Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal: Wikitech contributors
On 04/04/2013 01:45 AM, Quim Gil wrote: As far as I can see it is impossible to solve the puzzle without changing something and upsetting someone. Well, no. There is always a possibility. We can detach the Wikitech contributors prototype development from any content migration and leave mediawiki.org undisrupted during this first phase. Wikitech has the basic software we need to build a prototype quicker and easier. Life in mediawiki.org would continue as it is. Everybody would be welcome to join the experiment but nobody would be forced to. If/when the prototype is ready we can discuss about next steps with a better common understanding. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Wikitech_contributors#First_phase has been edited accordingly. -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] [Language Engineering] Office hour on 10th April 2013 at 1700 UTC/1000 PDT
* Hello, The Wikimedia Language Engineering team [1] invites everyone to join the team’s monthly office hour on April 10, 2013. We have some exciting updates about our ongoing projects, some of which have also been shared in our recent blog posts[2]. During this session we would like to walk through some of them. The team would also like to introduce a new outreach program which was mentioned in the last office hour held on 13th March 2013 [3]. Event details and the general agenda is mentioned below. See you all at the IRC office hour! regards Runa Event Details: == Date: 2013-04-10 (Wednesday) Time: 1700 UTC, 1000 PDT IRC channel: #wikimedia-office on irc.freenode.net Agenda: 1. Introductions 2. Translate UX - Deployment and other news 3. Language Mavens - an outreach initiative with the Wikimedia language communities 4. MediaWiki Language Extension Bundle (MLEB) Release 5. Q/A - We shall be taking questions during the session. Questions can also be sent to runa at wikimedia dot org r...@wikimedia.org before the event and can be addressed during the office-hour. [1] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Language_Engineering_team [2] http://blog.wikimedia.org/c/technology/features/internationalization-and-localization/ [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2013-03-13 * -- Language Engineering - Outreach and QA Coordinator Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Removing the Hooks class
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Daniel Friesen dan...@nadir-seen-fire.comwrote: In other languages of course like python and ruby. The application runs more like a daemon. Initialization can be done once when the program starts up. Then many requests are handled by the same process. But PHP pretends to be CGI even when not CGI. HipHop is an improvement. But we're not quite there yet and most people probably won't try using it or need it. *sigh* how I wish PHP would do something like Python and Ruby. Also, does MW even work at all with HipHop anymore? *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Removing the Hooks class
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: Also, does MW even work at all with HipHop anymore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju8suSJY0zQ -- Brad Jorsch Software Engineer Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal: Wikitech contributors
Erik Moeller wrote: Having all technical contributors directed to wikitech.wikimedia.org would address that - it would introduce them to a magical world of dev-ops unicorns and PHP rainbows at the same time. And having mediawiki.org more clearly dedicated to the product would allow it to shine more brightly in its own sunflower-y colors. :D At the same time, the amount of wiki-ping-pong we're playing with technically interested users could very well increase significantly as a result. Right now, wikitech.wikimedia.org is relatively quiet, with changes typically either being made by the Wikimedia ops team or by Labs users. It simply stands to reason that if we distribute a lot of content from a large wiki to a much smaller one, the number of times that you'll have to go back and forth between the two to find what you're looking for will increase. API docs? Over here. Status update? Over there. Extension installation docs? Over here. Specs related to the same extension? Over there. Ping, pong. Ping, pong. The divisions may seem logical to us, but for the confused technical contributor, things could easily get a lot worse. Yes, this. All of this. If we do go forward with the migration to wikitech.wikimedia.org, I would argue in favor of largely depleting mediawiki.org of content except for clearly necessary end user documentation and support pages, to minimize ping pong effects. Before too much gets moved or migrated (for a second time, in some cases, as Daniel F. points out... some of this content was already moved from Meta-Wiki to MediaWiki.org), I'd like to see more thought put into where everything should end up. Moves/migrations are disruptive and the resulting mess may be worse than keeping everything where it is for now. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Removing the Hooks class
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Brad Jorsch bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: Also, does MW even work at all with HipHop anymore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju8suSJY0zQ Oh boy. 1:08. I'm gonna have fun today. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015 Major in Computer Science www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Removing the Hooks class
You can't cache program state and loaded code like that in PHP. We explicitly have to abuse the autoloader and develop other patterns to avoid loading unused portions of code because if we don't our initialization is unreasonably long. Yeah, I understand it, the idea was to serialize globals like $wgHooks $wgAutoloadClasses and etc - and load them in the beginning of each request... So each extension would be separated in two parts: (1) metadata, executed once and then cached and (2) classes, cached by opcode cacher and loaded by a slim autoloader. By this approach you'll get rid of executing even the main file of each extension; the downside is that it of course would require some extension rewriting. I'm curious is such feature going to result in any performance benefit or not :) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
Hello and welcome to your weekly deployment highlights email. Here are some interesting and/or important deployments scheduled for next week: == Wikidata == * Wikidata to English Wikipedia on Monday * Pending all OK on ENWP, Wikidata on all Wikipedias on Wednesday == i10n == * Updates to the Translate Solr schema on Tuesday (at 08:00 UTC) == Lightning Deploys! == * M-Th at 23:00 UTC (4pm Pacific) for 30 minutes ** Let me know if you plan on using one! ** And please do record what you did on the Deployments wiki, eg https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deploymentsdiff=65268oldid=65257 (thanks Brad!) ** https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Lightning_deployments#Process As always, the full calendar can be found here: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Deployments If you have any other expected deployments that are noteworthy, please reply here. Greg -- | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D | ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal: Wikitech contributors
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org wrote: Well, no. There is always a possibility. We can detach the Wikitech contributors prototype development from any content migration and leave mediawiki.org undisrupted during this first phase. Wikitech has the basic software we need to build a prototype quicker and easier. Life in mediawiki.org would continue as it is. Everybody would be welcome to join the experiment but nobody would be forced to. If/when the prototype is ready we can discuss about next steps with a better common understanding. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/**Requests_for_comment/Wikitech_** contributors#First_phasehttp://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Wikitech_contributors#First_phasehas been edited accordingly. Thanks for these edits Quim, especially adding specific questions you're trying to answer with each feature/iteration. I think separating out the wiki migration issue and prototyping new features on wikitech is a good way to diffuse any stress around either question. This is a much better way to move forward, and I'm happy to help try out any features related to structured user pages, projects, events, etc. when you're ready for that. Steven ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal: Wikitech contributors
On 04/05/2013 01:25 PM, Steven Walling wrote: This is a much better way to move forward, and I'm happy to help try out any features related to structured user pages, projects, events, etc. when you're ready for that. Thank you very much! All the input received this week has been very useful to bring the proposal to a new level. CHANGES This will be an experiment on a side, not touching mediawiki.org. * No content migration. * No change in current workflows. We are flexible with the development priorities. * The sequence at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Wikitech_contributors#Development is flexible. * Speak up! (in the discussion page, please) Prototyping one small feature at a time. * Defining the problems we want to solve beforehand. * Evaluating the results before building more features on top. Community evaluation based on results and lessons learned. * This experiment will propose changes to mediawiki.org only if/when clearly positive results can be demonstrated. Hopefully this addresses the majority of concerns. I'm also glad to see that the discussion is moving onto details at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Wikitech_contributors PS: Let me also say something. Even if the taste of this thread has been mostly negative, the individual feedback gathered from many people in the past weeks has been very different. Many have welcomed the idea and asked how to help. Some have been cautious, but curious and willing to see the proposal moving forward. Steven's quote at the top of this email made my day. :) -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
Greg Grossmeier wrote: Here are some interesting and/or important deployments scheduled for next week: == Wikidata == * Wikidata to English Wikipedia on Monday * Pending all OK on ENWP, Wikidata on all Wikipedias on Wednesday Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
quote name=MZMcBride date=2013-04-05 time=19:00:06 -0400 Greg Grossmeier wrote: Here are some interesting and/or important deployments scheduled for next week: == Wikidata == * Wikidata to English Wikipedia on Monday * Pending all OK on ENWP, Wikidata on all Wikipedias on Wednesday Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). Sorry, yes, this is supposed to read Phase 2 of Wikidata. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikidata :) Greg -- | Greg GrossmeierGPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | identi.ca: @gregA18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D | ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:00 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). I've posted an announcement with more details on the technical village pump at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikidata_phase_2_is_coming_soon Let me know if anything is still unclear so I can clarify. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Community Communications for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Obentrautstr. 72 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
On 5 April 2013 19:07, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:00 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). I've posted an announcement with more details on the technical village pump at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikidata_phase_2_is_coming_soon Let me know if anything is still unclear so I can clarify. Cheers Lydia Lydia, could you please point me to the discussion on *English Wikipedia* where the community indicated an interest in deploying this software? Infoboxes and sourcing to another website completely outside the control of English Wikipedia is a rather big issue, and I would expect to see a Request for Comment with at least 200-300 participants. Risker/Anne ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 April 2013 19:07, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:00 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). I've posted an announcement with more details on the technical village pump at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikidata_phase_2_is_coming_soon Let me know if anything is still unclear so I can clarify. Cheers Lydia Lydia, could you please point me to the discussion on *English Wikipedia* where the community indicated an interest in deploying this software? Infoboxes and sourcing to another website completely outside the control of English Wikipedia is a rather big issue, and I would expect to see a Request for Comment with at least 200-300 participants. Risker/Anne In my opinion, as a casual Wikidata editor and not-so-casual Wikipedia editor, I think the Commons analogy continues to hold up pretty well. Commons exists. We can use it, as a project. We don't *have* to (and indeed don't always, on en:wp, where fair use images are accepted). As I understand it, the same is true with Wikidata -- it will be around, if and when it seems appropriate to use. Of course Commons and Wikidata will both be more useful and more awesome the more projects do use them. But my very non-technical understanding of this deployment is that basically we made the projects able to see that Wikidata exists (correct me if I'm wrong!) Now as far as I can tell there's a whole lot of work yet to do in order to figure out how exactly one might link to data or produce an infobox and what that might look like -- deployment does not seem to mean ready for prime-time, yet -- and of course the data-building itself is just barely getting started. Best practices for infoboxes does seem like a project-wide RFC to me. But hopefully, when we get to that point, wikidata will be a useful option. -- phoebe * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
On Friday, April 5, 2013, phoebe ayers wrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: On 5 April 2013 19:07, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.dejavascript:; wrote: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:00 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.comjavascript:; wrote: Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). I've posted an announcement with more details on the technical village pump at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikidata_phase_2_is_coming_soon Let me know if anything is still unclear so I can clarify. Cheers Lydia Lydia, could you please point me to the discussion on *English Wikipedia* where the community indicated an interest in deploying this software? Infoboxes and sourcing to another website completely outside the control of English Wikipedia is a rather big issue, and I would expect to see a Request for Comment with at least 200-300 participants. Risker/Anne In my opinion, as a casual Wikidata editor and not-so-casual Wikipedia editor, I think the Commons analogy continues to hold up pretty well. Commons exists. We can use it, as a project. We don't *have* to (and indeed don't always, on en:wp, where fair use images are accepted). As I understand it, the same is true with Wikidata -- it will be around, if and when it seems appropriate to use. Yes, it works exactly the same. The deployment means that a wiki has the option to use Wikidata. Not that it has to. The RFC, if any, should be about a policy on how to use Wikidata features provided by this deployment. Do we want to mass transition info boxes? Trial on a certain number? Should we disallow use of properties outside templates? Of course Commons and Wikidata will both be more useful and more awesome the more projects do use them. But my very non-technical understanding of this deployment is that basically we made the projects able to see that Wikidata exists (correct me if I'm wrong!) Now as far as I can tell there's a whole lot of work yet to do in order to figure out how exactly one might link to data or produce an infobox and what that might look like -- deployment does not seem to mean ready for prime-time, yet -- and of course the data-building itself is just barely getting started. Best practices for infoboxes does seem like a project-wide RFC to me. But hopefully, when we get to that point, wikidata will be a useful option. -- phoebe * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deployment highlights - week of April 8th
On 5 April 2013 22:24, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 April 2013 19:07, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:00 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Sorry, I don't know what this means. I thought Wikidata was already deployed to the English Wikipedia (and possibly other projects as well). I've posted an announcement with more details on the technical village pump at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Wikidata_phase_2_is_coming_soon Let me know if anything is still unclear so I can clarify. Cheers Lydia Lydia, could you please point me to the discussion on *English Wikipedia* where the community indicated an interest in deploying this software? Infoboxes and sourcing to another website completely outside the control of English Wikipedia is a rather big issue, and I would expect to see a Request for Comment with at least 200-300 participants. Risker/Anne In my opinion, as a casual Wikidata editor and not-so-casual Wikipedia editor, I think the Commons analogy continues to hold up pretty well. Commons exists. We can use it, as a project. We don't *have* to (and indeed don't always, on en:wp, where fair use images are accepted). As I understand it, the same is true with Wikidata -- it will be around, if and when it seems appropriate to use. Of course Commons and Wikidata will both be more useful and more awesome the more projects do use them. But my very non-technical understanding of this deployment is that basically we made the projects able to see that Wikidata exists (correct me if I'm wrong!) Now as far as I can tell there's a whole lot of work yet to do in order to figure out how exactly one might link to data or produce an infobox and what that might look like -- deployment does not seem to mean ready for prime-time, yet -- and of course the data-building itself is just barely getting started. Best practices for infoboxes does seem like a project-wide RFC to me. But hopefully, when we get to that point, wikidata will be a useful option. Well, the problem is that we *are* at that point now. Wikidata II *is* intended to be used in infoboxes. We already have edit skirmishes happening all over the project with people adding infoboxes where they aren't wanted, explicitly to take advantage of wikidata, and using wikidata as their excuse to bring it in. Load it up, okay. But don't turn it on until the community discusses whether or not it wants it turned on. It's simply contemptuous of the community to do that. You know as well as I do that as soon as a feature is available, it's used by some people who will fight to the death to keep using it, whether or not it is what the community wants. (See revision deletion which, as soon as it was turned on for administrators on English Wikipedia before the process had been worked out, immediately resulted in tens of thousands of inappropriate revision deletions in its first week. Even now, at least 30% of revision deletions are inappropriate.) You want to keep editors, you need to actually make sure that the changes you are adding are what they want, not what they'll leave over. I disagree that the Commons analogy holds up. Commons is very active, and easily accessible, and it's pretty obvious how to remove unwanted images/media. It is *not* obvious how to remove wikidata, and it is a site that is extremely not user friendly (I've checked, and even got someone to give me a tour, and it makes wikitext look simple). There is a rather big difference between images to articles, which aren't essential but are very complementary, and the information contained in an article. We know for a fact that there are many different versions of even supposedly factual data (dates of birth for well-known people, names of battles, Gdansk/Danzig, etc). In many cases, there has been a careful and sometimes very delicate consensus reached by local editors to address these variations. Now we will have infoboxes with one version and the actual article saying something else - and the information in the infobox will be outside of the control of the editors of the article absent going to another site. So now those wars about content will have to go to two sites at once, one of which will be international. So that means users who have never logged into Wikipedia will have the ability to control the content of the project. Let's not put this in place until the community decides whether or not it wants it. Risker/Anne ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
