving to Eclipse...at least trying...

[Paul Stringer]

Application application = (Application)Application.application();


That should work but if it doesn't just check your imports to make  
sure the Application is coming out of the correct package - class  
cast sounds like you may have the wrong Application imported. It  
should be coming from  com.company.yourprojectname. Be wary of the  
com.apple.eawt package that also has an Application.


If you don't have any packages yet start making them. Thats one of  
the first big differences you find between XCode and Eclipse. If your  
like me you'd never probably used packages in XCode and just relied  
on folders for organising code. Also of note unlike XCode, Eclipse  
doesn't populate every class with all the WebObjects imports, you do  
it as you need them. Also look at the 'organise imports' in the  
Source menu, pretty cool.


So to access my applications resource manager in session I do the  
same as you


((Application)WOApplication.application()).resourceManager();

If you do this and you've never accessed Application in Session then  
you see an error with Application underlined red (Jeremy can add this  
to the list of pros of using eclipse). Then to fix it click the light  
bulb in the margin and import your package with your Application that  
is extending ERXApplication. If theres no error look  through all  
your imports and have a look where Application is coming from.


Again if it doesn't work then something is broken. There are a few  
hurdles moving to Eclipse but really it is worth and it's mostly  
teething issues and nothing too difficult to fix.


Paul

On Jun 15, 2007, at 5:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Application application = (Application)Application.application();

Should work. If it doesn't, something is broken.


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Re: historical context ...

[Janine Sisk]

On Jun 14, 2007, at 10:15 AM, Mark Morris wrote:

I also had the impression that WO was taken more seriously when it  
had high-end pricing.  Interesting, isn't it?


I find this to be generally true in our business;  the more a client  
pays us, the more respectfully they treat us and the easier they are  
to work with.  Some of our most demanding sites are the ones we do  
either for free or for extremely little money, for friends or good  
causes. You would think that it would be the other way around, but the  
pattern has been very consistent.  It seems to be part of human nature  
to think that something is "better" if it is expensive, without  
evaluating carefully to see if that's really true.  The fashion  
industry is almost entirely based on this principle. :)


janine

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Re: historical context ...

[Andrus Adamchik]

The only way WebObjects was really usable was when consultants with  
experience and skills brought it into a company and applied it's  
capabilities intelligently.


Being a WO consultant myself, I agree on this.

Once WO got cheap, it didn't make any sense for those consultants  
to continue to push it.  Imagine how many of the big 5 accounting  
firms would drop SAP if SAP where $249.95 ?


Still the idea that the price drop caused WO being squeezed out of  
the enterprise market is a myth. There are other more realistic  
explanations that's been mentioned, but the price drop was simply a  
reaction to the given technology becoming a commodity, with  
alternatives tools being either free as in beer or free as in open  
source. SAP market is not nearly as commoditized as web application  
market, so that comparison is wrong. In other words, if Apple were to  
reinstate WO "enterprise pricing", WO use would go from hundreds  
(possibly thousands) of installations to single digits.


Andrus


On Jun 14, 2007, at 11:24 PM, Ken Anderson wrote:
Actually, I think the result was totally predictable - in fact, I  
predicted it.


The only way WebObjects was really usable was when consultants with  
experience and skills brought it into a company and applied it's  
capabilities intelligently.  Once WO got cheap, it didn't make any  
sense for those consultants to continue to push it.  Imagine how  
many of the big 5 accounting firms would drop SAP if SAP where  
$249.95 ?


Ken

On Jun 14, 2007, at 4:16 PM, Paul Yu wrote:

You are correct.  WebObjects is one of the only examples of a  
totally weird economic model.  Drop the price, demand drops.   
Isn't it suppose to be the other way around?


Once the price dropped, Apple could not support a major software  
sales force to push WebObjects.  Many of the IT shops just lost  
track of WO.  It wasn't taken seriously because it was too cheap,  
but not open source.  It did not show up on anyone's radar because  
there was no sales force to push it.   Many of the high-end  
consulting services companies also suffered tremendously because  
of the price drop.  So we end up where we are now.


Hopefully, with WO 5.4 things will be better.

Paul
On Jun 14, 2007, at 1:36 PM, webobjects-dev- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



From: Mark Morris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 14, 2007 1:15:32 PM EDT
To: WebObjects Apple Dev 
Subject: Re: historical context ...


Poor choice of words on my part, I meant unlimited clients, per  
server.


I also had the impression that WO was taken more seriously when  
it had high-end pricing.  Interesting, isn't it?


Regards,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 11:40 AM, Alexander Spohr wrote:


I remember these prices:

 Developer: $3000
Deployment: $100.000 (Per System, unlimited CPUs)
Dep-Backup: $50.000

So there never was an unlimited deployment.

And that where the best times for WO; you could sell it to the  
Big Players.
After the price-drop no one took WO seriously anymore. It almost  
killed the high-end market.


atze

ps. We started using WO with version 0.9...


Am 14.06.2007 um 16:19 schrieb Mark Morris:

As I recall (and I didn't start with WebObjects until 1997, so  
it could have been different in 1995 ;-), it was $50K for an  
unlimited deployment license.  I believe the per developer  
costs were much, much less, but I can't remember specifics.

-- Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Cheong Hee (Datasonic) wrote:

It was once even voted by developers as the top 3 Java  
Developer Tools in one of the surveys, if I could recall  
correctly ...


The price at that time was nearly USD40k per developer license!



Wait a minute...

On Jun 13, 2007, at 11:43 PM, Gavin Eadie wrote:


The approach, which supports development for Sun's Java, will
allow programmers to vastly expand offerings on the Web,  
changing

it from a fairly static medium to a more interactive one.


Did it start out supporting Java, then switch to Objective- 
C, and

then back to Java???  If so, I had missed that part.


No, I assume that was a misunderstanding by the original  
journalist,

like the comment about writing web browser plug-ins.

WebObjects was originally written for Objective C; WebScript was
added later, and Java was added even later still.

Paul

PS Shame I can't be at WWDC; in other news, the root canal  
treatment

is going well.




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