RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Hello, As far as I know, in Canada we don`t have a domain for universities. Limiting the mailing list to .edu domain would block all Canadian Universities from contributing to those mailing list. Please take that into account if you change the rule. Christian Héroux University of Québec Montréal, Qc Canada -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Osborne, Bruce W. (NS) Sent: 14 août 2010 06:36 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder I think Rick's mention of limiting to .edu was to limit to educational institutions only. That should definitely include those in countries that use .ac.?? country code domain names for educational institutions. I have seen many noteable posts on the educause lists from .ac.?? domains. Bruce Osborne Liberty University From: Oliver Gorwits [oliver.gorw...@oucs.ox.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: Re: List Guidelines reminder -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/08/2010 18:13, Philippe Hanset wrote: Also, having vendors on the list is reciprocally beneficial. I would agree, there have been notable posts in the past from vendors either offering assistance with bugs or coming in with general technical/standards know-how. So long as it's not pushy, which it hasn't been in the couple of years I've been on this list, I'm happy. I guess the objection is that we may feel unable to rant knowing the vendor is watching, but I feel equally unable to rant anyway because the list is archived publicly and therefore the post will linger forever in Google - so it makes no difference ;-) Also +1 for the non-.edu access - we outside the U.S. appreciate being able to share in a wider Higher Education discussion than our own market, and hopefully on occasion have something to contribute! regards, oliver. - -- Oliver Gorwits, Network and Telecommunications Group, Oxford University Computing Services -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxlockACgkQ2NPq7pwWBt47qwCdG2d+XK1DiDGEeG+juOhZ3fBs hMQAoLV21JOz+ufET+GagkZUCngHxg1/ =J/vK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Vendors are nuts to auto-subscribe people from the posting on this list. I'm always leery of unsolicited communications (regardless of the medium). It's good to know that it's happening to watch for it - we can pick off the bad ones and selectively ignore the rest :) The world currently can read all our list ramblings at http://www.mail-archive.com/wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu/ I'm not sure the list should be *that* public? I'd say that vendors have always been part of our community. You have to know Devin to understand that fundamentally, his posting wasn't really commercial. He was the wireless god technie at CWNP (wireless courseware vendor) before his new employment with a hardware vendor. This list is (and should remain) very non-commercial - he probably didn't really understand this (until now :). I hope he stays on the list - from discussions off-line, it looks like he got a good lashing on this one and likely feels he received mixed-messages... Devin lives, breathes and is fully immersed in Wireless LANs. My only beef with him is that he invented terminology when he was with CWNP. Personally, the inventors of the technology should be the ones naming it! :) He probably agrees with me now. :) He is a wireless LAN encyclopedia, hope he stays... Personally, I wish I had a Devin-type contact for all the companies I deal with! Most of these very knowledgeable people get locked up and aren't allowed to talk to anyone :-) It's one of the reasons I attended the IEEE802 meetings when I was wireless-lan centric years ago - I was able to get to the key wireless engineers companies like Microsoft and others. I received very early confirmation that Microsoft would never support EAP TTLS (even if they should! :-) Communicating with vendors on this list is great, if you have a problem with product X and Y working together, and you can't get help via the regular channels, post it here and there are good chances that vendors will follow up on it. For really difficult problems, it's much better than entering at Tier 1 or 2 of a call-center tech support or escalating via sales (which is the second best way to get a serious issue resolved if your account manager knows your name...). I remember a few serious Cisco/Centrino issues years ago that received a lot of deep internal reviews at both Cisco and Intel because of postings on this list. It's a delicate balance because you want to get help without enraging companies but it's a great way to escalate. This is a great list for vendors as well (as already mentioned) - no other list can give them an insight into large scale wireless deployments (typical in EDUs). PS If my previous post sounded as it I was against startups, I am not. They drive a lot of the innovation that gets acquired by established players. We need them especially in the early days But most seasoned IT decision makers will generally go with an established vendor/solution first and then look for new/startup solutions if there is nothing (or nothing good) available. Colubris and Bluesocket are good examples of two startups that provided very valuable products in the early days of wireless LANs. Good to see Colubris technology surviving with HP. I agree that the discussions should be started and/or focussed on EDUs (regardless of the domain name used as part of someone's email address). Vendors have to be very careful in how they post or use postings...I'd say this is a good clarification of the list culture for all of the many vendors on the list! Jonn Martell On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Jeffrey Sessler j...@scrippscollege.edu wrote: What I'm tired of is being subscribed to vendor communications shortly after I post here. I'll unsubscribe, and then after a new post/reply, I'm suddenly added to their marketing lists again. It tells me that while vendors may not be posting here, they are mining the lists for email contacts. Jeff Peter P Morrissey 08/12/10 9:57 AM Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
I'm going to address this kind of concern with Educause (I noticed the same). Philippe On Aug 12, 2010, at 11:06 PM, Patrick Goggins wrote: Agreed, most are one-time communications but every once and awhile there will be repeated additions to their spam lists which require some further remediation. ~Patrick From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sessler [j...@scrippscollege.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:26 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder What I'm tired of is being subscribed to vendor communications shortly after I post here. I'll unsubscribe, and then after a new post/reply, I'm suddenly added to their marketing lists again. It tells me that while vendors may not be posting here, they are mining the lists for email contacts. Jeff Peter P Morrissey 08/12/10 9:57 AM Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
I totally see your point. We walk a fine line with the AHECTA listserv as well. So my compromise would be that it would be okay for a vendor to solicit opinion but that all replies to the vendor should be off list. The problem with that however is even in this day and age of technology, people still don't read and pay attention, and will automatically reply without paying attention to who it's going to. Of course, if they are a member of an association they have access to the member list and contact info and should be able to send targeted email to those members outside of the listserv. If the listserv is not maintained by an association then I don't know if the vendors have access to the listserv members. They can obviously mine addresses from the list over time. I think the case here is that Devin saw the honest dialog about Meraki, and wanted to know what those that have seen or used his products thought about them. Rick Philippe Hanset wrote: Rick, Where does this stop? If one vendor solicits a honest opinion on the list, all vendors could. A slippery slope that could potentially destroy the original intent of the list (not mentioning the undesirable SPAM). The original purpose of the list is to share knowledge between educational institutions about WLANs. Educause accepts commercial lurkers and neutral technology contributions from vendors. So far it has served both communities fairly well. A lot of subscribers to this list do not even want commercial entities lurking. We have been able to maintain a decent equilibrium for almost 10 years: Nov 13, 2000 is when the listwas moved from University of Tennessee to Educause http://listserv.educause.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A1=ind0011L=WIRELESS-LAN Regards, Philippe Hanset -- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12/08/2010 18:13, Philippe Hanset wrote: Also, having vendors on the list is reciprocally beneficial. I would agree, there have been notable posts in the past from vendors either offering assistance with bugs or coming in with general technical/standards know-how. So long as it's not pushy, which it hasn't been in the couple of years I've been on this list, I'm happy. I guess the objection is that we may feel unable to rant knowing the vendor is watching, but I feel equally unable to rant anyway because the list is archived publicly and therefore the post will linger forever in Google - so it makes no difference ;-) Also +1 for the non-.edu access - we outside the U.S. appreciate being able to share in a wider Higher Education discussion than our own market, and hopefully on occasion have something to contribute! regards, oliver. - -- Oliver Gorwits, Network and Telecommunications Group, Oxford University Computing Services -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxlockACgkQ2NPq7pwWBt47qwCdG2d+XK1DiDGEeG+juOhZ3fBs hMQAoLV21JOz+ufET+GagkZUCngHxg1/ =J/vK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Pete, Educause has been debating on and off about letting commercial entities on the list. Let's face it, having an edu email is not really hard to get, so the filtering could be a real hassle. Also, having vendors on the list is reciprocally beneficial. Some of our discussions can help vendors understand our edu challenges and adapt products accordingly. The list is a good statistical sampling. We have had vendors providing technology neutral answers to some questions, which helped us greatly. If vendors are contacting you directly after you post, please let me know immediately. Best, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader On Aug 12, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Peter P Morrissey wrote: Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
As someone who works in A UK (Scottish) University I have a .ac.Ku address rather than a .edu and would hope I occasionally contribute something of value. (I certainly find some of the posts extremely interesting.) This email has been sent from a mobile phone, please excuse any creative spelling or grammar that may have occured! On 12 Aug 2010, at 18:14, Philippe Hanset phan...@utk.edu wrote: Pete, Educause has been debating on and off about letting commercial entities on the list. Let's face it, having an edu email is not really hard to get, so the filtering could be a real hassle. Also, having vendors on the list is reciprocally beneficial. Some of our discussions can help vendors understand our edu challenges and adapt products accordingly. The list is a good statistical sampling. We have had vendors providing technology neutral answers to some questions, which helped us greatly. If vendors are contacting you directly after you post, please let me know immediately. Best, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader On Aug 12, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Peter P Morrissey wrote: Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity registered under charity number SC000278. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Shouldn't it be okay for a vendor to solicit both positive and negative comments on their own equipment? If you'll reread the post, Devin was asking for comments about his own companies equipment. Seems if a vendor is willing to let the dirty laundry out concerning their own stuff it should be perfectly fine. If that is a problem then vendors shouldn't even be on the list. Just my $.02 worth. Rick Philippe Hanset wrote: All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Rick, Where does this stop? If one vendor solicits a honest opinion on the list, all vendors could. A slippery slope that could potentially destroy the original intent of the list (not mentioning the undesirable SPAM). The original purpose of the list is to share knowledge between educational institutions about WLANs. Educause accepts commercial lurkers and neutral technology contributions from vendors. So far it has served both communities fairly well. A lot of subscribers to this list do not even want commercial entities lurking. We have been able to maintain a decent equilibrium for almost 10 years: Nov 13, 2000 is when the list was moved from University of Tennessee to Educause http://listserv.educause.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A1=ind0011L=WIRELESS-LAN Regards, Philippe Hanset On Aug 12, 2010, at 4:12 PM, Rick Brown wrote: Shouldn't it be okay for a vendor to solicit both positive and negative comments on their own equipment? If you'll reread the post, Devin was asking for comments about his own companies equipment. Seems if a vendor is willing to let the dirty laundry out concerning their own stuff it should be perfectly fine. If that is a problem then vendors shouldn't even be on the list. Just my $.02 worth. Rick Philippe Hanset wrote: All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- sig6.gif ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
What I'm tired of is being subscribed to vendor communications shortly after I post here. I'll unsubscribe, and then after a new post/reply, I'm suddenly added to their marketing lists again. It tells me that while vendors may not be posting here, they are mining the lists for email contacts. Jeff Peter P Morrissey 08/12/10 9:57 AM Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder
Agreed, most are one-time communications but every once and awhile there will be repeated additions to their spam lists which require some further remediation. ~Patrick From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sessler [j...@scrippscollege.edu] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:26 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder What I'm tired of is being subscribed to vendor communications shortly after I post here. I'll unsubscribe, and then after a new post/reply, I'm suddenly added to their marketing lists again. It tells me that while vendors may not be posting here, they are mining the lists for email contacts. Jeff Peter P Morrissey 08/12/10 9:57 AM Thank you Philippe! I'm surprised we even let vendors on the list. Have we ever considered limiting it to .edu's? Pete M. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:55 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] List Guidelines reminder All, Having education affiliated people asking questions about vendors on the list is part of the purpose of this medium. Having vendors doing the same is not. please read the guidelines of the listserv at: http://www.educause.edu/Community/ConstituentandDiscussionGroups/ConstituentandDiscussionGroupP/892 Thank you for your understanding. Regards, Philippe Hanset Wireless-LAN Constituent Group leader ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
