RE: 2009 surveys results
Greetings Tim, I tend to agree with you. Since I am out in Southern California doing my long internship, it might be good for us to collaborate more closely. While I have the resources of Texas Tech (as I am a student there), it would be nice to see what I can contribute through UCLA and other institutions in the area. Also, is there a Cocoa Heads or WO group here in Southern California where we can participate and share insight? I know that the one at Texas Tech, I had to form it. But, I would suspect that there are more WO and Cocoa developers out here in. Later, Daniel Beatty Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch Code 474300D 2400 E. Pilot Plant Rd. M/S 1109 China Lake, CA 93555 daniel.bea...@navy.mil (760)939-7097 -Original Message- From: webobjects-dev-bounces+daniel.beatty=navy@lists.apple.com [mailto:webobjects-dev-bounces+daniel.beatty=navy@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Tim Worman Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 20:42 To: Ken Foust Cc: webobjects Apple; Miguel Arroz Subject: Re: 2009 surveys results I think there are definitely great materials available to learn about WebObjects, WOLips, Wonder. Like Ken said, I think the real issue is that all the materials are very scattered across different sites. More than any technological concerns, I think the lack of cohesiveness is what could leave interested parties with the impression that it's a rag-tag group of enthusiasts. I think good stuff is happening to mitigate that. The truth is the technology is as pertinent as ever. Apple bases their own business on it and it's definitely worthwhile for developers to pursue the materials wherever they are. I think it could definitely be a game changer if there was a one-stop place for all the materials. Tim UCLA GSEIS On Oct 24, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Ken Foust wrote: I suspect if you don't pull together the best technology will die. I still go back to apple depreciating the tools and dropping WO. It would be a hell of a lot easier if they at least had it as a option. They should have you guys go back and bring it up to speed and then start reselling it again with a good part of the proceeds going back to you people. Apple is building that big server farm in NC and could provide a very attractive solution to many companies. Apple should probably re-vist the corporate world even if in a small way, this of course would be one way. It is obvious that the technology is very sound thanks to you all and even the ones who are trying to keep WO 4.5 alive. It may be crazy but I think WO should be back in the Cocoa world and you guys could do that quite easily with the support of apple. The windows people may not like it but Mac are getting cheaper :) thats my take On Oct 23, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40glob al-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP
Re: 2009 surveys results
- Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net a écrit : On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. I didn't add them to the podcast feed because iTunes won't handle Flash files. I guess I have to find a way to add Flash podcast to the new site and filtering them out from the RSS feed. But QuickTime, MP3 and PDF files are prefered, for more visibility :-) If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl%40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hi Don, This is good stuff. How would anyone know your good materials exist? I think it is a good idea, whether a blog, tutorials, videos, to put cross-links to those on at least the following two places somewhere: wiki.objectstyle.org (any of us can edit that) wocommunity.org (Pascal) Try googling for WOLips Install Tutorial and see what you find. The first two google results point to wiki.objectstyle.org so cross-link to your tutorials from there even linking to specific pages on your site from pages that deal with similar topics. Regards, Kieran On Oct 24, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) Don On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl%40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list
Re: 2009 surveys results
Don - why not put your stuff on the wiki? Maybe it's not got much attention because nobody can find it ? For info I can't even access it on my iPhone. - I just get a blank page Simon On Sunday, October 25, 2009, Kieran Kelleher kieran_li...@mac.com wrote: Hi Don, This is good stuff. How would anyone know your good materials exist? I think it is a good idea, whether a blog, tutorials, videos, to put cross-links to those on at least the following two places somewhere: wiki.objectstyle.org (any of us can edit that) wocommunity.org (Pascal) Try googling for WOLips Install Tutorial and see what you find. The first two google results point to wiki.objectstyle.org so cross-link to your tutorials from there even linking to specific pages on your site from pages that deal with similar topics. Regards, Kieran On Oct 24, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) Don On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.appl http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.cahttp://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kieran_lists%40mac.com This email sent to kieran_li...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/simon%40potwells.co.uk This email sent to si...@potwells.co.uk ___ Do not post admin requests to the
Re: 2009 surveys results
On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: - Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net a écrit : On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. I didn't add them to the podcast feed because iTunes won't handle Flash files. I guess I have to find a way to add Flash podcast to the new site and filtering them out from the RSS feed. But QuickTime, MP3 and PDF files are prefered, for more visibility :-) If quicktime can handle it, iTunes can load it. It might not play on an iPod, but you can wrap the video in a SMIL and hand it to Quicktime like I did with my 'hire me' podcast back in January. Here's the file that does the magic... SMILtext!DOCTYPE smil PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD SMIL 1.0//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-smil/SMIL10.dtd; smil xmlns:qt=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/resources/smilextensions; head layout root-layout id=main width=1280 height=720 background-color=black title=R2D2W / region id=r1 width=1280 height=720 top=0 left=0 title=Movie Sequence / /layout /head body seq img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Intro.pct; region=r1 alt=Introduction dur=00:10 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Intro.mov; region=r1 alt=Describe the reasons for the video. / img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Poster1.pct; region=r1 alt=Standards Compliant poster frame dur=00:03 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/ValidMarkup.mov; region=r1 alt=Demonstrates that R2D2W produces fully validating markup./ img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Poster2.pct; region=r1 alt=Localization poster frame dur=00:03 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Localization.mov; region=r1 alt=Demonstrates that R2D2W is fully localized./ img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Poster3.pct; region=r1 alt=User management poster frame dur=00:03 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/UserManagment.mov; region=r1 alt=Demonstrates R2D2W user management features./ img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Poster4.pct; region=r1 alt=RSS amp; Podcasting poster frame dur=00:03 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/DirectActions.mov; region=r1 alt=Demonstrates R2D2W's use of direct actions./ img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Poster5.pct; region=r1 alt=Section 508 poster frame dur=00:03 / video type=video/quicktime title=Introduction src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Section508.mov; region=r1 alt=Demonstrates some accessibility features of R2D2W./ a href=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/Resume.html;img src=http://www.me.com/ix/rgurley/Public/r2d2w/End.pct; region=r1 alt=The End dur=00:03 //a /seq /body /smil the trick is to add SMILtext to the very beginning of your SMIL file. Then just change the extension to mov. If you can work with QT's quirky implementation of SMIL, then iTunes will love you. Unfortunately it seems QuickTime's flash support is pretty weak these days. It once was able to play up to flash 5 videos I think. Trying to open http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.swf in QuickTime today was rather disappointing. Ramsey If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the
Re: 2009 surveys results
On 2009-10-25, at 10:13 AM, Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: - Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net a écrit : On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. I didn't add them to the podcast feed because iTunes won't handle Flash files. I guess I have to find a way to add Flash podcast to the new site and filtering them out from the RSS feed. But QuickTime, MP3 and PDF files are prefered, for more visibility :-) If quicktime can handle it, iTunes can load it. It might not play on an iPod, but you can wrap the video in a SMIL and hand it to Quicktime like I did with my 'hire me' podcast back in January. Here's the file that does the magic... smil.txt the trick is to add SMILtext to the very beginning of your SMIL file. Then just change the extension to mov. If you can work with QT's quirky implementation of SMIL, then iTunes will love you. Unfortunately it seems QuickTime's flash support is pretty weak these days. It once was able to play up to flash 5 videos I think. Trying to open http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.swf in QuickTime today was rather disappointing. With Don's approval, we can just transcode them to a more iTunes/ iPhone/iPod friendly format. Ramsey If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto %40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hello Chuck; http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. You are correct, I should not have cut and pasted. :) Don On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:42 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl%40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not
Re: 2009 surveys results
You are more than welcome to transfer them to a format better suited to reach the masses. They were created with Adobe Captivate, don't know if that makes any difference. They are essentially screen recordings, I did not use any interactive options within these tutorials that I remember. Thanks Don On Oct 25, 2009, at 11:16 AM, David LeBer wrote: On 2009-10-25, at 10:13 AM, Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: - Chuck Hill ch...@global-village.net a écrit : On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. I didn't add them to the podcast feed because iTunes won't handle Flash files. I guess I have to find a way to add Flash podcast to the new site and filtering them out from the RSS feed. But QuickTime, MP3 and PDF files are prefered, for more visibility :-) If quicktime can handle it, iTunes can load it. It might not play on an iPod, but you can wrap the video in a SMIL and hand it to Quicktime like I did with my 'hire me' podcast back in January. Here's the file that does the magic... smil.txt the trick is to add SMILtext to the very beginning of your SMIL file. Then just change the extension to mov. If you can work with QT's quirky implementation of SMIL, then iTunes will love you. Unfortunately it seems QuickTime's flash support is pretty weak these days. It once was able to play up to flash 5 videos I think. Trying to open http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.swf in QuickTime today was rather disappointing. With Don's approval, we can just transcode them to a more iTunes/ iPhone/iPod friendly format. Ramsey If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: 2009 surveys results
I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) Don On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto %40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl %40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
I suspect if you don't pull together the best technology will die. I still go back to apple depreciating the tools and dropping WO. It would be a hell of a lot easier if they at least had it as a option. They should have you guys go back and bring it up to speed and then start reselling it again with a good part of the proceeds going back to you people. Apple is building that big server farm in NC and could provide a very attractive solution to many companies. Apple should probably re-vist the corporate world even if in a small way, this of course would be one way. It is obvious that the technology is very sound thanks to you all and even the ones who are trying to keep WO 4.5 alive. It may be crazy but I think WO should be back in the Cocoa world and you guys could do that quite easily with the support of apple. The windows people may not like it but Mac are getting cheaper :) thats my take On Oct 23, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto %40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Greetings Ken and Don, I have managed to see to hopeful results. In some cases, it was presented with reference to Don's tutorials, Chuck's books, and a lot of researching the issue. The hope I have seen is the students who got the idea about WO and D2W in a class where I served as TA. Obviously, there were die hard MS fans there too. But a few came by after class to learn more about it and how it could help them solve the DBMS problems they had for the class. It may just be a handful, but it is a start. Furthermore, that was only 3 class sessions out of a typical 48 held during a semester. I am finishing my dissertation this academic year. WO contributes a substantial amount of technology to facilitate the prototype's implementation. Furthermore, WO and D2W are mentioned in print (2 academic circles and upcoming in the process of submission.)It may not be much, but it does get some people asking how can WO help them. Later, Dan On Oct 24, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Ken Foust wrote: I suspect if you don't pull together the best technology will die. I still go back to apple depreciating the tools and dropping WO. It would be a hell of a lot easier if they at least had it as a option. They should have you guys go back and bring it up to speed and then start reselling it again with a good part of the proceeds going back to you people. Apple is building that big server farm in NC and could provide a very attractive solution to many companies. Apple should probably re-vist the corporate world even if in a small way, this of course would be one way. It is obvious that the technology is very sound thanks to you all and even the ones who are trying to keep WO 4.5 alive. It may be crazy but I think WO should be back in the Cocoa world and you guys could do that quite easily with the support of apple. The windows people may not like it but Mac are getting cheaper :) thats my take On Oct 23, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email
Re: 2009 surveys results
I am glad to hear it. Web Objects is incredible. Don On Oct 24, 2009, at 10:03 PM, Daniel Beatty wrote: Greetings Ken and Don, I have managed to see to hopeful results. In some cases, it was presented with reference to Don's tutorials, Chuck's books, and a lot of researching the issue. The hope I have seen is the students who got the idea about WO and D2W in a class where I served as TA. Obviously, there were die hard MS fans there too. But a few came by after class to learn more about it and how it could help them solve the DBMS problems they had for the class. It may just be a handful, but it is a start. Furthermore, that was only 3 class sessions out of a typical 48 held during a semester. I am finishing my dissertation this academic year. WO contributes a substantial amount of technology to facilitate the prototype's implementation. Furthermore, WO and D2W are mentioned in print (2 academic circles and upcoming in the process of submission.)It may not be much, but it does get some people asking how can WO help them. Later, Dan On Oct 24, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Ken Foust wrote: I suspect if you don't pull together the best technology will die. I still go back to apple depreciating the tools and dropping WO. It would be a hell of a lot easier if they at least had it as a option. They should have you guys go back and bring it up to speed and then start reselling it again with a good part of the proceeds going back to you people. Apple is building that big server farm in NC and could provide a very attractive solution to many companies. Apple should probably re-vist the corporate world even if in a small way, this of course would be one way. It is obvious that the technology is very sound thanks to you all and even the ones who are trying to keep WO 4.5 alive. It may be crazy but I think WO should be back in the Cocoa world and you guys could do that quite easily with the support of apple. The windows people may not like it but Mac are getting cheaper :) thats my take On Oct 23, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com)
Re: 2009 surveys results
I think there are definitely great materials available to learn about WebObjects, WOLips, Wonder. Like Ken said, I think the real issue is that all the materials are very scattered across different sites. More than any technological concerns, I think the lack of cohesiveness is what could leave interested parties with the impression that it's a rag-tag group of enthusiasts. I think good stuff is happening to mitigate that. The truth is the technology is as pertinent as ever. Apple bases their own business on it and it's definitely worthwhile for developers to pursue the materials wherever they are. I think it could definitely be a game changer if there was a one-stop place for all the materials. Tim UCLA GSEIS On Oct 24, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Ken Foust wrote: I suspect if you don't pull together the best technology will die. I still go back to apple depreciating the tools and dropping WO. It would be a hell of a lot easier if they at least had it as a option. They should have you guys go back and bring it up to speed and then start reselling it again with a good part of the proceeds going back to you people. Apple is building that big server farm in NC and could provide a very attractive solution to many companies. Apple should probably re-vist the corporate world even if in a small way, this of course would be one way. It is obvious that the technology is very sound thanks to you all and even the ones who are trying to keep WO 4.5 alive. It may be crazy but I think WO should be back in the Cocoa world and you guys could do that quite easily with the support of apple. The windows people may not like it but Mac are getting cheaper :) thats my take On Oct 23, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list
Re: 2009 surveys results
On Oct 24, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Don Lindsay wrote: I agree with Robert, I created several tutorials for WebObjects as well as an installer for windows and linux. This is something that I use my spare time to support. Based on my review of hits to the tutorials, they are rarely accessed. I probably knew about these at one time, but forgot. Self promotion might be a good thing here. :-) Are there links from the WO Community site? I think they should be. If they were used more, I would create more of them. The tutorials I made are available at: http://web.me.com/pccdonl/tutorials/WoLipsInstall.htm as is the installer. (I havent updated the installer in a couple of months) http://web.me.com/pccdonl/ I think you mean. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/pccdonl%40mac.com This email sent to pccd...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Not any more.. :) I also noticed that the docs are disappearing off the Apple site. Not sure if one is allowed to repost those somewhere else without drawing the wrath of Apple lawyers. If the docs are on the apple site, they sure as hell are hard to find, as most URLs redirect to the MacOSX documentation center which has 0 WO docs. On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Miguel Arroz ar...@guiamac.com wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Ah.. found them.. http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/navigation/index.html Ignore the WebObjects Reference Library links on webobjects.com / http://developer.apple.com/tools/webobjects/ On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Joe Little jmlit...@gmail.com wrote: Not any more.. :) I also noticed that the docs are disappearing off the Apple site. Not sure if one is allowed to repost those somewhere else without drawing the wrath of Apple lawyers. If the docs are on the apple site, they sure as hell are hard to find, as most URLs redirect to the MacOSX documentation center which has 0 WO docs. On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Miguel Arroz ar...@guiamac.com wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
It was really, really, very not profitable the first time either. :-| That is not why we wrote it. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: If we are really only have +- 400 developers outside of Apple, I don't think writing a book is profitable. I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
On Oct 22, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Daniel Beatty wrote: Greetings Jeremy, Well you are right. It has been difficult to make a curriculum that shows off WO. It can be used some in most DBMS, Web Software Engineering, and Design Patterns courses. In each case, it is more or less used as an example. Unfortunately, getting to teach it is an up hill battle considering how many other technologies flood ACM and IEEE's conferences with junk frameworks. Not mentioning any by name, but they have evil in their nickname. None the less, there are some starts. Hopefully as I become a professor that can change. That would be very interesting. I'd bet that Apple would like to see that. Chuck On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Jeremy DE ROYER wrote: Hello, Results are interesting but unfortunately they show that webobjects technologie miss beginners... Jérémy DE ROYER Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:01, Pascal Robert a écrit : Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net This email sent to jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/danielbeatty%40mac.com This email sent to danielbea...@mac.com Dan Beatty, M.S. CS (B.S. EECS) Ph.D. Student Texas Tech University dan.bea...@mac.com http://venus.cs.ttu.edu/~dabeatty http://web.me.com/danielbeatty/My_Home_Page/Welcome.html ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
BTW, the 400 devs count is from the total number of devs as told by the results of the org survey, good chance that the community is bigger, but for now the survey is the only way to have a count. I don't access to the number of subscribers to the lists or other counts that can give a better view of the community. If we are really only have +- 400 developers outside of Apple, I don't think writing a book is profitable. I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
RE: 2009 surveys results
Greetings Chuck, Yeah, you could have stranger titles. Of course, those of us were learning WO for the first time and getting to know and love WOLips certainly appreciated the book. I should probably join you on that effort. It is simply a matter of learning from the success and failure of teaching WO and slipping it in to academia. WO has some great mathematical properties. Most notably in the design patterns employed by EO, D2W, and the application engine itself. Thus it is note worthy in the academic community. Despite that, it is really hard to penetrate that genre. Hopeful, my day job will offer more luck. The bat school seems to include a lot of bumpy knocks. Later, Daniel Beatty Computer Scientist, Detonation Sciences Branch Code 474300D 2400 E. Pilot Plant Rd. M/S 1109 China Lake, CA 93555 daniel.bea...@navy.mil (760)939-7097 -Original Message- From: webobjects-dev-bounces+daniel.beatty=navy@lists.apple.com [mailto:webobjects-dev-bounces+daniel.beatty=navy@lists.apple.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Hill Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:52 To: John Larson Cc: webobjects Apple; Miguel Arroz Subject: Re: 2009 surveys results On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-v illage.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/daniel.beatty%40navy.mil This email sent to daniel.bea...@navy.mil smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hi! Usually between 5 and 10% of any group of people answer surveys. So I guess we are much more. :) Yours Miguel Arroz On 2009/10/23, at 19:00, Pascal Robert wrote: BTW, the 400 devs count is from the total number of devs as told by the results of the org survey, good chance that the community is bigger, but for now the survey is the only way to have a count. I don't access to the number of subscribers to the lists or other counts that can give a better view of the community. If we are really only have +- 400 developers outside of Apple, I don't think writing a book is profitable. I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz%40guiamac.com This email sent to ar...@guiamac.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
...and you also don't know how many people within Apple would buy it if Chuck was to write another book. Alan On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: BTW, the 400 devs count is from the total number of devs as told by the results of the org survey, good chance that the community is bigger, but for now the survey is the only way to have a count. I don't access to the number of subscribers to the lists or other counts that can give a better view of the community. If we are really only have +- 400 developers outside of Apple, I don't think writing a book is profitable. I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award %40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
The problem with this is time... I was thinking of a online book where you can ask O'Reilly or other publisher to print it and sell it to give back to writers, like Thinking in Java or the MySQL manual are. And frankly, based on the number of people who wanted to attend WOWODC East for the beginner track was so low that's part of the reason we dropped it (the track). But at the same time, people say in the surveys that the scarity of developers is a problem, so it's a chicken- and-egg problem. And also the fact that's is always the same group of 10-15 persons who give back to the community, which is, speaking only for myself, a burden. IMHO You gurus need to put out a few really in-depth tutorials. Maybe each could do a little piece. It is hard to sell something like WO without a good way for people to get in the loop. You may want to review Joshua' Marker's book on WO which I thought was the absolute best for attracting new people to the technology. After reading this book you could actually build a functioning WO site. You could easily do this with a few very good tutorials. ken On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Oct 23, 2009, at 10:27 AM, John Larson wrote: I'm kind of goading Chuck on to write a sequel to Practical WebObjects. How about Absurdly Cool WebObjects? The Book of Chuck? WebObjects: Getting Chunky Wid It? I won't say never, but right now I am having a hard time getting the time to finish WOVNG. Chuck On Oct 23, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/10/23, at 17:46, John Kim Larson wrote: without having the patience to read the manual, Is there a manual? Yours Miguel Arroz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/fousto%40me.com This email sent to fou...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Greetings Jeremy, Well you are right. It has been difficult to make a curriculum that shows off WO. It can be used some in most DBMS, Web Software Engineering, and Design Patterns courses. In each case, it is more or less used as an example. Unfortunately, getting to teach it is an up hill battle considering how many other technologies flood ACM and IEEE's conferences with junk frameworks. Not mentioning any by name, but they have evil in their nickname. None the less, there are some starts. Hopefully as I become a professor that can change. Later, Dan On Oct 21, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Jeremy DE ROYER wrote: Hello, Results are interesting but unfortunately they show that webobjects technologie miss beginners... Jérémy DE ROYER Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:01, Pascal Robert a écrit : Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer%40ingencys.net This email sent to jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/danielbeatty%40mac.com This email sent to danielbea...@mac.com Dan Beatty, M.S. CS (B.S. EECS) Ph.D. Student Texas Tech University dan.bea...@mac.com http://venus.cs.ttu.edu/~dabeatty http://web.me.com/danielbeatty/My_Home_Page/Welcome.html ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hello, Results are interesting but unfortunately they show that webobjects technologie miss beginners... Jérémy DE ROYER Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:01, Pascal Robert a écrit : Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jeremy.deroyer %40ingencys.net This email sent to jeremy.dero...@ingencys.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Good idea to send the request in WOLF (WebObject Liste Francophone). The list is not very active now and I'm almost the only contributor so Pascal, I'll be happy you send directly your request. About the survey, I've filled out the forms for Bebook then I tried to do the same for Sophiacom but I was not allowed. Because I'm smart enough (;-)), I removed the cookies then I filled out all the forms. Unfortunately, the last screen told me that I've already registered in a previous session. Miguel is very, very smart, too much for me. So I'm sorry to tell you that Sophiacom is missing. I didn't try to use another network and I jumped to my next task... Philippe On 20 oct. 09, at 23:41, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hey Pascal, -- I'd send your requests for people to fill them in to the webobjects-deploy webobjects-announce lists also .. perhaps the french mailing lists also. Not everyone subscribes to this one it seems. Naturally not everyone's a 'dev'. On 21/10/2009, at 6:01 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lachlan.deck%40gmail.com This email sent to lachlan.d...@gmail.com with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/prabier %40mac.com This email sent to prab...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Good idea to send the request in WOLF (WebObject Liste Francophone). The list is not very active now and I'm almost the only contributor so Pascal, I'll be happy you send directly your request. About the survey, I've filled out the forms for Bebook then I tried to do the same for Sophiacom but I was not allowed. Because I'm smart enough (;-)), I removed the cookies then I filled out all the forms. Unfortunately, the last screen told me that I've already registered in a previous session. Miguel is very, very smart, too much for me. So I'm sorry to tell you that Sophiacom is missing. I didn't try to use another network and I jumped to my next task... Miguel is smart enough to have a setting to prevent multiple responses :-) And I'm smart enough to disable this setting right now, so multiple responses coming from the same IP and cookies is now allowed. Philippe On 20 oct. 09, at 23:41, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hey Pascal, -- I'd send your requests for people to fill them in to the webobjects-deploy webobjects-announce lists also .. perhaps the french mailing lists also. Not everyone subscribes to this one it seems. Naturally not everyone's a 'dev'. On 21/10/2009, at 6:01 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lachlan.deck%40gmail.com This email sent to lachlan.d...@gmail.com with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/prabier %40mac.com This email sent to prab...@mac.com -- --- Pascal Robert http://www.macti.ca http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Skype: MacTICanada AIM/iChat : MacTICanada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: 2009 surveys results
Hey Pascal, -- I'd send your requests for people to fill them in to the webobjects-deploy webobjects-announce lists also .. perhaps the french mailing lists also. Not everyone subscribes to this one it seems. Naturally not everyone's a 'dev'. On 21/10/2009, at 6:01 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: Ok, so I bugged everyone for weeks and I don't expect any more answers (even if I know that at least 5 organizations didn't respond...), so I made a summary of all answers we have so far : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/doBf http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/x/E4Bf The surveys are still open, I will close them mid-November. https://www.survs.com/survey/T8TGXAW70R https://www.survs.com/survey/3O47WI4G11 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lachlan.deck%40gmail.com This email sent to lachlan.d...@gmail.com with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
