Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Skyring]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 10:52 AM, K. Peachey  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Carcharoth  
> wrote:
>> To be fair, the date preferences-as-wikilinks situation *had* led to
>> overlinking. I'm fairly liberal in terms of linking and tend to
>> overlink from the view of many people, but even I see that many of the
>> date links were pointless. The trouble is, not all were pointless and
>> people argued over the details while the bots mostly ignored
>> restrictions and stripped date links regardless of objections.
>> Sometimes, in the most ridiculous cases, the bot operator talked to
>> the objectors, the links were restored with promises that the bot
>> would be changed, and then the next bot run removed the links again!
>> That's just inept.
> Which is why i recommended/suggested a special character for dates, so
> you can allow autoformatting but not the automatic linking (although i
> guess you could have a option in your preferences for the people that
> liked it). Using a special character could have other uses as well i
> guess like automatic metadata attached to the article or something
> along those lines.

But for what purpose? So a few people see dates the way they want to?
ANY special formatting just makes the project one notch more
inaccessible for new editors. If someone walks in off the webstreet
after hitting the "edit" button and sees a whole bunch of brackets and
functions, templates and funny characters, they are likely to turn
around and walk back out again. Some articles already look more like a
complicated computer program than a piece of prose. We might as well
call the whole thing geekopedia.

Sure, maybe we could find some whizzo technosolution. In a
programmer's mind, elegance is DATE(20081225). Some of the suggested
formulae above are, to say the least, inelegant. But the most elegant,
simple solution is to leave the dates as they are. So what if some
newbie off the interlane puts 25th December '08 into an article?
Nobody is confused. Eventually a wikignome will happen along and fix
it up.

-- 
Peter in Canberra

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[K. Peachey]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> To be fair, the date preferences-as-wikilinks situation *had* led to
> overlinking. I'm fairly liberal in terms of linking and tend to
> overlink from the view of many people, but even I see that many of the
> date links were pointless. The trouble is, not all were pointless and
> people argued over the details while the bots mostly ignored
> restrictions and stripped date links regardless of objections.
> Sometimes, in the most ridiculous cases, the bot operator talked to
> the objectors, the links were restored with promises that the bot
> would be changed, and then the next bot run removed the links again!
> That's just inept.
Which is why i recommended/suggested a special character for dates, so
you can allow autoformatting but not the automatic linking (although i
guess you could have a option in your preferences for the people that
liked it). Using a special character could have other uses as well i
guess like automatic metadata attached to the article or something
along those lines.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

David Gerard wrote:
>> 2009/2/9 Phil Nash :
>>
>>> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to
>>> why people care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as
>>> an unconstructive intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term
>>> cultural significance,
>>
>>
>> I have a fake news blog for that sort of thing. I find it works well
>> if you combine Celebrity Big Brother with assisted suicide. Either
>> they like it or they look at you funny and go away, either of these
>> counts as a win.

Assisted suicide would be helpful. I put in a repeat prescription request a 
week ago for Fluoxetine, Zopiclone, Ativan and Nembutal, but haven't heard 
anything back yet. You do wonder what the NHS is actually for. Not helping, 
obviously.





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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

Sam Blacketer wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Phil Nash
>> wrote: 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to
>>> why people care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as
>>> an unconstructive intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term
>>> cultural significance, but
>>> then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval
>>> Wiltshire monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who
>>> would, er, pay me money
>>> for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to
>>> afford cheese. And meat.
>>> 
>> 
>> There is the Institute of Historical Review, and has the VCH of
>> Wiltshire been completed yet?

Just point me at them, and I'll happily root through their archives.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Phil Nash :

> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people
> care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive
> intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance,


I have a fake news blog for that sort of thing. I find it works well
if you combine Celebrity Big Brother with assisted suicide. Either
they like it or they look at you funny and go away, either of these
counts as a win.

This may be getting off-topic ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Sam Blacketer]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Phil Nash wrote:

>
> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people
> care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive
> intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance,
> but
> then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval Wiltshire
> monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who would, er, pay me
> money
> for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to afford
> cheese. And meat.
>

There is the Institute of Historical Review, and has the VCH of Wiltshire
been completed yet?

-- 
Sam Blacketer
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

David Gerard wrote:
>> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>>
>>> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are
>>> great) are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia
>>> building, but I think are a legitimate side operation, especially
>>> when article do (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also
>>> legitimate because some people prefer to ask humans a question and
>>> have them look it up, rather than look things up themselves. The
>>> side effect is quite a lot of chatter around the questions and
>>> answers.
>>
>>
>> It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
>> to show off our erudition.
>>
>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

I tend to agree; there are occasions where two editors can engage 
constructively in an academic discourse which would probably not attract 
much interest on an article's talk page. Far better that they sort it out 
between themselves, and if that happens to be on-Wiki, dissenting editors 
can be directed to such a subpage for further discussion; with the proviso 
that such discussions be flagged on article talk pages, if they are of 
sufficient moment, and potential contributors be made aware that those 
discussions are ongoing.

Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people 
care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive 
intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance, but 
then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval Wiltshire 
monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who would, er, pay me money 
for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to afford 
cheese. And meat.

Regards



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:19 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>
>>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)
>
>> The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)
>
> A non-Wikipedian! *hrmph*

Oops! Should have picked up on that. Sorry. Were you one of the three
military historians then? I must admit that when I helped out with the
FAR for James I of England (and VI of Scotland), I did bore people for
months afterwards with potted stories about James's life. So I
recognise what you are talking about here.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Carcharoth :

>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

> The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)


A non-Wikipedian! *hrmph*


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:12 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>
>> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
>> are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
>> think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
>> (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
>> some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
>> rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
>> of chatter around the questions and answers.
>
>
> It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
> to show off our erudition.
>
> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Carcharoth :

> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
> are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
> think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
> (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
> some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
> rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
> of chatter around the questions and answers.


It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
to show off our erudition.

(e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

 
In a message dated 2/9/2009 3:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
carcharot...@googlemail.com writes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Debeo_Morium/Chats

Please  don't run off and do something based on reading this. That
would be a bit  unfair. But is that a good example of the sort of thing
Charles was talking  about or not? Is that "community" or "blogging" or
"chatting" or  "encyclopedia building"?>>



-
These "chat" links don't have any content however.  To me it seems  just like 
a person had their hand slapped for "chatting" in some article, and so  
decided to explore a new avenue for article building.  I don't find this  sort 
of 
thing to interfere with my own use or editing of the project.  In  fact it 
seems commendable that someone would have the creativity to think of  something 
like this (even though it didn't go anywhere).
 
We should encourage the use of the project in new ways that are  
*potentially* helpful, even if no one else has thought of them before.  We  
don't want to 
become static.  The project should give free rein to new  ideas, let them play 
out, and see where they lead and *then* rein in ideas that  are abusive.
 
One-offs, partials, dead links... aren't abusive.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

Personally I don't think we have enough commentary on the actions of  others. 
 Some people using their tools blithely go through the project  leaving 
wreckage in their paths believing that they will never be subject to  scrutiny, 
simply because those they tred upon, don't know enough or have the  ability to 
contruct a long involved analysis.
 
Having bits and pieces of past conflicts in the userspace helps injured  
parties collect data about these rogues, so that a full commentary can be  
contructed and also so that groups can be formed to co-ordinate a  campaign.
 
I don't have a problem with allowing this sort of thing to exist.  If  a 
person finds themselves often the target of this sort of approach then maybe  
the 
problem in with them, and not with those who take the time to create this  
evidence in userspace.
 
Anything which helps identify abuse or suspected abuse in the project is to  
our credit, not detriment.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Charles Matthews
 wrote:
> George Herbert wrote:
>> What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on
>> en.wp now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a
>> pattern requiring action. 
> Well, I don't want to get into names. I recommend looking at subpage
> usage (easy for a given user now, link at the bottom of contributions)
> to get an idea of how userspace is applied.  My past concerns range from
> "record keeping", i.e. making a point of logging things on the site as
> they happen so that anyone checking your recent contributions will see
> you've noticed), to "evidence gathering" when there is no dispute
> resolution in sight, to "essay writing" that is not really designed to
> produce an essay or position paper, but to allow commentary on the
> behaviour of others. These share the properties of being insidious
> (quite close to apparently legitimate usage) but also deleterious to the
> community.

Clicking on "random" for user pages is also quite, um, instructive.
Just remember to make a note of the user pages you see that really set
red flags off, or set you laughing, YMMV. Once you click away using
Special:Random, and you shut the browser and lose the history, you may
never remember where that page was!

As Charles says, though, most of the borderline stuff is in user
subpages. Not sure if those show up in random clicks. I suspect they
don't, as otherwise special:random would bring up archives all the
time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random/user

On the other hand, my first click led me to a subpage. 

But then again, it took me only five or so clicks to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Debeo_Morium/Chats

Please don't run off and do something based on reading this. That
would be a bit unfair. But is that a good example of the sort of thing
Charles was talking about or not? Is that "community" or "blogging" or
"chatting" or "encyclopedia building"?

To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
(sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
of chatter around the questions and answers.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on 
> en.wp now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a 
> pattern requiring action. 
Well, I don't want to get into names. I recommend looking at subpage 
usage (easy for a given user now, link at the bottom of contributions) 
to get an idea of how userspace is applied.  My past concerns range from 
"record keeping", i.e. making a point of logging things on the site as 
they happen so that anyone checking your recent contributions will see 
you've noticed), to "evidence gathering" when there is no dispute 
resolution in sight, to "essay writing" that is not really designed to 
produce an essay or position paper, but to allow commentary on the 
behaviour of others. These share the properties of being insidious 
(quite close to apparently legitimate usage) but also deleterious to the 
community. 

Charles



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not
> > anyone's felt need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and
> > is being read that way by several of us...) much further.  I don't
> > think there's support or a consensus for much further.  Wikipedia
> > isn't a blog, social networking site, or user homepage - but it is a
> > community, and a working environment (volunteer as it is), and as
> > David points out, people like to decorate their cubes (in whatever
> > form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not something to
> > be arbitrarily squashed.
> Well then, please read in the on-topic fashion - if done in such a way
> as to "lower the tone", I recall, userpages are not really welcome to
> contain just anything. But the misreading of userspace=user page here is
> vexing.  The problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on
> dedicated user pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on
> their rights to do that.
>

Ok.  I am not trying to be needlessly confrontational here, your earlier
comments seemed to imply something else.

What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on en.wp
now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a pattern
requiring action.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

In a message dated 2/9/2009 12:31:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com writes:

The  problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on 
dedicated user  pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on 
their rights to do  that.>>
--
Example?  Let's have a few concrete examples so we know more clearly  what 
you are and aren't saying.
 
Will
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not 
> anyone's felt need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and 
> is being read that way by several of us...) much further.  I don't 
> think there's support or a consensus for much further.  Wikipedia 
> isn't a blog, social networking site, or user homepage - but it is a 
> community, and a working environment (volunteer as it is), and as 
> David points out, people like to decorate their cubes (in whatever 
> form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not something to 
> be arbitrarily squashed.
Well then, please read in the on-topic fashion - if done in such a way 
as to "lower the tone", I recall, userpages are not really welcome to 
contain just anything. But the misreading of userspace=user page here is 
vexing.  The problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on 
dedicated user pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on 
their rights to do that.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 The Cunctator :

> Mandated regulations for forcing politeness generally don't work well. If
> you don't trust people to have common sense, they won't exercise it.


I don't either. However, it was interesting to note KPBotany's claims
in the WT:ACN thread that en:wp is notably worse than other Wikipedias
in this regard.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[The Cunctator]

Mandated regulations for forcing politeness generally don't work well. If
you don't trust people to have common sense, they won't exercise it.

But I know I'm in the minority here, so have fun.

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 2009/2/9  :
> >>
> >>
> >>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> >>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my
> believe
> >>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> >>>
> >> "consensus"
> >>
> >>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
> >>>
> >> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> > activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They
> are
> > not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> > principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty
> of
> > opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of
> any
> > personalization.
> >
> > The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
> >
> >
> With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude
> abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across
> that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 2009/2/9  :
> >>
> >>
> >>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> >>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my
> believe
> >>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> >>>
> >> "consensus"
> >>
> >>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
> >>>
> >> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> > activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They
> are
> > not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> > principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty
> of
> > opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of
> any
> > personalization.
> >
> > The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
> >
> >
> With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude
> abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across
> that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.


There is no disagreement (among admins / experienced users) that people
using Wikipedia as a social networking site are violating the point of the
project and site, and when identified they're asked to stop and eventually
blocked.  That's not controversial.

Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not anyone's felt
need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and is being read that
way by several of us...) much further.  I don't think there's support or a
consensus for much further.  Wikipedia isn't a blog, social networking site,
or user homepage - but it is a community, and a working environment
(volunteer as it is), and as David points out, people like to decorate their
cubes (in whatever form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not
something to be arbitrarily squashed.

Your other comment ( "(b) although this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat
around elections, the pages are also not for battling and campaigning for
personal attitudes and beefs" ) is reasonable but somewhat harder to pull
off than asking for civility in the main project spaces.  We already enforce
NPA and CIVIL to some degree in the userspace, but making that an overriding
priority would likely raise more objections and resistance than is useful.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
>
>   
>> 2009/2/9  :
>>
>> 
>>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
>>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe
>>>   
>> that
>> 
>>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
>>>   
>> "consensus"
>> 
>>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
>>>   
>> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
>>
>> 
>
>
> At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They are
> not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty of
> opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of any
> personalization.
>
> The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
>
>   
With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude 
abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across 
that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.

Charles



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Magnus Manske :

> Not for a while (although IE8 might surprise us).
> However, I expect that anyone who really cares about his his/her date
> writing on wikipedia would use Firefox anyway :-)


Out of curiosity: is there a breakdown of accesses per user agent?
Edits per user agent?


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> 2009/2/9  :
>
> > Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> > themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe
> that
> > those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> "consensus"
> > that it should be viewed as just fine.
>
>
> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
>


At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They are
not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty of
opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of any
personalization.

The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9  :

> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe that
> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the 
> "consensus"
> that it should be viewed as just fine.


I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

< Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
>  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
>  More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion,  etc.
>   
I would go broader, for a cleanup of userspace,  now widely used for 
blogging and personal attacks. Basically we want to  get back to the 
point where it is understood that (a) Wikipedia pages  relate to the 
mission, not anyone's felt need for self-expression, and (b)  although 
this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat around elections, the  pages are 
also not for battling and campaigning for personal attitudes and  beefs. 

In short, as far as I'm concerned, the yelling and personalia  can all go 
offwiki, even if there needs to be a special site set up for  that. 
People, we are a serious organisation, with something as technical  as FR 
getting broad coverage (another column in today's London  Independent). 

Charles>>
-
I disagree with equating "blogging and personal attacks" with  
"self-expression".
 
Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about  
themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe that  
those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the 
"consensus"  
that it should be viewed as just fine.
 
Will Johnson



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Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Magnus Manske]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Charlotte Webb
 wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Magnus Manske
>  wrote:
>> As a technical note, CSS3 promises to have nifty features, such as
>> adding text based on class. It might be that we can then realize
>> indivudualized dates via CSS rather than JavaScript.
>
> And how soon do you expect Internet Explorer to support that? For what
> it's worth, our accessibility watchdogs already ask us not to use
> certain js/css features that later versions of IE *do* support, on the
> basis that there are too many IE users who don't use later versions of
> it.

Not for a while (although IE8 might surprise us).
However, I expect that anyone who really cares about his his/her date
writing on wikipedia would use Firefox anyway :-)

Magnus

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Charlotte Webb]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Magnus Manske
 wrote:
> As a technical note, CSS3 promises to have nifty features, such as
> adding text based on class. It might be that we can then realize
> indivudualized dates via CSS rather than JavaScript.

And how soon do you expect Internet Explorer to support that? For what
it's worth, our accessibility watchdogs already ask us not to use
certain js/css features that later versions of IE *do* support, on the
basis that there are too many IE users who don't use later versions of
it.

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Magnus Manske]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Charlotte Webb
 wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Carcharoth  
> wrote:
>>> Better would have been fixing it to work better.  Not leaving links in
>>> the HTML.  Sensible defaults for non-logged-in users; most modern
>>> browsers send information on the user's language preference, including
>>> UK versus US; how much such preferences are accurately set I'm not
>>> sure, but it's there.
>>
>> Agreed. Trouble is, there was foot-dragging going on and no-one really
>> working on it. Then, when date-delinking started and some people
>> started working (or resuming work) on a technical solution, there was
>> too much momentum and the speed of the bot operations almost certainly
>> discouraged those who had been working on technical solutions. Lots of
>> bad-faith assumptions and foot-dragging and forcing "solutions"
>> through.
>
> Once or twice upon a time I suggested adding some kind of non-link
> links table, so that one can enjoy a functionality similar to
> whatlinkshere without linking the date (in cases where no link was
> desired), for data analysis purposes such as dynamically generated
> timelines (future toolserver project perhaps) and greater ease in
> populating and maintaining year/month/day articles. Needless to say
> nobody knew or cared what I was on about.

As a technical note, CSS3 promises to have nifty features, such as
adding text based on class. It might be that we can then realize
indivudualized dates via CSS rather than JavaScript.

Magnus

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Charlotte Webb]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Carcharoth  wrote:
>> Better would have been fixing it to work better.  Not leaving links in
>> the HTML.  Sensible defaults for non-logged-in users; most modern
>> browsers send information on the user's language preference, including
>> UK versus US; how much such preferences are accurately set I'm not
>> sure, but it's there.
>
> Agreed. Trouble is, there was foot-dragging going on and no-one really
> working on it. Then, when date-delinking started and some people
> started working (or resuming work) on a technical solution, there was
> too much momentum and the speed of the bot operations almost certainly
> discouraged those who had been working on technical solutions. Lots of
> bad-faith assumptions and foot-dragging and forcing "solutions"
> through.

Once or twice upon a time I suggested adding some kind of non-link
links table, so that one can enjoy a functionality similar to
whatlinkshere without linking the date (in cases where no link was
desired), for data analysis purposes such as dynamically generated
timelines (future toolserver project perhaps) and greater ease in
populating and maintaining year/month/day articles. Needless to say
nobody knew or cared what I was on about.

—C.W.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Matthew Brown  wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Skyring  wrote:
>> So. Are we an international project, paying appropriate attention to
>> internationalising our product, or are we a battleground of cultural
>> imperialism?
>
> We're a battleground of cultural imperialism, of course … even if we
> shouldn't be.
>
> It does bother me, though, that one of the few, if imperfect, ways we
> had of presenting information in the way the reader preferred - I
> refer of course to our date formatting preferences - is being neutered
> because the implementation was poor, rather than improved.
>
> The problems with it were twofold; firstly, that for un-logged-in
> users, it displayed a mishmash of styles that often ended up the worst
> possible solution, and secondly that it required wikilinks, which
> offended people who have an aversion to excess links in articles.
>
> I have a strong feeling that it was actually the second reason that
> was the real driving force behind the delinking; I felt a sense of
> glee from partisans when they discovered that date preferences only
> worked for logged-in users and thus most of the readership didn't get
> pretty dates.  It gave them a nice big club to use in debate to get
> what they wanted, which was prettier articles from their point of
> view.

To be fair, the date preferences-as-wikilinks situation *had* led to
overlinking. I'm fairly liberal in terms of linking and tend to
overlink from the view of many people, but even I see that many of the
date links were pointless. The trouble is, not all were pointless and
people argued over the details while the bots mostly ignored
restrictions and stripped date links regardless of objections.
Sometimes, in the most ridiculous cases, the bot operator talked to
the objectors, the links were restored with promises that the bot
would be changed, and then the next bot run removed the links again!
That's just inept.

> Better would have been fixing it to work better.  Not leaving links in
> the HTML.  Sensible defaults for non-logged-in users; most modern
> browsers send information on the user's language preference, including
> UK versus US; how much such preferences are accurately set I'm not
> sure, but it's there.

Agreed. Trouble is, there was foot-dragging going on and no-one really
working on it. Then, when date-delinking started and some people
started working (or resuming work) on a technical solution, there was
too much momentum and the speed of the bot operations almost certainly
discouraged those who had been working on technical solutions. Lots of
bad-faith assumptions and foot-dragging and forcing "solutions"
through.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Matthew Brown]

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Skyring  wrote:
> So. Are we an international project, paying appropriate attention to
> internationalising our product, or are we a battleground of cultural
> imperialism?

We're a battleground of cultural imperialism, of course … even if we
shouldn't be.

It does bother me, though, that one of the few, if imperfect, ways we
had of presenting information in the way the reader preferred - I
refer of course to our date formatting preferences - is being neutered
because the implementation was poor, rather than improved.

The problems with it were twofold; firstly, that for un-logged-in
users, it displayed a mishmash of styles that often ended up the worst
possible solution, and secondly that it required wikilinks, which
offended people who have an aversion to excess links in articles.

I have a strong feeling that it was actually the second reason that
was the real driving force behind the delinking; I felt a sense of
glee from partisans when they discovered that date preferences only
worked for logged-in users and thus most of the readership didn't get
pretty dates.  It gave them a nice big club to use in debate to get
what they wanted, which was prettier articles from their point of
view.

Better would have been fixing it to work better.  Not leaving links in
the HTML.  Sensible defaults for non-logged-in users; most modern
browsers send information on the user's language preference, including
UK versus US; how much such preferences are accurately set I'm not
sure, but it's there.

-Matt

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Flagged revisions in The Sunday Times

[Jay Litwyn]

"phoebe ayers"  wrote in message 
news:3034369e0902082132o1bfcc009p9322915203d2a...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Nathan  wrote:
>> Article is dated today, and refers to a proposal Jimmy will be making
>> tomorrow. Any idea on what this proposal will be?
>>
>> Nathan
>
> Well, he got wrong whether or not he had an article, the Encyclopedia
> Britannica-Wikipedia study conclusions, how Wikipedia governance works
> ("as a reward... they now have a say") and the number of people
> employed by the Foundation, so I won't be shocked if "the
> announcement" about something that's in fact been discussed for years
> isn't forthcoming tomorrow.
>
> I say we keep spreading the rumor that we own the Caribbean, and see
> if any reporters believe it.
> -- phoebe

Jee girl. Nobody own da Carribean but da yellow bird.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia, the overly standarised Encyclopedia you wouldn't dare edit

[Matthew Brown]

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 7:09 PM, K. Peachey  wrote:
>> My preference is to use U.S. formats, measurements, currency for U.S.
>> articles, and take it from there: use the forms appropriate to the
>> subject. If there's no obvious default, then leave it alone, following
>> the BC/BCE wars that spawned the Arbcoms's Jguk decision.
> ARBCOM hasn't made a decision yet afaik, they only placed a halt on
> automated changing the date formating articles (eg: via bots and
> scripts).

Skyring was referring to the previous decision about changing BC to
BCE in articles.

-Matt

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Flagged revisions in The Sunday Times

[Jay Litwyn]

Not that I am following whatever this diverged into, while you do hav the 
power to cancel an article, it is troublesome to solicit actions from others 
who hav quoted you.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Flagged revisions in The Sunday Times

[Jay Litwyn]

"David Gerard"  wrote in message 
news:fbad4e140902081329l25758343t283c21887b5b6...@mail.gmail.com...
> 2009/2/8  :
>
>> I'm sick and tired of this back office wheeling and dealing.
>> At our last meeting I am *certain* we had agreed to take over the
>> island of Barbados.
>> Now I hear this.  I'm completely miffed.
>
>
> Sorry, Bono has rights to islands in the Caribbean. Jimbo owns Florida
> (except Clearwater, which is owned by Scientology, and the Everglades,
> which are owned by Carl Hiaasen) and we have the Arbitration
> Committee yacht cruising between them.

I thot that was Walt Disney Corp. Does he own them? I can remember when it 
was a joke to say "If you believe that, then I hav some swamp-land in 
Florida to sell you.", and I vaguely place the date in the early seventies.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.humor/browse_frm/thread/50508b149ba74856
(Other ways to tell that joke) 




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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Jay Litwyn]

The problem seems inevitable if you read the right taglines and workplace 
placards.

NOTICE: THIS DEPARTMENT NEEDS NO PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM.

Everyone gets enough excercise at Jumping to conclusions, Flying off the 
handle, Running down the boss, Knifing friends in the back, Dodging 
responsibility, and Pushing their luck.

Working here is like pissing in dark pants.
You get a warm feeling that no one else notices.
___
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"David Gerard"  wrote in message 
news:fbad4e140902081151q30b8300bl995ec8930a294...@mail.gmail.com...
> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.
>
>
> - d.
>
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[WikiEN-l] [shavian] and other spelling reform movements

[Jay Litwyn]

I call it "guu" in honour of the mess that is English spelling.
(actually, that is happenstance with a pattern I followed and repeated 
backward and forwards in a song). Jee is a dumb name for a letter.
Jermans call it "gay", and that is not politically correct in English :-; 
Someone called me a spelling reformer on a limited budget, and
it fits.
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The alphabet you know is in random order. This is not:
http://edmc.net/~brewhaha/font/Saffron_LR.wmv

"Alvaro García"  wrote in message 
news:dd4e53d7-3d98-4300-8855-5cca71e2c...@gmail.com...
> You know, there's a letter called G...
>
>
> --
> Alvaro
>
> On 06-02-2009, at 12:17, "Jay Litwyn"  wrote:
>
>> In the most literal sense, an article with one parent is not an
>> orphan. Just
>> remember that a statistician was looking at graphs when she said two
>> or
>> less. True orphans hav no incoming links. Outgoing links are more
>> desirable
>> when the topic is jeneral, like Arts or Enjineering.
>>
>> "Charles Matthews"  wrote in message
>> news:498c01ba.9040...@ntlworld.com...
>>> Article in the Signpost: [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia
>>> Signpost/2009-01-31/Orphans]]. But in my view calling an article with
>>> two respectable incoming links an "orphan" is quite misleading.
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

David Gerard wrote:
> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.
>   
I would go broader, for a cleanup of userspace, now widely used for 
blogging and personal attacks. Basically we want to get back to the 
point where it is understood that (a) Wikipedia pages relate to the 
mission, not anyone's felt need for self-expression, and (b) although 
this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat around elections, the pages are 
also not for battling and campaigning for personal attitudes and beefs. 

In short, as far as I'm concerned, the yelling and personalia can all go 
offwiki, even if there needs to be a special site set up for that. 
People, we are a serious organisation, with something as technical as FR 
getting broad coverage (another column in today's London Independent). 

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Flagged Revisions: de:wp 99.5% reviewed

[John Vandenberg]

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Carcharoth  wrote:
> I'm hoping it will work in practice like wikisource, where there are
> four levels of approval as a text goes through the various
> transcription and proofreading stages. But I may be misunderstanding
> the differences.
>
> To see flagged revisions in action, as far as I'm
> aware, the best thing to do is go to the German Wikipedia or a test
> wiki (is there one?).

More info here: http://quality.wikimedia.org/

Test Wiki has it enabled:

http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:UnreviewedPages

So does the En lab (using English Wikibooks data):

http://en.labs.wikimedia.org/

English Wikibooks has it in production:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Using_Wikibooks/Reviewing_Pages

English Wikinews has it in production:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Flagged_revisions

Hebrew and Russian Wikisource have Flagged Revs enabled; I've not
checked how well they are using it.


--
John Vandenberg

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