Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Jay Litwyn]

Raise tone, drop tone, all with an intuition for time.
If you spend any time at it:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Humor_songs_and_poems
So much for David Levy's theory that humour belongs at uncyclopedia.

In "Get Fuzzy", there was talk about that nation who sings an anthem about 
war.
I will revise. 




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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[wjhonson]

Too late.  I have been watching Alex for some time now and I'm very 
disturbed.  In fact I've alerted the FBI, the CIA, MI-6 and the 
Illuminati.

I'm quite certain that Alex will shortly find himself confined in a 
very small room somewhere several hundred feet under a mundane gray 
building.

Will

-Original Message-
From: Marc Riddell 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki


> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:33 PM, larsen.thomas.h 
> wrote:
>
>> I could be
>> wrong, of course, but I don't think so.
>>
>> ‹Thomas Larsen
>>
on 2/12/09 6:36 PM, Al Tally at majorly.w...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be 
having a
> bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

Alex, with posts like this, you are teaching us who to watch.

Marc


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Marc Riddell]

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:33 PM, larsen.thomas.h > wrote:
> 
>> I could be
>> wrong, of course, but I don't think so.
>> 
>> ‹Thomas Larsen
>> 
on 2/12/09 6:36 PM, Al Tally at majorly.w...@googlemail.com wrote:
> 
> You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be having a
> bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

Alex, with posts like this, you are teaching us who to watch.

Marc


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Alvaro García]

Yeah, I made myself clear in other mail.

Cheers


--
Alvaro

On 12-02-2009, at 22:56, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:

> I think Alvaro the distinction that we should draw is between
> "incivility" which may be a one-off, or even a once-per-week, versus
> "disruptive behaviour".
>
> It's not cut-and-dry, it's not an easy call and often people make the
> wrong call.  If I'm antagonized I will respond.  Parents might punish
> both children involved in a fight, judges have to decide if maybe one
> person was "more wrong" then the other.
>
> Deciding that it's OK to "indefinite ban" a type of behaviour that
> previously resulted in something like a 12 hour block is a bit
> Draconian.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Alvaro García 
> To: English Wikipedia 
> Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 1:38 pm
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki
>
> Maybe my example's not too clear, but my point is you can't justify
> trolling nor excessive arguing with "Hey, let's be nice with him, he's
> having a bad day". That way the world would be in a massive chaos.
> --
> Alvaro
>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Alvaro García]

Oh yeah, for one day is acceptable, but if it's been two weeks and he/ 
she continues like this, some things have to be made!


--
Alvaro

On 12-02-2009, at 22:53, David Goodman  wrote:

> Well, short of things like homicide, we can tolerate it for a day, and
> try to fix up the damage & counsel the offender. What we should stop
> tolerating is when it becomes repeated consistently over many months
> or years.
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Alvaro García  w 
> rote:
>> Maybe my example's not too clear, but my point is you can't justify
>> trolling nor excessive arguing with "Hey, let's be nice with him,  
>> he's
>> having a bad day". That way the world would be in a massive chaos.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alvaro
>>
>> On 13-02-2009, at 1:46, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> And the point here is not about "fighting with a policeman".  The
>>> point
>>> is that two people often fight with *each other*, and when the  
>>> police
>>> are called, they examine both people and provided there are no  
>>> bruises
>>> or broken bones, they basically tell them to cool it and stay apart.
>>>
>>> They don't take them to prison, and they don't exile them from the
>>> island.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Alvaro García 
>>> To: English Wikipedia 
>>> Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:28 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki
>>>
>>> Oh yeah. And if someone, in real life, goes and starts fighting  
>>> with a
>>> policeman for some reason, well, maybe he's having a bad day, let  
>>> him
>>> go!
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alvaro
>>>
>>> On 13-02-2009, at 1:02, Al Tally   
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when
>>>>> you see
>>>>> it
>>>>> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they
>>>>> want; but on
>>>>> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
>>>>> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Riddell
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!
>>>>
>>>> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond
>>>> more
>>>> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's hum
>>> an nature.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alex
>>>> (User:Majorly)
>>>> ___
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>
>
>
> -- 
> David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[wjhonson]

I think Alvaro the distinction that we should draw is between 
"incivility" which may be a one-off, or even a once-per-week, versus 
"disruptive behaviour".

It's not cut-and-dry, it's not an easy call and often people make the 
wrong call.  If I'm antagonized I will respond.  Parents might punish 
both children involved in a fight, judges have to decide if maybe one 
person was "more wrong" then the other.

Deciding that it's OK to "indefinite ban" a type of behaviour that 
previously resulted in something like a 12 hour block is a bit 
Draconian.


-Original Message-
From: Alvaro García 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

Maybe my example's not too clear, but my point is you can't justify
trolling nor excessive arguing with "Hey, let's be nice with him, he's
having a bad day". That way the world would be in a massive chaos.
--
Alvaro



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Goodman]

Well, short of things like homicide, we can tolerate it for a day, and
try to fix up the damage & counsel the offender. What we should stop
tolerating is when it becomes repeated consistently over many months
or years.

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Alvaro García  wrote:
> Maybe my example's not too clear, but my point is you can't justify
> trolling nor excessive arguing with "Hey, let's be nice with him, he's
> having a bad day". That way the world would be in a massive chaos.
>
>
> --
> Alvaro
>
> On 13-02-2009, at 1:46, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> And the point here is not about "fighting with a policeman".  The
>> point
>> is that two people often fight with *each other*, and when the police
>> are called, they examine both people and provided there are no bruises
>> or broken bones, they basically tell them to cool it and stay apart.
>>
>> They don't take them to prison, and they don't exile them from the
>> island.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alvaro García 
>> To: English Wikipedia 
>> Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:28 pm
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki
>>
>> Oh yeah. And if someone, in real life, goes and starts fighting with a
>> policeman for some reason, well, maybe he's having a bad day, let him
>> go!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alvaro
>>
>> On 13-02-2009, at 1:02, Al Tally  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when
>>>> you see
>>>> it
>>>> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they
>>>> want; but on
>>>> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
>>>> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>>>>
>>>> Marc Riddell
>>>>
>>>
>>> "You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!
>>>
>>> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond
>>> more
>>> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's hum
>> an nature.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alex
>>> (User:Majorly)
>>> ___
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
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-- 
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Alvaro García]

Maybe my example's not too clear, but my point is you can't justify  
trolling nor excessive arguing with "Hey, let's be nice with him, he's  
having a bad day". That way the world would be in a massive chaos.


--
Alvaro

On 13-02-2009, at 1:46, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:

> And the point here is not about "fighting with a policeman".  The  
> point
> is that two people often fight with *each other*, and when the police
> are called, they examine both people and provided there are no bruises
> or broken bones, they basically tell them to cool it and stay apart.
>
> They don't take them to prison, and they don't exile them from the
> island.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Alvaro García 
> To: English Wikipedia 
> Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:28 pm
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki
>
> Oh yeah. And if someone, in real life, goes and starts fighting with a
> policeman for some reason, well, maybe he's having a bad day, let him
> go!
>
>
> --
> Alvaro
>
> On 13-02-2009, at 1:02, Al Tally  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when
>>> you see
>>> it
>>> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they
>>> want; but on
>>> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
>>> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>>>
>>> Marc Riddell
>>>
>>
>> "You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!
>>
>> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond  
>> more
>> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's hum
> an nature.
>>
>> --
>> Alex
>> (User:Majorly)
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Marc Riddell]

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 4:04 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> 
>> 2009/2/13 Al Tally :
>> 
>>> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
>>> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's human nature.
>> 
>> There's also people's tendency to be liberal in what they send out and
>> conservative in what they accept. I remember one person moving to ban
>> sarcasm from Wikipedia project space. He was inspired to this when
>> someone responded sarcastically to him comparing them to Hitler.
> 
> on 2/12/09 7:52 PM, George Herbert at george.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I think that "bad day" and "liberal in emit conservative in accept" go
> together fairly strongly.  People who are reasonable (most people) only get
> that way on bad days.
> 
> Part of the problem is that there's a quite legitimate tendency for the
> first thing that goes when you get grumpy or sick to be your introspective
> self-checking...
> 
> People in real life respond a bit better to "Hey, you seem to be extra
> grumpy today, why don't you take the day off?" than they do online.  There's
> the whole depersonalizing / disassociating effect of not seeing people in
> front of you when communicating electronically.
> 
George, this is often why I wonder if a person in this medium would say the
exact same words to the person if they were with them in-person, face to
face.

Marc


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 4:04 PM, David Gerard  wrote:

> 2009/2/13 Al Tally :
>
> > Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
> > harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's human nature.
>
> There's also people's tendency to be liberal in what they send out and
> conservative in what they accept. I remember one person moving to ban
> sarcasm from Wikipedia project space. He was inspired to this when
> someone responded sarcastically to him comparing them to Hitler.



I think that "bad day" and "liberal in emit conservative in accept" go
together fairly strongly.  People who are reasonable (most people) only get
that way on bad days.

Part of the problem is that there's a quite legitimate tendency for the
first thing that goes when you get grumpy or sick to be your introspective
self-checking...

People in real life respond a bit better to "Hey, you seem to be extra
grumpy today, why don't you take the day off?" than they do online.  There's
the whole depersonalizing / disassociating effect of not seeing people in
front of you when communicating electronically.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[wjhonson]

And the point here is not about "fighting with a policeman".  The point 
is that two people often fight with *each other*, and when the police 
are called, they examine both people and provided there are no bruises 
or broken bones, they basically tell them to cool it and stay apart.

They don't take them to prison, and they don't exile them from the 
island.

-Original Message-
From: Alvaro García 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

Oh yeah. And if someone, in real life, goes and starts fighting with a
policeman for some reason, well, maybe he's having a bad day, let him
go!


--
Alvaro

On 13-02-2009, at 1:02, Al Tally  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when
>> you see
>> it
>> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they
>> want; but on
>> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
>> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>
>
> "You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!
>
> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's hum
an nature.
>
> --
> Alex
> (User:Majorly)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Alvaro García]

Oh yeah. And if someone, in real life, goes and starts fighting with a  
policeman for some reason, well, maybe he's having a bad day, let him  
go!


--
Alvaro

On 13-02-2009, at 1:02, Al Tally  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when  
>> you see
>> it
>> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they  
>> want; but on
>> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
>> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>
>
> "You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!
>
> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's human nature.
>
> -- 
> Alex
> (User:Majorly)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[wjhonson]

That only works Thomas when editors have full awareness.  That is, 
other editors have to know what is happening *over here* to *this 
other* editor.  And they just don't.  None of us have a full awareness 
of the project.  So acting harshly to one editor is not going to 
address the behaviour of someone else because that someone else does 
not see those actions.  Nor do they see the reasoning behind them.

Even people who live in-project get mainly only a superficial view of a 
lot of situations.  I really don't see a civility problem today any 
larger than one we had three years ago.  Maybe there is some kind of 
metric which exists like "number of civility templates slapped up" or 
something, but I don't know it.

You don't stop terrorism by executing terrorists.  We are always going 
to have editors calling each other idiots.  We already have an way to 
deal with that in-project.  We have templates and time-outs and so on.  
I'm not seeing why there is a call for anything stronger than what we 
already do.

Will



-Original Message-
From: larsen.thomas.h 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 3:48 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

> You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be 
having a
> bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

Nobody should be
 editing Wikipedia if they are having such a "bad day"
that they are unable to retain their composure and remain polite and
friendly. Harsher reactions to incivility would lead to people
thinking twice before posting inflammatory comments—surely, a good
thing. Some people might not like politeness and friendliness, of
course, and might leave the community, but that is also surely a good
thing.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/13 Al Tally :

> Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
> harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's human nature.


There's also people's tendency to be liberal in what they send out and
conservative in what they accept. I remember one person moving to ban
sarcasm from Wikipedia project space. He was inspired to this when
someone responded sarcastically to him comparing them to Hitler.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Al Tally]

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Marc Riddell
wrote:

>
> Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when you see
> it
> and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they want; but on
> those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
> self-control or take it somewhere else.
>
> Marc Riddell
>

"You know it when you see it" - that's vague enough for me!

Often people don't know they're having a bad day, and may respond more
harshly than they would normally. Not their fault, it's human nature.

-- 
Alex
(User:Majorly)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Marc Riddell]

> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:33 PM, larsen.thomas.h > wrote:
> 
>> I could be
>> wrong, of course, but I don't think so.
>> 
>> ‹Thomas Larsen
>> 
> 
on 2/12/09 6:36 PM, Al Tally at majorly.w...@googlemail.com wrote:

> You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be having a
> bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

Alex, there is nothing "vague" about incivility, you know it when you see it
and feel it. And, a person can have as many "bad days" as they want; but on
those days they should not be posting on the wiki. Exercise some
self-control or take it somewhere else.

Marc Riddell
 


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[larsen.thomas.h]

> You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be having a
> bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

Nobody should be editing Wikipedia if they are having such a "bad day"
that they are unable to retain their composure and remain polite and
friendly. Harsher reactions to incivility would lead to people
thinking twice before posting inflammatory comments—surely, a good
thing. Some people might not like politeness and friendliness, of
course, and might leave the community, but that is also surely a good
thing.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Al Tally]

On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:33 PM, larsen.thomas.h  wrote:

> I could be
> wrong, of course, but I don't think so.
>
> —Thomas Larsen
>

You're wrong. "Uncivil" is a vague term and someone might just be having a
bad day or two (or three). No need to react harshly.

-- 
Alex
(User:Majorly)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[larsen.thomas.h]

Hi Will,

> Because by reacting harshly you create IP-vandals.

How so? If people who are blocked for being uncivil are going to turn
into IP vandals, that's an even greater reason for rejecting uncivil
users outright, i.e., blocking on sight any incivil user. I could be
wrong, of course, but I don't think so.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[wjhonson]

Because by reacting harshly you create IP-vandals.



-Original Message-
From: larsen.thomas.h 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:29 am
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

Hi all,

I personally believe that the only solution to the problem of incivil
users is to warn them once and, if their incivility continues, block
them permanently. Serious incivility and egregrious personal attacks
should be met with an indefinite block immediately. Harsh, perhaps,
but every uncivil contributor degrades the reputation of Wikipedia and
deters many potentially helpful people from expressing their thoughts
and engaging constructively.

I realise that this might be considered against Wikipedia's principles
of assuming good faith, in which case, I say, these principles should
be rejected. Why be nice to trolls and scare away newcomers?

Of course, these standards should be applied equally to all
contributors—ranging from anonymous-IP contributors to well-known
administrators and stewards.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[larsen.thomas.h]

Hi all,

I personally believe that the only solution to the problem of incivil
users is to warn them once and, if their incivility continues, block
them permanently. Serious incivility and egregrious personal attacks
should be met with an indefinite block immediately. Harsh, perhaps,
but every uncivil contributor degrades the reputation of Wikipedia and
deters many potentially helpful people from expressing their thoughts
and engaging constructively.

I realise that this might be considered against Wikipedia's principles
of assuming good faith, in which case, I say, these principles should
be rejected. Why be nice to trolls and scare away newcomers?

Of course, these standards should be applied equally to all
contributors—ranging from anonymous-IP contributors to well-known
administrators and stewards.

—Thomas Larsen

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Patton 123]

I've noticed that established users are practically immune to the
consequences of being incivil if they aren't absolute trolls. I mean, I
could probably say "fuck you" to a number of people right now and get away
with it.

Wouldn't it be nice to introduce something similar to 3rr except for
incivility? Ie. if you make a personal attack you get blocked for 6 hours or
12 or some length shorter than 24. There is of course the obvious problem
that what constitues a personal attack is completly subjective, but I
thought I'd post this anyway.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

David Gerard wrote:
>> 2009/2/9 Phil Nash :
>>
>>> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to
>>> why people care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as
>>> an unconstructive intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term
>>> cultural significance,
>>
>>
>> I have a fake news blog for that sort of thing. I find it works well
>> if you combine Celebrity Big Brother with assisted suicide. Either
>> they like it or they look at you funny and go away, either of these
>> counts as a win.

Assisted suicide would be helpful. I put in a repeat prescription request a 
week ago for Fluoxetine, Zopiclone, Ativan and Nembutal, but haven't heard 
anything back yet. You do wonder what the NHS is actually for. Not helping, 
obviously.





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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

Sam Blacketer wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Phil Nash
>> wrote: 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to
>>> why people care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as
>>> an unconstructive intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term
>>> cultural significance, but
>>> then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval
>>> Wiltshire monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who
>>> would, er, pay me money
>>> for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to
>>> afford cheese. And meat.
>>> 
>> 
>> There is the Institute of Historical Review, and has the VCH of
>> Wiltshire been completed yet?

Just point me at them, and I'll happily root through their archives.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Phil Nash :

> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people
> care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive
> intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance,


I have a fake news blog for that sort of thing. I find it works well
if you combine Celebrity Big Brother with assisted suicide. Either
they like it or they look at you funny and go away, either of these
counts as a win.

This may be getting off-topic ...


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Sam Blacketer]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Phil Nash wrote:

>
> Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people
> care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive
> intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance,
> but
> then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval Wiltshire
> monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who would, er, pay me
> money
> for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to afford
> cheese. And meat.
>

There is the Institute of Historical Review, and has the VCH of Wiltshire
been completed yet?

-- 
Sam Blacketer
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Phil Nash]

David Gerard wrote:
>> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>>
>>> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are
>>> great) are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia
>>> building, but I think are a legitimate side operation, especially
>>> when article do (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also
>>> legitimate because some people prefer to ask humans a question and
>>> have them look it up, rather than look things up themselves. The
>>> side effect is quite a lot of chatter around the questions and
>>> answers.
>>
>>
>> It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
>> to show off our erudition.
>>
>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

I tend to agree; there are occasions where two editors can engage 
constructively in an academic discourse which would probably not attract 
much interest on an article's talk page. Far better that they sort it out 
between themselves, and if that happens to be on-Wiki, dissenting editors 
can be directed to such a subpage for further discussion; with the proviso 
that such discussions be flagged on article talk pages, if they are of 
sufficient moment, and potential contributors be made aware that those 
discussions are ongoing.

Personally, I'm usually the fourth person, totally boggled as to why people 
care about "Celebrity Come Dancing" in the slightest, as an unconstructive 
intersection of two concepts lacking in long-term cultural significance, but 
then, perhaps that's why I've become more interested in medieval Wiltshire 
monasteries of late. P.Ss, if you know of anyone who would, er, pay me money 
for doing this, please let me know, as I do miss being able to afford 
cheese. And meat.

Regards



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:19 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>
>>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)
>
>> The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)
>
> A non-Wikipedian! *hrmph*

Oops! Should have picked up on that. Sorry. Were you one of the three
military historians then? I must admit that when I helped out with the
FAR for James I of England (and VI of Scotland), I did bore people for
months afterwards with potted stories about James's life. So I
recognise what you are talking about here.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Carcharoth :

>> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
>> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
>> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

> The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)


A non-Wikipedian! *hrmph*


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:12 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> 2009/2/9 Carcharoth :
>
>> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
>> are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
>> think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
>> (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
>> some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
>> rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
>> of chatter around the questions and answers.
>
>
> It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
> to show off our erudition.
>
> (e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
> talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
> just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)

The person looking slightly boggled was you, right? :-)

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 Carcharoth :

> To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
> are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
> think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
> (sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
> some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
> rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
> of chatter around the questions and answers.


It's definitely right in line with the mission. Also a chance for us
to show off our erudition.

(e.g. going down the pub, there's three Wikipedians at the table
talking obscure military history they've picked up in the course of
just hanging around and a fourth person looking slightly boggled.)


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

 
In a message dated 2/9/2009 3:01:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
carcharot...@googlemail.com writes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Debeo_Morium/Chats

Please  don't run off and do something based on reading this. That
would be a bit  unfair. But is that a good example of the sort of thing
Charles was talking  about or not? Is that "community" or "blogging" or
"chatting" or  "encyclopedia building"?>>



-
These "chat" links don't have any content however.  To me it seems  just like 
a person had their hand slapped for "chatting" in some article, and so  
decided to explore a new avenue for article building.  I don't find this  sort 
of 
thing to interfere with my own use or editing of the project.  In  fact it 
seems commendable that someone would have the creativity to think of  something 
like this (even though it didn't go anywhere).
 
We should encourage the use of the project in new ways that are  
*potentially* helpful, even if no one else has thought of them before.  We  
don't want to 
become static.  The project should give free rein to new  ideas, let them play 
out, and see where they lead and *then* rein in ideas that  are abusive.
 
One-offs, partials, dead links... aren't abusive.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

Personally I don't think we have enough commentary on the actions of  others. 
 Some people using their tools blithely go through the project  leaving 
wreckage in their paths believing that they will never be subject to  scrutiny, 
simply because those they tred upon, don't know enough or have the  ability to 
contruct a long involved analysis.
 
Having bits and pieces of past conflicts in the userspace helps injured  
parties collect data about these rogues, so that a full commentary can be  
contructed and also so that groups can be formed to co-ordinate a  campaign.
 
I don't have a problem with allowing this sort of thing to exist.  If  a 
person finds themselves often the target of this sort of approach then maybe  
the 
problem in with them, and not with those who take the time to create this  
evidence in userspace.
 
Anything which helps identify abuse or suspected abuse in the project is to  
our credit, not detriment.
 
Will Johnson
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Carcharoth]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Charles Matthews
 wrote:
> George Herbert wrote:
>> What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on
>> en.wp now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a
>> pattern requiring action. 
> Well, I don't want to get into names. I recommend looking at subpage
> usage (easy for a given user now, link at the bottom of contributions)
> to get an idea of how userspace is applied.  My past concerns range from
> "record keeping", i.e. making a point of logging things on the site as
> they happen so that anyone checking your recent contributions will see
> you've noticed), to "evidence gathering" when there is no dispute
> resolution in sight, to "essay writing" that is not really designed to
> produce an essay or position paper, but to allow commentary on the
> behaviour of others. These share the properties of being insidious
> (quite close to apparently legitimate usage) but also deleterious to the
> community.

Clicking on "random" for user pages is also quite, um, instructive.
Just remember to make a note of the user pages you see that really set
red flags off, or set you laughing, YMMV. Once you click away using
Special:Random, and you shut the browser and lose the history, you may
never remember where that page was!

As Charles says, though, most of the borderline stuff is in user
subpages. Not sure if those show up in random clicks. I suspect they
don't, as otherwise special:random would bring up archives all the
time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random/user

On the other hand, my first click led me to a subpage. 

But then again, it took me only five or so clicks to find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Debeo_Morium/Chats

Please don't run off and do something based on reading this. That
would be a bit unfair. But is that a good example of the sort of thing
Charles was talking about or not? Is that "community" or "blogging" or
"chatting" or "encyclopedia building"?

To pick another example. The reference desks (which I think are great)
are technically a bit divorced from the encyclopedia building, but I
think are a legitimate side operation, especially when article do
(sometimes) get improved as a result. It's also legitimate because
some people prefer to ask humans a question and have them look it up,
rather than look things up themselves. The side effect is quite a lot
of chatter around the questions and answers.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on 
> en.wp now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a 
> pattern requiring action. 
Well, I don't want to get into names. I recommend looking at subpage 
usage (easy for a given user now, link at the bottom of contributions) 
to get an idea of how userspace is applied.  My past concerns range from 
"record keeping", i.e. making a point of logging things on the site as 
they happen so that anyone checking your recent contributions will see 
you've noticed), to "evidence gathering" when there is no dispute 
resolution in sight, to "essay writing" that is not really designed to 
produce an essay or position paper, but to allow commentary on the 
behaviour of others. These share the properties of being insidious 
(quite close to apparently legitimate usage) but also deleterious to the 
community. 

Charles



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not
> > anyone's felt need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and
> > is being read that way by several of us...) much further.  I don't
> > think there's support or a consensus for much further.  Wikipedia
> > isn't a blog, social networking site, or user homepage - but it is a
> > community, and a working environment (volunteer as it is), and as
> > David points out, people like to decorate their cubes (in whatever
> > form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not something to
> > be arbitrarily squashed.
> Well then, please read in the on-topic fashion - if done in such a way
> as to "lower the tone", I recall, userpages are not really welcome to
> contain just anything. But the misreading of userspace=user page here is
> vexing.  The problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on
> dedicated user pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on
> their rights to do that.
>

Ok.  I am not trying to be needlessly confrontational here, your earlier
comments seemed to imply something else.

What you're describing doesn't seem to me to be all that prevalent on en.wp
now.  I am open to examples and discussion to demonstrate a pattern
requiring action.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

In a message dated 2/9/2009 12:31:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,  
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com writes:

The  problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on 
dedicated user  pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on 
their rights to do  that.>>
--
Example?  Let's have a few concrete examples so we know more clearly  what 
you are and aren't saying.
 
Will
 
 
**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not 
> anyone's felt need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and 
> is being read that way by several of us...) much further.  I don't 
> think there's support or a consensus for much further.  Wikipedia 
> isn't a blog, social networking site, or user homepage - but it is a 
> community, and a working environment (volunteer as it is), and as 
> David points out, people like to decorate their cubes (in whatever 
> form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not something to 
> be arbitrarily squashed.
Well then, please read in the on-topic fashion - if done in such a way 
as to "lower the tone", I recall, userpages are not really welcome to 
contain just anything. But the misreading of userspace=user page here is 
vexing.  The problem comes, re blogging, when people really do "blog" on 
dedicated user pages, in violation of WP:USER, and apparently stand on 
their rights to do that.

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9 The Cunctator :

> Mandated regulations for forcing politeness generally don't work well. If
> you don't trust people to have common sense, they won't exercise it.


I don't either. However, it was interesting to note KPBotany's claims
in the WT:ACN thread that en:wp is notably worse than other Wikipedias
in this regard.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[The Cunctator]

Mandated regulations for forcing politeness generally don't work well. If
you don't trust people to have common sense, they won't exercise it.

But I know I'm in the minority here, so have fun.

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 2009/2/9  :
> >>
> >>
> >>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> >>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my
> believe
> >>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> >>>
> >> "consensus"
> >>
> >>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
> >>>
> >> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> > activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They
> are
> > not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> > principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty
> of
> > opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of
> any
> > personalization.
> >
> > The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
> >
> >
> With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude
> abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across
> that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> George Herbert wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> 2009/2/9  :
> >>
> >>
> >>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> >>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my
> believe
> >>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> >>>
> >> "consensus"
> >>
> >>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
> >>>
> >> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> > activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They
> are
> > not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> > principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty
> of
> > opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of
> any
> > personalization.
> >
> > The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
> >
> >
> With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude
> abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across
> that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.


There is no disagreement (among admins / experienced users) that people
using Wikipedia as a social networking site are violating the point of the
project and site, and when identified they're asked to stop and eventually
blocked.  That's not controversial.

Your comment ( "(a) Wikipedia pages relate to the mission, not anyone's felt
need for self-expression" ) goes, or seems to imply (and is being read that
way by several of us...) much further.  I don't think there's support or a
consensus for much further.  Wikipedia isn't a blog, social networking site,
or user homepage - but it is a community, and a working environment
(volunteer as it is), and as David points out, people like to decorate their
cubes (in whatever form cubes take).  This is normal human behavior and not
something to be arbitrarily squashed.

Your other comment ( "(b) although this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat
around elections, the pages are also not for battling and campaigning for
personal attitudes and beefs" ) is reasonable but somewhat harder to pull
off than asking for civility in the main project spaces.  We already enforce
NPA and CIVIL to some degree in the userspace, but making that an overriding
priority would likely raise more objections and resistance than is useful.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

George Herbert wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:
>
>   
>> 2009/2/9  :
>>
>> 
>>> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
>>> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe
>>>   
>> that
>> 
>>> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
>>>   
>> "consensus"
>> 
>>> that it should be viewed as just fine.
>>>   
>> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
>>
>> 
>
>
> At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
> activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They are
> not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
> principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty of
> opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of any
> personalization.
>
> The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.
>
>   
With respect, there are other ways of "lowering the tone", besides "rude 
abusive".  A somewhat large and scarlet herring having been drawn across 
that point, I seem to have to point it out once more.

Charles



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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[George Herbert]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> 2009/2/9  :
>
> > Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> > themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe
> that
> > those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the
> "consensus"
> > that it should be viewed as just fine.
>
>
> I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.
>


At the very least , let's try to keep "focusing only on Encyclopedia
activities" separate from "focusing on abusive and rude behavior".  They are
not related in any way.  I don't know of any significant objection in
principle to people treating each other politely, but I do know of plenty of
opposition (and count myself among it) on sterilizing the environment of any
personalization.

The target of the day is rude abusive behavior - stay on target.


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

2009/2/9  :

> Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about
> themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe that
> those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the 
> "consensus"
> that it should be viewed as just fine.


I view it as similar to decorating your cubicle at work.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[WJhonson]

< Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
>  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
>  More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion,  etc.
>   
I would go broader, for a cleanup of userspace,  now widely used for 
blogging and personal attacks. Basically we want to  get back to the 
point where it is understood that (a) Wikipedia pages  relate to the 
mission, not anyone's felt need for self-expression, and (b)  although 
this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat around elections, the  pages are 
also not for battling and campaigning for personal attitudes and  beefs. 

In short, as far as I'm concerned, the yelling and personalia  can all go 
offwiki, even if there needs to be a special site set up for  that. 
People, we are a serious organisation, with something as technical  as FR 
getting broad coverage (another column in today's London  Independent). 

Charles>>
-
I disagree with equating "blogging and personal attacks" with  
"self-expression".
 
Most of our editors enjoy marking up their user page with details about  
themselves, and I see no harm to the project in that and it's my believe that  
those who do it, constitute the majority of the editors and thus the 
"consensus"  
that it should be viewed as just fine.
 
Will Johnson



**The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards.  AOL Music takes you there. 
(http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi0002)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Jay Litwyn]

The problem seems inevitable if you read the right taglines and workplace 
placards.

NOTICE: THIS DEPARTMENT NEEDS NO PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM.

Everyone gets enough excercise at Jumping to conclusions, Flying off the 
handle, Running down the boss, Knifing friends in the back, Dodging 
responsibility, and Pushing their luck.

Working here is like pissing in dark pants.
You get a warm feeling that no one else notices.
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"David Gerard"  wrote in message 
news:fbad4e140902081151q30b8300bl995ec8930a294...@mail.gmail.com...
> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.
>
>
> - d.
>
> ___
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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Charles Matthews]

David Gerard wrote:
> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.
>   
I would go broader, for a cleanup of userspace, now widely used for 
blogging and personal attacks. Basically we want to get back to the 
point where it is understood that (a) Wikipedia pages relate to the 
mission, not anyone's felt need for self-expression, and (b) although 
this tenet needs to be relaxed somewhat around elections, the pages are 
also not for battling and campaigning for personal attitudes and beefs. 

In short, as far as I'm concerned, the yelling and personalia can all go 
offwiki, even if there needs to be a special site set up for that. 
People, we are a serious organisation, with something as technical as FR 
getting broad coverage (another column in today's London Independent). 

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Skyring]

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Ian Woollard  wrote:
> On 08/02/2009, David Gerard  wrote:
>> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>>
>> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.
>
> I think sniffing helium and saying everything 3 times could work
> (because that makes it true).
>
> Although I do take your point about some of the admin behaviours.

Rather like a police force growing fat and corrupt, their members
exempt from parking and speeding tickets. There are a great many
superb admins, hard-working, pleasant, polite. And there are a few who
are not, who delight in their position, with some remarkably snarky
behaviour, knowing that no wikicop is ever going to do more than
gently chide them. I'd like to see standards enforced from the top
down, rather from the bottom up.

-- 
Peter in Canberra

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Re: [WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[Ian Woollard]

On 08/02/2009, David Gerard  wrote:
> Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki
>
> More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.

I think sniffing helium and saying everything 3 times could work
(because that makes it true).

Although I do take your point about some of the admin behaviours.

> - d.

-- 
-Ian Woollard

We live in an imperfectly imperfect world. Life in a perfectly
imperfect world would be much better.

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[WikiEN-l] How to raise the tone of the wiki

[David Gerard]

Suggestion posted to AC noticeboard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#How_to_raise_the_tone_of_the_wiki

More input needed for the idea, general support, general revulsion, etc.


- d.

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