Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Hi, yes, my comments had a broader scope than the original purpose of the thread. I'm not planning to discuss that further here. Pine On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Antoine Musso hashar+...@free.fr wrote: Le 20/05/2015 00:20, Pine W a écrit : Hmm, I'm not sure that I'd agree that everything that WMF does has a community aspect. There's been a lot of discussion about readership that to me seems primarily concerned with fundraising and only secondly concerned with recruiting new contributors and otherwise serving the community. (I'm not opposed to fundraising, I just want to clarify that community support is a step removed from the interest in readership.) There's also the open question of what to do with the millions of dollars in WMF reserves, and whether current grantmaking and affiliation policies and processes are actually hindering progress in certain areas, as we discussed a bit at the Wikimedia Conference and elsewhere; thankfully it sounds like Grantmaking is going to go through a community consultation this year, and I hope to see some rethinking of current policies and practices. Pine Hello Pine, That is largely out of the list purpose. I invite you to bring that to a different trol^H^H^H^H list or ask your question directly to WMF: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us Thanks! -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Le 20/05/2015 00:20, Pine W a écrit : Hmm, I'm not sure that I'd agree that everything that WMF does has a community aspect. There's been a lot of discussion about readership that to me seems primarily concerned with fundraising and only secondly concerned with recruiting new contributors and otherwise serving the community. (I'm not opposed to fundraising, I just want to clarify that community support is a step removed from the interest in readership.) There's also the open question of what to do with the millions of dollars in WMF reserves, and whether current grantmaking and affiliation policies and processes are actually hindering progress in certain areas, as we discussed a bit at the Wikimedia Conference and elsewhere; thankfully it sounds like Grantmaking is going to go through a community consultation this year, and I hope to see some rethinking of current policies and practices. Pine Hello Pine, That is largely out of the list purpose. I invite you to bring that to a different trol^H^H^H^H list or ask your question directly to WMF: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us Thanks! -- Antoine hashar Musso ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Perhaps we could ask Damon for clarification about the team's scope of work, although my hunch is that this is still being discussed internally. I'm boldly pinging him (: Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/19/15, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: MZ, I think we should be grateful that WMF is dedicating resources to power users, make suggestions to them on what we most want them to work on, and leave it at that. Isn't part of the criticism of this thread that the team has unclear scope? Is the WMF actually dedicating resources to power users? From where I'm sitting, it looks like the every special interest group is happy that community tech is being dedicated to them. Some people seem to think its going to be creating bots for communities that can't do it themselves, maintaining existing bots, provide technical support for grant requests, fix bug requests primarily affecting elite users fix bug requests primarily affecting unloved sister projects or even (earlier in this thread) fix uploading of large files. Community-tech is not going to fix everything for everyone. Eventually people will realize this, and its much better to be clear on the scope up front rather then have a bunch of very disappointed users later. I appreciate that the team is just getting off the ground, but presumably there is some notion of what its actually going to do, otherwise hiring for the team would be really hard. Or if it is really trying to do everything, I predict that not working out well. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Since the team doesn't even exist yet, it's probably going to be a bit nebulous for now. According to the announcements so far: The Community Tech team is focused on meeting the needs of active contributors to Wikipedia and the sister projects for improved, expert-focused curation and moderation tools. The creation of the Community Tech team is a direct outcome of requests from core contributors for improved support for moderation tools, bots, and the other features that help the Wikimedia projects succeed. The team will work closely with the community, through the Community Engagement department, to define their roadmap and deliverables. ... and ... ... This includes a Community Tech team dedicated to supporting tools for core contributors ... Kaldari On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps we could ask Damon for clarification about the team's scope of work, although my hunch is that this is still being discussed internally. I'm boldly pinging him (: Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/19/15, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: MZ, I think we should be grateful that WMF is dedicating resources to power users, make suggestions to them on what we most want them to work on, and leave it at that. Isn't part of the criticism of this thread that the team has unclear scope? Is the WMF actually dedicating resources to power users? From where I'm sitting, it looks like the every special interest group is happy that community tech is being dedicated to them. Some people seem to think its going to be creating bots for communities that can't do it themselves, maintaining existing bots, provide technical support for grant requests, fix bug requests primarily affecting elite users fix bug requests primarily affecting unloved sister projects or even (earlier in this thread) fix uploading of large files. Community-tech is not going to fix everything for everyone. Eventually people will realize this, and its much better to be clear on the scope up front rather then have a bunch of very disappointed users later. I appreciate that the team is just getting off the ground, but presumably there is some notion of what its actually going to do, otherwise hiring for the team would be really hard. Or if it is really trying to do everything, I predict that not working out well. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
MZ, I think we should be grateful that WMF is dedicating resources to power users, make suggestions to them on what we most want them to work on, and leave it at that. I'm willing to be critical of WMF when I feel that the situation calls for it. That's not the case here. Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 5:11 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Jonathan Morgan wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. Really? It's worrying that the Wikimedia Foundation would devote design and development resources towards projects that don't directly benefit 5+/month editors?* Like, for example, readers? *active Wikimedia editors mentioned on the meta page It's darkly amusing that you would translate Wikimedia community to mean users with some arbitrary number of edits per month. Yes, you are misunderstanding. I'm sorry the team fails to impress you. The community tech team is a product of the recent Engineering reorganization, and I assume our colleagues will make an announcement once the team is fully assembled. In the meantime, they're eliciting ideas. What exactly is so insulting about a new team, still in the process of being formed, eliciting ideas for projects to work on? Maybe you can explain how this new effort is different from the thousands of Phabricator Maniphest tasks at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/maniphest/ and pages such as https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CEP/Process_ideas and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wish_list? Is there really some shortage of ideas of what to work on? Can you perhaps see how it might seem a little rude to show up with a Community Tech team and start asking hey, yeah, so, uh, got any ideas for what we should be doing? Are the other technical teams really engaged in projects not focused on serving the Wikimedia community? Are we creating teams that have no clear objectives? Didn't we just do this exercise in 2014 and we actively do some version of it on a daily basis in Phabricator? I don't believe you're truly sorry that the team fails to impress me. I think you actually agree with me about the virtue of having these small teams with vague, yet potentially massive, scopes such as Community Tech and Multimedia. I think experience tells us it's very difficult for them to be effective and beneficial, but... this isn't a very technical topic, so I suppose we should move this discussion elsewhere. :-) MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Jonathan Morgan wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. Really? It's worrying that the Wikimedia Foundation would devote design and development resources towards projects that don't directly benefit 5+/month editors?* Like, for example, readers? *active Wikimedia editors mentioned on the meta page It's darkly amusing that you would translate Wikimedia community to mean users with some arbitrary number of edits per month. Yes, you are misunderstanding. I'm sorry the team fails to impress you. The community tech team is a product of the recent Engineering reorganization, and I assume our colleagues will make an announcement once the team is fully assembled. In the meantime, they're eliciting ideas. What exactly is so insulting about a new team, still in the process of being formed, eliciting ideas for projects to work on? Maybe you can explain how this new effort is different from the thousands of Phabricator Maniphest tasks at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/maniphest/ and pages such as https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CEP/Process_ideas and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wish_list? Is there really some shortage of ideas of what to work on? Can you perhaps see how it might seem a little rude to show up with a Community Tech team and start asking hey, yeah, so, uh, got any ideas for what we should be doing? Are the other technical teams really engaged in projects not focused on serving the Wikimedia community? Are we creating teams that have no clear objectives? Didn't we just do this exercise in 2014 and we actively do some version of it on a daily basis in Phabricator? I don't believe you're truly sorry that the team fails to impress me. I think you actually agree with me about the virtue of having these small teams with vague, yet potentially massive, scopes such as Community Tech and Multimedia. I think experience tells us it's very difficult for them to be effective and beneficial, but... this isn't a very technical topic, so I suppose we should move this discussion elsewhere. :-) MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
I created that page as a volunteer on personal time with my volunteer account while I was on vacation, so if you don't like the page, you should complain about me, not the Foundation. I don't work on the Community Tech team (although I have applied) and no one instructed me to make it. Nor did I ask anyone's permission or if anyone thought it was a good idea. It's a wiki. You can nominate it for deletion or create your own page with better ideas. I mainly just created the page as a place to organize my own ideas since I was excited that the Foundation was finally allocating dedicated resources to work on tools for power users (like us). I'll move it into User space if you prefer. Kaldari ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
On 5/19/15, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: MZ, I think we should be grateful that WMF is dedicating resources to power users, make suggestions to them on what we most want them to work on, and leave it at that. Isn't part of the criticism of this thread that the team has unclear scope? Is the WMF actually dedicating resources to power users? From where I'm sitting, it looks like the every special interest group is happy that community tech is being dedicated to them. Some people seem to think its going to be creating bots for communities that can't do it themselves, maintaining existing bots, provide technical support for grant requests, fix bug requests primarily affecting elite users fix bug requests primarily affecting unloved sister projects or even (earlier in this thread) fix uploading of large files. Community-tech is not going to fix everything for everyone. Eventually people will realize this, and its much better to be clear on the scope up front rather then have a bunch of very disappointed users later. I appreciate that the team is just getting off the ground, but presumably there is some notion of what its actually going to do, otherwise hiring for the team would be really hard. Or if it is really trying to do everything, I predict that not working out well. --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Moushira Elamrawy wrote: This is heads up that Kaldari has kindly started a page for community tech projects ideas: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Tech_project_ideas. Feel free to check and add your wishlist :) Hi. What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. I looked at https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Community_Tech and I can't say that I'm very impressed with what I see. Three cordoned off positions, one vacant, to serve the tens of thousands of volunteers that create and build the wiki projects and drive the Wikimedia movement forward? Clearly I'm just misunderstanding, as it would be pretty unimaginable for anyone to seemingly be this insulting. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
On Tue, 2015-05-19 at 14:34 +0200, Moushira Elamrawy wrote:
This is heads up that Kaldari has kindly started a page for community tech
projects ideas: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Tech_project_ideas.
Feel free to check and add your wishlist :)
Thanks for making us aware and for collecting that list!
Are those ideas available as tasks in Phabricator so contributors could
claim them? If so, they should get linked via the {{tracked}} template.
There is a #Possible-Tech-Projects project in Phabricator for such
tasks: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/profile/1042/
Curious if mw.org might be better than meta. There's for example
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Outreach_programs/Possible_projects
And I'm not sure why the wiki page links to an outdated old-bugzilla
query instead of Phabricator. Maybe because by number by votes is not
available in Phab [1]? I'm not convinced that votes are more important
than linking to up-to-date task information. (Before anyone bikesheds on
votes: all arguments were already exchanged ten years ago in [2].)
andre
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator/versus_Bugzilla#Votes
[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-June/017829.html
--
Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. Really? It's worrying that the Wikimedia Foundation would devote design and development resources towards projects that don't directly benefit 5+/month editors?* Like, for example, readers? I looked at https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Community_Tech and I can't say that I'm very impressed with what I see. Three cordoned off positions, one vacant, to serve the tens of thousands of volunteers that create and build the wiki projects and drive the Wikimedia movement forward? Clearly I'm just misunderstanding, as it would be pretty unimaginable for anyone to seemingly be this insulting. Yes, you are misunderstanding. I'm sorry the team fails to impress you. The community tech team is a product of the recent Engineering reorganization, and I assume our colleagues will make an announcement once the team is fully assembled. In the meantime, they're eliciting ideas. What exactly is so insulting about a new team, still in the process of being formed, eliciting ideas for projects to work on? *active Wikimedia editors mentioned on the meta page -- Jonathan T. Morgan Senior Design Researcher Wikimedia Foundation User:Jmorgan (WMF) https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jmorgan_(WMF) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure that I'd agree that everything that WMF does has a community aspect. There's been a lot of discussion about readership that to me seems primarily concerned with fundraising and only secondly concerned with recruiting new contributors I am not a big fan of taking threads off topic, but on the point of readership, supposedly readership has a wide spectrum, expanding from random users who pass by, to engaged readers, to those avid readers/random contributors who could possibly become more regular editors, even if that shift doesn't always happen by default. Point is, readership might not be an evil notion that distracts us from recruiting new contributors, it is just one step on the road. And we can of course disagree on that :). Cheers, M Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 3:11 PM, S Page sp...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Yes, everything WMF does has a community aspect (except facilities?), so it's tricky to know when to highlight it. And community is an open-ended pluralistic term, like User or Open. It's reasonable to want teams to be more specific, give them a little more time as we work through the reorg. I'm forming an Open Community Core Engagement team, dedicated to experimenting on wiki users. -- joke, I kid Peace, -- =S Page WMF Tech writer ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Yes, everything WMF does has a community aspect (except facilities?), so it's tricky to know when to highlight it. And community is an open-ended pluralistic term, like User or Open. It's reasonable to want teams to be more specific, give them a little more time as we work through the reorg. I'm forming an Open Community Core Engagement team, dedicated to experimenting on wiki users. -- joke, I kid Peace, -- =S Page WMF Tech writer ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Hmm, I'm not sure that I'd agree that everything that WMF does has a community aspect. There's been a lot of discussion about readership that to me seems primarily concerned with fundraising and only secondly concerned with recruiting new contributors and otherwise serving the community. (I'm not opposed to fundraising, I just want to clarify that community support is a step removed from the interest in readership.) There's also the open question of what to do with the millions of dollars in WMF reserves, and whether current grantmaking and affiliation policies and processes are actually hindering progress in certain areas, as we discussed a bit at the Wikimedia Conference and elsewhere; thankfully it sounds like Grantmaking is going to go through a community consultation this year, and I hope to see some rethinking of current policies and practices. Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 3:11 PM, S Page sp...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Yes, everything WMF does has a community aspect (except facilities?), so it's tricky to know when to highlight it. And community is an open-ended pluralistic term, like User or Open. It's reasonable to want teams to be more specific, give them a little more time as we work through the reorg. I'm forming an Open Community Core Engagement team, dedicated to experimenting on wiki users. -- joke, I kid Peace, -- =S Page WMF Tech writer ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Hi MZMcBride, I believe that this team is still early in its development. Lila's stated intention for it is that the team will cater to the needs and wishes of power users and administrators. There is quite a backlog of projects that this team could tackle. For example, I am frequently hearing about issues with getting large media files to upload to Commons properly, and perhaps this team could work on that problem in coordination with the multimedia team. I think that I also heard Lila say that this team will work on improving administrator tools. I agree that it would be nice to know how this team will be resourced. My understanding is that we will have a better sense of this when the next, and possibly last, WMF Annual Plan is published. HTH, Pine On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Moushira Elamrawy wrote: This is heads up that Kaldari has kindly started a page for community tech projects ideas: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Tech_project_ideas. Feel free to check and add your wishlist :) Hi. What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. I looked at https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Community_Tech and I can't say that I'm very impressed with what I see. Three cordoned off positions, one vacant, to serve the tens of thousands of volunteers that create and build the wiki projects and drive the Wikimedia movement forward? Clearly I'm just misunderstanding, as it would be pretty unimaginable for anyone to seemingly be this insulting. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Hello Many thank´s Felix El mar, 19/5/15, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com escribió: Asunto: Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas Para: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fecha: martes, 19 de mayo, 2015 09:52 Moushira Elamrawy wrote: This is heads up that Kaldari has kindly started a page for community tech projects ideas: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Tech_project_ideas. Feel free to check and add your wishlist :) Hi. What is Community Tech? How does it differ from the work the rest of the engineering and product team is doing? Are there people working for the Wikimedia Foundation who are doing design and development that is not for the Wikimedia community? That would be pretty worrying. I looked at https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors#Community_Tech and I can't say that I'm very impressed with what I see. Three cordoned off positions, one vacant, to serve the tens of thousands of volunteers that create and build the wiki projects and drive the Wikimedia movement forward? Clearly I'm just misunderstanding, as it would be pretty unimaginable for anyone to seemingly be this insulting. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas
Hi Very well Thank´s a lot Felix El mar, 19/5/15, Moushira Elamrawy melamr...@wikimedia.org escribió: Asunto: [Wikitech-l] Community project ideas Para: wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fecha: martes, 19 de mayo, 2015 08:34 Hello, This is heads up that Kaldari has kindly started a page for community tech projects ideas: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Tech_project_ideas. Feel free to check and add your wishlist :) Cheers, Moushira ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
