RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
Several things 1. Dragonwave PoE is not "standard" b/c it's virtually impossible b/c in a GigE setup, there's no "unused pairs" 2. Horizon is approximately 25% cheaper than AirPair, with a comparable entry point list price LOWER than the Orthogon / Motorola Gemini / 60 Mb Backhaul (20 Mb FLEX vs Gemini's 20 Mb FD Throughput) 3. Horizon is software upgradable from as low as 10 Mb to 350 Mb on a single FCC channel (400 Mb if you bond 2 channels together) -Charles Dragonwave Distributor --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 6:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga Not sure... but Dragonwave's PoE is not "standard" PoE... you have to purchase their expensive, proprietary cables with the radios... so if you are running a new cable, why not just run LMR400 and not ever have to worry about it again? Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: > So basically the Horizon would be the same or less and its poe > > > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:01 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga > > > > No... this was for their IDU/ODU fixed 100Mbps unit from both Trango > and Dragonwave. > > Travis > Microserv > > Gino Villarini wrote: > > That's the new dragonwave horizon pricing? > > Gino A. Villarini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 6:34 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga > > Honestly I was a little disappointed with the pricing... I thought it > would be more aggressive from the newest player on the block. For the > 100Mbps full-duplex version, it was only about 25% less than a similar > Dragonwave setup. I guess I was hoping for more like 50% less. :) > > Travis > Microserv > > Matt Liotta wrote: > > > Our Trango rep provided us with a price quote. I didn't speak to the > person directly, so I don't know if I am allowed to share or if it > was > > > > > > based on a volume commitment. I will say it is in line with what > most > people are expecting out of Trango price wise. > > -Matt > > Tom DeReggi wrote: > > > Charles, > > That statement, really depends on the price that is > relased, and the > volume the buyer is considering, as well as their time > frame. > If someone is planning on dropping 1/4-1/2 million on > Licensed gear > in a year, and the price is really good, allowing the > provider to get > > > > > > 30% more links up for the same dollar, its not much of a > risk being > the first, considering the future potential reward. If > the WISP's > timeline is also spread out over the year, they have > plenty of time > to wait for bug fixes, before the bulk of the > deployments. The > golden question right now is, what price is Trango going > to be at? > The prospective buyers are predicting a low cost entry > point, just > because Trango has Always delivered industry leading > price point, to > jump start volume adoption in the industry. However, > prior to seeing > > > > > > the price released, I'll say Dragon wave has the upper > hand, for > potentially being able to be the price leader based on > their all > outdoor design, compared to Trango's half and half > indoor/outdoor. > > I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for > me, is > clearly Trango's entry into the Licensed space. I > selected them once > > > > > > for their Superior designs, and wouldn't hesitate to do > it again, if > they follow their own suit with the initial mentality of > innovated > products, such as the 5830 product line in it's day. > > With that said... I spoke with Dragon Wave, at the IWPC > workshop this > > > > > > week. These guys get it, and is going to be a tough act > to follow. > The Dragon wave vision is to have a single management > platform and > infras
RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
>Its important to remember... There are two relevent prices to consider >Entry Cost and Full Speed Cost. Sure, let's compare apples to apples, to start: OVERALL THROUGHPUT 1. The TrangoLINK Giga requires 56 MHz of spectrum to get 311 Mb of FD throughput...the FCC doesn't allow someone to license a 56 MHz channel, so to run at this date rate, you would have to license 2 adjacent channels (2x the license cost, and at ~ $3500 / link, it's nothing to sneeze at) 2. From an entry point perspective, if you only license 1 channel to start (e.g., aren't using the data throughput), there's no way to "reserve" that adjacent channel...you have to hope / pray that in the time period that you "scale" that no one licenses your neighboring channel 3. Under Part 101, it is technically illegal to just "squat" on the frequency by grabbing that extra channel...you have to use it or you lose it 4. That said, if we're only going to use a single channel, the "Full Speed" upgrade point of the TrangoLINK Giga is 240 Mb FD, NOT 300 Mb 5. From a comparison perspective, Horizon has a max capacity of 350 Mbps FD on a single FCC channel (so it's 350 vs 240) RF PERFORMANCE 6. From a raw performance perspective, TrangoLINK Giga requires 256 QAM modulation to get 240 Mb FD...Horizon does 270 Mb FD with 128 QAM; the difference in receive sensitivity between 128 QAM to 256 QAM can be anywhere from 5-10 dB 7. High Power -- not sure about the specs of the TrangoLINK Giga, but having a High Power variant gives Horizon an extra 7 dB worth of output power...depending on the frequency, that can be almost 2' worth of antenna RELIABILITY 8. Like it or not, the probability of issues in a first revision of any hardware manufacturer's product is extremely high...Dragonwave has been producing licensed point-to-point radios for over 5 years and is on the 3rd generation of its hardware platform... 9. Trango's past 2 first "revisions" of hardware almost inevitably fails...look at their last several "new" products (I'm talking reengineered...HD Mesh is just Atlas + Mikrotik + glue, 2.4 GHz was based upon 900)...Atlas, 900 MHz...to me, it seems like it usually takes them about 1 year to get something to work properly...maybe 3rd time is the charm? That said...it's one thing to be "first" when it's only $1-2k, but $10k+ makes it a bit more painful when you've got to wait 6+ months for them to get it to work right ROADMAP 10. Dragonwave is a company that is focused exclusively and is committed to backhaul; it also has a product roadmaps for AirPair that allow for future upgradability (AirPair has a roadmap that will get it to 1 GB+ in the future) 11. Trango builds a product and a market, and then "moves on" Some food for thought -Charles Operating Manager CTI <- WISPA Paid Vendor Member & Dragonwave Distributor --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 7:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga Trango appears to have a MUCH better price point, considering upgraded to full speed. Although, I'm having difficulty getting confirmation on Dragonwave's Full capacity Best price, to be certain. Its also important to understand that there is a undisputed reliabilty advantage of having a combo indoor/outdoor model, regardless of whether an Outdoor model is mroe convenient and preferred by many WISPs. I guess I'm saying We should be comparing apples to apples, Airpair to TrangoGigalink, and not fair to compare Trango to Horizon prices because of that.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Gino Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga So basically the Horizon would be the same or less and its poe Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 7:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga No... this was for their IDU/ODU fixed 100Mbps unit from both Trango and Dragonwave. Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: That's the new dragonwave horizon pricing? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 6:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga Honestly I was a little disappointed with the pricing... I thought it would be more aggressive from the newest player on the block. For the 100Mbps full-duplex ve
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
Charles, This post of yours, is getting into the meat and potatos of what we need to know to make a fair comparison. see responses in line .the FCC doesn't allow someone to license a 56 MHz channel, so to run at this date rate, you would have to license 2 adjacent channels (2x the license cost, and at ~ $3500 / link, it's nothing to sneeze at) To be accurate, I'm not convinved licensing two channels cost double $3500. Maybe that is what You charge, but not the FCC. 3. Under Part 101, it is technically illegal to just "squat" on the frequency by grabbing that extra channel...you have to use it or you lose it Other than cost, what prevents a WISP from licensing both channels? What method of proof is required, to show need and use to the FCC, to meet legal requirement? 5. From a comparison perspective, Horizon has a max capacity of 350 Mbps FD on a single FCC channel (so it's 350 vs 240) At what penalty, to acheive 350? For hypothetical example, 350 reducing range compared to 240 with Giga link? 6. From a raw performance perspective, TrangoLINK Giga requires 256 QAM modulation to get 240 Mb FD...Horizon does 270 Mb FD with 128 QAM; the difference in receive sensitivity between 128 QAM to 256 QAM can be anywhere from 5-10 dB How is this possible, that Horizon can acheive BOTH lower modulation and smaller channel size, while maintaining higher throughput? Its hard to believe. How are they beating physics? 7. High Power -- not sure about the specs of the TrangoLINK Giga, but having a High Power variant gives Horizon an extra 7 dB worth of output power...depending on the frequency, that can be almost 2' worth of antenna Definately a plus, for those longer range links, and landlords finicky on antenna size limits. As you state, Trango's output power needs defining, to know if an advantage. 10. Dragonwave is a company that is focused exclusively and is committed to backhaul; it also has a product roadmaps for AirPair that allow for future upgradability (AirPair has a roadmap that will get it to 1 GB+ in the future) Doesn't the Trango Gigalink also have a migration path to 600mbps? With all said, the competitive analisys is not just against other Licensed manufacturers. The competition is Gigabit MW gear. Best of Class MW gear can reliably achieve 2 mile in high rain regions at 4- 9s, with 2 ft parabolics. The purpose of Licensed is to gain farther distances at capacities as close to GB as possible, and lower cost. So the challenge is how far can manufacturer's go in licensed, at Highest speeds? For apples to apples comparison, with 2 ft dishes on both ends, w/ 18Ghz, how far can we go to deliver 4- 9's reliabilty or better, at peak speed (240mbps or higher) with the various manufacturers? How many roof top leases can I by pass, to enable me to build out my backbone network in a region, using these manufacturers? What can Horizon accomplish? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
Let me try this again... Apparently it didn't go through yesterday. -Original Message- From: John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 10:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave I wanted to set the record straight on few points here... Points 1-5: It is true the that TrangoLINK-Giga utilizes 56 MHz of spectrum to achieve throughput of 300+ Mbps. 56 MHz happens to be an ETSI (European) approved channel size. In the US, users can obtain (contrary to Charles claim) single 80 MHz liceneses at the same price as 40 MHz license. Charles' claim that you need to pay for two separate licenses is not true. The TrangoLINK-Giga system provides 311+ Mbps full duplex IP connectivity with one license. 6. TrangoLINK-Giga uses 256 QAM modulation to get 311+ Mbps FD (not 240 Mbps as Charles claims) using an 80 MHz channel. Using 128QAM TrangoLINK-Giga achieves 273 Mbps with a receive sensitivity of -64. (comparable to Charles' claim about Horizon) Now, to REALLY compare apples to apples, take Horizon's (per Dragonwave's datasheet) 40 Mhz channel 256 QAM (297 Mbps with RX sens of -60.5) and compare it to Trango 40 MHz channel 256 QAM (240 Mbps with RX sens of -63.2). It is not as different as he implies. 7. Again.. Charles statement is misleading.. He is comparing the output power of the basic Horizon to the Horizon high power version and noting a 7 dB difference between them. As per the Trango datasheet, the output power of the TrangoLINK-Giga (which depends on the modulation scheme) ranges from +17 dBm to + 20 dBm.. which is comparable to the high power version of Horizon for the higher modulation modes... And considerably higher than the Horizon base model. TrangoLINK-Giga has very comparable system gain figures with the Horizon high power version (which I assume costs more). Yes, the Horizon (High Power Version) power is higher for the slower modulation modes. 8-11. TrangoLINK-Giga is indeed a new product and Trango has in place a dedicated, experienced, hard working team working dilligently to ensure a smooth launch of this exciting new product. We are keenly aware that the initial success of this product will largely depend on the trouble-free deployments and operation for all of our eager early adopters. If anyone would like more info or clarification please do not hesitate to contact me. Please note that my posting is not intended to discredit Dragonwave. Thanks and best regards, John Seaman Sales Director Trango Broadband Wireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave >Its important to remember... There are two relevent prices to consider >Entry Cost and Full Speed Cost. Sure, let's compare apples to apples, to start: OVERALL THROUGHPUT 1. The TrangoLINK Giga requires 56 MHz of spectrum to get 311 Mb of FD throughput...the FCC doesn't allow someone to license a 56 MHz channel, so to run at this date rate, you would have to license 2 adjacent channels (2x the license cost, and at ~ $3500 / link, it's nothing to sneeze at) 2. From an entry point perspective, if you only license 1 channel to start (e.g., aren't using the data throughput), there's no way to "reserve" that adjacent channel...you have to hope / pray that in the time period that you "scale" that no one licenses your neighboring channel 3. Under Part 101, it is technically illegal to just "squat" on the frequency by grabbing that extra channel...you have to use it or you lose it 4. That said, if we're only going to use a single channel, the "Full Speed" upgrade point of the TrangoLINK Giga is 240 Mb FD, NOT 300 Mb 5. From a comparison perspective, Horizon has a max capacity of 350 Mbps FD on a single FCC channel (so it's 350 vs 240) RF PERFORMANCE 6. From a raw performance perspective, TrangoLINK Giga requires 256 QAM modulation to get 240 Mb FD...Horizon does 270 Mb FD with 128 QAM; the difference in receive sensitivity between 128 QAM to 256 QAM can be anywhere from 5-10 dB 7. High Power -- not sure about the specs of the TrangoLINK Giga, but having a High Power variant gives Horizon an extra 7 dB worth of output power...depending on the frequency, that can be almost 2' worth of antenna RELIABILITY 8. Like it or not, the probability of issues in a first revision of any hardware manufacturer's product is extremely high...Dragonwave has been producing licensed point-to-point radios for over 5 years and is on the 3rd generation of its hardware platform... 9. Trango's past 2 first "revisions" of hardware almost inevitably fails...look at their last several "new" products (I'm talking reengineered...HD Mesh is just Atlas + Mikroti
RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
Hi John, Thanks for taking the time to respond...as usually, listserv emails just get typed out quickly late at night, and often are full of all sorts of mistakes...This time around, I at least took the time to review what I type once =) That said, it would be great if you'd be willing to provide some technical information about the TrangoLINK Giga, as all we have right now is a lot of "guesses" >6. TrangoLINK-Giga uses 256 QAM modulation to get 311+ Mbps FD (not 240 Mbps as Charles claims) using an 80 MHz channel. Using a 55 MHz channel...Horizon can achieve ~400 Mbps of FD capacity...what's interesting here is that although it is "technically" legal to license an 80 MHz channel under FCC 18 GHz rules, both Dragonwave & Ceragon label their "56 MHz products" under ETSI; if memory serves me correctly, there were issues and reasons why most manufacturers with experience in Part 101 don't recommend licensing 80 MHz channels, but I can't for the life of me recall, so I'm not going to push it (now 23 GHz is another matter) But back to apples to apples... TrangoLINK-Giga 256QAM in 56 MHz Channel = ~300 (as high as 311+) Mbps FD Throughput Dragonwave Horizon 256 QAM in a 56 MHz Channel = ~400 (as high as 450+) Mbps FD Throughput Now, the next question would to ask regarding throughput would be payload and architecture related Horizon is a native Ethernet radio and has a built-in GigE port...line rate, depending on ethernet frame size (e.g., 64 byte), I have seen throughput tests as high as ~450 Mbps FD on the 56 MHz channel variant (avg throughput comes out to about 400 Mbps FD) I have a few questions about the TrangoLINK-Giga 1. Is it a native Ethernet radio? Or is it Ethernet over SONET...most "OEM" manufacturers have SONET-based platforms (e.g., OC-3 / OC-6 / etc); I've seen such systems suffer due to the overhead of Ethernet to SONET packet translation issues? 2. Do you have any packet per second / packet size / throughput tests of the TrangoLINK-Giga in just a lab environment? 3. How do you support TDM ports using adaptive modulation? >Using 128QAM TrangoLINK-Giga achieves 273 Mbps with a receive sensitivity of -64. >(comparable to Charles' claim about Horizon) Now, to REALLY compare apples to apples, take Horizon's (per Dragonwave's datasheet) 40 Mhz channel 256 QAM >(297 Mbps with RX sens of -60.5) and compare it to Trango 40 MHz channel 256 QAM (240 Mbps with RX sens of -63.2). It is not as different as he implies. GigaLINK 128QAM: Rx Sens = -64 dBm GigaLINK 256QAM: Rx Sens = -63.2 dBm Something doesn't seem right about this number, a sampling of 6 other radio manufacturers making similar products average 5-8 dB in Receive Sensitivity loss when moving from 128QAM to 256QAM...Are you stating that Trango only loses 0.8 dB of Rx sensitivty when moving from 128 to 256QAM? -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
