[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct Committee -- call for new members

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello all,

The Code of Conduct Committee is a team of five trusted individuals (plus
five auxiliary members) with diverse affiliations responsible for general
enforcement of the Code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces.
Committee members are in charge of processing complaints, discussing with
the parties affected, agreeing on resolutions, and following up on their
enforcement. For more on their duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee.

This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.

The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term, they
will publish their candidate slate (a list of candidates) on-wiki. The
community can provide feedback on these candidates, via private email to
the group choosing the next Committee. The feedback period will be two
weeks. The current Committee will then either finalize the slate, or update
the candidate slate in response to concerns raised. If the candidate slate
changes, there will be another two week feedback period covering the newly
proposed members. After the selections are finalized, there will be a
training period, after which the new Committee is appointed. The current
Committee continues to serve until the feedback, selection, and training
process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or main member of the
committee. The committee consists of five main members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for a year; all applications are appreciated
and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications is *the end
of day on June 25, 2024*.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.

Best,
Amir Sarabadani, on behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct Committee -- call for new members

[Martin Urbanec]

Hello all,

The Code of Conduct Committee is a team of five trusted individuals (plus
five auxiliary members) with diverse affiliations responsible for general
enforcement of the Code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces.
Committee members are in charge of processing complaints, discussing with
the parties affected, agreeing on resolutions, and following up on their
enforcement. For more on their duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee.

This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.

The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning July 16, 2023, they will publish their candidate slate (a list of
candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or main member of the
committee. The committee consists of five main members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for a year; all applications are appreciated
and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications is *the end
of day on May 31 2023*.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.

Best,
Martin Urbanec, on behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct Committee – call for new members

[Martin Urbanec]

 Hello all,

It's coming close to the time for annual appointments of community members
to serve on the Code of Conduct committee (CoCC). The Code of Conduct
Committee is a team of five trusted individuals (plus five auxiliary
members) with diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of
the Code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are
in charge of processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected,
agreeing on resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on
their duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee.

This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.

The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning 07 May 2022, they will publish their candidate slate (a list of
candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or main member of the
committee. The committee consists of five main members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for a year; all applications are appreciated
and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications is *the end
of day on 30 April 2022*.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.

Best,

Martin Urbanec, on behalf of the Code of Conduct Committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello all,

It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct Committee
is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary members with
diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of the Code of
conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are in charge of
processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected, agreeing on
resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on their
duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee

This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.

The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning 9 April 2021, they will publish their candidate slate (a list of
candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or constant member of the
committee. The committee consists of five members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for a year; all applications are appreciated
and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications is the end
of day on 26 March 2021.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.

Best,
Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[RhinosF1 -]

Good luck to all applicants!

Samuel

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 21:24, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> Hello,
> Here's reminder that you have one day to send us your candidacy.
>
> Serving at the committee would help the technical community foster a
> hospital and welcoming environment for everyone. Join and help us!
>
> Best
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 5:09 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
> > serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct
> > Committee is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary
> > members with diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of
> > the Code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are
> > in charge of processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected,
> > agreeing on resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more
> on
> > their duties and roles, see
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee
> >
> > This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
> > appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
> > experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
> > position before.
> >
> >
> >
> > The current committee is doing the selection and will research and
> discuss
> > candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
> > meaning 27th of April 2019, they will publish their candidate slate (a
> > list of candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
> > candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee.
> The
> > feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
> > finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
> > raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
> > feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
> > are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
> > Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until
> the
> > feedback, selection, and training process is complete.
> >
> > If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
> > candidate, please write an email to *techconductcandidates** AT
> > wikimedia.org * with details of your experience on
> > the projects, your thoughts on the code of conduct and the committee and
> > what you hope to bring to the role and whether you have a preference in
> > being auxiliary or constant member of the committee. The committee
> > consists of five members plus five auxiliary members and they will serve
> > for a year; all applications are appreciated and will be carefully
> > considered. The deadline for applications is end of day on 19th of April,
> > 2020.
> >
> > Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
> > may be qualified and interested.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
> >
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> ___
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- 
Thanks,
Samuel
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello,
Here's reminder that you have one day to send us your candidacy.

Serving at the committee would help the technical community foster a
hospital and welcoming environment for everyone. Join and help us!

Best

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 5:09 PM Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
> serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct
> Committee is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary
> members with diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of
> the Code of conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are
> in charge of processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected,
> agreeing on resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on
> their duties and roles, see
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee
>
> This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
> appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
> experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
> position before.
>
>
>
> The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
> candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
> meaning 27th of April 2019, they will publish their candidate slate (a
> list of candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
> candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
> feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
> finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
> raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
> feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
> are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
> Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
> feedback, selection, and training process is complete.
>
> If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
> candidate, please write an email to *techconductcandidates** AT
> wikimedia.org * with details of your experience on
> the projects, your thoughts on the code of conduct and the committee and
> what you hope to bring to the role and whether you have a preference in
> being auxiliary or constant member of the committee. The committee
> consists of five members plus five auxiliary members and they will serve
> for a year; all applications are appreciated and will be carefully
> considered. The deadline for applications is end of day on 19th of April,
> 2020.
>
> Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
> may be qualified and interested.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
>


-- 
Amir (he/him)
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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello all,

It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct Committee
is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary members with
diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of the Code of
conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are in charge of
processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected, agreeing on
resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on their
duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee

This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.



The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning 27th of April 2019, they will publish their candidate slate (a list
of candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to *techconductcandidates** AT
wikimedia.org * with details of your experience on
the projects, your thoughts on the code of conduct and the committee and
what you hope to bring to the role and whether you have a preference in
being auxiliary or constant member of the committee. The committee consists
of five members plus five auxiliary members and they will serve for a year;
all applications are appreciated and will be carefully considered. The
deadline for applications is end of day on 19th of April, 2020.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.


Best,

Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct committee meeting at Wikimania

[Pine W]

+1 on the thanks for the update.

I have some ideas regarding modifications that I would like to propose to
the CoC but I am already stretched among too many tasks, so I am holding
these proposals. I do not want anarchy in technical spaces, and in general
I think that having some version of a code of conduct is good.

I am not sure whether Fae is referring to the chronological age of the
Committee as an organization or to the ages of its human members, though I
think that Fae is referring to the former. Regarding the latter, I'll make
a few comments. I am not very concerned regarding the chronological age of
committee members provided that they have reached the age of majority in
their relevant countries. I am more interested in language skills, publicly
reviewable experience and training in dispute resolution, understanding of
Wikimedia technical processes, emotional temperaments, listening skills,
reading comprehension, writing skills, research skills, demonstrated
willingness to make unpopular decisions (unpopular with WMF and/or
unpopular with a significant minority of community members), and degrees of
affiliation with WMF and the community.

Onward,

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )


On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 14:04 Fæ  wrote:

> Thanks for the update. It's great to see the CoC processes improving
> transparency and potentially accountability to the community.
>
> It's worth noting how old the discussions are, with comments dating
> back more than a year ago, especially in the context of how relatively
> young the committee and the CoC is. Perhaps the members can discuss
> with each other how improvements can be implemented and iterated more
> manageably?
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2019 at 21:25, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > The CoC committee had a meeting with four members out of five (Lucie,
> Tony,
> > Tonina, and Amir were at Wikimania and MusikAnimal wasn't present). These
> > notes are the public outcomes of the meeting.
> >
> > * The committee chose Amir as the chair (Amir requested to be the table
> but
> > it got rejected)
> > * The committee is currently composing the anonymized report of its cases
> > and will be published soon.
> > * The committee soon will decide on the two amendments currently under
> > discussion. Feel free to comment on these two:
> > ** Public logging of bans:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uikcu1emvmw6e4z8
> > ** Modifications on the appeal process:
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uay0vz6no8ayac3m
> > * The committee is willing to introduce a new internal role which for
> lack
> > of better term, we call it secretary for now. The role's main
> > responsibility is to help the committee on organizational bookkeeping.
> Like
> > reports, documentation of cases, etc.
> > * At the end, the committee wants to remind people that its role is
> > reactionary and we won't interfere when there's no report. If you see a
> > behaviour you find unacceptable, stand up and send us a report and don't
> > wait for the committee to jump in.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Amir on behalf of the committee
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct committee meeting at Wikimania

[Fæ]

Thanks for the update. It's great to see the CoC processes improving
transparency and potentially accountability to the community.

It's worth noting how old the discussions are, with comments dating
back more than a year ago, especially in the context of how relatively
young the committee and the CoC is. Perhaps the members can discuss
with each other how improvements can be implemented and iterated more
manageably?

Thanks,
Fae

On Thu, 29 Aug 2019 at 21:25, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
> Hello,
> The CoC committee had a meeting with four members out of five (Lucie, Tony,
> Tonina, and Amir were at Wikimania and MusikAnimal wasn't present). These
> notes are the public outcomes of the meeting.
>
> * The committee chose Amir as the chair (Amir requested to be the table but
> it got rejected)
> * The committee is currently composing the anonymized report of its cases
> and will be published soon.
> * The committee soon will decide on the two amendments currently under
> discussion. Feel free to comment on these two:
> ** Public logging of bans:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uikcu1emvmw6e4z8
> ** Modifications on the appeal process:
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uay0vz6no8ayac3m
> * The committee is willing to introduce a new internal role which for lack
> of better term, we call it secretary for now. The role's main
> responsibility is to help the committee on organizational bookkeeping. Like
> reports, documentation of cases, etc.
> * At the end, the committee wants to remind people that its role is
> reactionary and we won't interfere when there's no report. If you see a
> behaviour you find unacceptable, stand up and send us a report and don't
> wait for the committee to jump in.
>
> Regards,
> Amir on behalf of the committee
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct committee meeting at Wikimania

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello,
The CoC committee had a meeting with four members out of five (Lucie, Tony,
Tonina, and Amir were at Wikimania and MusikAnimal wasn't present). These
notes are the public outcomes of the meeting.

* The committee chose Amir as the chair (Amir requested to be the table but
it got rejected)
* The committee is currently composing the anonymized report of its cases
and will be published soon.
* The committee soon will decide on the two amendments currently under
discussion. Feel free to comment on these two:
** Public logging of bans:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uikcu1emvmw6e4z8
** Modifications on the appeal process:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Uay0vz6no8ayac3m
* The committee is willing to introduce a new internal role which for lack
of better term, we call it secretary for now. The role's main
responsibility is to help the committee on organizational bookkeeping. Like
reports, documentation of cases, etc.
* At the end, the committee wants to remind people that its role is
reactionary and we won't interfere when there's no report. If you see a
behaviour you find unacceptable, stand up and send us a report and don't
wait for the committee to jump in.

Regards,
Amir on behalf of the committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[Amir Sarabadani]

Hello all,

It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct Committee
is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary members with
diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of the Code of
conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are in charge of
processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected, agreeing on
resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on their
duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee


This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.



The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning 23th of April 2019, they will publish their candidate slate (a list
of candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or constant member of the
committee. The committee consists of five members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for a year; all applications are appreciated
and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications is end of
day on 20th of April, 2019.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.


Best,

Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee resolution regarding CoC presence on Mediawiki

[Amir Ladsgroup]

Hey,
In the past couple of days, the committee has been asked about whether the
CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md should exist in mediawiki extension and skins repos[1].
We had a meeting and the resolution is output of that meeting. [2] Feel
free to comment and give us feedback about it on its talk page :)

[1]: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T165540
[2]:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Tenure_April2018/Resolution_regarding_CoC_presence_on_Mediawiki

Sincerely,
Amir on behalf of the Code of conduct committee
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces - Code of Conduct Committee - 2018.II members

[Katherine Maher]

I’d like to echo DJs thanks - when I speak with people from other technical
communities, it’s a point of pride to be able to share that Wikimedia
contributors developed, negotiated, and adopted this CoC.

And I’d like to echo Sébastien’s call for further participation - like our
various other community committees, your participation is critical to its
success. Please do consider a future candidacy!

Thank you all!

On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 4:38 AM Derk-Jan Hartman <
d.j.hartman+wmf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you candidates and committee !
>
> DJ
>
> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:05 PM, Sébastien Santoro
>  wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > The candidate slates has been deemed finalized.
> >
> > Thanks to the new candidates joining the committee to support
> > this important mission, sustaining our code of conduct.
> >
> > We didn't receive a lot of candidatures this session, so we'd like
> > to ask you to think for the next months if you would like to serve
> > in the 2019 half I committee, and to be ready in October to join
> > the boat.
> >
> > [ Candidates URL ]
> >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I
> >
> > This page will be moved to the members page when the new committee
> > will enter in function after a training period for new members.
> >
> > [ Procedure ]
> >
> > We haven't received any feedback to techconduct (at) twikimedia.org
> > related to one or another candidate.
> >
> > In addition to the procedure the Code of Conduct provides, we also
> > received additional comments at [[mw:Talk:Code of
> > Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I]] and consider these comments
> > party addressed and partly to solve in the next weeks, and unrelated
> > to the current candidates.
> >
> > --
> > Sébastien Santoro aka Dereckson
> > http://www.dereckson.be/
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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-- 
Katherine Maher

Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation

1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
San Francisco, CA 94104

+1 (415) 839-6885 ext. 6635
+1 (415) 712 4873
kma...@wikimedia.org
https://annual.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces - Code of Conduct Committee - 2018.II members

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

Thank you candidates and committee !

DJ

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 6:05 PM, Sébastien Santoro
 wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The candidate slates has been deemed finalized.
>
> Thanks to the new candidates joining the committee to support
> this important mission, sustaining our code of conduct.
>
> We didn't receive a lot of candidatures this session, so we'd like
> to ask you to think for the next months if you would like to serve
> in the 2019 half I committee, and to be ready in October to join
> the boat.
>
> [ Candidates URL ]
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I
>
> This page will be moved to the members page when the new committee
> will enter in function after a training period for new members.
>
> [ Procedure ]
>
> We haven't received any feedback to techconduct (at) twikimedia.org
> related to one or another candidate.
>
> In addition to the procedure the Code of Conduct provides, we also
> received additional comments at [[mw:Talk:Code of
> Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I]] and consider these comments
> party addressed and partly to solve in the next weeks, and unrelated
> to the current candidates.
>
> --
> Sébastien Santoro aka Dereckson
> http://www.dereckson.be/
>
> ___
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces - Code of Conduct Committee - 2018.II members

[Sébastien Santoro]

Hello all,

The candidate slates has been deemed finalized.

Thanks to the new candidates joining the committee to support
this important mission, sustaining our code of conduct.

We didn't receive a lot of candidatures this session, so we'd like
to ask you to think for the next months if you would like to serve
in the 2019 half I committee, and to be ready in October to join
the boat.

[ Candidates URL ]

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I

This page will be moved to the members page when the new committee
will enter in function after a training period for new members.

[ Procedure ]

We haven't received any feedback to techconduct (at) twikimedia.org
related to one or another candidate.

In addition to the procedure the Code of Conduct provides, we also
received additional comments at [[mw:Talk:Code of
Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I]] and consider these comments
party addressed and partly to solve in the next weeks, and unrelated
to the current candidates.

-- 
Sébastien Santoro aka Dereckson
http://www.dereckson.be/

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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces - Code of Conduct Committee - Candidates

[Sébastien Santoro]

Hello all,

The Code of Conduct Committee has published the list of candidates for
the next 6 months term:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee/Candidates/2018-I

If nominated, these candidates will be trusted to enforce the code of
conduct for Wikimedia
technical spaces. You can read it at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct.

Any feedback or concern about a candidate can be submitted in private
to techcond...@wikimedia.org
for the next two weeks, until Tuesday 2018-04-24.

If there is any need to change the candidates slate following the
community feedback,
the committee will submit a new list, and a new two weeks period will
take place.

--
For the Code of Conduct Committee,
Sébastien Santoro aka Dereckson
https://www.dereckson.be/

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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee call for new members

[Amir Ladsgroup]

Hello all,

It's coming close to time for annual appointments of community members to
serve on the Code of Conduct (CoC) committee. The Code of Conduct Committee
is a team of five trusted individuals plus five auxiliary members with
diverse affiliations responsible for general enforcement of the Code of
conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces. Committee members are in charge of
processing complaints, discussing with the parties affected, agreeing on
resolutions, and following up on their enforcement. For more on their
duties and roles, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee


This is a call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this committee. Volunteers serving in this role should be
experienced Wikimedians or have had experience serving in a similar
position before.



The current committee is doing the selection and will research and discuss
candidates. Six weeks before the beginning of the next Committee term,
meaning 8th of April 2018, they will publish their candidate slate (a list
of candidates) on-wiki. The community can provide feedback on these
candidates, via private email to the group choosing the next Committee. The
feedback period will be two weeks. The current Committee will then either
finalize the slate, or update the candidate slate in response to concerns
raised. If the candidate slate changes, there will be another two week
feedback period covering the newly proposed members. After the selections
are finalized, there will be a training period, after which the new
Committee is appointed. The current Committee continues to serve until the
feedback, selection, and training process is complete.

If you are interested in serving on this committee or like to nominate a
candidate, please write an email to techconductcandidates AT wikimedia.org
with details of your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the code
of conduct and the committee and what you hope to bring to the role and
whether you have a preference in being auxiliary or constant member of the
committee. The committee consists of five members plus five auxiliary
members and they will serve for six months; all applications are
appreciated and will be carefully considered. The deadline for applications
is end of day on 5th of April, 2018.

Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be qualified and interested.


Best,

Amir on behalf of the CoC committee
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct Committee for Wikimedia technical spaces constituted!

[Quim Gil]

Hello everybody,

The Code of Conduct Committee

bootstrapping
process has been completed. Some intermediate updates were posted in
phab:T159923 . Starting today,
the Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces is enforced by the new
Committe formed by Amir Sarabadani (Ladsgroup
), Lucie-Aimée Kaffee (
Frimelle ), Nuria Ruiz (
Nurieta ), Sébastien Santoro (
Dereckson ), and Tony Thomas
(01tonythomas ).
Congratulations to them, to the additional five auxiliary members

 (Απεργός, Léna, Florianschmidtwelzow, Huji, Matanya), and to everybody
else who contributed to this process!

Source:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct#Process_completed.2C_CoC_Commitee_constituted


-- 
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces now out of draft state

[zppix e]

Thanks
--
Zppix
WMF Volunteer Developer

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Quim Gil  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:
>> 
>> Per the last round of discussion & votes closing on the amendments section
>> some days back, the draft period for the Code of Conduct for technical
>> spaces is complete.
>> 
>> I've taken the liberty of removing the 'draft' template and moving the
>> pages out of their "/Draft" subpage location to their final locations:
>> 
>> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Cases
>> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee
>> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments
>> 
>> As I understand, this means the committee will be bootstrapping soon --
>> Quim will have more information on the state of things there.
>> 
>> Thanks to everybody for all your input over the last many months.
>> 
> 
> Thank you very much, Brion!
> 
> I will announce a call for candidates to join the first Committee,
> explaining the next steps as described in the Code of Conduct.
> 
> The CoC content is frozen until the Committee starts exercising as such and
> the amendments process kicks off. Small edits to i.e. fix red links,
> improve navigation to subpages and similar technical improvements are
> possible, as long as the content remains untouched.
> 
> I also want to thank all contributors, also those who have been watching
> the process from a distance (this morning I was checking the page view
> statistics, quite impressive for a community of this size). Special thanks
> to Matt and Moriel , who have contributed so much, all along, since the
> beginning, every week.
> 
> -- 
> Quim Gil
> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces now out of draft state

[Quim Gil]

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Brion Vibber  wrote:

> Per the last round of discussion & votes closing on the amendments section
> some days back, the draft period for the Code of Conduct for technical
> spaces is complete.
>
> I've taken the liberty of removing the 'draft' template and moving the
> pages out of their "/Draft" subpage location to their final locations:
>
> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Cases
> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee
> * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments
>
> As I understand, this means the committee will be bootstrapping soon --
> Quim will have more information on the state of things there.
>
> Thanks to everybody for all your input over the last many months.
>

Thank you very much, Brion!

I will announce a call for candidates to join the first Committee,
explaining the next steps as described in the Code of Conduct.

The CoC content is frozen until the Committee starts exercising as such and
the amendments process kicks off. Small edits to i.e. fix red links,
improve navigation to subpages and similar technical improvements are
possible, as long as the content remains untouched.

I also want to thank all contributors, also those who have been watching
the process from a distance (this morning I was checking the page view
statistics, quite impressive for a community of this size). Special thanks
to Matt and Moriel , who have contributed so much, all along, since the
beginning, every week.

-- 
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct for Wikimedia technical spaces now out of draft state

[Brion Vibber]

Per the last round of discussion & votes closing on the amendments section
some days back, the draft period for the Code of Conduct for technical
spaces is complete.

I've taken the liberty of removing the 'draft' template and moving the
pages out of their "/Draft" subpage location to their final locations:

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Cases
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Committee
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Amendments

As I understand, this means the committee will be bootstrapping soon --
Quim will have more information on the state of things there.

Thanks to everybody for all your input over the last many months.

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct "Creation and renewal of the Committee" text

[Zppix]

Mind if i proofread and edit it a bit if i see fit?

> On Jan 24, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Matthew Flaschen  wrote:
> 
> Please participate in the discussion about the "Creation and renewal of the 
> Committee" section.  This is not to approve it yet, just a discussion:
> 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#.22Creation_and_renewal_of_the_Committee.22_section
> 
> Most of this text has been around for a while, but I made a few changes to 
> the draft last week, so I wanted to give people an opportunity to comment, 
> suggest changes, etc.
> 
> I'll give it a few more days, then start the formal approval discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt Flaschen
> 
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct "‎Creation and renewal of the Committee" text

[Matthew Flaschen]

Please participate in the discussion about the "‎Creation and renewal of 
the Committee" section.  This is not to approve it yet, just a discussion:


https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#.22Creation_and_renewal_of_the_Committee.22_section

Most of this text has been around for a while, but I made a few changes 
to the draft last week, so I wanted to give people an opportunity to 
comment, suggest changes, etc.


I'll give it a few more days, then start the formal approval discussion.

Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[jayvdb]

I disagree that other projects are not in scope. WMF directs feedback on
its products to MediaWiki.org , so those other projects are a stakeholder,
and should be notified.
I am not advocating regular updates, but towards the end an announcement
would be good.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2016 05:18 Matthew Flaschen,  wrote:

> On 09/29/2016 11:23 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> > Positing it at the village pumpes of the local project (similar to the
> tech news notifications), for example :-)
> > Or using limited CN banners (similar to the community survey banners).
>
> The local projects in this case are MediaWiki.org,
> wikitech.wikimedia.org, Phabricator, Gerrit, the technical mailing
> lists, the technical IRC channels, and Etherpad.
>
> Activity in village pumps or elsewhere on other projects is not in scope.
>
> I think most people active on these projects have already heard about
> it.  In addition to notifying people on the mailing lists (probably the
> primary way people heard about this) and Phabricator, we've also had
> in-person events.
>
> The sitenotice is something we started looking into
> (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:T53wjhp29sgu6jms), and should
> finish following up on.
>
> Matt
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Johan Jönsson]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Strainu  wrote:
> 2016-09-30 1:18 GMT+03:00 Matthew Flaschen :
>>
>> The local projects in this case are MediaWiki.org, wikitech.wikimedia.org,
>> Phabricator, Gerrit, the technical mailing lists, the technical IRC
>> channels, and Etherpad.
>>
>> Activity in village pumps or elsewhere on other projects is not in scope.
>
>
> Agreed. Still, a mention in the Technical News now and then would have
> been nice. The ArchCom's activity, which is likely of interest to
> fewer people, is present in every edition of the news.

I think that's because I've – mainly unconsciously, perhaps – been
seeing ArchCom meetings as a chance for technically advanced editors
to get a grasp of future changes to all the Wikimedia wikis, but the
Code of Conduct discussion as an internal process for the people
involved in the spaces mentioned by Matt. Important to spread
information about on Phabricator, MediaiWiki.org, technical mailing
lists et cetera but perhaps not suitable for a newsletter that is
mainly trying to explain technical changes to editors who are not
active on those platforms – the same way I wouldn't include an
invitation to take part of a process that's specific for English
Wikipedia.

(The ArchCom meetings are actually included in less than half the
issues – I'm counting seven mentions in the last twenty weeks – but
that doesn't take away Strainu's point: It's a technical item that's
regularly included.)

//Johan Jönsson
--

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Strainu]

2016-09-30 1:18 GMT+03:00 Matthew Flaschen :
>
> The local projects in this case are MediaWiki.org, wikitech.wikimedia.org,
> Phabricator, Gerrit, the technical mailing lists, the technical IRC
> channels, and Etherpad.
>
> Activity in village pumps or elsewhere on other projects is not in scope.


Agreed. Still, a mention in the Technical News now and then would have
been nice. The ArchCom's activity, which is likely of interest to
fewer people, is present in every edition of the news.

Strainu

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 09/29/2016 11:23 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:

Positing it at the village pumpes of the local project (similar to the tech 
news notifications), for example :-)
Or using limited CN banners (similar to the community survey banners).


The local projects in this case are MediaWiki.org, 
wikitech.wikimedia.org, Phabricator, Gerrit, the technical mailing 
lists, the technical IRC channels, and Etherpad.


Activity in village pumps or elsewhere on other projects is not in scope.

I think most people active on these projects have already heard about 
it.  In addition to notifying people on the mailing lists (probably the 
primary way people heard about this) and Phabricator, we've also had 
in-person events.


The sitenotice is something we started looking into 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:T53wjhp29sgu6jms), and should 
finish following up on.


Matt

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[bawolff]

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki
 wrote:
>
>
>>>To reach more people like you, what would be the best place to post
> messages so you'd see them?
>
>
>
>
> Positing it at the village pumpes of the local project (similar to the tech 
> news notifications), for example :-)
> Or using limited CN banners (similar to the community survey banners).
>

Honestly, hasn't it been enough already with the code of conduct. The
number of announcements related to it has been staggering.

--
bawolff

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

>>To reach more people like you, what would be the best place to post
messages so you'd see them?




Positing it at the village pumpes of the local project (similar to the tech 
news notifications), for example :-)
Or using limited CN banners (similar to the community survey banners).



--Steinsplitter

Von: Wikitech-l  im Auftrag von Andre 
Klapper 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. September 2016 15:58
An: wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct
    
On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 11:07 +, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> I noticed that a Code of Conduct for Phabricator is getting
> developed. Cool to see that people are creating such a policy, it is
> standard yet in big other projects. :-)

A Code of Conduct for Wikimedia's technical spaces is being developed;
Phabricator is one of those technical spaces.

> Unfortunately, the whole Code of Conduct Voting hasn't been widely
> announced (just on phabricator). [...] Such a important decision
> should be widely announced imho. 

To reach more people like you, what would be the best place to post
messages so you'd see them?

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Andre Klapper]

On Wed, 2016-09-28 at 11:07 +, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:
> I noticed that a Code of Conduct for Phabricator is getting
> developed. Cool to see that people are creating such a policy, it is
> standard yet in big other projects. :-)

A Code of Conduct for Wikimedia's technical spaces is being developed;
Phabricator is one of those technical spaces.

> Unfortunately, the whole Code of Conduct Voting hasn't been widely
> announced (just on phabricator). [...] Such a important decision
> should be widely announced imho. 

To reach more people like you, what would be the best place to post
messages so you'd see them?

andre
-- 
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 09/28/2016 07:07 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki wrote:

Last but not least: I am not happy at all that me comment has been
strike from
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft&diff=2247995&oldid=2247822
by Matt Flaschen (WMF). Looks like it is no longer allowed to comment
over there, thus i write here.


It had nothing to do with who made the comment, or your views on the 
section.


Rather, the issue is that you were taking a position in a discussion 
that was closed two weeks ago.  That could confuse people reviewing the 
discussion.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Gergo Tisza]

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 4:07 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, the whole Code of Conduct Voting hasn't been widely
> announced (just on phabricator).


By my count, Matt has sent over twenty announcements about it to this list
(and quite a few others) over the course of the last thirteen months.
The specific section you have commented on has been announced on July 26:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2016-July/086151.html
and then again on August 24:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2016-August/086357.html

See also the earlier discussion about where announcements should be made:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Wider_participation.2C_still


> I mainly see participation just from  a very closed group.
>

I don't think "closed" is a reasonable word to use there. Participation is
mainly from a small, self-selected group of people who chose to care. Most
discussions work like that. Compare the number of people who were involved
in defining Commons copyright policy to the number of people who upload
images, or the number of people who where involved in the discussion of the
(then) new Wikimedia-wide terms of content to the number of people who use
the site...

Last but not least: I am not happy at all that me comment has been strike
> from  https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of_Con
> duct/Draft&diff=2247995&oldid=2247822 by Matt Flaschen (WMF). Looks like
> it is no longer allowed to comment over there, thus i write here.
>

According to the current draft, there is an amendment process every three
months where details of the code of conduct can be rediscussed; I would
recommend aiming for that.

(Also, in my personal opinion, your comment might have been received more
kindly if it contained anything substantive, but it was just +1 to an
IDONTLIKEIT 
comment.
Those tend not to be helpful in a consensus-building process.)
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

Hello,

I am not sure where to ask, thus i write here. Sorry if this is the wrong place!
I noticed that a Code of Conduct for Phabricator is getting developed. Cool to 
see that people are creating such a policy, it is standard yet in big other 
projects. :-)

Just a few thoughts:
Unfortunately, the whole Code of Conduct Voting hasn't been widely announced 
(just on phabricator). There are a lot users which are using phab just once at 
year. Such a important decision should be widely announced imho. I mainly see 
participation just from  a very closed group.

Last but not least: I am not happy at all that me comment has been strike from  
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft&diff=2247995&oldid=2247822
 by Matt Flaschen (WMF). Looks like it is no longer allowed to comment over 
there, thus i write here.

:-)

Regards,
Steinsplitter



http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Steinsplitter

 
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct amendments text

[Matthew Flaschen]

Please participate in the discussion about how the Code of Conduct 
should be amended:


https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#Changing_the_Code_once_enacted

Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct session at Wikimedia Developer Summit 2016

[Matthew Flaschen]

The Wikimedia Developer Summit starts this Monday, Jan. 4!

There will be an information and discussion session about the 
in-progress Code of Conduct for technical spaces 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft) on Monday.


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct and publication of private non-harassing communication

[Matthew Flaschen]

Quim has proposed an alternative wording for the text about 
republication of private communication.


You can comment at 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_Conduct/Draft#New_proposal.2C_welcomes_feedback 
or to conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .


Thanks as always,

Matt Flaschen

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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct consensus discussions update

[Matthew Flaschen]

Full consensus was not reached on "Follow-up consensus discussion on 
intro, "Principles", "Expected behavior" and "Unacceptable behavior" 
sections" 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Follow-up_consensus_discussion_on_intro.2C_.22Principles.22.2C_.22Expected_behavior.22_and_.22Unacceptable_behavior.22_sections).


Instead, there are a few discussions about how to move forward (I 
already sent the first two to the list, so consider those a reminder):


* Whether to consider most of the text from the last discussion done, 
but improve the controversial text (certain sentences/paragraphs drew 
the vast majority of the objections): 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Fine_tuning_the_next_steps


* Whether to move out the "Expected behavior" to a separate non-binding 
guidelines page: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Move_.22Expected_behavior.22_out_to_a_separate_guidelines_page.3F 



* Whether to rearrange the pages used in the discussion process: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Process_suggestion


* Whether to replace the end of the "Unacceptable behavior" section 
("Our open source community acknowledges" etc.") with two sentences 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Move_.22Our_open_source_community_acknowledges22_out_of_the_CoC.3F).


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct consensus discussions

[Matthew Flaschen]

The code of conduct 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft) 
is still actively being worked on.


There are two new consensus discussions:

* Whether to consider most of the text from the last discussion done, 
but improve the controversial text (certain sentences/paragraphs drew 
the vast majority of the objections): 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Fine_tuning_the_next_steps


* Whether to move out the "Expected behavior" to a separate non-binding 
guidelines page: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Move_.22Expected_behavior.22_out_to_a_separate_guidelines_page.3F


Feel free to state your position with a brief rationale.

Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 09/05/2015 05:32 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:

lol, consensus among whom, to what?


"There is consensus at" - Consensus among people discussing at that talk 
page.


"that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few 
sections at once" - Consensus about that.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 09/05/2015 07:11 PM, MZMcBride wrote:

I think there are people who sympathize with and even support efforts to have 
codes of
conduct in technical spaces, but who don't want to feel demonized for
being male.


Then those people should be glad to participate in finalizing this CoC.


There's a dark irony in sites such as Geek Feminism Wiki
feeling the need to prominently answer "Are men welcome here?" in their
FAQ ().


Since I felt welcome on that wiki before reading that FAQ, I don't 
really find it ironic.  Perhaps they went farther than they needed to be 
welcoming, but *that's not a bad thing*.



This isn't to say that there aren't good ideas and good people behind some
of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
overeager citations of feminist theory.


There is no such language or citation on the draft.

Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Oliver Keyes]

On 8 September 2015 at 14:04, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
 wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
>> On 8 September 2015 at 12:56, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
>>  wrote:
>> > Some people (regardless of gender or other characteristics) find
>> harassing
>> > or discriminatory behavior offensive, such behavior is unfortunately too
>> > common,[1] and a code of conduct (assuming it's enforced) that prohibits
>> > such behavior can reassure concerned people that they will find support
>> > should they experience such behavior. Let's write one based on that
>> premise
>> > rather than focusing on the female experience to the exclusion of all
>> else.
>> > And, in fact, at a glance the language of current draft does seem to be
>> on
>> > that basis.
>>
>> It's ambiguous as to whether that last paragraph means "this CoC is
>> targeted at the experiences of women and this is a bad thing" or "we
>> should make sure we have an intersectional CoC and the current draft
>> does a good job".
>>
>
> The latter.
>
>

Gotcha; cool!

> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> On 8 September 2015 at 12:56, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
>  wrote:
> > Some people (regardless of gender or other characteristics) find
> harassing
> > or discriminatory behavior offensive, such behavior is unfortunately too
> > common,[1] and a code of conduct (assuming it's enforced) that prohibits
> > such behavior can reassure concerned people that they will find support
> > should they experience such behavior. Let's write one based on that
> premise
> > rather than focusing on the female experience to the exclusion of all
> else.
> > And, in fact, at a glance the language of current draft does seem to be
> on
> > that basis.
>
> It's ambiguous as to whether that last paragraph means "this CoC is
> targeted at the experiences of women and this is a bad thing" or "we
> should make sure we have an intersectional CoC and the current draft
> does a good job".
>

The latter.


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Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Oliver Keyes]

On 8 September 2015 at 12:56, Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
 wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
>> On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:
>> > Oliver Keyes wrote:
>> >>On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
>> >>don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
>> >>recently encountered http://wp.me/p11Aax-4aq on Twitter - it's an
>> >>interesting read and brings up a couple of points definitely worth
>> >>thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC is not to be the
>> >>be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set a very minimum bound
>> >>of what is acceptable.
>> >
>> > Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is?
>
>
> I wondered the same thing.
>
>
>> It seems weird to me that a conversation about codes of conduct is
>> being shifted into a discussion of "but the people writing about codes
>> of conduct, let's debate where they fall on an ideological spectrum".
>> This thread is not for discussing "militant feminist language" or
>> "demonizing people for being male", this is about having a code of
>> conduct, full stop.
>
>
> Ok, let's talk about this in context of a code of conduct. One of the
> drivers behind the push for a code of conduct is that there is too much[1]
> misogyny in the larger "online technical community" world. But the answer
> to it isn't misandrist phrases like "worthless manfeelings" or dismissing
> because of poor word choice others' concerns over overly-gendered rhetoric
> being thrown around in various blog posts sent to the list as examples, as
> those too should be against the code of conduct.
>
> Some people (regardless of gender or other characteristics) find harassing
> or discriminatory behavior offensive, such behavior is unfortunately too
> common,[1] and a code of conduct (assuming it's enforced) that prohibits
> such behavior can reassure concerned people that they will find support
> should they experience such behavior. Let's write one based on that premise
> rather than focusing on the female experience to the exclusion of all else.
> And, in fact, at a glance the language of current draft does seem to be on
> that basis.
>

It's ambiguous as to whether that last paragraph means "this CoC is
targeted at the experiences of women and this is a bad thing" or "we
should make sure we have an intersectional CoC and the current draft
does a good job".

If it's the former, you're welcome to comment on the talkpage with
proposed changes, although I disagree with your read on it; there are
plenty of people of all gender identities or backgrounds who find the
behaviour the draft is trying to protect against offensive. But the
read that this primarily covers the experience of people excluded or
underrepresented from/within our community is...exactly what a code of
conduct should do. Yes, lots of people of all backgrounds find
behaviour of various stripes inappropriate. But it's been pretty
widely shown, through quantitative data and lived experiences, that
different groups are more or less likely (as the demographics of the
public feedback on the proposal suggests!) to stick around after being
/exposed/ to that behaviour. A code of conduct that prioritises the
experiences of those people who are particularly disenfranchised by
poor behaviour is...well, a good code of conduct, unless you can point
to parts of the CoC that actively drive away groups who are currently
flourishing.

>
> [1]: i.e. "incidence is greater than zero"
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 7:14 PM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:
> > Oliver Keyes wrote:
> >>On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
> >>don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
> >>recently encountered http://wp.me/p11Aax-4aq on Twitter - it's an
> >>interesting read and brings up a couple of points definitely worth
> >>thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC is not to be the
> >>be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set a very minimum bound
> >>of what is acceptable.
> >
> > Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is?


I wondered the same thing.


> It seems weird to me that a conversation about codes of conduct is
> being shifted into a discussion of "but the people writing about codes
> of conduct, let's debate where they fall on an ideological spectrum".
> This thread is not for discussing "militant feminist language" or
> "demonizing people for being male", this is about having a code of
> conduct, full stop.


Ok, let's talk about this in context of a code of conduct. One of the
drivers behind the push for a code of conduct is that there is too much[1]
misogyny in the larger "online technical community" world. But the answer
to it isn't misandrist phrases like "worthless manfeelings" or dismissing
because of poor word choice others' concerns over overly-gendered rhetoric
being thrown around in various blog posts sent to the list as examples, as
those too should be against the code of conduct.

Some people (regardless of gender or other characteristics) find harassing
or discriminatory behavior offensive, such behavior is unfortunately too
common,[1] and a code of conduct (assuming it's enforced) that prohibits
such behavior can reassure concerned people that they will find support
should they experience such behavior. Let's write one based on that premise
rather than focusing on the female experience to the exclusion of all else.
And, in fact, at a glance the language of current draft does seem to be on
that basis.


[1]: i.e. "incidence is greater than zero"

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Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Vi to]

I cannot find any possible lost by applying those principles neither.

Vito

2015-09-06 14:49 GMT+02:00 Quim Gil :

> As I tried to explain at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-August/082778.html,
> there is a potential correlation between being opposed to a Code of Conduct
> and having a community profile needing less such Code of Conduct. This
> doesn't mean that our community doesn't need a Code of Conduct, though. We
> want to be an open and diverse community, with profiles definitely more
> diverse than the ones of the people active in this discussion.
>
> For the sake of the argument, let's say that those community members
> opposing completely to a Code of Conduct for Wikimedia tech wouldn't gain
> anything in case it is approved. Fine, but would they have anything to
> lose? Would the Wikimedia Tech community lose anything or be harmed in any
> way for the approval of a Code of Conduct? Is there anything harmful or
> counterproductive (or politically tendentious, as it has been suggested) in
> the three sections that are being proposed right now?
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> (intro paragraph / section 0 only)
>
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Principles
>
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Unacceptable_behavior
>
> Looking at these part of the current draft, it is hard for me to see how
> this could not be beneficial, or at the very least how it could be
> counterproductive, something we should avoid.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Quim Gil]

As I tried to explain at
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2015-August/082778.html,
there is a potential correlation between being opposed to a Code of Conduct
and having a community profile needing less such Code of Conduct. This
doesn't mean that our community doesn't need a Code of Conduct, though. We
want to be an open and diverse community, with profiles definitely more
diverse than the ones of the people active in this discussion.

For the sake of the argument, let's say that those community members
opposing completely to a Code of Conduct for Wikimedia tech wouldn't gain
anything in case it is approved. Fine, but would they have anything to
lose? Would the Wikimedia Tech community lose anything or be harmed in any
way for the approval of a Code of Conduct? Is there anything harmful or
counterproductive (or politically tendentious, as it has been suggested) in
the three sections that are being proposed right now?

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
(intro paragraph / section 0 only)

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Principles

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Unacceptable_behavior

Looking at these part of the current draft, it is hard for me to see how
this could not be beneficial, or at the very least how it could be
counterproductive, something we should avoid.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Brian Wolff]

> the mails sent here the last week made me think more thorough about what
> the actual problem is, and reconsider my posiiton. i added comments to the
> phabricator ticket at: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908#1612033.
>
> to summarize the phabricator comments briefly, i experienced the wikimedia
> technical community as arrogant and ignorant, paradoxically despite the
> persons in the community are not arrogant and ignoring. mails get no
> answer, ticktes get closed immediately or reshuffled, patches sit in gerrit
> for years. contrary, the most successful open source community, linux /
> git, tolerates things which we would not tolerate (e.g.
> https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2895 f*ck nvidia). i experienced that
> community as extremely welcoming and helpful.

I could certainly see how one could feel that way. There have been
several times when I have felt that way.

But I also feel like they are separate issues from what the Code of
conduct is trying to address, and probably need different solutions.

> "WMF persons
> assure on every contact that the client walks away happy."instead of a
> "WMF punishes misbehave". contrary to all the punishment suggestions above,
> it would be a positive policy. the ones involved in raising children
> already saw how much more effective a praising and lauding approach is -
> which i find works as well with adults. good is also that praising works
> international, no cultural barriers.

Well if we extend the metaphor - Even parents who believe in praise,
would probably punish their child if s/he committed murder. The code
of conduct is supposed to deal with the horrible situations, not the
everyday situations. Its not supposed to be the be-all and end-all of
everything.

--
bawolff

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[rupert THURNER]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Brian Wolff  wrote:

> On 9/5/15, rupert THURNER  wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen <
> mflasc...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> There is consensus at
> >>
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
> >> that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
> >> sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
> >>
> > lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
> > reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?
>
> Consensus, of the people participating in the talk page of the draft,
> in the typical Wikimedia definition of the word (Most arguments have
> .puttered out, and a super-majority of those participating seem to
> have settled on some agreement).
>
> > i
> > would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria
> for
> > the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or
> success
> > criteria. e.g
> >
> > * 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
> > * 20% of committers want it
> > * after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done
> >
> > other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
> > would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
> > conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or
> quim
> > ?
>
> I feel like this is mixing up the question of whether we "need" a code
> of conduct, with whether we will get a code of conduct.
>
>
the mails sent here the last week made me think more thorough about what
the actual problem is, and reconsider my posiiton. i added comments to the
phabricator ticket at: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908#1612033.

to summarize the phabricator comments briefly, i experienced the wikimedia
technical community as arrogant and ignorant, paradoxically despite the
persons in the community are not arrogant and ignoring. mails get no
answer, ticktes get closed immediately or reshuffled, patches sit in gerrit
for years. contrary, the most successful open source community, linux /
git, tolerates things which we would not tolerate (e.g.
https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2895 f*ck nvidia). i experienced that
community as extremely welcoming and helpful.

after rethinking, i am now convinced that our community can be come more
welcoming with two measures. first, the mindset need to change to be
welcoming. if constant talking about the approach on the mailing list is
not enough a 10 lines code of conduct might help, containing a "WMF persons
assure on every contact that the client walks away happy." instead of a
"WMF punishes misbehave". contrary to all the punishment suggestions above,
it would be a positive policy. the ones involved in raising children
already saw how much more effective a praising and lauding approach is -
which i find works as well with adults. good is also that praising works
international, no cultural barriers.

second i think that our technical products should have a skilled programmer
as product owner who likes tinkering with the product. but - this ideally
goes into a separate mail thread.

best,
rupert
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Brian Wolff]

On 9/5/15, rupert THURNER  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
> wrote:
>
>> There is consensus at
>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
>> that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
>> sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
>> ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
>> sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
>> goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
>> finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
>> changes to them.
>>
>> The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
>> Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
>> have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
>> appear to have stabilized.
>>
>> However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
>> participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:
>>
>> *
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>
>> *
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>
>> If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
>> name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
>> conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
>> Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
>> anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
>> request.
>>
>>
> lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
> reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?

Consensus, of the people participating in the talk page of the draft,
in the typical Wikimedia definition of the word (Most arguments have
.puttered out, and a super-majority of those participating seem to
have settled on some agreement).

Since arguments seem to have mostly stopped, and most of the people
participating on the talk page seem to be in agreement, several people
felt that its time to bring this back to the larger community for
comment before asking the larger community to approve. And thus here
we are.

> probably not, because i did maybe two unimportant commits for kiwix.

Well you're sending email here. That's participation. Your arguments
will influence people, and as a result may change the course of what
the wider community decides.

> i
> would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria for
> the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or success
> criteria. e.g
>
> * 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
> * 20% of committers want it
> * after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done
>
> other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
> would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
> conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or quim
> ?

I feel like this is mixing up the question of whether we "need" a code
of conduct, with whether we will get a code of conduct.

Whether we need a code of conduct is a complicated question, that has
been debated quite a bit already. I do not believe this is something
that is quantifiable (Or if we are tying the CoC to some sort of
quantifiable goal, then we are doing it for the wrong reasons).

Whether we will get one (or to put another way, under what criteria
will we consider the proposal to adopt a code of conduct a success,
and actually adopt it), is a different question. My opinion would be
to have something along the lines of having a vote, and if 75% of the
people who decide to participate support it, then its considered
adopted. Although I'm sure people will argue back and forth about the
procedures for this and people are talking about it at
Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps.

--
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Brian Wolff]

On 9/5/15, MZMcBride  wrote:
> Oliver Keyes wrote:
>>On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
>>don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
>>recently encountered http://wp.me/p11Aax-4aq on Twitter - it's an
>>interesting read and brings up a couple of points definitely worth
>>thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC is not to be the
>>be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set a very minimum bound
>>of what is acceptable.
>
> Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is? It seems weird to me that the
> push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement. I think there
> are people who sympathize with and even support efforts to have codes of
> conduct in technical spaces, but who don't want to feel demonized for
> being male. There's a dark irony in sites such as Geek Feminism Wiki
> feeling the need to prominently answer "Are men welcome here?" in their
> FAQ ().
>
> This isn't to say that there aren't good ideas and good people behind some
> of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
> conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
> overeager citations of feminist theory.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>


I'm not sure what the phrase "ultra-liberal feminist movement" means,
but if what you're trying to say is that all the "You're either with
us- or you're an evil scumbag" rhetoric is getting annoying (and
probably backfiring on those employing it), then I agree 100%.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Risker]

On 5 September 2015 at 21:11, Alex Monk  wrote:

> On 5 September 2015 at 23:19, David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > I don’t feel safe because there is a code of conduct. But I tell you
> one
> > thing that makes me feel unsafe – men who will endlessly, vociferously
> > argue against them. Maybe a code of conduct isn’t meaningful. But at this
> > point, refusing to listen, refusing to have one. Well, that is.
>
>
> This quote seems a bit sexist to me.
>
> Actually, I wonder whether the current draft of the code of conduct would
> allow you to send it here or not.
>
> On 6 September 2015 at 01:42, Risker  wrote:
>
> > On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:
> > 
> >
> > > It seems weird to me that the
> > > push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> > > become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement.
> > >
> >
> > Really?
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_United_States_Fighting_Force
>
>
> How is this relevant to what MZMcBride said?
>


Codes of conduct originated in what most people would consider the most
stereotypically male-dominated organizations. If you read the article,
you'll see that they had to update it in the 1980s to make it gender
neutral.  Gradually, over the last three generations, codes of conduct have
made it through to most sectors of the professional and business worlds.
It's hardly an ultra-liberal feminist movement that has led to this.

Risker
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Moriel Schottlender]

On Sat, Sep 5, 2015 at 4:11 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is? It seems weird to me that the
> push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement. I think there
> are people who sympathize with and even support efforts to have codes of
> conduct in technical spaces, but who don't want to feel demonized for
> being male. There's a dark irony in sites such as Geek Feminism Wiki
> feeling the need to prominently answer "Are men welcome here?" in their
> FAQ ().
>
> This isn't to say that there aren't good ideas and good people behind some
> of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
> conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
> overeager citations of feminist theory.
>
>
Considering the fact that so far the vast majority of voices raised in this
email thread, the previous 2 email threads, and the Code of Conduct draft
discussion itself were mostly self-identified male, I suspect we are fairly
safe from making it "anti men".




> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Alex Monk]

On 5 September 2015 at 23:19, David Gerard  wrote:
>
> > I don’t feel safe because there is a code of conduct. But I tell you one
> thing that makes me feel unsafe – men who will endlessly, vociferously
> argue against them. Maybe a code of conduct isn’t meaningful. But at this
> point, refusing to listen, refusing to have one. Well, that is.


This quote seems a bit sexist to me.

Actually, I wonder whether the current draft of the code of conduct would
allow you to send it here or not.

On 6 September 2015 at 01:42, Risker  wrote:

> On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:
> 
>
> > It seems weird to me that the
> > push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> > become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement.
> >
>
> Really?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_United_States_Fighting_Force


How is this relevant to what MZMcBride said?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Risker]

On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:




>  It seems weird to me that the
> push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement.
>



Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_the_United_States_Fighting_Force

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[David Gerard]

On 6 September 2015 at 00:11, MZMcBride  wrote:


> become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement. I think there


It would probably be fascinating to have this technical term defined
with any specificity.


> of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
> conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
> overeager citations of feminist theory.


The hypothetical people in question would look to any excuse in practice.


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Oliver Keyes]

On 5 September 2015 at 19:11, MZMcBride  wrote:
> Oliver Keyes wrote:
>>On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
>>don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
>>recently encountered http://wp.me/p11Aax-4aq on Twitter - it's an
>>interesting read and brings up a couple of points definitely worth
>>thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC is not to be the
>>be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set a very minimum bound
>>of what is acceptable.
>
> Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is? It seems weird to me that the
> push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
> become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement. I think there
> are people who sympathize with and even support efforts to have codes of
> conduct in technical spaces, but who don't want to feel demonized for
> being male. There's a dark irony in sites such as Geek Feminism Wiki
> feeling the need to prominently answer "Are men welcome here?" in their
> FAQ ().
>
> This isn't to say that there aren't good ideas and good people behind some
> of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
> conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
> overeager citations of feminist theory.
>

It seems weird to me that a conversation about codes of conduct is
being shifted into a discussion of "but the people writing about codes
of conduct, let's debate where they fall on an ideological spectrum".
This thread is not for discussing "militant feminist language" or
"demonizing people for being male", this is about having a code of
conduct, full stop. If you want to start a conversation about
"militant feminism" I'm sure there is a mailing list out there for
that, but it is not this one.

> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[MZMcBride]

Oliver Keyes wrote:
>On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
>don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
>recently encountered http://wp.me/p11Aax-4aq on Twitter - it's an
>interesting read and brings up a couple of points definitely worth
>thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC is not to be the
>be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set a very minimum bound
>of what is acceptable.

Am I supposed to know what a manfeeling is? It seems weird to me that the
push (perhaps a movement, who knows) to implement codes of conduct has
become so enmeshed with the ultra-liberal feminist movement. I think there
are people who sympathize with and even support efforts to have codes of
conduct in technical spaces, but who don't want to feel demonized for
being male. There's a dark irony in sites such as Geek Feminism Wiki
feeling the need to prominently answer "Are men welcome here?" in their
FAQ ().

This isn't to say that there aren't good ideas and good people behind some
of this content, but I can see a lot potential allies to the code of
conduct cause being put off by the militant feminist language and
overeager citations of feminist theory.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[David Gerard]

The first and last paras are particularly worth quoting:

> Earlier this year I pulled out of a conference because the organiser and I 
> disagreed on code of conducts. Specifically I thought there should be one, 
> and he did not. He did eventually add one, but refused to define unacceptable 
> behaviour. Myself and another woman pulled out.

...

> I don’t feel safe because there is a code of conduct. But I tell you one 
> thing that makes me feel unsafe – men who will endlessly, vociferously argue 
> against them. Maybe a code of conduct isn’t meaningful. But at this point, 
> refusing to listen, refusing to have one. Well, that is.


- d.



On 5 September 2015 at 23:07, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
> On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
> don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
> recently encountered
> http://www.catehuston.com/blog/2015/09/02/code-of-conducts-and-worthless-manfeelings/
> on Twitter - it's an interesting read and brings up a couple of points
> definitely worth thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC
> is not to be the be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set
> a very minimum bound of what is acceptable.
>
> On 5 September 2015 at 17:39, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>> Why don't you comment on any of the three links provided in the email
>> you're replying to? That seems like an obvious venue for concerns you
>> might have.
>>
>> On 5 September 2015 at 17:32, rupert THURNER  
>> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There is consensus at

 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
 that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
 sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
 ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
 sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
 goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
 finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
 changes to them.

 The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
 Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
 have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
 appear to have stabilized.

 However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
 participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:

 *
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft

 *
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft

 If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
 name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
 conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
 Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
 anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
 request.


>>> lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
>>> reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?
>>> probably not, because i did maybe two unimportant commits for kiwix. i
>>> would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria for
>>> the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or success
>>> criteria. e.g
>>>
>>> * 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
>>> * 20% of committers want it
>>> * after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done
>>>
>>> other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
>>> would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
>>> conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or quim
>>> ?
>>>
>>> best,
>>> rupert
>>> ___
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oliver Keyes
>> Count Logula
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Count Logula
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Oliver Keyes]

On the general subject of codes of conduct and what they bring (or
don't bring) in terms of user safety and a sense of inclusion, I
recently encountered
http://www.catehuston.com/blog/2015/09/02/code-of-conducts-and-worthless-manfeelings/
on Twitter - it's an interesting read and brings up a couple of points
definitely worth thinking about, namely that the intent behind a CoC
is not to be the be-all and end-all of user safety but instead to set
a very minimum bound of what is acceptable.

On 5 September 2015 at 17:39, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
> Why don't you comment on any of the three links provided in the email
> you're replying to? That seems like an obvious venue for concerns you
> might have.
>
> On 5 September 2015 at 17:32, rupert THURNER  wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is consensus at
>>>
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
>>> that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
>>> sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
>>> ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
>>> sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
>>> goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
>>> finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
>>> changes to them.
>>>
>>> The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
>>> Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
>>> have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
>>> appear to have stabilized.
>>>
>>> However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
>>> participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:
>>>
>>> *
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>>
>>> *
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>>
>>> If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
>>> name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
>>> conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
>>> Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
>>> anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
>>> request.
>>>
>>>
>> lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
>> reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?
>> probably not, because i did maybe two unimportant commits for kiwix. i
>> would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria for
>> the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or success
>> criteria. e.g
>>
>> * 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
>> * 20% of committers want it
>> * after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done
>>
>> other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
>> would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
>> conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or quim
>> ?
>>
>> best,
>> rupert
>> ___
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Count Logula
> Wikimedia Foundation



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Oliver Keyes]

Why don't you comment on any of the three links provided in the email
you're replying to? That seems like an obvious venue for concerns you
might have.

On 5 September 2015 at 17:32, rupert THURNER  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
> wrote:
>
>> There is consensus at
>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
>> that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
>> sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
>> ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
>> sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
>> goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
>> finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
>> changes to them.
>>
>> The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
>> Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
>> have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
>> appear to have stabilized.
>>
>> However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
>> participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:
>>
>> *
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>
>> *
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>>
>> If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
>> name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
>> conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
>> Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
>> anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
>> request.
>>
>>
> lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
> reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?
> probably not, because i did maybe two unimportant commits for kiwix. i
> would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria for
> the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or success
> criteria. e.g
>
> * 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
> * 20% of committers want it
> * after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done
>
> other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
> would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
> conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or quim
> ?
>
> best,
> rupert
> ___
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Count Logula
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[rupert THURNER]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> There is consensus at
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
> that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
> sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
> ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
> sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
> goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
> finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
> changes to them.
>
> The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
> Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
> have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
> appear to have stabilized.
>
> However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
> participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:
>
> *
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>
> *
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>
> If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
> name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
> conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
> Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
> anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
> request.
>
>
lol, consensus among whom, to what? i am against it (i'd love to send the
reasons in another mail though), do i count, and it is still consensus?
probably not, because i did maybe two unimportant commits for kiwix. i
would prefer if you would be so kind to define one measurable criteria for
the question "do we need a code of conduct", no matter if entry or success
criteria. e.g

* 50 volunteers from different part of the world saying that we need it
* 20% of committers want it
* after one year 20% more volunteer commits are done

other critieria like "people attending conferences", or "mails written"
would be a bad idea, as the goal is to have more contributions, not more
conference tourists or mailing list tourists. what you think, matt, or quim
?

best,
rupert
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[Wikitech-l] Code of Conduct: Intro, Principles, and Unacceptable behavior sections

[Matthew Flaschen]

There is consensus at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
that the best way to finalize the CoC draft is to focus on a few
sections at once (while still allowing people to comment on other
ones).  This allows progress without requiring people to monitor all
sections at once and lets us separate the questions of “what are our
goals here?” and “how should this work?”.  After these sections are
finalized, I recommend minimizing or avoiding later substantive
changes to them.

The first sections being finalized are the intro (text before the
Principles section), Principles, and Unacceptable behavior.  These
have been discussed on the talk page for the last two weeks, and
appear to have stabilized.

However, there may still be points that need to be refined. Please
participate in building consensus on final versions of these sections:

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft

* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft

If you are not comfortable contributing to this discussion under your
name or a pseudonym, you can email your feedback or suggestions to
conduct-discuss...@wikimedia.org .  Quim Gil, Frances Hocutt, and
Kalliope Tsouroupidou will be monitoring this address and will
anonymously bring the points raised into the discussion at your
request.

Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Frances Hocutt]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Brion Vibber  wrote:

> But I strongly recommend we seek out people who have experience with
> organizing this sort of thing before we try cobbling together an
> enforcement committee on our own, just as we seek out people with domain
> expertise on technical issues that we wish to implement.
>

Agree completely. Within the WMF, my sense is that Community Advocacy has
the most domain expertise around community enforcement mechanisms, although
the dynamics in the projects' communities of course don't map perfectly to
those in our technical community, and I'd value their input.

More generally:
>
> I think it's pretty well-known within our community (that includes me, that
> includes you if you're reading this, that includes everyone who works on
> MediaWiki, MediaWiki extensions, JS gadgets and user scripts, templates and
> Lua modules for Wikipedia, Wiktionary, and other sites, etc) that we've
> seen lot of negative interactions between people: anger, put-downs, "not my
> department", "RTFM", passive-aggressive eye-rolling sarcasm, etc -- these
> are the sorts of things that poison a community and make it harder to
> attract and retain people who start out excited about helping.
>
> I believe it's important that we explicitly acknowledge this and improve
> our community norms -- and especially our enforcement systems -- with it in
> mind. Among other things, this means that listing out specific offenses has
> only limited utility; toxic behavior can easily extend itself through
> "rules-lawyering", as I think we've all seen on Wikipedia.
>

I agree that lists of specific behaviors aren't enough to produce a
genuinely welcoming community, but it's still very important to have them
in order to address the "oh, I didn't know that was inappropriate" argument
(an unfortunately common one almost no matter what the offense). As they
say, "common sense" isn't, especially in as broad a community as Wikimedia
contributors.

-Frances
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Brion Vibber]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 9:27 PM, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> There is some discussion now about how the Code of Conduct Committee
> should be formed.  See:
>
>
> *
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role
>
> and
>
> *
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Another_membership_proposal
> .
>

Glad to see steps forward!

But I strongly recommend we seek out people who have experience with
organizing this sort of thing before we try cobbling together an
enforcement committee on our own, just as we seek out people with domain
expertise on technical issues that we wish to implement.


More generally:

I think it's pretty well-known within our community (that includes me, that
includes you if you're reading this, that includes everyone who works on
MediaWiki, MediaWiki extensions, JS gadgets and user scripts, templates and
Lua modules for Wikipedia, Wiktionary, and other sites, etc) that we've
seen lot of negative interactions between people: anger, put-downs, "not my
department", "RTFM", passive-aggressive eye-rolling sarcasm, etc -- these
are the sorts of things that poison a community and make it harder to
attract and retain people who start out excited about helping.

I believe it's important that we explicitly acknowledge this and improve
our community norms -- and especially our enforcement systems -- with it in
mind. Among other things, this means that listing out specific offenses has
only limited utility; toxic behavior can easily extend itself through
"rules-lawyering", as I think we've all seen on Wikipedia.

-- brion
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/21/2015 06:43 AM, Quim Gil wrote:

I also would like to see more edits from volunteers and other affiliations.
Please jump in! Most WMF employees drafting and discussing there are doing
so out of their personal interest, with no WMF directive and most likely on
their own time. I'm basically the only exception.


It's important to remember that we're building this CoC because it is 
relevant to both our community and our work.


I know that's why I'm participating, and I believe it's also why the 
volunteers are.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Isarra Yos]

On 21/08/15 14:39, Oliver Keyes wrote:

On 21 August 2015 at 06:43, Quim Gil  wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:


* I see a lot (maybe 70%) staffer edits there.

I also would like to see more edits from volunteers and other affiliations.
Please jump in! Most WMF employees drafting and discussing there are doing
so out of their personal interest, with no WMF directive and most likely on
their own time. I'm basically the only exception.

Speaking as a WMF employee who is involved in the discussion, this is
my personal opinion - hence my choice of accounts to comment with. I
suspect that WMF employees probably make up a big proportion of the
technical community itself (something this proposal will hopefully
help change!) and so large amounts of WMF participation is not
surprising.


If nothing else, WMF employees are likely the bulk of technical 
contributors with the spare time to actually talk meta about this stuff, 
since they're already spending their paid time making things. Imagine if 
you were doing all of this in your spare time, would you rather be using 
your limited time making things, or talking about some ephemeral 
proposed thing that may not ever even affect you even if it does become 
real? Having to make that choice could impact matters too.


-I

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Oliver Keyes]

On 21 August 2015 at 06:43, Quim Gil  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
>
>> Some thoughts about
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>> * I can't see community consensus (RFC) for this.
>>
>
> "This page is currently a draft." It is not ready yet for a wide call for
> comments.
>
> I'm not even sure that the RfC process is the right one for this. It is
> open for discussion. I just posted
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps
>
>
>> * I see a lot (maybe 70%) staffer edits there.
>>
>
> I also would like to see more edits from volunteers and other affiliations.
> Please jump in! Most WMF employees drafting and discussing there are doing
> so out of their personal interest, with no WMF directive and most likely on
> their own time. I'm basically the only exception.

Speaking as a WMF employee who is involved in the discussion, this is
my personal opinion - hence my choice of accounts to comment with. I
suspect that WMF employees probably make up a big proportion of the
technical community itself (something this proposal will hopefully
help change!) and so large amounts of WMF participation is not
surprising.

>
> * It is complicated to understand the policy.
>>
>
> This new draft is based on an existing Contributor Covenant used already by
> several free software projects. See
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Rewrite_based_on_Contributor_Covenant.3F
>
> We keep working on it, and you are welcome to join with ideas and edits.
>
>
> I have the feeling that only a few staffer building this.
>> Please don't forget to involve the community!
>>
>
> See above. The base text has been forked from an external effort shared by
> many projects. The page is open to edits and comments from anybody. The
> initiative has been announced and discussed here and in other channels.
>
> There is a proposal to offer an email alias to people willing to give
> feedback but preferring to do it privately. As you see, we are trying to
> get feedback from a wide variety of profiles. What else can we do to get
> more people involved?
>
>
> How you like to enforce this policy on irc?
>>
>
> In the most effective way.  :)  What is your question, exactly? There is a
> lengthy discussion at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#IRC
>
>
>
> What is the committee? A WMF super arbcom?
>>
>
> We are discussing the committee right now. It's not a simple question. It
> needs to be staffed by people willing to be in that role, it needs to have
> community trust, and it needs to be effective. Your ideas are welcome. See
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role
>
>
>
>> Moor transparency would be great, and to write it in simple english so
>> that non native speakers can get involved.
>>
>
> This exercise can be hardly more transparent. The fact that you can find so
> many open questions, some areas of dense language, and still not so many
> participants as we all would wish is due precisely to the fact that those
> interested are working openly in a pure wiki style since edit 1, and in
> fact since T87773.
>
> As a non-native English speaker myself, I'm also interested in making the
> text simpler and clearer for everybody. This becomes easier as soon as
> paragraphs enter "testing" or "stable". Some areas are still in "unstable"
> and even "experimental".  :)
>
>
>>
>> Best and with concerns,
>>
>
> Please keep converting your concerns into more feedback.  Thank you!
>
>
>> > There is some discussion now about how the Code of Conduct Committee
>> > should be formed.  See:
>> >
>> >
>> > *
>> >
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role
>> >
>> > and
>> >
>> > *
>> >
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Another_membership_proposal
>>
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> ___
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-- 
Oliver Keyes
Count Logula
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Quim Gil]

Hi,

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:

> Some thoughts about
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> * I can't see community consensus (RFC) for this.
>

"This page is currently a draft." It is not ready yet for a wide call for
comments.

I'm not even sure that the RfC process is the right one for this. It is
open for discussion. I just posted
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Next_steps


> * I see a lot (maybe 70%) staffer edits there.
>

I also would like to see more edits from volunteers and other affiliations.
Please jump in! Most WMF employees drafting and discussing there are doing
so out of their personal interest, with no WMF directive and most likely on
their own time. I'm basically the only exception.

* It is complicated to understand the policy.
>

This new draft is based on an existing Contributor Covenant used already by
several free software projects. See
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Rewrite_based_on_Contributor_Covenant.3F

We keep working on it, and you are welcome to join with ideas and edits.


I have the feeling that only a few staffer building this.
> Please don't forget to involve the community!
>

See above. The base text has been forked from an external effort shared by
many projects. The page is open to edits and comments from anybody. The
initiative has been announced and discussed here and in other channels.

There is a proposal to offer an email alias to people willing to give
feedback but preferring to do it privately. As you see, we are trying to
get feedback from a wide variety of profiles. What else can we do to get
more people involved?


How you like to enforce this policy on irc?
>

In the most effective way.  :)  What is your question, exactly? There is a
lengthy discussion at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#IRC



What is the committee? A WMF super arbcom?
>

We are discussing the committee right now. It's not a simple question. It
needs to be staffed by people willing to be in that role, it needs to have
community trust, and it needs to be effective. Your ideas are welcome. See
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role



> Moor transparency would be great, and to write it in simple english so
> that non native speakers can get involved.
>

This exercise can be hardly more transparent. The fact that you can find so
many open questions, some areas of dense language, and still not so many
participants as we all would wish is due precisely to the fact that those
interested are working openly in a pure wiki style since edit 1, and in
fact since T87773.

As a non-native English speaker myself, I'm also interested in making the
text simpler and clearer for everybody. This becomes easier as soon as
paragraphs enter "testing" or "stable". Some areas are still in "unstable"
and even "experimental".  :)


>
> Best and with concerns,
>

Please keep converting your concerns into more feedback.  Thank you!


> > There is some discussion now about how the Code of Conduct Committee
> > should be formed.  See:
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role
> >
> > and
> >
> > *
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Another_membership_proposal
>

-- 
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Steinsplitter Wiki]

Some thoughts about 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
* I can't see community consensus (RFC) for this.
* I see a lot (maybe 70%) staffer edits there.
* It is complicated to understand the policy.

I have the feeling that only a few staffer building this.
Please don't forget to involve the community!

How you like to enforce this policy on irc?

What is the committee? A WMF super arbcom?

Moor transparency would be great, and to write it in simple english so that non 
native speakers can get involved.

Best and with concerns,
Steinsplitter

> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:27:22 -0400
> From: mflasc...@wikimedia.org
> To: wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee
> 
> There is some discussion now about how the Code of Conduct Committee 
> should be formed.  See:
> 
> 
> * 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role
> 
> and
> 
> * 
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Another_membership_proposal
>  
> .
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt Flaschen
> 
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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct committee

[Matthew Flaschen]

There is some discussion now about how the Code of Conduct Committee 
should be formed.  See:



* 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Membership_of_the_committee_and_ECT.27s_role


and

* 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Another_membership_proposal 
.


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/17/2015 08:28 PM, Frances Hocutt wrote:

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Alex Monk  wrote:


It looks like "Communicate about technology in public where possible.
Private means of communication do exist, but prefer to use public places
unless an exception is appropriate." has been removed and "Publication of
non-harassing private communication." has been added as a form of
harassment...



Correct. I removed the first per the discussion here[1] and brought in some
of the Grants Friendly Space Expectations[2], since those seem to have been
working well.


Yaron actually removed it on Wednesday 
(https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft&diff=1836917&oldid=1836907) 
on the grounds that it's more of a guideline kind of thing.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Frances Hocutt]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Alex Monk  wrote:

> It looks like "Communicate about technology in public where possible.
> Private means of communication do exist, but prefer to use public places
> unless an exception is appropriate." has been removed and "Publication of
> non-harassing private communication." has been added as a form of
> harassment...
>

Correct. I removed the first per the discussion here[1] and brought in some
of the Grants Friendly Space Expectations[2], since those seem to have been
working well.

-Frances

[1]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft#Role_of_the_document
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Friendly_space_expectations


> On 18 August 2015 at 01:10, Matthew Flaschen 
> wrote:
>
> > On 08/06/2015 08:17 PM, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> >
> >> Please participate at
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> >> .
> >>
> >
> > The draft has now been rebased onto Contributor Covenant (a widely used
> > Code of Conduct), per a discussion on our talk page.
> >
> > Now is a good time to help refine the draft to make sure previously
> > discussed issues are still addressed, and Wikimedia-specific questions
> are
> > answered.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Matt Flaschen
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Alex Monk]

It looks like "Communicate about technology in public where possible.
Private means of communication do exist, but prefer to use public places
unless an exception is appropriate." has been removed and "Publication of
non-harassing private communication." has been added as a form of
harassment...

On 18 August 2015 at 01:10, Matthew Flaschen 
wrote:

> On 08/06/2015 08:17 PM, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>
>> Please participate at
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>> .
>>
>
> The draft has now been rebased onto Contributor Covenant (a widely used
> Code of Conduct), per a discussion on our talk page.
>
> Now is a good time to help refine the draft to make sure previously
> discussed issues are still addressed, and Wikimedia-specific questions are
> answered.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/06/2015 08:17 PM, Matthew Flaschen wrote:

Please participate at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft .


The draft has now been rebased onto Contributor Covenant (a widely used 
Code of Conduct), per a discussion on our talk page.


Now is a good time to help refine the draft to make sure previously 
discussed issues are still addressed, and Wikimedia-specific questions 
are answered.


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[rupert THURNER]

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 2:28 AM, Matthew Flaschen
 wrote:
> On 08/13/2015 06:09 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>>
>> On 13 August 2015 at 22:30, rupert THURNER 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
>>> behaviour in this thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> I linked to http://kovalc.in/2015/08/12/harassers.html - perhaps that
>> doesn't count as unfriendly behaviour, or perhaps isn't in this
>> thread. It was four messages before your post in GMail, which i see
>> you are using; it's not clear to me how you missed it, but evidently
>> you did.
>
>
> I think he meant unfriendly comments in the thread itself, not the thread
> linking to unfriendly behavior elsewhere.
>

hehe, matt, i see my english is not precise enough. i precisely ment
examples you want to address with an additional code of conduct. i
could find davids mail now - i must admit i deleted it earlier because
it was only a link without describing the behaviour in the mail. now i
opened the link, read it, used google trying to find out what happend,
and am still not able to make out a relationship to code contributions
in the wikimedia space, nor to the wikimedia movement in general.
would you please add examples and let us analyze if the existing terms
of use do not suffice to address this:
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use .

best,
rupert

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Marc A. Pelletier]

On 15-08-13 08:31 PM, Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> Being a contributor does not give someone a get-out-of-jail-free card
> for bad behavior.

Sorry, I see you missed a typo:  s/does not/should not/

In practice, it very much does.  Our communities have a long history of
letting outright sociopathic behaviour slide provided you contribute
enough[1], victims be damned.

-- Marc

[1] Where "enough" is the product of actual valuable work done and
number of influential friends that you have.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Quim Gil]

Hi,

On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:30 PM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
> criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
> help.



Years ago I was among the ones that would strongly oppose to a Code of
Conduct for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread (there is proof
somewhere in the GNOME project archives). Basically, that a written policy
cannot help as much as common sense and community pressure. Since then, I
have learned several things:

* Turns out that statistically speaking my thoughts at the time fit very
well with my profile in terms of gender, age, geographical location,
ethnic/social/economic/academic background, fluency in written English,
individualism, extrovertism... This was/is the mainstream profile in free
software projects but is just one of the many profiles possible in a free
software project on a more diverse and global scale. The more we care about
growth and diversity, the more we need to care about feeling welcomed and
safe in terms different than what makes some of us feel welcomed and safe.
When discussing a CoC, we are also discussing for those that are not here
but might one day.

* I have seen very competent, productive and admirable volunteers,
professionals, and contributors combining both roles, taking a break or
leaving completely after saying to whoever wanted to listen something along
the lines of "I don't need to go through this; there are many other
interesting venues out there." If you don't know anyone perhaps it's
because you haven't been long or deep enough. When discussing a CoC, we
don't get the opinions of those that left already, but we can still
exercise our memory and reflect.

* I have learned about first time contributors and also about experienced
contributors talking about their first experiences lurking in our channels
or remembering their first impressions during their first steps in our
community. Some events that for me passed unnoticed or were normal/ok had
impressed these newcomers and had been found not normal and not ok by them.
Sometimes I would not even be sure whether a specific exchange had been
fair, understandable or not, again because communication styles and
offended feelings are very subjective, and there was no clear guideline to
check.

I still think that no piece of paper or wiki page will solve anything as
good as a solid social convention, but now I do think that in a context
like ours a wiki page can help solidifying a social convention. I also
believe that a percentage of harassment and abuse happens because of
personal bias or lack of awareness, sensitivity, or after-thought by those
creating such situations, and having such wiki page can help preventing
that percentage just by having a text written and approved by the
community. Finally, I'm also convinced that a number of offenses go
unreported and are swallowed by those suffering them just because we have
no clear guideline of how to recognize inappropriate behavior, what to do
when you see it or suffer it, and which guarantees does anyone have that a
complaint will be addressed by someone without causing more pain to the
people suffering.

So yes, even before starting to talk about the "bureaucracy" of how to
define, enforce, appeal, etc, I think a wiki page titled Code of Conduct
and approved by the Wikimedia tech community will be very useful to
acknowledge a real problem and to deal with it. It is also good to discuss
it now that it is quite peaceful, rather than in one of those stormy phases
that we allow to ourselves from time to time.

-- 
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/13/2015 04:10 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:

Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?


I am not going to call people out publically here for past incidents, 
since that's not the point of this exercise.


If you want, you can contact me privately for examples.

Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/13/2015 05:30 PM, rupert THURNER wrote:

In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
help.


Without commenting too much on Wikipedia's policies (some of them are 
necessary, some not so much), I disagree that the technical space has 
too many policies.  We also don't have any existing policy about this.



If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the person
is easily shut up.


In my experience, this is not true in our community.


If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is required.


Being a contributor does not give someone a get-out-of-jail-free card 
for bad behavior.


Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/13/2015 06:09 PM, David Gerard wrote:

On 13 August 2015 at 22:30, rupert THURNER  wrote:


Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
behaviour in this thread.



I linked to http://kovalc.in/2015/08/12/harassers.html - perhaps that
doesn't count as unfriendly behaviour, or perhaps isn't in this
thread. It was four messages before your post in GMail, which i see
you are using; it's not clear to me how you missed it, but evidently
you did.


I think he meant unfriendly comments in the thread itself, not the 
thread linking to unfriendly behavior elsewhere.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Oliver Keyes]

On 13 August 2015 at 17:37, Pine W  wrote:
> Yes, and it may be possible to have enough social support for netiquette
> without resorting to written policies and enforcement procedures. I'd like
> to think that this is true, but given examples about problematic activities
> like personal attacks, I'm not sure. Is informal social pressure combined
> with occasional admin or IRC op action enough to deal with those
> situations, or do we need something more formal?

Well, let's see. "informal social pressure" is the most we have, and
we're here having a discussion about something stronger that has
involved, so far, multiple anecdotes about the technical community
treating people poorly.

So to answer your question: no, it is not enough

Let me reiterate that demanding people who have been hurt by our
existing system justify a need to change it, not once, not twice, but
over and over with duplicated questions of exactly this form ("I mean,
maybe things will work if we don't bother writing it down"), sometimes
not just multiple times in a thread but multiple times /from the same
person/, is itself a toxic behavioural pattern.

>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Vi to  wrote:
>
>> But as a collaborative project a decent amount of netiquette is definitely
>> needed.
>>
>>
>> Vito
>>
>> 2015-08-13 23:30 GMT+02:00 rupert THURNER :
>>
>> > On Aug 13, 2015 10:16 PM, "Oliver Keyes"  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
>> > > > Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
>> > > >> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
>> > > >> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
>> > > >> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
>> > > >> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Please participate at
>> > > >>
>> >
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>> > .
>> > > >>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
>> > > >>
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>> > > >> .
>> > > >
>> > > > Hello Matt,
>> > > >
>> > > > It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
>> > > > policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably
>> be
>> > > > amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
>> > > >
>> > > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
>> > > >
>> > > > Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred
>> recently?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
>> > > behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
>> > > applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
>> > > good idea.
>> >
>> > Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
>> > behaviour in this thread.
>> >
>> > In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
>> > criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
>> > help. At the end of the day your target group is code contributors,  not
>> > policy readers. If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the
>> person
>> > is easily shut up. If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is
>> > required. What you do here is, imho, an example of an organization busy
>> > with itself. I won't be angry if you stop this thread and delete the wiki
>> > page. Let me add,  I really appreciate and find very valuable all the
>> other
>> > technical contributions and discussions. And Matt, of course I appreciate
>> > that you know what you are talking about beeing software and Wikipedia
>> > content contributor.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Rupert
>> > ___
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>> >
>> ___
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>>
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-- 
Oliver Keyes
Count Logula
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[David Gerard]

On 13 August 2015 at 22:30, rupert THURNER  wrote:

> Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
> behaviour in this thread.


I linked to http://kovalc.in/2015/08/12/harassers.html - perhaps that
doesn't count as unfriendly behaviour, or perhaps isn't in this
thread. It was four messages before your post in GMail, which i see
you are using; it's not clear to me how you missed it, but evidently
you did.


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Pine W]

Yes, and it may be possible to have enough social support for netiquette
without resorting to written policies and enforcement procedures. I'd like
to think that this is true, but given examples about problematic activities
like personal attacks, I'm not sure. Is informal social pressure combined
with occasional admin or IRC op action enough to deal with those
situations, or do we need something more formal?

Pine


On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Vi to  wrote:

> But as a collaborative project a decent amount of netiquette is definitely
> needed.
>
>
> Vito
>
> 2015-08-13 23:30 GMT+02:00 rupert THURNER :
>
> > On Aug 13, 2015 10:16 PM, "Oliver Keyes"  wrote:
> > >
> > > On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> > > > Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
> > > >> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> > > >> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> > > >> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> > > >> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
> > > >>
> > > >> Please participate at
> > > >>
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> > .
> > > >>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
> > > >>
> >
> >
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> > > >> .
> > > >
> > > > Hello Matt,
> > > >
> > > > It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
> > > > policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably
> be
> > > > amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
> > > >
> > > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
> > > >
> > > > Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred
> recently?
> > > >
> > >
> > > The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
> > > behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
> > > applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
> > > good idea.
> >
> > Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
> > behaviour in this thread.
> >
> > In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
> > criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
> > help. At the end of the day your target group is code contributors,  not
> > policy readers. If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the
> person
> > is easily shut up. If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is
> > required. What you do here is, imho, an example of an organization busy
> > with itself. I won't be angry if you stop this thread and delete the wiki
> > page. Let me add,  I really appreciate and find very valuable all the
> other
> > technical contributions and discussions. And Matt, of course I appreciate
> > that you know what you are talking about beeing software and Wikipedia
> > content contributor.
> >
> > Best,
> > Rupert
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Pine W]

Yeah, it seems to me that there's a choice here. Either have a policy with
an enforcement strategy and the social support for actually following
through with that enforcement strategy in a way that makes situations
better rather than more acrimonious, or don't have a written policy and let
nature take its course. Developing the former is a lot of work, and it's
going to be imperfect. The latter can be more chaotic and will also be
imperfect. So there's a choice of costs and benefits.

Pine


On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 2:30 PM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> On Aug 13, 2015 10:16 PM, "Oliver Keyes"  wrote:
> >
> > On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> > > Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
> > >> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> > >> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> > >> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> > >> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
> > >>
> > >> Please participate at
> > >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> .
> > >>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
> > >>
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> > >> .
> > >
> > > Hello Matt,
> > >
> > > It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
> > > policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably be
> > > amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
> > >
> > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
> > >
> > > Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?
> > >
> >
> > The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
> > behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
> > applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
> > good idea.
>
> Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
> behaviour in this thread.
>
> In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
> criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
> help. At the end of the day your target group is code contributors,  not
> policy readers. If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the person
> is easily shut up. If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is
> required. What you do here is, imho, an example of an organization busy
> with itself. I won't be angry if you stop this thread and delete the wiki
> page. Let me add,  I really appreciate and find very valuable all the other
> technical contributions and discussions. And Matt, of course I appreciate
> that you know what you are talking about beeing software and Wikipedia
> content contributor.
>
> Best,
> Rupert
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Vi to]

But as a collaborative project a decent amount of netiquette is definitely
needed.


Vito

2015-08-13 23:30 GMT+02:00 rupert THURNER :

> On Aug 13, 2015 10:16 PM, "Oliver Keyes"  wrote:
> >
> > On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> > > Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
> > >> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> > >> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> > >> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> > >> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
> > >>
> > >> Please participate at
> > >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> .
> > >>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
> > >>
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> > >> .
> > >
> > > Hello Matt,
> > >
> > > It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
> > > policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably be
> > > amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
> > >
> > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
> > >
> > > Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?
> > >
> >
> > The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
> > behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
> > applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
> > good idea.
>
> Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
> behaviour in this thread.
>
> In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
> criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
> help. At the end of the day your target group is code contributors,  not
> policy readers. If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the person
> is easily shut up. If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is
> required. What you do here is, imho, an example of an organization busy
> with itself. I won't be angry if you stop this thread and delete the wiki
> page. Let me add,  I really appreciate and find very valuable all the other
> technical contributions and discussions. And Matt, of course I appreciate
> that you know what you are talking about beeing software and Wikipedia
> content contributor.
>
> Best,
> Rupert
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[rupert THURNER]

On Aug 13, 2015 10:16 PM, "Oliver Keyes"  wrote:
>
> On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> > Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
> >> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> >> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> >> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> >> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
> >>
> >> Please participate at
> >>
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft .
> >>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
> >>
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> >> .
> >
> > Hello Matt,
> >
> > It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
> > policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably be
> > amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
> >
> > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
> >
> > Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?
> >
>
> The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
> behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
> applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
> good idea.

Oliver,  I must be a little blind but I do not see examples of unfriendly
behaviour in this thread.

In general,  Matt, I do experience that the wikimedia movement is
criticized having too many rules and policies. Add another one does not
help. At the end of the day your target group is code contributors,  not
policy readers. If somebody does not behave and not contribute,  the person
is easily shut up. If somebody contributes a lot, some diplomacy is
required. What you do here is, imho, an example of an organization busy
with itself. I won't be angry if you stop this thread and delete the wiki
page. Let me add,  I really appreciate and find very valuable all the other
technical contributions and discussions. And Matt, of course I appreciate
that you know what you are talking about beeing software and Wikipedia
content contributor.

Best,
Rupert
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Oliver Keyes]

On 13 August 2015 at 16:10, Antoine Musso  wrote:
> Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
>> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
>> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
>> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
>> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
>>
>> Please participate at
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft .
>>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
>> .
>
> Hello Matt,
>
> It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
> policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably be
> amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.
>
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy
>
> Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?
>

The thread you are replying to contains both examples of unfriendly
behaviour in a technical context and discussion over the direct
applicability of the friendly spaces policy; reviewing it may be a
good idea.

> --
> Antoine "hashar" Musso
>
>
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-- 
Oliver Keyes
Count Logula
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Antoine Musso]

Le 07/08/2015 02:17, Matthew Flaschen a écrit :
> We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
> 
> Please participate at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft .
>  Suggestions are welcome here or at
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft
> .

Hello Matt,

It seems the code of conduct is fairly similar to the friendly space
policy. Though the later was meant for conferences, it can probably be
amended to be applied to cyberspace interactions.

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy

Do we have any examples of unfriendly behaviour that occurred recently?

-- 
Antoine "hashar" Musso


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[MZMcBride]

Steven Walling wrote:
>What kind of standards for behavior we want and think are acceptable is a
>core concern of everyone in the Wikimedia and MediaWiki technical
>communities.
>
>This kind of personally-directed and demeaning feedback ("This seems to be
>a pet issue of yours") is, perhaps ironically, precisely an example of why
>it would improve interaction in technical spaces to have some clearer
>ground rules.

Clearer ground rules for what? Is this proposed code of conduct intended
to reiterate that stalking and harassment are bad or is the policy
intended to be a tool of people intent on policing civility?

From reading this mailing list and some of the talk page discussion, it
seems I wasn't the only person who found the "we" language a bit strange.

When discussing a feature request or a bug fix of almost any kind, I
generally focus on the problems and use-cases that are relevant to the
task. A code of conduct page on mediawiki.org is a particular
implementation, but there has not been sufficient discussion of what
problem(s) this proposed solution is intended to solve.

Isarra asks on the talk page "What generally comes up now as problems, how
do existing channels fail, and how will this resolve that?"

Bawolff writes "I guess, the biggest question I have along the why is it
needed lines, is why (concretely) is the friendly space policy not enough,
and what is the intended relationship between this policy and that one."

The responses to these posts has been incredibly unsatisfactory so far.

Some of the comments on the talk page such as "Why? Why wait for something
bad to happen to call it out instead of saying 'these kinds of things are
bad, don't do them here'." seem to support the notion that what we're
currently in a classic case of a solution searching for a problem.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/06/2015 08:50 PM, Pine W wrote:

A note on IRC channels: these are generally governed by Freenode with the
assistance of volunteers, and not WMF. I imagine that a WMF policy that has
community consensus would be enforced by IRC ops in Wikimedia-themed
channels. In general, I think ops are good at keeping the peace.


Yes, final enforcement mechanisms may vary depending on location.  But I 
want the initial reporting location to be the same regardless, for 
simplicity.


Matt Flaschen


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/07/2015 01:42 AM, Pine W wrote:

Hi James,

It makes sense to me to have ground-up development of guidelines, as is
happening in at least 3 venues that I know about. However, this also means
policy/guideline fragmentation.


In this case, I think a policy is more appropriate than a guideline. 
That way, no one can misunderstand and think they don't have to follow it.



Can I ask if there is any particular hurry to deploy a friendly space
policy specifically for technical spaces? My personal sense is that the
vast majority of technical discussions in most venues are civil, so I'm not
sensing a need for an exception for technical spaces that results in a
limited-scope policy being applied in advance of developing a global
friendly space policy.


I encourage people to work on a global policy (which would be more 
complicated), but I don't think there's any need for the current work to 
be delayed on that account.


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Isarra Yos]

I'm curious who all 'we' is as well.

On 07/08/15 17:29, Steven Walling wrote:

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:32 AM MZMcBride  wrote:


Matthew Flaschen wrote:

We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).

Who's we? This seems to be a pet issue of yours. I'm curious who else is
supportive of this initiative to enact a binding policy.

MZMcBride


What kind of standards for behavior we want and think are acceptable is a
core concern of everyone in the Wikimedia and MediaWiki technical
communities.

This kind of personally-directed and demeaning feedback ("This seems to be
a pet issue of yours") is, perhaps ironically, precisely an example of why
it would improve interaction in technical spaces to have some clearer
ground rules.




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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Steven Walling]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:32 AM MZMcBride  wrote:

> Matthew Flaschen wrote:
> >We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
> >spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
> >technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
> >Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).
>
> Who's we? This seems to be a pet issue of yours. I'm curious who else is
> supportive of this initiative to enact a binding policy.
>
> MZMcBride
>

What kind of standards for behavior we want and think are acceptable is a
core concern of everyone in the Wikimedia and MediaWiki technical
communities.

This kind of personally-directed and demeaning feedback ("This seems to be
a pet issue of yours") is, perhaps ironically, precisely an example of why
it would improve interaction in technical spaces to have some clearer
ground rules.


>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[MZMcBride]

Matthew Flaschen wrote:
>We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
>spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
>technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
>Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).

Who's we? This seems to be a pet issue of yours. I'm curious who else is
supportive of this initiative to enact a binding policy.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Pine W]

Hi James,

It makes sense to me to have ground-up development of guidelines, as is
happening in at least 3 venues that I know about. However, this also means
policy/guideline fragmentation. Also, AFAIK we don't have clear mechanisms
for deploying lightweight or limited-scope policies; anything with the word
"policy" in its title requires a lot of work to create or change. That's
good to a certain extent because consensus and widespread input hopefully
will improve the outcome of the policy development. On the other hand,
policy development takes time and patience.

Can I ask if there is any particular hurry to deploy a friendly space
policy specifically for technical spaces? My personal sense is that the
vast majority of technical discussions in most venues are civil, so I'm not
sensing a need for an exception for technical spaces that results in a
limited-scope policy being applied in advance of developing a global
friendly space policy.

Pine


On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:13 PM, James Alexander 
wrote:

> CA and legal are aware. While TOS or other more global polices are
> certainly an option I'm not actually sure that's the right move 'at the
> moment'. There is a lot of movement to look at options (which will include
> wide community discussion) and may lead in a direction like that but, in
> general, that is not a reason to delay implementation of processes like
> this which can, in fact, assist with the decision making and the tweaking.
> Once you've made a giant global policy tweaking it is really hard! Even
> when everyone agrees it needs it (and therefore the policy ends up being
> less and less enforced even where it should be). Yes a global policy would
> have a wide consultation or RfC type discussion before being but that's not
> the only thing we NEED here in order to get something that works. We need
> to see it in ACTION and be able to see what works and what doesn't work.
>
> James Alexander
> Community Advocacy
> Wikimedia Foundation
> (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
> > Hi Matthew. If you intend this to be binding, I suggest that you
> coordinate
> > this with other work being done by WMF Community Advocacy and Legal. My
> > hope would be to have a uniform Friendly Space Policy that is a TOS
> > amendment and applies to all Wikimedia spaces.
> >
> > A note on IRC channels: these are generally governed by Freenode with the
> > assistance of volunteers, and not WMF. I imagine that a WMF policy that
> has
> > community consensus would be enforced by IRC ops in Wikimedia-themed
> > channels. In general, I think ops are good at keeping the peace.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Pine
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[James Alexander]

CA and legal are aware. While TOS or other more global polices are
certainly an option I'm not actually sure that's the right move 'at the
moment'. There is a lot of movement to look at options (which will include
wide community discussion) and may lead in a direction like that but, in
general, that is not a reason to delay implementation of processes like
this which can, in fact, assist with the decision making and the tweaking.
Once you've made a giant global policy tweaking it is really hard! Even
when everyone agrees it needs it (and therefore the policy ends up being
less and less enforced even where it should be). Yes a global policy would
have a wide consultation or RfC type discussion before being but that's not
the only thing we NEED here in order to get something that works. We need
to see it in ACTION and be able to see what works and what doesn't work.

James Alexander
Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi Matthew. If you intend this to be binding, I suggest that you coordinate
> this with other work being done by WMF Community Advocacy and Legal. My
> hope would be to have a uniform Friendly Space Policy that is a TOS
> amendment and applies to all Wikimedia spaces.
>
> A note on IRC channels: these are generally governed by Freenode with the
> assistance of volunteers, and not WMF. I imagine that a WMF policy that has
> community consensus would be enforced by IRC ops in Wikimedia-themed
> channels. In general, I think ops are good at keeping the peace.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pine
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Pine W]

Hi Matthew. If you intend this to be binding, I suggest that you coordinate
this with other work being done by WMF Community Advocacy and Legal. My
hope would be to have a uniform Friendly Space Policy that is a TOS
amendment and applies to all Wikimedia spaces.

A note on IRC channels: these are generally governed by Freenode with the
assistance of volunteers, and not WMF. I imagine that a WMF policy that has
community consensus would be enforced by IRC ops in Wikimedia-themed
channels. In general, I think ops are good at keeping the peace.

Regards,

Pine
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

On 08/06/2015 08:17 PM, Matthew Flaschen wrote:

We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical
spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related
technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org,
Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).


I forgot to mention (but this is in the draft), it also applies to 
physical spaces, including but not limited to hackathons.


Matt Flaschen


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[Wikitech-l] Code of conduct

[Matthew Flaschen]

We're in the process of developing a code of conduct for technical 
spaces.  This will be binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related 
technical spaces (including but not limited to MediaWiki.org, 
Phabricator, Gerrit, technical IRC channels, and Etherpad).


Please participate at 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft . 
 Suggestions are welcome here or at 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft 
.


Thanks,

Matt Flaschen

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