Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
While browsing the web for new trends of human-horse communication horse management, I found the website of Marjorie Smith, and I've been deeply influenced by her; her thoughts about links between man-to-man and man-to-horse communication - really an example of advantages of NVC - were extremely interesting and inspiring. I don't know why she removed her website from the web, but I saved a copy of it into my own website, with an Italian translation (with Marjorie permission) but - luckily - with original English front-text. You can find it here: http://www.alexbrollo.com/people-for-peace/ If yoi like horses and peace, it's a very interesting text. It points attention on fear, and to how fighting against fear is important for NVC. Alex 2014-02-18 4:33 GMT+01:00 Isarra Yos zhoris...@gmail.com: If you're pissed, that's when you use something like NVC, except taking it even further, perhaps. Put other people on edge too, but then if they do anything about it, wll... I think this may be the standard approach on a lot of discussion boards on enwp. On 18/02/14 03:26, Adam Wight wrote: Interesting... I have very little authority to stand on, but in my exposure to so-called NVC, it seems more appropriate for diplomatic negotiations than for any real-life human situation. IMO this approach boils down to getting your way without looking like a dick. Creeps me out. That said, yes it's important to always deal generously with others. Unless you're pissed :p love, Adam On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman d.j.hartman+wmf...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 feb. 2014, at 21:45, Monte Hurd mh...@wikimedia.org wrote: +1 When I read certain threads on this list, I feel like the assume good faith principle is often forgotten. Because this behavior makes me not want to participate in discussions about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual perceived consensus? To be sure, if you don't assume good faith, your opinion still matters, but you unnecessarily weaken both your argument and the discussion. +many Yes on this list we have some strong opinions and we aren't always particularly careful about how we express them, but assume good faith[1] does indeed go a long way and that should be the default mode for reading. The default mode for writing should of course be don't be a dick [2]. We have to remember that although many people are well versed in English here, it is often not their mother tongue, making it more difficult to understand the subtleties of the opinions of others and/or to express theirs, which might lead to frustration for both sides. And some people are simply terse where others are blunt and some people have more time than others to create replies or to wait for someones attempts to explain something properly. Being inclusive for this reason is usually regarded as a good thing and is thus a natural part of assume good faith. It is why 'civility' often is so difficult too map directly to community standards, because it is too tightly coupled with ones own norms, values and skills to be inclusive. I'm personally good with almost anything that keeps a good distance from both Linus Torvalds-style and NVC. We shouldn't be afraid to point out errors or have hefty discussions and we need to keep it inside the lines where people will want to participate. But this is no kindergarten either and some of the more abrasive postings have made a positive difference. It's difficult to strike the right balance but it's good to ask people once in a while to pay attention to how we communicate. DJ [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Assume_good_faith [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick PS. Because this behavior makes me not want to participate in discussions about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual perceived consensus? If that's what you think of wikitech-l, I assume it is easy to guess what you think about the talk page of Jimmy Wales, en.wp's Request for adminship and en.wp's Administrator noticeboard ? :) PPS. I'm quite sure Linus would burn NVC to the ground if he had the chance :) For those who haven't followed it and who have a bit of time on their hands: There was a very 'interesting' flamewar about being more professional in communication on the Linux kernel mailinglist last July. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/ 07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/ If you distance yourself a bit and just read everything, you'll find that there is some basic truth to both sides of the spectrum and it basically once again sums up to: we often forget how potty trained we are, even more so that there are different styles of potty around the world and
Re: [Wikitech-l] Latest Snowden docs MediaWiki
On 18 February 2014 07:45, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: ... The coverage I've read so far seems to suggest that he had legitimate access to the data and didn't exploit implementation details of the security system (Well the technical implementation. Arguably he exploited implementation weaknesses in the social structure that made him a trusted entity in the system with no checks against mass downloading). But again, who knows what really happened. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l This is the impression I had as well. Snowden's been described in various reports as a sysadmin, and supposedly had top secret clearance. As for the software, we already know about Intellipedia (intelligence community) [1], Bureaupedia (FBI) [2], and Diplopedia (State Department) [3] - all apparently using MediaWiki. So it doesn't surprise me that the NSA are using it too. Pete / the wub [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellipedia [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaupedia [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplopedia ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Latest Snowden docs MediaWiki
Le 18/02/2014 08:18, Philip Neustrom a écrit : The last details on their technical infrastructure indicated that Snowden used web crawler (love the quotes) software to obtain information from their internal wiki: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/us/snowden-used-low-cost-tool-to-best-nsa.html?hp Hello, From a usability point of view, I am wondering why he had to rely on a web crawler to export the whole Wiki as HTML. For those wondering, you could use: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DumpHTML maintenance script which generate a HTML version of your wiki for archival purposes https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Pdf_Book to assemble articles in a single document export as PDF. MediaWiki has Special:Export, but it only export Wikitext. cheers, -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Latest Snowden docs MediaWiki
On 18 February 2014 20:41, Antoine Musso hashar+...@free.fr wrote: Le 18/02/2014 08:18, Philip Neustrom a écrit : The last details on their technical infrastructure indicated that Snowden used web crawler (love the quotes) software to obtain information from their internal wiki: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/us/snowden-used-low-cost-tool-to-best-nsa.html?hp Hello, From a usability point of view, I am wondering why he had to rely on a web crawler to export the whole Wiki as HTML. For those wondering, you could use: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DumpHTML maintenance script which generate a HTML version of your wiki for archival purposes https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Pdf_Book to assemble articles in a single document export as PDF. MediaWiki has Special:Export, but it only export Wikitext. cheers, Because all the articles are just speculation? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Latest Snowden docs MediaWiki
On 18.02.2014, 14:51 K. wrote: On 18 February 2014 20:41, Antoine Musso hashar+...@free.fr wrote: From a usability point of view, I am wondering why he had to rely on a web crawler to export the whole Wiki as HTML. For those wondering, you could use: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DumpHTML maintenance script which generate a HTML version of your wiki for archival purposes https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Pdf_Book to assemble articles in a single document export as PDF. MediaWiki has Special:Export, but it only export Wikitext. cheers, Because all the articles are just speculation? Because he wasn't a sysadmin of that wiki? -- Best regards, Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]]) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
Derric Atzrott writes: Hi Derric, Have any of you ever heard of Non-Violent Communication (NVC). NVC is amazing and I very much encourage anyone to take it up. It goes way beyond a method of thinking, it is a spiritual path. Like other spiritual paths that means it may work if you practise it yourself. Also, there is no need whatsoever for others to practice NVC. If you do it yourself, benifits will follow. While you may inspire others, forcing your spiritual path onto them, or even suggesting they could do so, may trigger very strong reactions. A growing part of the Agile change management movement is adopting NVC, as it fits very well with techies. Google on NVC+Agile. Question for Derric: why didn't you formulate your suggestion using NVC? Greetings, Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Latest Snowden docs MediaWiki
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Philip Neustrom phi...@localwiki.orgwrote: The latest Snowden docs have some great screenshots of the NSA-internal MediaWiki installation Snowden is alleged to have obtained a lot of his material from: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/02/18/snowden-docs-reveal-covert-surveillance-and-pressure-tactics-aimed-at-wikileaks-and-its-supporters/ Looks like a static HTML dump, as a few of the external extension images haven't loaded. The last details on their technical infrastructure indicated that Snowden used web crawler (love the quotes) software to obtain information from their internal wiki: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/us/snowden-used-low-cost-tool-to-best-nsa.html?hp What's not mentioned in the NYT piece is that their MediaWiki instance likely didn't have any read-only ACLs set up, or if they did they were buggy (are any of the third-party ACL extensions good?) -- which was perhaps one reason why Snowden was able to access the entire site once he had any access at all? If you actually need fancy read restrictions to keep some of your own people from reading each others' writing, MediaWiki is not the right software for you. -brion. ..like, if you're a nation-state's intelligence agency, or something :P I think it's fascinating that this technical decision[1] by the MediaWiki team long ago may have had such an impact on the world! And much more fascinating that the NSA folks may not have read the docs. There's a good article about this on the Washington Post web site ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/02/10/how-the-911-commission-helped-edward-snowden/). The author argues that the choice of software that facilitates discovery and collaboration was deliberate, motivated by the 9/11 Commission Report, which attributed intelligence failures to lack of effective knowledge-sharing in the intelligence community. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] RFC on PHP profiling
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: I'm starting a new RFC to discuss ways we can improve our PHP profiling. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Better_PHP_profiling Please feel free to help expand and/or comment on the talk page if you've got ideas :) Apropos of wfProfileIn/Out: A tracing infrastructure that relies on active collaboration from application-level developers in order to function becomes extremely fragile, and is often broken due to instrumentation bugs or omissions, therefore violating the ubiquity requirement. This is especially important in a fast-paced development environment such as ours. From Dapper, a Large-Scale Distributed Systems Tracing Infrastructure http://research.google.com/pubs/pub36356.html It's a really cool paper. Here's how Dapper makes it possible to instrument Google's distributed infrastructure: * When a thread handles a traced control path, Dapper attaches a trace context to thread-local storage. A trace context is a small and easily copyable container of span attributes such as trace and span ids. * When computation is deferred or made asynchronous, most Google developers use a common control flow library to construct callbacks and schedule them in a thread pool or other executor. Dapper ensures that all such callbacks store the trace context of their creator, and this trace context is associated with the appropriate thread when the callback is invoked. In this way, the Dapper ids used for trace reconstruction are able to follow asynchronous control paths transparently. * Nearly all of Google’s inter-process communication is built around a single RPC framework with bindings in both C++ and Java. We have instrumented that framework to define spans around all RPCs. The span and trace ids are transmitted from client to server for traced RPCs. (cf pg 4) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] RFC on PHP profiling
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 7:02 AM, Ori Livneh o...@wikimedia.org wrote: A tracing infrastructure that relies on active collaboration from application-level developers in order to function becomes extremely fragile, and is often broken due to instrumentation bugs or omissions, therefore violating the ubiquity requirement. This is especially important in a fast-paced development environment such as ours. I tend to agree. I'm really not a big fan of wfProfileIn/wfProfileOut. Among it's many issues: - People often forget to call wfProfileOut (although this can be fixed by using ProfileSection) - It hurts readability (also can be fixed by ProfileSection, although only in cases where the entire function is being profiled) - It makes code completely dependent on MediaWiki, thus eliminating the possibility of separating code out into separate modules - It provides no more information than xhprof would (and yes, xhprof is meant for production use. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
I find it fascinating what a successful meme AGF is. I was so successfully indoctrinated by it during my first three years or so on en.wp that when I first encountered en.wn, where they explicitly reject AGF as intrinsically incompatible with news production, I wondered how they could possibly operate without it (this is after having wondered, when I first arrived at en.wp, how they could possibly function *with* it). For a few years I tried to satisfy both camps, with the idea that it was appropriate for Wikipedia but not for Wikinews. Eventually I've concluded that AGF has done huge damage to en.wp, creating a highly toxic culture there. The en.wn alternative is Never assume (which I'm realizing, more and more, is not just a code of social interaction, it's a philosophy of life). AGF, if taken literally by its name, advocates assuming something, which contributors to an information provider should never be encouraged to do. If taken the way it seems to be meant (per WP:ZEN), it teaches people to say something different than what you mean, also not good. And, AGF can be, and is, used successfully by people of bad faith to avoid responsibility for their own behavior and get their victims in trouble. I note thishttp://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html . Pi zero ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
Question for Derric: why didn't you formulate your suggestion using NVC? I was excited and in a hurry. In retrospect I really think that I should have. After reading some of the replies I felt rather disappointed and frustrated, and even a little sad as I didn't feel my need for understanding was met. In the future I will try to take a little more time writing emails to the list. I'm sorry to anyone who felt offended by it or felt that my email was, well, violent. That was not my intention at all. I just began myself looking into and trying to practice NVC in the past six months or so, and I am, as of now, still not terribly great at it. Again, I want to express my apologies, and I really hope that I didn't turn anyone off to the subject. I guess all I was really trying to say in that email is that when conversation on this list gets heated, I feel frustrated because my needs for calm and community are not met. I end up not wanting to participate because I don’t think that I will be heard or understood. I would like to request that people onlist look into strategies to help everyone get along, whether that is AGF, or NVC, or something else, does not matter as much to me. I suggested NVC because it has been a very useful tool for me in the past. Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
Thanks for a nice tasty bikeshed on a technical mailing list. I assume your good faith, and I foresee its consequences. You couldn't employ your NVC skills because you were, quote, in a hurry, end quote. That means, NVC just doesn't work when it's needed. I don't think everyone here has a lot of spare time to mix original thoughts with a dump of meaningless requests and pardons. You want to share how you feel? I don't think it's the right place to do this. Don't ask to ask, just ask, and so on. On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Derric Atzrott datzr...@alizeepathology.com wrote: Question for Derric: why didn't you formulate your suggestion using NVC? I was excited and in a hurry. In retrospect I really think that I should have. After reading some of the replies I felt rather disappointed and frustrated, and even a little sad as I didn't feel my need for understanding was met. In the future I will try to take a little more time writing emails to the list. I'm sorry to anyone who felt offended by it or felt that my email was, well, violent. That was not my intention at all. I just began myself looking into and trying to practice NVC in the past six months or so, and I am, as of now, still not terribly great at it. Again, I want to express my apologies, and I really hope that I didn't turn anyone off to the subject. I guess all I was really trying to say in that email is that when conversation on this list gets heated, I feel frustrated because my needs for calm and community are not met. I end up not wanting to participate because I don’t think that I will be heard or understood. I would like to request that people onlist look into strategies to help everyone get along, whether that is AGF, or NVC, or something else, does not matter as much to me. I suggested NVC because it has been a very useful tool for me in the past. Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- З павагай, Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Bugzilla Weekly Report
MediaWiki Bugzilla Report for February 11, 2014 - February 18, 2014
Status changes this week
Reports changed/set to UNCONFIRMED: 6
Reports changed/set to NEW: 34
Reports changed/set to ASSIGNED : 14
Reports changed/set to REOPENED : 11
Reports changed/set to PATCH_TO_RE: 63
Reports changed/set to RESOLVED : 313
Reports changed/set to VERIFIED : 4
Total reports still open : 13881
Total bugs still open : 8106
Total non-lowest prio. bugs still open: 7898
Total enhancements still open : 5775
Reports created this week: 307
Resolutions for the week:
Reports marked FIXED : 190
Reports marked DUPLICATE : 33
Reports marked INVALID : 21
Reports marked WORKSFORME: 42
Reports marked WONTFIX : 29
Specific Product/Component Resolutions User Metrics
Created reports per component
Tool Labs tools [other] 32
MediaWiki extensions Flow 18
VisualEditor Editing Tools 14
Wikimedia Bugzilla 13
Wikimedia Site requests 13
Created reports per product
MediaWiki extensions 84
Wikimedia 58
MediaWiki 46
VisualEditor 33
Tool Labs tools 32
Top 5 bug report closers
aklapper [AT] wikimedia.org 69
jforrester [AT] wikimedia.org 19
innocentkiller [AT] gmail.com 17
tomasz [AT] twkozlowski.net 14
zfilipin [AT] wikimedia.org 12
Most urgent open issues
Product | Component | BugID | Priority | LastChange | Assignee
| Summary
--
Analytics | Tech communit | 57038 | Highest | 2014-02-07 |
acs[AT]bitergia.com | Metrics about contributors with +2 pe
MediaWiki | Page editing | 61491 | Highest | 2014-02-18 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | no WikiEditor edit controls on any pa
MediaWiki ext | Diff | 58274 | Highest | 2014-01-22 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Implement an order-aware MapDiffer
MediaWiki ext | Echo | 53569 | Highest | 2014-02-10 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | [Regression] Echo: Sending 2 e-mails
MediaWiki ext | Flow | 58016 | Highest | 2014-02-04 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Flow: Suppression redacts the wrong u
MediaWiki ext | OAuth | 57336 | Highest | 2014-02-06 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Make metawiki the central OAuth wiki
MediaWiki ext | Translate | 60306 | Highest | 2014-02-03 |
ori[AT]wikimedia.org | TypeError: mw.uls is undefined on [[m
MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 58166 | Highest | 2013-12-09 |
wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | label/description uniqueness constrai
MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 57918 | Highest | 2014-01-13 |
wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | show diffs for sorting changes
MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 60127 | Highest | 2014-01-17 |
wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Implement DB schema for query indexes
MediaWiki ext | WikidataRepo | 52385 | Highest | 2014-02-03 |
wikidata-bugs[AT]lis | Query by one property and one value (
VisualEditor | Editing Tools | 50768 | Highest | 2014-02-03 |
tparscal[AT]wikimedi | VisualEditor: Implement a better vers
VisualEditor | MediaWiki int | 48429 | Highest | 2014-01-21 |
krinklemail[AT]gmail | VisualEditor: Support editing of sect
Wikimedia | Apache config | 31369 | Highest | 2014-01-20 |
bugzilla+org.wikimed | Non-canonical HTTPS URLs quietly redi
Wikimedia | Bugzilla | 61453 | Highest | 2014-02-18 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Bugzilla Weekly Report to wikitech-l[
Wikimedia | Mailing lists | 60215 | Highest | 2014-02-16 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Mails to any wikimedia.org account/li
Wikimedia | Site requests | 60323 | Highest | 2014-02-11 |
wikibugs-l[AT]lists. | Make ULS enabled by default for India
Wikimedia Lab | Infrastructur | 48501 | Highest | 2014-01-23 |
greg[AT]wikimedia.or | beta: Get SSL certificates for *.{pro
Re: [Wikitech-l] Bugzilla Weekly Report
On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Alex Monk kren...@gmail.com wrote: Filed as https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61453 On 17 February 2014 03:00, reporter repor...@kaulen.wikimedia.org wrote: MediaWiki Bugzilla Report for February 10, 2014 - February 17, 2014 Wikimedia Bugzilla report (FAILED), DB connection failure FAILED sorry, fixed: see here for the missed report i sent manually now: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-February/074555.html see Bug for details -- Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org Operations Engineer ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
I assume your good faith, and I foresee its consequences. You couldn't employ your NVC skills because you were, quote, in a hurry, end quote. That means, NVC just doesn't work when it's needed. I don't think everyone here has a lot of spare time to mix original thoughts with a dump of meaningless requests and pardons. You want to share how you feel? I don't think it's the right place to do this. Don't ask to ask, just ask, and so on. I think this and other responses to non-violent communication make a lot of sense. They're in line with the old quote First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. But this process takes years and we seem to be at the laugh and fight stage. I think violence is a particularly efficient way of getting what you want. Assume good faith is just a way to apologize in advance for employing violence. And honestly, I come from a culture where violence is a totally acceptable form of communication, and I'm a violent communicator. I creep myself out when I try to not be violent, but I recognize that much harmony would result from adopting the principles of NVC. Anyway I don't have any opinion on either side of this discussion, just wanted to point out that the responses are to be expected. And to say to Derric thank you, your post was not in vain and it did not turn me off to the subject. On the contrary, it made me admire that more people are willing to try it. On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Derric Atzrott datzr...@alizeepathology.com wrote: Question for Derric: why didn't you formulate your suggestion using NVC? I was excited and in a hurry. In retrospect I really think that I should have. After reading some of the replies I felt rather disappointed and frustrated, and even a little sad as I didn't feel my need for understanding was met. In the future I will try to take a little more time writing emails to the list. I'm sorry to anyone who felt offended by it or felt that my email was, well, violent. That was not my intention at all. I just began myself looking into and trying to practice NVC in the past six months or so, and I am, as of now, still not terribly great at it. Again, I want to express my apologies, and I really hope that I didn't turn anyone off to the subject. I guess all I was really trying to say in that email is that when conversation on this list gets heated, I feel frustrated because my needs for calm and community are not met. I end up not wanting to participate because I don’t think that I will be heard or understood. I would like to request that people onlist look into strategies to help everyone get along, whether that is AGF, or NVC, or something else, does not matter as much to me. I suggested NVC because it has been a very useful tool for me in the past. Thank you, Derric Atzrott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l -- З павагай, Павел Селіцкас/Pavel Selitskas Wizardist @ Wikimedia projects ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
That's interesting - my take on AGF always was that it was a way to avoid assumptions - another way of saying to give people the benefit of the doubt without being such a cliché (even though it's probably even more of one now). But yeah, good points. On 18/02/14 13:43, pi zero wrote: I find it fascinating what a successful meme AGF is. I was so successfully indoctrinated by it during my first three years or so on en.wp that when I first encountered en.wn, where they explicitly reject AGF as intrinsically incompatible with news production, I wondered how they could possibly operate without it (this is after having wondered, when I first arrived at en.wp, how they could possibly function *with* it). For a few years I tried to satisfy both camps, with the idea that it was appropriate for Wikipedia but not for Wikinews. Eventually I've concluded that AGF has done huge damage to en.wp, creating a highly toxic culture there. The en.wn alternative is Never assume (which I'm realizing, more and more, is not just a code of social interaction, it's a philosophy of life). AGF, if taken literally by its name, advocates assuming something, which contributors to an information provider should never be encouraged to do. If taken the way it seems to be meant (per WP:ZEN), it teaches people to say something different than what you mean, also not good. And, AGF can be, and is, used successfully by people of bad faith to avoid responsibility for their own behavior and get their victims in trouble. I note thishttp://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html . Pi zero ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
On 18 February 2014 16:34, Isarra Yos zhoris...@gmail.com wrote: That's interesting - my take on AGF always was that it was a way to avoid assumptions - another way of saying to give people the benefit of the doubt without being such a cliché (even though it's probably even more of one now). assume good faith makes more sense when you realise it's a nicer restatement of never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. It certainly doesn't mean assume correctness. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:48 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 February 2014 16:34, Isarra Yos zhoris...@gmail.com wrote: That's interesting - my take on AGF always was that it was a way to avoid assumptions - another way of saying to give people the benefit of the doubt without being such a cliché (even though it's probably even more of one now). assume good faith makes more sense when you realise it's a nicer restatement of never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. It certainly doesn't mean assume correctness. Indeed. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
summary: don't reply in a hurry or when you're pissed. Try not to piss off others and don't assume they just mean bad. Don't waste time. Stay on topic. Humans are still humans. Be nice. Try to do better tomorrow. Kthx. News? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing end of life. I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible. - Trevor [1] http://php.net/manual/en/migration54.new-features.php ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.orgwrote: PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing end of life. I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible. I'm in favor of bumping to a 5.4 minimum as well since 5.3 is approaching its end of life upstream. As I pointed out on IRC, the question is how quickly the distros will follow. Right now the current Ubuntu LTS has us stuck on 5.3.something. It looks like 14.04 will have 5.5.8 which is nice but not out until April :) -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.orgwrote: I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible. Agreed, but right now both Debian oldstable and Ubuntu LTS are running on PHP 5.3. I'm pretty sure (last time I checked) that both reach their EOL sometime this summer, like in July or something. Once that happens we can safely stop supporting 5.3 with the next MediaWiki release. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
and yes I see the paradox that I also just wrote that in a hurry and was a little frustrated because it honestly seemed to me like those things weren't new. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed. I'm just personally like: 'would rather do technical stuff.. too busy..'.. finding a balance between hostile environment and an overly regulated one without any kind of snark seems appropriate to me. On Feb 18, 2014 9:38 AM, Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org wrote: summary: don't reply in a hurry or when you're pissed. Try not to piss off others and don't assume they just mean bad. Don't waste time. Stay on topic. Humans are still humans. Be nice. Try to do better tomorrow. Kthx. News? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 09:51:25AM -0800, Chad wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.orgwrote: PHP 5.4 added a few important features[1], namely traits, shorthand array syntax, and function array dereferencing. I've heard that 5.3 is nearing end of life. I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible. I'm in favor of bumping to a 5.4 minimum as well since 5.3 is approaching its end of life upstream. As I pointed out on IRC, the question is how quickly the distros will follow. Right now the current Ubuntu LTS has us stuck on 5.3.something. It looks like 14.04 will have 5.5.8 which is nice but not out until April :) That is not actually the holdup (or if it is, it's a miscommunication and it shouldn't be). We can backport/build/maintain PHP packages ourselves. We, in fact, run our own 5.3 packages with some minor changes compared to precise's. Last time we were discussing PHP 5.4 it was quite a while ago but I remember hearing that we'd need to do some porting work for our extensions. Plus, we we re having a debate we were having about Suhosin that I don't think ended up anywhere :) However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources to move to PHP 5.4 right now. Faidon ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On 02/18/2014 01:10 PM, Faidon Liambotis wrote: However, last I heard, platform engineering is focusing on HHVM now instead, so I'm not sure if it actually makes sense to spend resources to move to PHP 5.4 right now. My understanding is that those are two orthogonal questions. I don't think we plan on demanding that external users all use HHVM to run Mediawiki, so the question which is the least version of PHP supported by core remains valid. -- Marc ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.orgwrote: I propose we drop support for PHP 5.3 soon, if possible. Agreed, but right now both Debian oldstable and Ubuntu LTS are running on PHP 5.3. I'm pretty sure (last time I checked) that both reach their EOL sometime this summer, like in July or something. Once that happens we can safely stop supporting 5.3 with the next MediaWiki release. Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu security team. Bryan -- Bryan Davis Wikimedia Foundationbd...@wikimedia.org [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]] Sr Software EngineerBoise, ID USA irc: bd808v:415.839.6885 x6855 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
+1 Balance is always the trick. On Feb 18, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org wrote: and yes I see the paradox that I also just wrote that in a hurry and was a little frustrated because it honestly seemed to me like those things weren't new. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed. I'm just personally like: 'would rather do technical stuff.. too busy..'.. finding a balance between hostile environment and an overly regulated one without any kind of snark seems appropriate to me. On Feb 18, 2014 9:38 AM, Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org wrote: summary: don't reply in a hurry or when you're pissed. Try not to piss off others and don't assume they just mean bad. Don't waste time. Stay on topic. Humans are still humans. Be nice. Try to do better tomorrow. Kthx. News? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
I'd even condense it further: If you are really pissed off by a mail, sleep over it before you reply. The more you are pissed off, the more let it settle for a while. This is even law in many places like in german, austrian or british armies: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milit%C3%A4rische_Nacht /Manuel -- Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
There are multiple readings of Assume Good Faith. I think pi zero was pointing out that it can be used to justify 'violent' communications. Oh, sure, it might seem like I just punched you in the nose, but you must AGF and respond as I were just trying to kill a mosquito that happened to have landed there. David Gerard's stupidity reading of AGF would be, ...respond as if you just clumsily knocked into my nose, since clumsiness is more common than malice. Both variants of the assumption can be abused by malicious actors. The problem in all societies is how to establish mutual trust; part of which requires protecting the society from malicious actors. AGF is only one part; it works to soothe common clumsiness while malicious actors need to be dealt with via other means. We shouldn't really evaluate it in isolation from the other mechanisms in our society It's certainly an interesting point that AGF excuses incivil conversation and puts the burden on the listener to compensate, which is a rather Torvalds-ian approach. But the linux-kernel mailing list seems to be WP:AGF without WP:CIVIL. WP:CIVIL puts the burden on the speaker. Balance! --scott -- (http://cscott.net) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
Il 18/02/2014 21:12, C. Scott Ananian ha scritto: There are multiple readings of Assume Good Faith. I think pi zero was pointing out that it can be used to justify 'violent' communications. Oh, sure, it might seem like I just punched you in the nose, but you must AGF and respond as I were just trying to kill a mosquito that happened to have landed there. David Gerard's stupidity reading of AGF would be, ...respond as if you just clumsily knocked into my nose, since clumsiness is more common than malice. Both variants of the assumption can be abused by malicious actors. The problem in all societies is how to establish mutual trust; part of which requires protecting the society from malicious actors. AGF is only one part; it works to soothe common clumsiness while malicious actors need to be dealt with via other means. We shouldn't really evaluate it in isolation from the other mechanisms in our society It's certainly an interesting point that AGF excuses incivil conversation and puts the burden on the listener to compensate, which is a rather Torvalds-ian approach. But the linux-kernel mailing list seems to be WP:AGF without WP:CIVIL. WP:CIVIL puts the burden on the speaker. Balance! --scott In my experience 50% of people asking to AGF'em are actually in bad faith :D Vito ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Vito vituzzu.w...@gmail.com wrote: In my experience 50% of people asking to AGF'em are actually in bad faith :D And I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps we should be focusing our attention on WP:CIVIL and other rules which are supposed to protect against malicious actors, not blaming WP:AGF for something it's not meant to do. --scott -- (http://cscott.net) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
Il 18/02/2014 21:26, C. Scott Ananian ha scritto: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Vito vituzzu.w...@gmail.com wrote: In my experience 50% of people asking to AGF'em are actually in bad faith :D And I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps we should be focusing our attention on WP:CIVIL and other rules which are supposed to protect against malicious actors, not blaming WP:AGF for something it's not meant to do. --scott Agree, also, generally speaking I think we should take ourselves less seriously since, setting apart from hired devs, that's just one of our hobbies. Vito ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
On Feb 18, 2014 4:12 PM, C. Scott Ananian canan...@wikimedia.org wrote: There are multiple readings of Assume Good Faith. I think pi zero was pointing out that it can be used to justify 'violent' communications. Oh, sure, it might seem like I just punched you in the nose, but you must AGF and respond as I were just trying to kill a mosquito that happened to have landed there. David Gerard's stupidity reading of AGF would be, ...respond as if you just clumsily knocked into my nose, since clumsiness is more common than malice. Both variants of the assumption can be abused by malicious actors. Well i agree with your point, i think malicious actors are pretty rare in our community. Submitting a (useful) patch is hard work. This cuts down on the number of trolls significantly. -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Design] Should MediaWiki CSS prefer non-free fonts?
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Steven Walling steven.wall...@gmail.comwrote: Even an *exceptionally* plain product like Gmail has a more specific font family setting than Vector does at the moment. And in Gmail, I and l look identical in the font that they chose. Often that doesn't matter, but sometimes it does and since they override it it's not as simple as configuring a better font in the browser (or not having to at all). And then there are the several ways they screw around with the normal browser behavior in these reply boxes that are usability issues for me: I can't Ctrl-PgUp or Ctrl-PgDn to switch tabs, I can't Shift-PgUp or Shift-PgDn to select large blocks of text, I have to always choose the Pop out reply because the scrolling is screwed up in the inline reply and I can't actually see the entirety of the input field, etc. So saying We're not as fancy as Gmail doesn't sound like a very compelling argument to me. -- Brad Jorsch (Anomie) Software Engineer Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Design] Should MediaWiki CSS prefer non-free fonts?
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:19 PM, Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.orgwrote: and we got very specific negative feedback about [placing free fonts first] on the Talk page. You also got very specific positive feedback about placing free fonts first, and very specific negative feedback about specifying anything other than sans-serif. But you seem to have ignored that feedback. I think the problem is that you've defined Helvetica Neue as what you want, so nothing else is good enough. -- Brad Jorsch (Anomie) Software Engineer Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Meetings vs mailing list (Re: Should MediaWiki CSS prefer non-free fonts?)
David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: I made the offer for an in-person conversation because I think I can provide our office conversations with a healthy dose of Helvetica Neueh skepticism, and I suspect Brad will be relieved that it won't be all on him to defend his viewpoint. I also suspect you and I may be reasonably well-aligned on this issue, too. Yeah, sorry for snapping. I realise that a lot more gets done at high bandwidth, I worry that this can achieve local consensus that just happens to treat principles that may be important to others as disposable. I did get a whiff of the interaction as it happens visiting in December, even if I was mostly in the 6th-floor land of infuriating intangibles rather than the 3rd-floor land of things that work or don't. I apologise for my frustration. +1. In a physical meeting, there is higher bandwith, but a lot of the payload can be pity, intimidation, nobody leaves before we have an agreement, etc. Tim ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Design] Should MediaWiki CSS prefer non-free fonts?
On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Steven Walling steven.wall...@gmail.comwrote: Even an *exceptionally* plain product like Gmail has a more specific font family setting than Vector does at the moment. And in Gmail, I and l look identical in the font that they chose. Often that doesn't matter, but sometimes it does and since they override it it's not as simple as configuring a better font in the browser (or not having to at all). And then there are the several ways they screw around with the normal browser behavior in these reply boxes that are usability issues for me: I can't Ctrl-PgUp or Ctrl-PgDn to switch tabs, I can't Shift-PgUp or Shift-PgDn to select large blocks of text, I have to always choose the Pop out reply because the scrolling is screwed up in the inline reply and I can't actually see the entirety of the input field, etc. So saying We're not as fancy as Gmail doesn't sound like a very compelling argument to me. While I have been following the conversation (or trying to) Brad's comments about '1' versus 'l' hits a sore point for the Wikisources. As the Wikisources are working often working with texts that have been OCR'd, the easy visual ability to differentiate between similar looking characters is very important. To note that I know _not_ the difference between web fonts, which bits are downloaded, uploaded or whatever, and while it is presumably quite fascinating, it is the right output and outcomes that are pertinent for me, and the community in which I am involved. Characters needs to be individual and clear, and for there to be a diverse character set of characters (roman/greek/...) are used in the printing industry, especially in the 19th and early 20th century printing industry. Regards, Billinghurst ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Non-Violent Communication
On 18 February 2014 20:26, C. Scott Ananian canan...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Vito vituzzu.w...@gmail.com wrote: In my experience 50% of people asking to AGF'em are actually in bad faith :D And I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps we should be focusing our attention on WP:CIVIL and other rules which are supposed to protect against malicious actors, not blaming WP:AGF for something it's not meant to do. I'm really nice in person, I'm just terrible on line. Pity where I spend most of my life ... - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] How to Contribute Page - More Specific and User Friendly
Hi Harsh, On 02/17/2014 08:46 AM, Harsh Kothari wrote: Hi Understanding how to contribute in MediaWiki is essential to new bees. Here is the MediaWiki page : https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_contribute I found very interesting thing for Mozilla : http://www.whatcanidoformozilla.org/ This is very useful stuff with localised in many languages. Can we do the same thing by converting our How to contribute page into some interesting way and user friendly so that new contributors may find very easy way to kick start. Two ideas there 1. Create Extension 2. Separate Website (I guess Yuvi has already bought Domain whatcanidoforwikimedia) 3. Guided Tours See the long discussion we had some time ago at http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-April/068166.html If this idea is good then it may become GSOC project. It is an interesting project for a newcomer, yes. However, regardless of the technical approach it requires more copy writing and design than coding. I don't think it qualifies as a GSoC project, but it could be an OPW candidate, especially if we include polishing the landing pages we point to with such tool/site. -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC 2014 Project
Hi Shubham, On 02/16/2014 10:50 AM, shubham singhal wrote: I have ideas to improve and excel interest in lay people in Gene wiki* by including the short interesting video based learning which takes the data from Wikimedia and create a short video which helps the people to understand easily. I need a help to work on this.* In this approach I would like to implement mechanism in which long paragraphs will be extracted from geneWiki and organized in a way that can be shown as pictures or frame of pictures. Through this mechanism people would be able to learn easily because pictures or videos are remembered more easily. Are you referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Gene_Wiki ? The first step for a proposal like this is to get the buy-in from the project maintainers. If they are also interested in your proposal and they can provide at least one mentor, then we can continue seeing the possibilities of this proposal. I agree with Brian that a draft in a wiki page (for instance a subpage of your user page at mediawiki.org) will help you getting your point across and finding potential mentors. Thank you for your interest in contriguting to Wikimedia. -- Quim Gil Technical Contributor Coordinator @ Wikimedia Foundation http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Bryan Davis bd...@wikimedia.org wrote: Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu security team. OK, so Ubuntu Server LTS will EOL in April 2017. Additionally, MediaWiki 1.23 LTS (our next release) is planned to EOL in May 2017. With that in mind, I think it's fair to say that once 1.23 is released we will have the opportunity to increase our PHP requirement. I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd definitely use: - Array literals - $this support in closures - Class member access based on expression - Class member access after instantiation - Function return value array dereferencing - The JsonSerializable interface - Improved parse_url() behavior Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits everywhere. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Bryan Davis bd...@wikimedia.org wrote: Ubuntu Server LTS versions have 5 years of support, so 12.04 will not be EOL until April of 2017. PHP 5.3 will be EOL in July of 2014. I'm sure that 3 year difference will be a major pain point for the Ubuntu security team. OK, so Ubuntu Server LTS will EOL in April 2017. Additionally, MediaWiki 1.23 LTS (our next release) is planned to EOL in May 2017. With that in mind, I think it's fair to say that once 1.23 is released we will have the opportunity to increase our PHP requirement. I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd definitely use: - Array literals - $this support in closures - Class member access based on expression - Class member access after instantiation - Function return value array dereferencing - The JsonSerializable interface - Improved parse_url() behavior Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits everywhere. +1 on making the break in 1.24. I actually have a note on my desktop reminding me to write an RFC on that very topic. We should wait to see but I'm guessing we can skip right over 5.4 and move up to 5.5 when we drop 5.3 support. Bryan -- Bryan Davis Wikimedia Foundationbd...@wikimedia.org [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]] Sr Software EngineerBoise, ID USA irc: bd808v:415.839.6885 x6855 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Drop support for PHP 5.3
On 2014-02-18 4:41 PM, Tyler Romeo wrote:
I strongly recommend we do so. A list of nice things about 5.4 that we'd
definitely use:
- Array literals
- $this support in closures
- Class member access based on expression
- Class member access after instantiation
- Function return value array dereferencing
- The JsonSerializable interface
- Improved parse_url() behavior
Of course there is traits as well, but that's more of an actual new
feature, and it will be a while before MediaWiki starts using traits
everywhere.
*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
Actually we'll have even more uses for PHP 5.4:
- ?= ? in skins instead of ?php echo ? where we do do that.
- No more need for safe_mode checks
- We can kill our register_global checks in WebStart.php
- No more magic_quotes_gpc handling in WebRequestk
But also we do already have a use for traits, RequestContext.
We extend from ContextSource because we can't currently use a
TContextSource trait.
This is fine for the classes that have no parent class but we've run
into classes that already have prior obligations.
In those instances some code duplication has been necessary.
^_^ With traits we can redefine the ContextSource class as the following
and make anything duplicating ContextSource code use a trait.
class ContextSource implements IContextSource {
use TContextSource;
}
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://danielfriesen.name/]
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[Wikitech-l] Thoughts on hiding text from the internal search
Hi, I'm curious how people would go about hiding text from the internal MediaWiki search engine (not external robots). Right now I'm thinking of doing a rather naïve .nosearch class that would be stripped before indexing. I can see potentials for abuse though. Does anyone have any bright ideas? -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] How to Contribute Page - More Specific and User Friendly
Good goals but I think you're doing several things wrong here.
1) Attempts to pose this as an external tool. Not many people who visit the
wiki will ever learn about the external website. You're effectively opening a
new contributors influx channel while not making the life of people who reached
Wikimedia project as readers much easier; they still lack orientation as to
what they can do for a project.
2) Excessive focus on the getting in part of the contributor life-cycle.
There really is too much routine in editing articles today and it hinders
current work by making things too complicated, slow, unintuitive. I tend to
encourage focus on the I am editing, but it is inefficient part of the work.
It is very very very under-developed.
As such I would encourage that you look at the wiki layout and editing tools
closer and come up with something, like a user dashboard perhaps, with 3
sections ('my tools - prefs, watchlist', 'my pages - user page, talk page,
contribs', 'getting started - whatever you fancy here').
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Thoughts on hiding text from the internal search
Chad wrote: I'm curious how people would go about hiding text from the internal MediaWiki search engine (not external robots). Right now I'm thinking of doing a rather naïve .nosearch class that would be stripped before indexing. I can see potentials for abuse though. Does anyone have any bright ideas? It's difficult to offer advice without knowing why you're trying to do what it is you're trying to do. You've described a potential solution, but I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve. Are there some example use-cases or perhaps there's a relevant bug in Bugzilla? MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Using Special page transclusion as a rudimentary API in Scribunto/Lua modules
Hi.
While I certainly appreciate the creativity, the developing trend of using
Special page transclusion as a rudimentary API in Scribunto/Lua modules is
worrying and, in my opinion, should be addressed soon.
Examples (using {{Special:ListFiles/}} and {{Special:PrefixIndex/}},
respectively):
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Module:MyUploads
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/110218872
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Module:Subpages
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/5416155
There are likely others. What can be done to address this issue?
MZMcBride
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Thoughts on hiding text from the internal search
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:50 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Chad wrote: I'm curious how people would go about hiding text from the internal MediaWiki search engine (not external robots). Right now I'm thinking of doing a rather naïve .nosearch class that would be stripped before indexing. I can see potentials for abuse though. Does anyone have any bright ideas? It's difficult to offer advice without knowing why you're trying to do what it is you're trying to do. You've described a potential solution, but I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve. Are there some example use-cases or perhaps there's a relevant bug in Bugzilla? Ah, here's the bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60484 -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Using Special page transclusion as a rudimentary API in Scribunto/Lua modules
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 1:26 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: There are likely others. What can be done to address this issue? Only way I can think of is to improve the Lua - PHP API so that users can make the queries directly. *-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Design] Should MediaWiki CSS prefer non-free fonts?
An apropos link from daringfireball today: http://www.jordanm.co.uk/tinytype lists the available 'system fonts' on iOS/Android/Windows Phone/Blackberry. For communication purposes, it would be great to fork it ( https://github.com/jordanmoore/tinytype) and add the available default system fonts on Mac OS, Window 7/8, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. (Then the only missing piece would be the font-mapping information, so you could tell what font the string serif or Helvetica (say) is mapped to on the various platforms.) --scott ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
