Re: [Wikitech-l] Proposal for editing template calls within pages
I like the XML way of resolving this problem but I think it MediaWiki has a bigger task to do. Restructure the wiki language, XML-ize the language completely. Forms and attributes will have a place in this WikiXML-definition. Pages can be constructed from one or more XML-sources. XML-source, or a transformed version of it, can be used on more than one page. 'Extensions' will be (sub)-elements of the standard MediaWiki definition. Recursive tasks can be done as long as the definition allows it. We are not depending on the MW-parser as is. Easier construction of editors. Use of XML-stylesheets for presentation. etc. non-realistic? May be. In my vision the only way to make a real difference. If this is a first step towards structuring the language than I think its ok. Andre Op 23 sep 2009, om 20:24 heeft Yaron Koren het volgende geschreven: Hi everyone, Part of the Wikipedia Usability Initiative is a project to create a system whereby template calls are hidden (minimized, really) for most users on the edit page, and when users do want to edit template calls, they can do so via a form instead of editing the template call directly. I'm involved with that project; my previous experience with such matters was creating the Semantic Forms extension, which is similar in its basic concept. I've put together a page explaining the current thinking on how the system should work, here: http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_forms We're looking for feedback; any thoughts or questions are welcome, either on that page's talk page or by responding to this email. Thanks, Yaron ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
Handling of the wikitext uses a markup definition file. Application handles all elements configured in this file. Elements not recognised are presented as the original wikitext. So all elements can be used but then of cours not presented as wysiwyg. This means you can edit simple but also complex wikitext. Switching to other wiki-platforms can be done relative easy by simply changing the tags in de defintion file. Application acts now as an addon to the standard MW functionality. It reads the textarea in the html given by MW editpage, returns again wikitext to this textarea after editing and save to wikitext button. The base functionality of MW stays intact. Template inclusion for example, will need some more conversation between the editor and the MWserver but again this must be possible. Properties for semantic mediawiki inline queries can be made more userfriendly by directly showing results (or errors), etc.. It is exciting to see how easy it is to add new alike elements but also a big challenge to fit in new ones in a way that is flexible and reusable. It is this combination that gives me the pleasure doing this thing. I like this manner of developing. Discovering the posibilities of new technics like Flex. It must be a combination of building the engine and making the chairs comfortable. Right now I am wrestling with fonts in Flex/TLF for a good presentation. After that I switch back to the engine. Thanks for your reaction. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 12:04 heeft Mark Clements (HappyDog) het volgende geschreven: 'd be interested to see how far you get with this. The problem is not the interface - that is relatively easy even using HTML/JS, so creating a slick interface in Flash should be trivial. The problem is in correctly handling the more complicated elements of the wikitext markup, and round- tripping between your internal representation and that markup without losing information. If I were you, I would concentrate on that firstly, and then work on the editing UI, otherwise you'll end up with something that looks good and works nicely for simple pages, but is too dangerous to deploy as it risks messing up anything more sophisticated. Here are some of the trickier elements for you to look into so you don't end up just wasting your time (in no particular order): * Tables * Template inclusion * Parser functions * Magic words (including ISBN, etc.) * Comments * Category links * Extension-supplied HTML-style tags. For a relatively complete list, and some exploration of the problems, see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec. - Mark Clements (HappyDog) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
Yes, I did see this. Template is not configured yet. I did configure swm ask wich has the same end tag ' }}'. A bug wich I will correct in the engine. Comment configuration is easy but howto present in wysiwg? Hidden property? Do you have an idea? My plan is to make a testapplication which calls the editcomponent for different wikitext files and compares the result with goodresult- files. One push on the button will give the answer if changes is the engine are ok. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 14:30 heeft Mark Clements (HappyDog) het volgende geschreven: apri a.vd.wiel a.vd.w...@apri.nl wrote in message news:e7eebf75-8452-48bb-8479-db449aaba...@apri.nl... Handling of the wikitext uses a markup definition file. Application handles all elements configured in this file. Elements not recognised are presented as the original wikitext. So all elements can be used but then of cours not presented as wysiwyg. This means you can edit simple but also complex wikitext. Switching to other wiki-platforms can be done relative easy by simply changing the tags in de defintion file. Good idea in principle. Currently doesn't cleanly round-trip, e.g. http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php?title=Main_Pageaction=editoldid=25 (compare text in standard edit box before and after clicking 'save to wikitext'). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about... :-) - Mark Clements (HappyDog) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
comments and template added. single ''' gives error : more or less the same bug as mentioned before with smw ask. Some engine work to do ;-) '''how about ''this edit'''s more complicated bold/italic markup?''' Do you think MW gives the right result? MW: 'how about this edits more complicated bold/italic markup? Apri: how about this edits more complicated bold/italic markup? should be (I think): how about this edit's more complicated bold/ italic markup? Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 14:52 heeft apri a.vd.wiel het volgende geschreven: Yes, I did see this. Template is not configured yet. I did configure swm ask wich has the same end tag ' }}'. A bug wich I will correct in the engine. Comment configuration is easy but howto present in wysiwg? Hidden property? Do you have an idea? My plan is to make a testapplication which calls the editcomponent for different wikitext files and compares the result with goodresult- files. One push on the button will give the answer if changes is the engine are ok. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 14:30 heeft Mark Clements (HappyDog) het volgende geschreven: apri a.vd.wiel a.vd.w...@apri.nl wrote in message news:e7eebf75-8452-48bb-8479-db449aaba...@apri.nl... Handling of the wikitext uses a markup definition file. Application handles all elements configured in this file. Elements not recognised are presented as the original wikitext. So all elements can be used but then of cours not presented as wysiwyg. This means you can edit simple but also complex wikitext. Switching to other wiki-platforms can be done relative easy by simply changing the tags in de defintion file. Good idea in principle. Currently doesn't cleanly round-trip, e.g. http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php?title=Main_Pageaction=editoldid=25 (compare text in standard edit box before and after clicking 'save to wikitext'). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about... :-) - Mark Clements (HappyDog) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
I see there is no formating (bold and italic) in the message. But for this case my conclusion is: MW formatting is (also) not correct. The markup spec says: Note that improper nesting of bold and italics is currently permitted. Which means that the formatting can't be correct in all cases. The markup spec must be more strict. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 16:42 heeft apri a.vd.wiel het volgende geschreven: comments and template added. single ''' gives error : more or less the same bug as mentioned before with smw ask. Some engine work to do ;-) '''how about ''this edit'''s more complicated bold/italic markup?''' Do you think MW gives the right result? MW: 'how about this edits more complicated bold/italic markup? Apri: how about this edits more complicated bold/italic markup? should be (I think): how about this edit's more complicated bold/ italic markup? Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 14:52 heeft apri a.vd.wiel het volgende geschreven: Yes, I did see this. Template is not configured yet. I did configure swm ask wich has the same end tag ' }}'. A bug wich I will correct in the engine. Comment configuration is easy but howto present in wysiwg? Hidden property? Do you have an idea? My plan is to make a testapplication which calls the editcomponent for different wikitext files and compares the result with goodresult- files. One push on the button will give the answer if changes is the engine are ok. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 14:30 heeft Mark Clements (HappyDog) het volgende geschreven: apri a.vd.wiel a.vd.w...@apri.nl wrote in message news:e7eebf75-8452-48bb-8479-db449aaba...@apri.nl... Handling of the wikitext uses a markup definition file. Application handles all elements configured in this file. Elements not recognised are presented as the original wikitext. So all elements can be used but then of cours not presented as wysiwyg. This means you can edit simple but also complex wikitext. Switching to other wiki-platforms can be done relative easy by simply changing the tags in de defintion file. Good idea in principle. Currently doesn't cleanly round-trip, e.g. http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php?title=Main_Pageaction=editoldid=25 (compare text in standard edit box before and after clicking 'save to wikitext'). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about... :-) - Mark Clements (HappyDog) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
Thanks you all for your thoughts. Helps me great to make up my mind about all kinds of things. I realize that there is more than one person can oversee. I also have much respect for what mediawiki stands for and where they are now. My thoughts: If there is a way out, it must be via standardization. I also realize that my contribution to this list ends here. If I have other ideas to overcome this problem I let you know ;-) Thanks for your attention and contributions. Andre Op 11 mei 2009, om 17:05 heeft Daniel Kinzler het volgende geschreven: This sucks, but in the four years we have spend talking abotu it, no one found a way out that will not break a few million existing wiki pages. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
Ok. options: a. we wait for Adobe to make this format opensource ;-) b. we let the end-user chose (no forcing). I know still in conflict with the mission but This example/prototype wiki editor is developed in a way that makes integration with MW sites easy. It can be used by ' simple' wikiusers and wiki-language experts so it will be used I think. When the editor component has enough functionality and is stable enough, it can be integrated in some kind of wikiclient / desktop application. And as you can guess a lot of RIA functionality will then be available. Then no forcing and relative independent from MW development. I am floating on my dream and still see beautifull things in the near future.. Thanks for your reactions. Andre Op 8 mei 2009, om 11:35 heeft David Gerard het volgende geschreven: 2009/5/8 ChrisiPK chris...@gmail.com: This means we will probably not see this enabled on WMF sites. Flash is a proprietary format. Forcing users to install this is in conflict with Wikimedia's mission to spread open file formats and software. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Disrespecting_freedom_of_the_web Yes, but (a) other MediaWiki sites welcome Flash (b) it's interesting as an example implementation of WYSIWYG, as we try to crack the problem. Given (a), mediawiki-l is probably the list for it. - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
I am confused. - swf format is not a problem - flex application is not a problem, there is a open source flex sdk. all source is editable with texteditor (flex:mx and actionscript) problems(?): - runtime plugin must be free (flash 10 is) and must be open so it can be modified? (can we modify IE?) - flex compiler must be free (the sdk is) and must be open so it can be modified? (can we modify javac?) - patents are a problem? I am also not a license expert, i like to create a great application . If the MediaWiki organisation can give me a clear yes or no to use flex/swf in MW I would be very pleased. If not, I have to change my plans. Greetings, Andre Op 8 mei 2009, om 20:25 heeft Brian het volgende geschreven: Ok, but is there one that supports the features found in Gnash? Isn't flash a language specification, and doesn't Gnash have an emacs mode? On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Amir Elisha Aharoni amir.ahar...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 21:11, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Amir Elisha Aharoni amir.ahar...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 20:26, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: There is nothing bad about the flash format. If it works in a free player I'm not aware of any other objections. *If* it actually works, then there's still at least one more problem: It should be possible to modify this plugin using Free tools. Adobe's own Flash authoring tool is not Free. This may not seem relevant to users, but people need to have a reasonable way to use a program without being deprived of Freedoms #1 and #3 of Free Software. (See [[Free_software#Definition]] in Wikipedia.) Are you really addressing a deficit in Gnash, or some hypothetical situation? Gnash is a *player*, a Free replacement for Adobe Flash *Player*. It works pretty well as a player, but it is not supposed to be an authoring tool. There are certain Free Flash authoring tools, but to the best of my knowledge there is no complete replacement for Adobe Flash, the authoring tool. -- אמיר אלישע אהרוני heb: http://haharoni.wordpress.com | eng: http:// aharoni.wordpress.com cat: http://aprenent.wordpress.com | rus: http://amire80.livejournal.com We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace. - T. Moore ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
The answer is no if I may speak for mediawiki. for example the gnash is only usable with mozilla derived browsers. Andre Op 8 mei 2009, om 21:28 heeft Aryeh Gregor het volgende geschreven: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Brion Vibber br...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd just like to get this thread back on track with a couple notes. 1) Wikimedia will not be interested in an editing widget based entirely on Flash. Even if it's designed to work perfectly in gnash? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
Hello to all, I am developing Apri wiki editor and at this moment have a what I call a working prototype which I want to share with you. Still a lot of work to do but I like the results so far ;-). Functionality is very basic but shows enough to give you an impression. UI is not what the end result will look like but I'm still looking for the right design in combination with functionality. Please see http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php/Main_Page Read the page. Click the edit button and see what happens. Greetings, Andre ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
It needs flash 10. Andre Op 7 mei 2009, om 22:11 heeft Brion Vibber het volgende geschreven: El 5/7/09 12:18 PM, apri a.vd.wiel escribió: Hello to all, I am developing Apri wiki editor and at this moment have a what I call a working prototype which I want to share with you. Still a lot of work to do but I like the results so far ;-). Functionality is very basic but shows enough to give you an impression. UI is not what the end result will look like but I'm still looking for the right design in combination with functionality. Please see http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php/Main_Page Read the page. Click the edit button and see what happens. It asks me to install Flash Player 10, then dies when I say no. -- brion ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Wiki editor wysiwyg
As I mentioned this is a prototype. UI has to be redesigned but what you see (better: what you will see) at the left are the properties of the tags/text which are focused. This will be the place to fill in the url property of the link tag. At the right you will find the actions you can do on the selection in the text. Andre Op 7 mei 2009, om 22:35 heeft Chad het volgende geschreven: On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM, apri a.vd.wiel a.vd.w...@apri.nl wrote: Hello to all, I am developing Apri wiki editor and at this moment have a what I call a working prototype which I want to share with you. Still a lot of work to do but I like the results so far ;-). Functionality is very basic but shows enough to give you an impression. UI is not what the end result will look like but I'm still looking for the right design in combination with functionality. Please see http://ria.apri.nl/mediawiki-1.14.0/index.php/Main_Page Read the page. Click the edit button and see what happens. Greetings, Andre ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l I have flash player installed, and I didn't understand what to do. I saw a few boxes to the left and right, but nothing in them made sense. I pressed add a link, but I didn't see any way to control the target of the link or what the link text says. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
