Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
Another PRO for postgresql: language for writing stored procedures. A PRO for Oracle: OLAP implementation. JPM ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 05/12/2009, at 6:29 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: > On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: > >> So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: >> >> FOR MySQL >> - Free > > So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro > >> - Easy to setup and configure > > Uh, it does not work correctly out of the box so I think this is a con Yeah - it means lots of reading so as to, um, fine-tune what should have been an out-of-the-box option. >> - Clustering engine >> - Easy reliable replication > > Those two are really the only Pros that I can see for it. Those are the only > things that would make me use it > >> AGAINST MySQL >> - Lack of deferred constraints >> - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As >> Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. > - need to carefully configure it to get it to work correct > > > -- > Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development > > Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall > knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. > http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects > > > > > > > > ___ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lachlan.deck%40gmail.com > > This email sent to lachlan.d...@gmail.com with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:07 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 4. Dec. 2009, at 17:46 , Mike Schrag wrote: That's what I'm referring ... I have not used it, only read about it enough to be intrigued by it. It requires your entire database to be loaded into memory, but memory is pretty damn cheap. If you have a truly HUGE database, this is not an option, but most of ours are not larger than the reasonable max amount of memory. Personally I have only fairly small databases - big tables being in the couple hundred thousand rows range. Professionally, it's a different thing. Big table in the couple billion rows tables. Yeah, I think a couple billion rows qualifies as "big" in general database terms. :-P Oracle's a weird cat ... On the one hand, it his this weird pile of ancient restrictions (31 char column name limits, etc). On the other hand, it's insanely fast. I don't have real scientific comparisons to back this up, but anecdotally, it's fast as hell. Yeah, it's really weird. When I used it, I found it pretty cumbersome. Which might have to do with the fact that with the license cost, normally a DBA comes within the box ... so they don't really care about making it usable for mere mortals. That was my big grumble against it, until they started revising the licensing terms. It can be seriously annoying to admin. It can pick up and MOVE when tuned correctly. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 4. Dec. 2009, at 18:23 , Kieran Kelleher wrote: >> Hmmm. Way back when we used it, it wasn't reliable. Every now and then >> slaves had to be completely rebuild. And it also wasn't straightforward as >> soon as something wasn't as expected. > > In 4.1 there was the occasional hiccup where you had to either (1) rebuild, > or (2) check the actual statement which usually was an insert duplicate, and > if that statement had already been executed, then just do a single statement > skip and off it went again. However, I have not had a single slave hiccup > since all the slaves were upgraded to 5.0.xx. I stopped using it before 5.x. But if I recall correctly, we had the issues with 4.1. > In any case, if you had a at least 2 slaves, then the easy solution *without* > doing a full dump of the master and reconfiguring was to stop a good working > slave, literally copy the data directory and replace the one on the bad > machine and start both up again. However, not a problem for me since 5.0.xx. > There was one setting needed to ensure you could do this though (IIRC the > slave name - used for replication log names - had to be the same or sth like > that, but this again was just a property setting in my.cnf) Right. Issue was - I was not very comfortable in MySQL and we had only one slave ... > Guido, I do appreciate your input here, especially since you have the > advantage of a unique perspective Na, not really. The times I worked with MySQL was when I was at a three person company back in good old Europe. Nevertheless, we did some whacky things back than that were real fun! ;-) Like trying to beat the hell out of a PG instance with raw copy import every 6 hours which hit the incredible speed of about 17k simple rows per second on my laptop (if I recall that correctly, I don't recall the numbers on the Xserve - I think we never really tested it, as the task always completed in under a minute, which was a bit better then the 15 minutes in the requirements) ... Take care, Guido ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 4. Dec. 2009, at 17:46 , Mike Schrag wrote: > That's what I'm referring ... I have not used it, only read about it enough > to be intrigued by it. It requires your entire database to be loaded into > memory, but memory is pretty damn cheap. If you have a truly HUGE database, > this is not an option, but most of ours are not larger than the reasonable > max amount of memory. Personally I have only fairly small databases - big tables being in the couple hundred thousand rows range. Professionally, it's a different thing. Big table in the couple billion rows tables. > Oracle's a weird cat ... On the one hand, it his this weird pile of ancient > restrictions (31 char column name limits, etc). On the other hand, it's > insanely fast. I don't have real scientific comparisons to back this up, but > anecdotally, it's fast as hell. Yeah, it's really weird. When I used it, I found it pretty cumbersome. Which might have to do with the fact that with the license cost, normally a DBA comes within the box ... so they don't really care about making it usable for mere mortals. cug -- http://www.event-s.net ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 6:27 PM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: Wow, did not realize full-featured FB was free - makes it worth looking at now Damn we are a cheap bunch!:-) It is has been free for a few years now. Definitely a contender. - however if Mike S started using MySQL, then switching is unlikely because MySQL integration will only get better! ;-) There is still that pesky deferred constraint issue. It won't affect all projects, but it will affect some. But as you are used to not having FK constraints anyway... ;-) Chuck On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: FOR MySQL - Free So is PG, FrontBase, and others -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 4. Dec. 2009, at 16:48 , Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: [Free] So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro MySQL Administrator is pretty nice to have. At least I don't have to shell out $150 on Navicat. Does postgres/frontbase/other have decent free tools? PGAdmin always did what I needed when I was on the GUI. Not as nice as Navicat, but working. But as I do 99% of my DB stuff on the commandline, I quite like psql. Definitely more than sql92 from FrontBase with it's weird display and somehow weird syntax for everything other than SQL. Now that is a pro in favor of PG. I dislike dependence on GUI tools for database servers where I usually want to ssh and tunnel into some remote database server and get stuff done and write utility shell scripts for admin and development. FrontBaseManager: okay. It's there. It kind of works for most things I needed. Anyway, I've found this discussion very enlightening. I think it is the first one where actual points were made apart form "but I like it better". Yeah, it just says something good about this great group of people. I guess WebObjects devs are practical and reasonable. If they were over- emotional, they wouldn't be using it because they would be afraid of it being EOL'd or sth like that! BTW, not only were actual points made, but we (Chuck) can make fun of each other (me) without getting insulted! ;-) Heck, the Google Wave app was made for discussions like this the indentation and content is making it harder to find new comments! . and the money thing. Of the other two, I'm probably going to lean toward Postgres, but I'm wondering... What will I do for admin tools? I'm not good at remembering cryptic command line options. PGAdmin. http://www.pgadmin.org/ Clearly, more study is needed (^_^) Oh, as for the Vertical inheritance... I was just testing/studying inheritance. I've read enough about what a waste of time VI is on this list. I know better than to actually want to use it myself. I've already seen it fail in MySQL and OpenBase, so I was more interested in why it was failing than actually attempting to use it. You might also want to do some perf testing for your needs. FrontBase can be a very nice option if you are not running in the situations where it's query optimizer is just not up to the task. Also with FrontBase you need to make sure to filter data appropriately, even when importing or using other tools than EOF - otherwise, garbage in, server down. I had that a couple times. Nevertheless, FrontBase is easy to install, easy to use with WO, is SQL92 compliant, has some nice features like the LookSee full text index, multi-master replication and so on. PostgreSQL is a bit more cumbersome to set up, but not really hard or so, is definitely more robust, has a very good query optimizer and an "explain analyze ..." that actually works and that gives useful information. I never found FrontBase particularly helpful in that department. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
Wow, did not realize full-featured FB was free - makes it worth looking at now - however if Mike S started using MySQL, then switching is unlikely because MySQL integration will only get better! ;-) On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: FOR MySQL - Free So is PG, FrontBase, and others ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 8:11 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 4. Dec. 2009, at 11:16 , Kieran Kelleher wrote: So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: FOR MySQL - Free - Easy to setup and configure - Clustering engine I have read a bit about this part as I'm always curious about synchronous multi-master clustering support in DBs. From Are people here referring to NDB Cluster? From reading the white papers I was kind of wondering how this could in any way be used in the typical (outside big corporations) requirements. Is somebody here actually using this? And I'm not talking about asynchronous replication, I'm talking about real multi-master cluster with guaranteed integrity. - Easy reliable replication Hmmm. Way back when we used it, it wasn't reliable. Every now and then slaves had to be completely rebuild. And it also wasn't straightforward as soon as something wasn't as expected. In 4.1 there was the occasional hiccup where you had to either (1) rebuild, or (2) check the actual statement which usually was an insert duplicate, and if that statement had already been executed, then just do a single statement skip and off it went again. However, I have not had a single slave hiccup since all the slaves were upgraded to 5.0.xx. In any case, if you had a at least 2 slaves, then the easy solution *without* doing a full dump of the master and reconfiguring was to stop a good working slave, literally copy the data directory and replace the one on the bad machine and start both up again. However, not a problem for me since 5.0.xx. There was one setting needed to ensure you could do this though (IIRC the slave name - used for replication log names - had to be the same or sth like that, but this again was just a property setting in my.cnf) Guido, I do appreciate your input here, especially since you have the advantage of a unique perspective AGAINST MySQL - Lack of deferred constraints - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. All toys ... :-P Take care, Guido ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
Hey! On 2009/12/05, at 01:46, Mike Schrag wrote: And I'm not talking about asynchronous replication, I'm talking about real multi-master cluster with guaranteed integrity. That's what I'm referring ... I have not used it, only read about it enough to be intrigued by it. It requires your entire database to be loaded into memory, but memory is pretty damn cheap. If you have a truly HUGE database, this is not an option, but most of ours are not larger than the reasonable max amount of memory. Err... unless you have a monster machine with hundreds of GBs, why would you want to cluster a small DB? I don't see any scenario where I need to load balance a DB with half a dozen of GBs. If that's the MySQL way, I would say the PgSQL is probably best! ;) Yours Miguel Arroz smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
>> So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: >> >> FOR MySQL >> - Free >> - Easy to setup and configure >> - Clustering engine > > I have read a bit about this part as I'm always curious about synchronous > multi-master clustering support in DBs. From Are people here referring to NDB > Cluster? From reading the white papers I was kind of wondering how this could > in any way be used in the typical (outside big corporations) requirements. Is > somebody here actually using this? > > And I'm not talking about asynchronous replication, I'm talking about real > multi-master cluster with guaranteed integrity. That's what I'm referring ... I have not used it, only read about it enough to be intrigued by it. It requires your entire database to be loaded into memory, but memory is pretty damn cheap. If you have a truly HUGE database, this is not an option, but most of ours are not larger than the reasonable max amount of memory. >> AGAINST MySQL >> - Lack of deferred constraints >> - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As >> Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. > All toys ... :-P Oracle's a weird cat ... On the one hand, it his this weird pile of ancient restrictions (31 char column name limits, etc). On the other hand, it's insanely fast. I don't have real scientific comparisons to back this up, but anecdotally, it's fast as hell. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: On 4. Dec. 2009, at 16:48 , Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: [Free] So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro MySQL Administrator is pretty nice to have. At least I don't have to shell out $150 on Navicat. Does postgres/frontbase/other have decent free tools? PGAdmin always did what I needed when I was on the GUI. Not as nice as Navicat, but working. But as I do 99% of my DB stuff on the commandline, I quite like psql. Definitely more than sql92 from FrontBase with it's weird display and somehow weird syntax for everything other than SQL. FrontBaseManager: okay. It's there. It kind of works for most things I needed. It has always done what I needed it to... which is not all that much. Anyway, I've found this discussion very enlightening. I think it is the first one where actual points were made apart form "but I like it better". . and the money thing. Of the other two, I'm probably going to lean toward Postgres, but I'm wondering... What will I do for admin tools? I'm not good at remembering cryptic command line options. PGAdmin. http://www.pgadmin.org/ Clearly, more study is needed (^_^) Oh, as for the Vertical inheritance... I was just testing/studying inheritance. I've read enough about what a waste of time VI is on this list. I know better than to actually want to use it myself. I've already seen it fail in MySQL and OpenBase, so I was more interested in why it was failing than actually attempting to use it. You might also want to do some perf testing for your needs. FrontBase can be a very nice option if you are not running in the situations where it's query optimizer is just not up to the task. Or, more accurately, makes perverse optimization choices. Version 4.9 has fixed the ones that I kept hitting, but it does still make odd decisions sometimes. Also with FrontBase you need to make sure to filter data appropriately, even when importing or using other tools than EOF - otherwise, garbage in, server down. I had that a couple times. Yes! Nevertheless, FrontBase is easy to install, easy to use with WO, is SQL92 compliant, has some nice features like the LookSee full text index, multi-master replication and so on. And it can be very fast for large datasets, odd query optimization non- withstanding. PostgreSQL is a bit more cumbersome to set up, but not really hard or so, is definitely more robust, has a very good query optimizer and an "explain analyze ..." that actually works and that gives useful information. I never found FrontBase particularly helpful in that department. I've been using FB for at least 10 years now and I can confidently state that I have NO idea what the FB query plan information means. I can tell when it has given up optimization hope and is using brute force, but that is about it. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 4. Dec. 2009, at 17:20 , Chuck Hill wrote: > On Dec 4, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: >>> >>> AGAINST MySQL >>> - Lack of deferred constraints >>> - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As >>> Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. >> >> All toys ... :-P > > > Now, now Guido. Oracle is not a toy. It is a bloated, overpriced, creaky > piece of antique 1970's technology. Hmmm. Fisher Price? Na, I know that Oracle is the enterprise' choice for DB tool - most of the time. And it also does seem to do this quite well. If you were actually allowed to post perf comparisons, we would even know how it performs for standard setups ... cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 4. Dec. 2009, at 16:48 , Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: [Free] >> So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro > > > MySQL Administrator is pretty nice to have. At least I don't have to shell > out $150 on Navicat. Does postgres/frontbase/other have decent free tools? PGAdmin always did what I needed when I was on the GUI. Not as nice as Navicat, but working. But as I do 99% of my DB stuff on the commandline, I quite like psql. Definitely more than sql92 from FrontBase with it's weird display and somehow weird syntax for everything other than SQL. FrontBaseManager: okay. It's there. It kind of works for most things I needed. > Anyway, I've found this discussion very enlightening. I think it is the first one where actual points were made apart form "but I like it better". > . and the money thing. Of the other two, I'm probably going to lean toward > Postgres, but I'm wondering... What will I do for admin tools? I'm not good > at remembering cryptic command line options. PGAdmin. http://www.pgadmin.org/ > Clearly, more study is needed (^_^) Oh, as for the Vertical inheritance... I > was just testing/studying inheritance. I've read enough about what a waste > of time VI is on this list. I know better than to actually want to use it > myself. I've already seen it fail in MySQL and OpenBase, so I was more > interested in why it was failing than actually attempting to use it. You might also want to do some perf testing for your needs. FrontBase can be a very nice option if you are not running in the situations where it's query optimizer is just not up to the task. Also with FrontBase you need to make sure to filter data appropriately, even when importing or using other tools than EOF - otherwise, garbage in, server down. I had that a couple times. Nevertheless, FrontBase is easy to install, easy to use with WO, is SQL92 compliant, has some nice features like the LookSee full text index, multi-master replication and so on. PostgreSQL is a bit more cumbersome to set up, but not really hard or so, is definitely more robust, has a very good query optimizer and an "explain analyze ..." that actually works and that gives useful information. I never found FrontBase particularly helpful in that department. cug ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote: AGAINST MySQL - Lack of deferred constraints - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. All toys ... :-P Now, now Guido. Oracle is not a toy. It is a bloated, overpriced, creaky piece of antique 1970's technology. :-) Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 4:48 PM, Ramsey Lee Gurley wrote: On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: FOR MySQL - Free So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro MySQL Administrator is pretty nice to have. At least I don't have to shell out $150 on Navicat. Does postgres/frontbase/other have decent free tools? Uh, of course? :-) They are bundled with FB. PG has http://www.pgadmin.org/ - Easy to setup and configure Uh, it does not work correctly out of the box so I think this is a con - Clustering engine - Easy reliable replication Those two are really the only Pros that I can see for it. Those are the only things that would make me use it AGAINST MySQL - Lack of deferred constraints - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. - need to carefully configure it to get it to work correct Can it, even with careful setup, work correctly? Consider a circular reference like Nation - City. Every city has to have a nation, every nation has to have a capital city. With FK constraints on, it will be impossible to create a city and a nation. Correct? Yes, fully circular references are simply not possible without deferred constraints (or, well, no constraints if you go that way). Lack of deferred constraints creates an issue with EOF due to its non- deterministic ordering of operations. If FKs are off, I have to rely on EOF, and if Nation ->> City is huge (Which it probably would be) I don't want to map that. It will have a catastrophic performance impact when addToBothSides is called. But without mapping the to-many, I can delete the Nation and orphan all the cities. So it really sounds like a no win situation without deferred constraints. Yes, if you have circular relationships you are pretty well screwed coming and / or going. Anyway, I've found this discussion very enlightening. I'll probably be looking into database options this weekend (^_^) Looking at the Wonder plugin list, I see Derby, Postgres, Frontbase, and Oracle. I really like the idea of Derby. Embeddable, plus it's just java, and I especially like that after reading about Derby's CREATE FUNCTION ability. It sounds pretty sweet, but the only info I can find regarding Derby and deferred FKs is negative. I guess I just need to checkout the Derby framework and find out. I am pretty sure that Derby was added as an "this is an easy option for demo apps" rather than a "this is a good option for production applications". This is one that I have wanted to look at for a while: http://www.firebirdsql.org/ http://www.ibphoenix.com/ It is an offshoot/descendant of Interbase, which I used back in my Delphi days. It might still be a bit Windows-centric. Postgres, Frontbase, and Oracle can all do deferred FKs, but it sounds like Oracle is not so desirable due to the migrations thing.. and the money thing. The money thing is usually the first roadblock. You need deep pockets to get around that! Of the other two, I'm probably going to lean toward Postgres, but I'm wondering... What will I do for admin tools? I'm not good at remembering cryptic command line options. IME, FB is easier to admin than PG. I'd not choose a database based on easy of admin only, that is just a nice to have. Speed, stability, SQL92 (at least) compliance, replication, and clustering are all more important than a whizzy GUI admin tool. Clearly, more study is needed (^_^) Oh, as for the Vertical inheritance... I was just testing/studying inheritance. I've read enough about what a waste of time VI is on this list. I know better than to actually want to use it myself. I've already seen it fail in MySQL and OpenBase, so I was more interested in why it was failing than actually attempting to use it. Say three Hail Marys and you are forgiven my son. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On 4. Dec. 2009, at 11:16 , Kieran Kelleher wrote: > So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: > > FOR MySQL > - Free > - Easy to setup and configure > - Clustering engine I have read a bit about this part as I'm always curious about synchronous multi-master clustering support in DBs. From Are people here referring to NDB Cluster? From reading the white papers I was kind of wondering how this could in any way be used in the typical (outside big corporations) requirements. Is somebody here actually using this? And I'm not talking about asynchronous replication, I'm talking about real multi-master cluster with guaranteed integrity. > - Easy reliable replication Hmmm. Way back when we used it, it wasn't reliable. Every now and then slaves had to be completely rebuild. And it also wasn't straightforward as soon as something wasn't as expected. > > AGAINST MySQL > - Lack of deferred constraints > - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As > Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. All toys ... :-P Take care, Guido ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: > >> So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: >> >> FOR MySQL >> - Free > > So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro MySQL Administrator is pretty nice to have. At least I don't have to shell out $150 on Navicat. Does postgres/frontbase/other have decent free tools? >> - Easy to setup and configure > > Uh, it does not work correctly out of the box so I think this is a con > > >> - Clustering engine >> - Easy reliable replication > > Those two are really the only Pros that I can see for it. Those are the only > things that would make me use it > > > >> AGAINST MySQL >> - Lack of deferred constraints >> - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As >> Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. > - need to carefully configure it to get it to work correct Can it, even with careful setup, work correctly? Consider a circular reference like Nation - City. Every city has to have a nation, every nation has to have a capital city. With FK constraints on, it will be impossible to create a city and a nation. Correct? If FKs are off, I have to rely on EOF, and if Nation ->> City is huge (Which it probably would be) I don't want to map that. It will have a catastrophic performance impact when addToBothSides is called. But without mapping the to-many, I can delete the Nation and orphan all the cities. So it really sounds like a no win situation without deferred constraints. Anyway, I've found this discussion very enlightening. I'll probably be looking into database options this weekend (^_^) Looking at the Wonder plugin list, I see Derby, Postgres, Frontbase, and Oracle. I really like the idea of Derby. Embeddable, plus it's just java, and I especially like that after reading about Derby's CREATE FUNCTION ability. It sounds pretty sweet, but the only info I can find regarding Derby and deferred FKs is negative. I guess I just need to checkout the Derby framework and find out. Postgres, Frontbase, and Oracle can all do deferred FKs, but it sounds like Oracle is not so desirable due to the migrations thing.. and the money thing. Of the other two, I'm probably going to lean toward Postgres, but I'm wondering... What will I do for admin tools? I'm not good at remembering cryptic command line options. Clearly, more study is needed (^_^) Oh, as for the Vertical inheritance... I was just testing/studying inheritance. I've read enough about what a waste of time VI is on this list. I know better than to actually want to use it myself. I've already seen it fail in MySQL and OpenBase, so I was more interested in why it was failing than actually attempting to use it. Ramsey > > -- > Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development > > Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall > knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. > http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: MySQL [was: Re: Dr. Miguel 'Optimistic Locking' Arroz [was Re: WebObjects stress Testing tool?]]
On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Kieran Kelleher wrote: So, to sum up the pros and cons we heard in the discussion: FOR MySQL - Free So is PG, FrontBase, and others so no a major Pro - Easy to setup and configure Uh, it does not work correctly out of the box so I think this is a con - Clustering engine - Easy reliable replication Those two are really the only Pros that I can see for it. Those are the only things that would make me use it AGAINST MySQL - Lack of deferred constraints - Lack of transactional DDL (roll back failing migrations for example). As Mike pointed out, neither does Oracle, so not alone there. - need to carefully configure it to get it to work correct -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
